Calibretto: The reason an empirical fact is not 100% certain is because our senses can't be absolutely trusted. There is always that possibility that everything is just a conglomeration of sensory phenomena, and none of it really is what we think it is. This is the basic dilemma of epistemology.
It's not some whacko theory that Stan and I and a few others are playing around with; that's just philosophy. In everyday life, it's just so practical to assume our senses are always correct that we don't even think about it. Which is fine, in normal life, because like I said, it's a practical, pragmatic assumption to make. But you still have to make that assumption.
i understand what you're saying, but i still disagree. if a fact were an assumption it would be called a theory. and i don't know about you but i tend to trust my senses fairly well. like i said above, a lot of things are possible, even if the are not probable, but this... this is not possible. it may be philosophy, it may be a complete believe structure followed by thousands of people, but i disagree w/ it 100%. there's no way, what so ever that this is true. if epistemology were a fact then wouldn't epistemology disprove itself? because you could never be 100% sure of what you believe being true. that would drive a man insane.
i don't remember discussing the "possibility" of heaven and hell existing. this will probably make you all very happy: i definitely believe that there is a possiblity that heaven and hell might exist. i think i even stated that in an earlier post. aliens may exist. as far as i know they don't, but the universe is infinitely big so it's kind of hard to think it's not a possibility. but i wouldn't say i definitely believe they do, in fact, exist because it's yet to be proven as fact.
Because you keep saying "that makes no sense that makes no sense." If you actually read about philosophy, it would, perhaps, make sense to your brain. I didn't paste that link to "convert" you, I pasted that link to help you make sense out of some basic philosophical concepts, whether you end up agreeing with them or not.
If you end up going to college, you're probably going to take an "Introduction to Philosophy" course. If that's the case, you're going to have to learn about these concepts eventually.
actually i've been to college and am currently attending and i've yet to take an intro to philosophy course. and on top of that i'll graduate in may of next year. so i doubt that i'll ever take one.
and i understand that you were trying to help me understand what you are saying. and i get that this is actually a philosophical belief, but i think i've read enough based on what you've said here on these forums to form an opinion on whether or not i agree w/ it.
Calibretto, I'm not even talking about Christianity right now. I'm not even talking about theism. This is basic, secular philosophy. That wasn't a Christian or theistic link at all.
i'm not a total idiot. i can read. i know you weren't talking about christianity, i was just comparing your link to information on something you believe w/ one that i might show you w/ information on something i believe.
How can you ever hope to gain an understanding of these things if you simply refuse to read about them, hiding under the baby-blanket of "let's just agree to disagree"? That's no way to improve yourself, that's just a way of being intellectually lazy.
being intelectually lazy? no. but i have no desire to read about facts not actually being facts but only assumptions. again i say, that makes no sense. and how can you claim that by reading that i will further improve myself. that'd be like me giving you an atheism pamphlet and saying that if you want to improve yourself you'll read it. like i've said before, belief structures differ from person to person. it's all an opinion. i do not believe what you're telling me, especially when it comes to facts not actually being provable. i'm not hiding under a baby-blanket of "agreeing to disagree." but it's as if what you want to hear from me is, "holy crap! you're right!" and you're not going to get that. i accept what you believe for what it is: a different belief from mine. now if you would like to improve yourself, do us all a favor and accept someone else's beliefs besides your own.
ok, dude, seriously... i like my summary of the picture better. thanks for the wiki link, but i'm not interested. i'm not going to give you an atheism link and invite you over to my side. i'm arguing my point and you're arguing yours which is all fine and dandy, but at some point it's gotta stop. can you not just accept that i believe differently than you, yet i'm not wrong? i accepted that long long ago. living where i do, i deal w/ close minded people everyday. i'm not close minded, i'm actually very very open minded. epsecially when it comes to religion. but when i have people telling me that facts aren't facts and cannot be proven and i'm just assuming they are true, that's when i draw the line at my being open minded. i'm not saying it makes no sense because of my human brain and i'm not going to think all of this through. ever. we can't prove each other wrong. i have respect for you belief in christianity and you have no respect for anyone who believes differently from you. end of story.
Calibretto: facts are not absolutely certain. Nothing that is based on observation is absolutely certain.
oh my god, are you serious? that makes absolutely no sense at all. none whatsoever. a fact is a fact is a fact. facts can be proven. once proven, theory becomes fact. i'm not assuming anything, i know because it's fact.
Quote from Einsteinmonkey »
I don't think you're getting the point at all
no i'm not, nor do i think i want to when i have people telling me that facts are merely assumptions. and besides, why you try to break faith down into the reasons why people have faith? i understand why people have faith.
Quote from Einsteinmonkey »
Can you see that everything we know is, at the most basic level, contingent on our own perceptions? I perceive that I am sitting here at this computer typing out this response.
yes, i do see that. which is exactly why i "know" that heaven and hell do not exist. and why i know that if i drop something it will fall. because that's what i've perceived in my lifetime. i also know that something will fall if i drop it based on the proven existance of gravity on earth.
Quote from extremestan »
I'd be double-sarnath'd if I specifically addressed this, please consult the previous two posts.
I also think it's time for a classic image from MiseTings (even though it's a bit harsh, as MT jabs tend to be):
that was a little uncalled for, but almost what i'd expect. "you don't believe the way i do, therefore you are wrong." that about sums that image up in one sentence, right?
Like I said...1 person is really no problem. It is when crowds start forming that it is an issue. Wallmart is a little more wide open than your local card shops front entrance so the crowd tends to disperse more mind you.
good point. i see what you're saying now. i would imagine that it would be annoying to have to walk through a cloud of smoke to just exit or enter your local shop.
First, no, you're not absolutely sure that if you drop something it will fall down. You believe it based on past experience. It just so happens that every time you've dropped an object, it's fallen to the ground. Going back to the marketplace analogy, "objects conforming to gravity" is like Joel's boxes. Every time so far, Joel has sold you a valuable box. Does that automatically mean that he will always sell you a valuable box? You assume that it will work again and again because repetitive consistency is what neural networks depend on. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that's philosophy for you. We're always in a realm of doubt and only practical certainty.
if isaac newton could hear you now. the more i have this conversation w/ you the more it seems to me that you base everything on "faith." you have "faith" that if you dropped something it will fall based on what has happened to you every other time you've dropped something. i know for a fact that if i drop something it will fall. not only because every other time i've dropped something it has fallen, but because isaac newton proved that gravity exists. and it's because of this that it's a fact that no matter how many times you drop something it will fall. i don't just "believe" this, i know it. unlike the argument of the existance of heaven and hell, it's been proven.
Second, you missed the "peeking" part of my marketplace analogy. That part is not based on faith in testimonial evidence... it's merely based on faith in your eyesight and faith in your mental ability to correctly process what you apparently saw. The whole point of my analogy was a culmination into the two contributory categories of evidence for God and his teachings: the letters/people (i) and the peek (ii). Your responses indicate to me that you ignored the stuff about (ii).
i actually did see the "peeking" part of your analogy. it's just that i've never had a 'peek' at heaven or god to prove to me that they exist. as far as i know, no one else has either, so i don't see how this helps your argument.
Quote from Einsteinmonkey »
Here it is. It helps illustrate the point of degrees of certainty.
(And see stan's post.)
i know what faith is. i don't need it broken down.
and is there even a need to debate why we call things what we do? such as hot, or cold, or red or yellow? hot and cold can both be defined w/o using themselves. hot = high temperature, cold = low temperature. now, it's definitely a matter of opinion at times on what's hot to one person and cold to the next. i'm not dismissing anything that any of you guys are saying. i do appreciate the time you take to type out these elaborate explanations and analogies. i just don't agree w/ them. i don't understand why you guys can't just say what i'm saying, "i see your point, i just don't agree w/ it."
ok, this is getting to be ridiculous. it's a proven scientific fact called gravity. i am not practically sure of this, i'm absolutely positively sure that if i drop something it will fall down. everything you listed are proven facts. china does, in fact, exist. you need nourishment to live. what i'm saying is there is no factual evidence of the existance of heaven and hell and that's why i can't have 'faith' in it's existance.
You asked, "Outside of faith alone, what reason do i have to actually believe that they exist?" I answered that question.
not really. your 'boxes in a marketplace' analogy is still based on faith and what everyone else has told you. there's no fact. going back to your china analogy, it's a proven fact that china exists. but outside of faith and the bible and listening to other christians, there is no proof of heaven or hell. it's not a fact. so even if a bunch of other people who believe in it tell me it's real, i still have nothing to base my belief in it on except for faith. just because someone tells you something doesn't make it true. show me facts. that's what i was asking you for.
as a smoker i don't really understand the whole not being able to smoke outside of a business sort of thing. hospital's i understand. but there's a wal-mart here that you can't smoke until you get to the actual parking lot. and i don't think you're even supposed to smoke there. i understand the seond hand smoke dangers and how it's ok if i wanna do it to myself, but other people may not want to deal w/ it, but i was under the impression that outside is fair game. i mean... it's outside afterall. as long as i don't stand outside and purposely blow my smoke into someone else's face, i don't see how it's a problem.
You know, I wrote out that whole thing so that it would be read with genuineness and an attempt at common understanding. This dismissive and disingenuous attitude is what made me initially want to stop talking with you. I'll go ahead and stop then.
whoa, dude. i wasn't trying to offend you. and i wasn't trying to be dismissive at all. i'm actually really sorry if i came off that way. what i'm trying to get across to you is that you are not going to convince me that i'm wrong. religion is not a matter of fact, it's a matter a faith. this is simply a difference of opinion. you believe one way and i believe another. and i even said exactly that before you went and typed out your attempt at common understanding. look, the fact of the matter here is, growing up in bible belt, i've had several "religious experiences" in my day. i've been surrounded by it from day one. i've been to church, i've read parts of the bible, i've talked to preachers and friend's who are christian. and still i can't make myself believe that god is up there watching down on me from heaven. i've got plenty of friends who do believe and i've got friends who agree w/ me. i very much enjoy talking about religion and beliefs and what you believe and what i believe, but i don't like people telling me that i'm wrong. that's a close minded attitude. "what i believe is right and what everyone else believe's is wrong." what kind of attitude is that to have, really? i'm open to everyone else's beliefs. more power to you for being a fan of christianity and everything that comes w/ it, but i'm not. and i don't see why you keep insisting on trying to prove me wrong.
thanks for the info, metaller. i may end up finally breaking down and getting it w/ some of my xmas money this year. i really, really enjoyed the vhs tapes my friend let me borrow. some other anime's that i've also enjoyed are: vampire hunter d, ghost in the shell, appleseed, ninja scroll, and bubblegum crisis. i haven't had a chance to check the sequel to vampire hunter d, or any of the other ghost in the shell flicks, but i'd really like to. i've never been a real big anime buff, but some stuff i've seen is just amazing. oh and while i'm on the subject of anime i must say that i don't really get the whole dragon ball z thing. i have friends who love that stuff but i just think it's awful and very overrated. eh... just an opinion i guess.
oh yeah, i noticed. it's crazy how it's come so far. i mean, it's awesome, but it's like a completely different deck. yet it's almost exactly the same. i really like most of the new versions just as good as i like the originals from the days of yore.
wow, dude... you really think out these analogies, don't you? first it's "china two years ago," and now it's "boxes in a marketplace." ok, here's the deal: i understand why christians believe the way they do. as i said before, my grandfather was a southern baptist preacher. so i'm not trying to argue w/ you. i'm not going to, nor am i even trying to, convince you that heaven and hell do not exist. i'm not saying you're wrong and i'm right. what i'm saying is you have your beliefs and i have mine. it's just a difference of opinion, there is no right or wrong here.
i understand what you're saying, but i still disagree. if a fact were an assumption it would be called a theory. and i don't know about you but i tend to trust my senses fairly well. like i said above, a lot of things are possible, even if the are not probable, but this... this is not possible. it may be philosophy, it may be a complete believe structure followed by thousands of people, but i disagree w/ it 100%. there's no way, what so ever that this is true. if epistemology were a fact then wouldn't epistemology disprove itself? because you could never be 100% sure of what you believe being true. that would drive a man insane.
calibretto
calibretto
actually i've been to college and am currently attending and i've yet to take an intro to philosophy course. and on top of that i'll graduate in may of next year. so i doubt that i'll ever take one.
and i understand that you were trying to help me understand what you are saying. and i get that this is actually a philosophical belief, but i think i've read enough based on what you've said here on these forums to form an opinion on whether or not i agree w/ it.
calibretto
i'm not a total idiot. i can read. i know you weren't talking about christianity, i was just comparing your link to information on something you believe w/ one that i might show you w/ information on something i believe.
being intelectually lazy? no. but i have no desire to read about facts not actually being facts but only assumptions. again i say, that makes no sense. and how can you claim that by reading that i will further improve myself. that'd be like me giving you an atheism pamphlet and saying that if you want to improve yourself you'll read it. like i've said before, belief structures differ from person to person. it's all an opinion. i do not believe what you're telling me, especially when it comes to facts not actually being provable. i'm not hiding under a baby-blanket of "agreeing to disagree." but it's as if what you want to hear from me is, "holy crap! you're right!" and you're not going to get that. i accept what you believe for what it is: a different belief from mine. now if you would like to improve yourself, do us all a favor and accept someone else's beliefs besides your own.
calibretto
calibretto
oh my god, are you serious? that makes absolutely no sense at all. none whatsoever. a fact is a fact is a fact. facts can be proven. once proven, theory becomes fact. i'm not assuming anything, i know because it's fact.
no i'm not, nor do i think i want to when i have people telling me that facts are merely assumptions. and besides, why you try to break faith down into the reasons why people have faith? i understand why people have faith.
yes, i do see that. which is exactly why i "know" that heaven and hell do not exist. and why i know that if i drop something it will fall. because that's what i've perceived in my lifetime. i also know that something will fall if i drop it based on the proven existance of gravity on earth.
that was a little uncalled for, but almost what i'd expect. "you don't believe the way i do, therefore you are wrong." that about sums that image up in one sentence, right?
calibretto
good point. i see what you're saying now. i would imagine that it would be annoying to have to walk through a cloud of smoke to just exit or enter your local shop.
calibretto
if isaac newton could hear you now. the more i have this conversation w/ you the more it seems to me that you base everything on "faith." you have "faith" that if you dropped something it will fall based on what has happened to you every other time you've dropped something. i know for a fact that if i drop something it will fall. not only because every other time i've dropped something it has fallen, but because isaac newton proved that gravity exists. and it's because of this that it's a fact that no matter how many times you drop something it will fall. i don't just "believe" this, i know it. unlike the argument of the existance of heaven and hell, it's been proven.
i actually did see the "peeking" part of your analogy. it's just that i've never had a 'peek' at heaven or god to prove to me that they exist. as far as i know, no one else has either, so i don't see how this helps your argument.
i know what faith is. i don't need it broken down.
and is there even a need to debate why we call things what we do? such as hot, or cold, or red or yellow? hot and cold can both be defined w/o using themselves. hot = high temperature, cold = low temperature. now, it's definitely a matter of opinion at times on what's hot to one person and cold to the next. i'm not dismissing anything that any of you guys are saying. i do appreciate the time you take to type out these elaborate explanations and analogies. i just don't agree w/ them. i don't understand why you guys can't just say what i'm saying, "i see your point, i just don't agree w/ it."
calibretto
calibretto
not really. your 'boxes in a marketplace' analogy is still based on faith and what everyone else has told you. there's no fact. going back to your china analogy, it's a proven fact that china exists. but outside of faith and the bible and listening to other christians, there is no proof of heaven or hell. it's not a fact. so even if a bunch of other people who believe in it tell me it's real, i still have nothing to base my belief in it on except for faith. just because someone tells you something doesn't make it true. show me facts. that's what i was asking you for.
calibretto
calibretto
whoa, dude. i wasn't trying to offend you. and i wasn't trying to be dismissive at all. i'm actually really sorry if i came off that way. what i'm trying to get across to you is that you are not going to convince me that i'm wrong. religion is not a matter of fact, it's a matter a faith. this is simply a difference of opinion. you believe one way and i believe another. and i even said exactly that before you went and typed out your attempt at common understanding. look, the fact of the matter here is, growing up in bible belt, i've had several "religious experiences" in my day. i've been surrounded by it from day one. i've been to church, i've read parts of the bible, i've talked to preachers and friend's who are christian. and still i can't make myself believe that god is up there watching down on me from heaven. i've got plenty of friends who do believe and i've got friends who agree w/ me. i very much enjoy talking about religion and beliefs and what you believe and what i believe, but i don't like people telling me that i'm wrong. that's a close minded attitude. "what i believe is right and what everyone else believe's is wrong." what kind of attitude is that to have, really? i'm open to everyone else's beliefs. more power to you for being a fan of christianity and everything that comes w/ it, but i'm not. and i don't see why you keep insisting on trying to prove me wrong.
calibretto
calibretto
calibretto