i like your list but i would suggest using either riot spikes or funeral charm over edicts. why? edicts are only good versuses reanimator and theshold (sometimes), but overall your creatures have first strike thus a black knight (which wont get stp'ed) benefits greatly with riot spikes (except against mogg fanatic). and you can use the riot spikes to clear out lackey.
this version that you posted is VERY similar to dead guy ale from chis pukula but he is running black/white with vindicates and gerrard's verdict. dead guy ale is extremely competitive, but it has problems versuses ichorid.
ok... so first of all, learn to spell versus. and second of all, riot spikes? over edict? are you serious? ok, so the spikes definitely take out lackey. definitely. but so does engineered plague. in fact plague almost beats goblins all by itself. almost... they can save them selves by dropping a goblin king. edict is almost the best removal spell that black has to offer. sure, they get to choose, but it gets past untargetables.
and to be honest, i don't think pikula's deck is that competitive. it's decent, but pikula is a fantastic magic player. i think his performance w/ the deck is due more to his skill, than it is to his deck.
Which is fine but the fact that Monk's only redeeming value is that 'some jank deck runs dark banishing or something and he's hard to block' makes him an early candidate for swapping for cards that might warrant use. Besides, Chaplain, your recommendation for swap, is also 'hard to block,' but also houses against Thresh, Goblins, and many jank creatures (like omg, some decks might use Man-o'-war.) *shrug*
i understand your argument and i know that the monk is a good candidate for taking out, but just looking at nightmaster's decklist, i see other guys that warrant removing more than the monk. he's been a ww staple for years. the chaplain's pro creatures ability is good. he's 1W for a 1/1. i don't know how happy i'd be w/ that. but then again, i've never actually tested him a deck, so i can't say for sure how good or bad he is against what decks.
and nightmaster, let me know how it runs w/ 4 serra avenger. like i said before, i don't know how good an initial hand w/ 2 avengers would be. i've never wanted to run more than 3. i like having her in multiples, but not in my first seven cards.
ok, first of all i think you should take out the mountains and replace them w/ swamps. it definitely looks like a fun casual deck, but i don't think it'd be competitive enough in a tournament. not enough speed and absolutely no blockers at all.
Name me a well-played black targeted removal run in a well-played blackish deck.
Only one I can think of is Vindicate.
just because the most popular decks in the format aren't running maindeck black creature hate doesn't mean you're not going to see it. i'm not saying that you need 4 monk and 4 white knight and a ton of pro black creatures, i just think it's good deckbuilding to include this guy. besides, not every deck you face at a tourney is going to be a tier 1 deck. you're going to play against some jank that's running dark banishing or something. i think he's awesome in my deck. even w/o the pro-black he's hard to block, which makes him a damage dealer.
ok, so i don't think the monk's should go. vs black you need this guy, plus he's hard to block. i say take out the pro creatures guy. he seems like he's mostly there for evasion purposes. i don't think i'd run more than 3 avenger's. you wanna draw her, but having multiples in hand on t1 could be a bad thing.
i would actually be fine if FNM would stay standard, if store owners would just run something different on saturday's. that way if i wanted to play t2 i could go to FNM and if i was in the mood for something different i'd go on the weekend. if i had a store FNM would always be type 2, saturday's would rotate between extended and 1.5 and on sundays, possibly saturday nights, i'd run a draft if people were interested. it just seems that the store owner's in this area don't really know how to run a store to it's full extent. that's a lot of the reason why i don't like to play there. not a lot of people show up, so it's just not competitive enough. not to mention the lack of a top 8 because of the store being in the mall and being forced to close by 9. that's just not cool. it's not worth the drive. if i drive that far i'm probably going to choose a better place to eat ( *cough*hooters*cough* )over playing magic at a crappy store.
ah, the days of being 15 and needing cards. i remember it like it was yesterday. except it wasn't yesterday, it was like 10 years ago. i'm old.
if you can't afford the duals, then definitely stay mono white. i think the golem is kinda janky, but it be tech against the right decks. i don't know about the suntail hawk. it's kinda tiny for it's cost. it's pro-red, sure, but if you have 4 priest and 4 silver knight main deck, then that's probably all the pro red you need.
and if you want my opinion on serra avenger, i'll sure give it. the avenger is hot. she's fantastic. i ran her in my boros build. she may not come out til late, but odds are you've got other stuff to drop before she makes an apperance. she might even be a considerable addition to my build. the problem is, i wouldn't know where to start taking out. i think it's pretty solid the way it is. so yeah, she's great and i say if you can fit her in, she's a definite improvement.
jotun grunt would be excellent against threshold. but i think if he finds a spot in my deck, he'll be strictly s/b for threshold. he could prove to be useful against loam as well.
and to be honest, splashing really isn't all that expensive. it is, but it could be worse. as long as you can afford the duals and the moxen you shouldn't have a problem. tithe for mana search isn't really that expensive. the creature enchantments may run you a couple bucks a piece, but that's really not that bad. jitte, i don't think, is needed. sure it's nice, and if you had them and wanted to run them, i wouldn't argue, but in this build armadillo cloak owns. it's so good.
and as i said, i would like to play this deck in my upcoming legacy event, but i'm still testing heavily. there are a lot of matchups i haven't been able to play yet that i'll be able to see this weekend. if it seems to pretty good against most of the decks i test against, then i'll fine tune the s/b and do some testing w/ s/b in vs my problem decks and see how that goes.
my deck looks pretty much exactly like yours, sephiroth. except for i don't think i run duress. i'm running ravenous baloth. have you tested this guy? often times he's a game winner, blocking some fatness and gaining me life. i'd post my list, but i'm at work.
i think i slightly agree w/ amadi, here. my reason is because i have a legacy format city champs coming up and the only deck i'm worried about is goblins. everytime i think about a different deck that i can take, i wonder, 'can it beat goblins?' don't get me wrong, goblins isn't the only deck i test against, and if i beat goblins repeatedly, but lose to everything else, obviously the deck's not worth taking. but when someone like chris pikula feels it's necessary to run maindeck cards like engineered plague, that should tell them something. goblins is a fairly cheap (compared to the rest of the format), solid deck. and it pretty much runs the format. i think that if lackey were banned, goblins could survive, but it wouldn't be around in such multitude. of course it would still be played, it just wouldn't have as strong or as hard to beat. it would still be a good deck. only now it's more feasable to think about winning against it, no matter what deck you're packing. i just think that not having your meta game be 20% the same deck, would make legacy that much more fun to play.
well, i didn't say that i lost to loam consistantly. i said it was a better match-up. w/ goblins it's almost an auto win for me. against loam i have to actually think. it's not just about dropping the protection guy and making him huge and gaining more life than goblins can deal w/. i have to think about what creatures to drop and what lands to wasteland when, which guys to swords, etc. so i'd say this match-up is probably 50/50 for me. and like i said i'll get to test it more this weekend. i honestly don't think i'll have anymore mathups that were as good as vs goblins, but i hope so. i think i'll do pretty good against the likes of threshold and such, tho.
i do apologize for the double post, but i wanted to post my testing results tonight. first of all goblins has a very hard time w/ this deck. and i do mean very hard. fat pro-red life gaining guys win this match-up. i think i went 4-1 vs it tonight. the only game my friend won i drew tons of land and not many threats so he goblins just beat beat beat and i proceeded to die.
i was also able to test a few games vs a life from the loam deck. this was a better match-up as far as game play goes. vs goblins was pretty cut and dry. drop a pro red guy, make him fat, proceed to beat. but this was a little different. during one game, i got my friend to one life and he came back and beat me down from 20 something life. which sucked. and i must say this because it was so awesome. i'm holding a seal which he knows from an earlier cabal therapy. he casts hymn to tourach and gets rid of it. i beat him down pretty low and he drops solitary confinement, which stops me dead in my tracks. i top deck another seal which, of course takes out confinement. i swing in taking him one attack away from a game loss. he draws - eternal witness. casts it, brings back confinement. and then says, "dude, you rip another seal, i swear i'll punch you in the face. go." i draw, smile, tap two and cast...... seal of cleansing, baby!! i don't think i've ever had a better draw step in my life!
but anyway, those are the only two decks i was able to test against. i think that by splashing green the odds are in my favor vs goblins, but against loam it could go either way. hopefully i'll be able to test against more this weekend. i'll be sure and post my results. i'm starting to really consider taking this to my upcoming legacy city champs. depends on how it stands up in other match ups and whether or not i can get the cards i need.
well, guys, this is unlike me, but i'm going to apologize. it seems i jumped the gun on assuming braids would be a bad choice for this deck. my friend showed me the way tonight. we through braids in, and although he didn't really get to keep her on the table for very long, she did manage to get rid of one of my basic lands and a creature. as far as we was concerned, she done her job of setting me back a turn or so letting him get set up to lay down some smack. so i'm changing my vote. i think braids does wonders for this deck.
Guys, if you want more Legacy tournaments, do what I've been doing.
Round up support from other players and bug your local store owner.
what if you're like me and my friends, and your local store owner is a total... well, you get the picture. we hardly ever even go to FNM because of him and because there's just not any good players. technically i don't even have a 'local' store owner, considering that the closest place to play FNM, let alone legacy, is about 45-50 miles away.
we don't like to go all the way up there to play FNM, number 1, because it's located in a mall so the tourney must be done by 9pm. number 2, FNM is always type 2 so that's not really all that cool. every now and then type 2 is cool, but not every week. and even then, he has tourney's on saturday's but they're always type 2 and he sucks, so that's that.
What I ment to say was two turns of a player losing both a Nonbasic as well as a critter which means that this would ruin some other decks. And yeah I would just sac a Birds and then sac a mox or whatever. They would lose four permanents and I would lose two or they sac 6-5 and I sac three including braids. And yeah I know 4cc is the roof of the deck but I just wanted to start some discussions.
you definitely started discussions. my friend and i discussed it after i read your post for about 15 minutes or so. he agrees w/ you. and i kinda see it, but i don't know. he said he'd play braids turn 2 if he had the chance. but i don't see it. i feel like it would hinder me as much as it hinders my opponent. the way i see it, comboed w/ flow, it could be worse on the opponent than it is on me. i guess maybe it could work, but i think i'd have to see it in action to get the full effect.
ok... so first of all, learn to spell versus. and second of all, riot spikes? over edict? are you serious? ok, so the spikes definitely take out lackey. definitely. but so does engineered plague. in fact plague almost beats goblins all by itself. almost... they can save them selves by dropping a goblin king. edict is almost the best removal spell that black has to offer. sure, they get to choose, but it gets past untargetables.
and to be honest, i don't think pikula's deck is that competitive. it's decent, but pikula is a fantastic magic player. i think his performance w/ the deck is due more to his skill, than it is to his deck.
calibretto
i understand your argument and i know that the monk is a good candidate for taking out, but just looking at nightmaster's decklist, i see other guys that warrant removing more than the monk. he's been a ww staple for years. the chaplain's pro creatures ability is good. he's 1W for a 1/1. i don't know how happy i'd be w/ that. but then again, i've never actually tested him a deck, so i can't say for sure how good or bad he is against what decks.
and nightmaster, let me know how it runs w/ 4 serra avenger. like i said before, i don't know how good an initial hand w/ 2 avengers would be. i've never wanted to run more than 3. i like having her in multiples, but not in my first seven cards.
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just because the most popular decks in the format aren't running maindeck black creature hate doesn't mean you're not going to see it. i'm not saying that you need 4 monk and 4 white knight and a ton of pro black creatures, i just think it's good deckbuilding to include this guy. besides, not every deck you face at a tourney is going to be a tier 1 deck. you're going to play against some jank that's running dark banishing or something. i think he's awesome in my deck. even w/o the pro-black he's hard to block, which makes him a damage dealer.
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if you can't afford the duals, then definitely stay mono white. i think the golem is kinda janky, but it be tech against the right decks. i don't know about the suntail hawk. it's kinda tiny for it's cost. it's pro-red, sure, but if you have 4 priest and 4 silver knight main deck, then that's probably all the pro red you need.
and if you want my opinion on serra avenger, i'll sure give it. the avenger is hot. she's fantastic. i ran her in my boros build. she may not come out til late, but odds are you've got other stuff to drop before she makes an apperance. she might even be a considerable addition to my build. the problem is, i wouldn't know where to start taking out. i think it's pretty solid the way it is. so yeah, she's great and i say if you can fit her in, she's a definite improvement.
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and to be honest, splashing really isn't all that expensive. it is, but it could be worse. as long as you can afford the duals and the moxen you shouldn't have a problem. tithe for mana search isn't really that expensive. the creature enchantments may run you a couple bucks a piece, but that's really not that bad. jitte, i don't think, is needed. sure it's nice, and if you had them and wanted to run them, i wouldn't argue, but in this build armadillo cloak owns. it's so good.
and as i said, i would like to play this deck in my upcoming legacy event, but i'm still testing heavily. there are a lot of matchups i haven't been able to play yet that i'll be able to see this weekend. if it seems to pretty good against most of the decks i test against, then i'll fine tune the s/b and do some testing w/ s/b in vs my problem decks and see how that goes.
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i was also able to test a few games vs a life from the loam deck. this was a better match-up as far as game play goes. vs goblins was pretty cut and dry. drop a pro red guy, make him fat, proceed to beat. but this was a little different. during one game, i got my friend to one life and he came back and beat me down from 20 something life. which sucked. and i must say this because it was so awesome. i'm holding a seal which he knows from an earlier cabal therapy. he casts hymn to tourach and gets rid of it. i beat him down pretty low and he drops solitary confinement, which stops me dead in my tracks. i top deck another seal which, of course takes out confinement. i swing in taking him one attack away from a game loss. he draws - eternal witness. casts it, brings back confinement. and then says, "dude, you rip another seal, i swear i'll punch you in the face. go." i draw, smile, tap two and cast...... seal of cleansing, baby!! i don't think i've ever had a better draw step in my life!
but anyway, those are the only two decks i was able to test against. i think that by splashing green the odds are in my favor vs goblins, but against loam it could go either way. hopefully i'll be able to test against more this weekend. i'll be sure and post my results. i'm starting to really consider taking this to my upcoming legacy city champs. depends on how it stands up in other match ups and whether or not i can get the cards i need.
calibretto
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what if you're like me and my friends, and your local store owner is a total... well, you get the picture. we hardly ever even go to FNM because of him and because there's just not any good players. technically i don't even have a 'local' store owner, considering that the closest place to play FNM, let alone legacy, is about 45-50 miles away.
we don't like to go all the way up there to play FNM, number 1, because it's located in a mall so the tourney must be done by 9pm. number 2, FNM is always type 2 so that's not really all that cool. every now and then type 2 is cool, but not every week. and even then, he has tourney's on saturday's but they're always type 2 and he sucks, so that's that.
calibretto
you definitely started discussions. my friend and i discussed it after i read your post for about 15 minutes or so. he agrees w/ you. and i kinda see it, but i don't know. he said he'd play braids turn 2 if he had the chance. but i don't see it. i feel like it would hinder me as much as it hinders my opponent. the way i see it, comboed w/ flow, it could be worse on the opponent than it is on me. i guess maybe it could work, but i think i'd have to see it in action to get the full effect.
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