Guys, if you want more Legacy tournaments, do what I've been doing.
Round up support from other players and bug your local store owner.
what if you're like me and my friends, and your local store owner is a total... well, you get the picture. we hardly ever even go to FNM because of him and because there's just not any good players. technically i don't even have a 'local' store owner, considering that the closest place to play FNM, let alone legacy, is about 45-50 miles away.
we don't like to go all the way up there to play FNM, number 1, because it's located in a mall so the tourney must be done by 9pm. number 2, FNM is always type 2 so that's not really all that cool. every now and then type 2 is cool, but not every week. and even then, he has tourney's on saturday's but they're always type 2 and he sucks, so that's that.
What I ment to say was two turns of a player losing both a Nonbasic as well as a critter which means that this would ruin some other decks. And yeah I would just sac a Birds and then sac a mox or whatever. They would lose four permanents and I would lose two or they sac 6-5 and I sac three including braids. And yeah I know 4cc is the roof of the deck but I just wanted to start some discussions.
you definitely started discussions. my friend and i discussed it after i read your post for about 15 minutes or so. he agrees w/ you. and i kinda see it, but i don't know. he said he'd play braids turn 2 if he had the chance. but i don't see it. i feel like it would hinder me as much as it hinders my opponent. the way i see it, comboed w/ flow, it could be worse on the opponent than it is on me. i guess maybe it could work, but i think i'd have to see it in action to get the full effect.
oh, i definitely agree that mom rocks. my cousin plays her in his mono white build. she's good. i've played her before and i hate sitting across the table from her. but i just don't see that she's needed. and even then i wouldn't know what to take out of my build to run her. probably the tithe if i got search lands. if i had room for her, i'd run her on principle, but i just don't think she's a necessity. maybe after i test against goblins tomorrow i'll see that she's needed.
I was actually thinking of something similar except Destructive Flow + Braids= scoop for most decks so I was thinking it could fit in at some point not tomention it won't hurt that much and besides, the deck would finish off a control deck or agro with that combo if you could go turn one Bob into a T2 Flow and T3 Braids. Follow that with anything else and it would be golden. But hey I wouldn't short the idea of including something like Molten Rain or the like but Braids just seems like such a perfect fit for the deck.
i don't know about braids in the deck. especially not if you plan on dropping her that early in the game. i think she would hurt the opponent after a turn2 flow, but she could possibly hurt you too. after you drop the braids, you sac a bird and hope u can play a guy. and then what? what do you sac next? you're left w/ flow, braids, guy, and three-four lands. this deck almost needs four lands to operate comfortably. you wouldn't want to sac your guy, and if you end up saccing braids two turns after bringing her out, doesn't that defeat the purpose? i don't know... i just don't see that she is that needed. late game, maybe, but i don't think i'd ever drop her that early.
to be honest, i don't think mother of runes is needed. she's good, but i think she's too defensive. maybe it's just my playstyle but i like to swing in. if i have mom in play i feel inclined to keep her untapped to protect my guys. but she is good, i think she's just a personal choice. w/ her i don't think you need the bodyguard. jotun grunt is fat and his drawback isn't that bad, so i say he's worth testing. and i was actually thinking of running knight of the holy nimbus over river boa in my build. nimbus is very hard to get rid of and the boa is mana intesive requiring me to keep a green constantly open. i guess only time and testing will tell which is the better choice. i'll get to play my build vs goblins and some other legacy decks tomorrow. i'll let u know how it goes.
i think that wasteland is one of those cards that's powerful, but i don't see that it could be banned. it gives decks that wouldn't normally have any sort of board control and way to do so. to me it's like gush (which is banned). it's a great card by itself and can be manipulated w/ other cards to be almost broken. the key word there being almost. it's just an excellent card, that imo, adds to the fun of the game.
my opinion on making legacy a better format doesn't rely on banned lists. i mean, personally i don't understand why cards as powerful as lackey and reset are still around, while a card that is really good, but nowhere near as broken as lackey, like gush is banned. that doesn't make sense to me.
i think that legacy just needs to be made into a more popular format. honestly, i don't like the idea that FNM is strictly type 2. i understand that most of the players that are playing FNM are only playing FNM and aren't really playing competitively. odds are they probably only have the cards that are t2 legal. but, imo, FNM gets old because it's always the same format which means you always see the same decks.
and i agree w/ the statement above that some of the FNM promos should be legacy staples. probably not lackey or something, but maybe a shiny dark ritual or lightning bolt. that would be pretty cool.
i don't know... i just think that if the legacy format were played locally on a weekly or even monthly basis it would gain more popularity. and even then it doesn't necessarily have to be played at FNM. heck, leave FNM alone and encourage local shops to run saturday or sunday legacy tournaments. in my area it's pretty much constantly a type 2 metagame. for example the closest and soonest legacy tournament i'm going to be playing in is about 70 miles or so away and doesn't occur for a little over a month from now. imo, that's ridiculous. the distance i can understand, because not everyone is blessed w/ living in an area that has a "local" shop. but only playing legacy every few months does nothing to help it's popularity.
now i know that anyone who looks at this list and is a halfway decent magic player is gonna say "take out tithe for fetch lands and add umezawa's jitte," but fetch lands and jitte are expensive and i think this deck could work w/o them. a cloaked soltari priest coming at you, tends to make things a bit difficult on your side of the table.
goblins may still give this deck trouble, tho. it would definitely require some testing and maybe some fine tuning, since there aren't that many answers for a first turn goblin lackey or aether vial.
i think you post a very valid point, hellfire. i don't personally want to run jitte in my deck, but it think that running it and the first strike guys gives your deck a personal touch. i still don't really like the stone throwing devil's tho. i think there are just better 1-drops out there. the first strike may be good, but think his tiny p/t says, "i die to fanatic/sharpshooter."
Looks pretty good, but why Stone-throwing Devils? I get that you're focusing a little more on disruption and a little less on being suicidal, hence no Negator, but why are you using this over the other one-drops of choice?
as he said above, he's using the first strike guys because of jitte. but even then i don't like them. jitte is an awesome card, but i don't think it's needed in sui black. i think that slot could be filled up by something else. better beats, perhaps.
I took sui black in a different direction personally. I'm posting this to maybe give you a better idea and maybe even spawn some ispiration. Anyways this deck comes from the classic Sui Black variant tweaked to my doing. I personally think it performs better than classic Sui Black
i think your deck looks decent. i actually ran black knight in my original build way back in the day. so long ago, in fact, that dark rit was legal in standard. anyway, although black knight is good he doesn't have enough evasion and there's just better creatures out there. the same could be said for stone throwing devils. if nothing else they could easily be replaced w/ sarcomancy. same mana cost and i'll take and extra point of p/t over first strike anyday. especially if the first striker is only 1/1.
and avatar of kokusho, you are absolutely 100% correct. confinement stops me dead in my tracks. but outside of dystopia i don't really know how to stop it. is dystopia the only way? i could always change up my s/b a bit. i guess i really need a way to get past it, otherwise a confinement on the table spells auto loss for me.
Dystopia IS savage against Threshold, providing you don't do what I did and drop two at once.:D
Terror is yucky- Smother is so much better in the format, has the same casting cost, and has much cooler artwork.
As for the rest, in a deck like this, maximizing power andtoughness for the least possible mana cost tends to be a good thing. I'm not trying to turn your deck into Red Death, but Rotting Giant is amazing.
smother having cooler artwork than terror is just a matter of opinion. i happen to like the artwork on terror a bit better. not much, but a bit. anyway... i'll probably try running smother over terror just to see if i like it better. or if it makes a difference at all. like i said before, i'm open to suggestions.
in regards to running rotting giant or hyppie... i initially had two giant's in main, but took them out in favor of the plague. to be honest i didn't really like him. at 1B for a 3/3 he's good, but not great. there were several times that i couldn't attack w/ him for lack of cards in the 'yard. and honestly i don't know what i'd possibly think about taking out to put him in. i wouldn't take out slayer because of his evasion. pretty much he's dealing two a turn. i already dropped 1 skirge for a confidant. 2 may be enough, but BB for 3/2 flyer is pretty good. the fact that i can't drop creatures after him isn't really a drawback because w/ a 3/2 flyer in play, my opponent almost has to deal w/ him or end up taking 3 - or maybe even 5 when combined w/ slayer - a turn. so with that said i could fit 1 in. creature kill or scrolls don't come out for him, dark rit doesn't come out for him, plagues don't come out for him (if they come out, negator goes back in), and my B 2/2's may just be vanilla guys in comparison w/ hyppie and a p/t lower than the giant, but they come out (sometimes in multiples) on turn one. so while, hyppie is an excellent card and adds a ton of disruption to the deck and the giant is fat, i simply don't have room for him.
oh, and i don't have dystopia. so that's a negative.
the terrors are there for when i need to target a specific creature. i've had them main deck for almost 10 years now and they haven't failed me yet. granted, they've been boarded out before, but it's a rare occasion that they are just a dead card in my hand. plus if i'm on the play, then i definitely kill lackey on turn 2. granted, edict would have the same effect, but i can't run six edicts main deck. i really don't see how smother would be better than terror. i think one's drawback is just as bad as the other's. w/ smother i can only kill small creatures, and w/ terror i can kill anything that's not black or artifact. but then again, it's something to think about, since terror definitely can't kill animated mishra's factory's. i'll will have to give that some thought, since my terror's are super pimp foreign bb.
and although hyppie is an awesome creature, w/ a great ability that can ruin many different opponents, i just don't really like playing him. i don't know why, i can't explain it. i just never have. something about him. he's good, yes, but just doesn't really appeal to me.
well i got to test the deck a little last night. my buddy played my UG opposition deck against it and as long as he doesn't get the orb/opposition lock on me, i have a pretty easy time w/ it. flow hurts because the only sources of blue mana in the deck are birds and 4 breeding pool. but if he gets an early lock, i'm done for. last night he got the lock somewhere around turn 5 or so. which sent me directly to the scoop phase.
against RDW, it's a little different. i was worried that flow would rely a lot on the enchantment to do it's dirty work, but i was wrong. flow seems like an added bonus w/ the deck. third, fourth, and fifth turn fatties are hard to beat. although bob did kill me during one game. stupid bob.
w/ this list i think i can do all right, especially post-s/b, against a lot of the mainstream decks in the format. we'll see i guess. i wish i could get the fetch lands i need for it, but the addition of bob helps out w/ pointless land draws. turns when i would normally just draw a land, i now draw a land and a guy or disruption. he helps get what i need when i need it. although the fetch lands would only help that much more.
anyway, what do you think of this 'final' version?
what if you're like me and my friends, and your local store owner is a total... well, you get the picture. we hardly ever even go to FNM because of him and because there's just not any good players. technically i don't even have a 'local' store owner, considering that the closest place to play FNM, let alone legacy, is about 45-50 miles away.
we don't like to go all the way up there to play FNM, number 1, because it's located in a mall so the tourney must be done by 9pm. number 2, FNM is always type 2 so that's not really all that cool. every now and then type 2 is cool, but not every week. and even then, he has tourney's on saturday's but they're always type 2 and he sucks, so that's that.
calibretto
you definitely started discussions. my friend and i discussed it after i read your post for about 15 minutes or so. he agrees w/ you. and i kinda see it, but i don't know. he said he'd play braids turn 2 if he had the chance. but i don't see it. i feel like it would hinder me as much as it hinders my opponent. the way i see it, comboed w/ flow, it could be worse on the opponent than it is on me. i guess maybe it could work, but i think i'd have to see it in action to get the full effect.
calibretto
calibretto
i don't know about braids in the deck. especially not if you plan on dropping her that early in the game. i think she would hurt the opponent after a turn2 flow, but she could possibly hurt you too. after you drop the braids, you sac a bird and hope u can play a guy. and then what? what do you sac next? you're left w/ flow, braids, guy, and three-four lands. this deck almost needs four lands to operate comfortably. you wouldn't want to sac your guy, and if you end up saccing braids two turns after bringing her out, doesn't that defeat the purpose? i don't know... i just don't see that she is that needed. late game, maybe, but i don't think i'd ever drop her that early.
calibretto
calibretto
calibretto
i think that legacy just needs to be made into a more popular format. honestly, i don't like the idea that FNM is strictly type 2. i understand that most of the players that are playing FNM are only playing FNM and aren't really playing competitively. odds are they probably only have the cards that are t2 legal. but, imo, FNM gets old because it's always the same format which means you always see the same decks.
and i agree w/ the statement above that some of the FNM promos should be legacy staples. probably not lackey or something, but maybe a shiny dark ritual or lightning bolt. that would be pretty cool.
i don't know... i just think that if the legacy format were played locally on a weekly or even monthly basis it would gain more popularity. and even then it doesn't necessarily have to be played at FNM. heck, leave FNM alone and encourage local shops to run saturday or sunday legacy tournaments. in my area it's pretty much constantly a type 2 metagame. for example the closest and soonest legacy tournament i'm going to be playing in is about 70 miles or so away and doesn't occur for a little over a month from now. imo, that's ridiculous. the distance i can understand, because not everyone is blessed w/ living in an area that has a "local" shop. but only playing legacy every few months does nothing to help it's popularity.
anyway, that's my rant on legacy. bleh.
calibretto
4 soltari priest
4 silver knight
3 soltari monk
3 river boa
3 isamaru, hound of konda
4 swords to plowshares
4 tithe
3 seal of cleansing
//pump
4 rancor
4 armadillo cloak
4 mox diamond
//land
4 wasteland
4 savannah
3 temple garden
10 plains
now i know that anyone who looks at this list and is a halfway decent magic player is gonna say "take out tithe for fetch lands and add umezawa's jitte," but fetch lands and jitte are expensive and i think this deck could work w/o them. a cloaked soltari priest coming at you, tends to make things a bit difficult on your side of the table.
goblins may still give this deck trouble, tho. it would definitely require some testing and maybe some fine tuning, since there aren't that many answers for a first turn goblin lackey or aether vial.
what do you guys think?
calibretto
calibretto
as he said above, he's using the first strike guys because of jitte. but even then i don't like them. jitte is an awesome card, but i don't think it's needed in sui black. i think that slot could be filled up by something else. better beats, perhaps.
calibretto
i think your deck looks decent. i actually ran black knight in my original build way back in the day. so long ago, in fact, that dark rit was legal in standard. anyway, although black knight is good he doesn't have enough evasion and there's just better creatures out there. the same could be said for stone throwing devils. if nothing else they could easily be replaced w/ sarcomancy. same mana cost and i'll take and extra point of p/t over first strike anyday. especially if the first striker is only 1/1.
and avatar of kokusho, you are absolutely 100% correct. confinement stops me dead in my tracks. but outside of dystopia i don't really know how to stop it. is dystopia the only way? i could always change up my s/b a bit. i guess i really need a way to get past it, otherwise a confinement on the table spells auto loss for me.
calibretto
smother having cooler artwork than terror is just a matter of opinion. i happen to like the artwork on terror a bit better. not much, but a bit. anyway... i'll probably try running smother over terror just to see if i like it better. or if it makes a difference at all. like i said before, i'm open to suggestions.
in regards to running rotting giant or hyppie... i initially had two giant's in main, but took them out in favor of the plague. to be honest i didn't really like him. at 1B for a 3/3 he's good, but not great. there were several times that i couldn't attack w/ him for lack of cards in the 'yard. and honestly i don't know what i'd possibly think about taking out to put him in. i wouldn't take out slayer because of his evasion. pretty much he's dealing two a turn. i already dropped 1 skirge for a confidant. 2 may be enough, but BB for 3/2 flyer is pretty good. the fact that i can't drop creatures after him isn't really a drawback because w/ a 3/2 flyer in play, my opponent almost has to deal w/ him or end up taking 3 - or maybe even 5 when combined w/ slayer - a turn. so with that said i could fit 1 in. creature kill or scrolls don't come out for him, dark rit doesn't come out for him, plagues don't come out for him (if they come out, negator goes back in), and my B 2/2's may just be vanilla guys in comparison w/ hyppie and a p/t lower than the giant, but they come out (sometimes in multiples) on turn one. so while, hyppie is an excellent card and adds a ton of disruption to the deck and the giant is fat, i simply don't have room for him.
oh, and i don't have dystopia. so that's a negative.
calibretto
and although hyppie is an awesome creature, w/ a great ability that can ruin many different opponents, i just don't really like playing him. i don't know why, i can't explain it. i just never have. something about him. he's good, yes, but just doesn't really appeal to me.
calibretto
against RDW, it's a little different. i was worried that flow would rely a lot on the enchantment to do it's dirty work, but i was wrong. flow seems like an added bonus w/ the deck. third, fourth, and fifth turn fatties are hard to beat. although bob did kill me during one game. stupid bob.
calibretto
4 dauthi slayer
4 dark confidant
4 carnophage
4 sarcomancy
3 skittering skirge
//stuff
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
3 diabolic edict
3 terror
3 cursed scroll
2 engineered plague
19 swamp
4 cabal therapy
4 tormod's crypt
3 phyrexian negator
2 engineered plague
2 pithing needle
w/ this list i think i can do all right, especially post-s/b, against a lot of the mainstream decks in the format. we'll see i guess. i wish i could get the fetch lands i need for it, but the addition of bob helps out w/ pointless land draws. turns when i would normally just draw a land, i now draw a land and a guy or disruption. he helps get what i need when i need it. although the fetch lands would only help that much more.
anyway, what do you think of this 'final' version?
calibretto