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  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 - WHITE voting OPEN

    01 Balance
    02 Armageddon / Ravages of War
    03 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    04 Mother of Runes
    05 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    06 Stoneforge Mystic
    07 Wrath of God / Day of Judgment
    08 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
    09 Moat
    10 Gideon Jura
    11 Restoration Angel
    12 Land Tax
    13 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    14 Swords to Plowshares
    15 Path to Exile
    16 Monastery Mentor
    17 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    18 Council's Judgment
    19 Angel of Invention
    20 Lyra Dawnbringer
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on This or That discussion.
    Looking at your list, I'd cut Nimble Obstructionist to make room for Mana Drain. It was one of those cards that looked really cool on paper, but always felt just below the curve when it came up. It really needed to be an ETB Stifle on a 3/1 flash flying to be cube worthy, imo.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 Planning
    FWIW, I'm in the same camp as wtwlf on thinking that the data we're mining here is mostly insignificant (at least to me). Sure, the mining part is fun. Who doesn't like making lists? Lists are great! But I don't think an average top 20 list for any given section in cube will be relevant to me. Odds are I'm already running the cards on these lists and I don't think specific rankings will have any bearing on how I personally evaluate specific cards.

    I'll advocate again for top X for each casting cost in each color. While this would be a much bigger project, I think the resulting data would be much more useful for cubers of all experience levels. For someone who's been cubing for years, it's nice to see a list of the best options for a specific cost if you're maybe looking for new options. For someone who's just beginning, a list like that is a nice resource for where to start. Not only this, but this is a project we haven't taken on for nearly ten years now and I, for one, would be very interested in seeing that those lists look like now.

    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    Same. If Nexus gives me a reason to move, then I'll move, but for now I'd rather just stay here. Splitting the community and also giving myself yet another site to check each day doesn't sound very nice.

    Also, there hasn't been much communication advocating for Nexus or giving us a reason to make the jump.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 Planning
    Quote from wtwlf123 »
    Quote from Calibretto »
    "These are the first twenty cards I'd include in X section in order of importance"?

    The problem with this prompt is curve. A 20-card section wouldn't contain the 20 "best" white cards.

    I mean, yeah, but how many people are building cubes with 20 card sections? If I were building a 360 card cube with 50 per section, the first 20 cards I'd include would likely be the same first 20 cards I'd include if I were building a 540 card cube with 70 cards per section.

    But I feel like we're all just arguing semantics here. Ultimately, while I do find the data we get from these top 20 votes to be interesting to read through, I don't think it has much value in terms of the lists of cards we end up with. I don't mean to be rude if that comes off that way.

    The type of data that I think is more valuable is either a top X for each casting cost in each color or just a cube comparison that results in how many cubes run specific cards. Looking a list of the top X White 5 drops is helpful for new cubers looking to get into the format and for veteran cubers who may just be looking for something fresh to swap in over Baneslayer. Alternatively, a cube comparison that tells me 30 cubers are running a card that I've been overlooking is helpful for me to find new cards for my cube and also helpful for new cubers looking for a starting point for a new cube. Both of these data finding methods are better, imo, than a Top 20 for each color. It's hard to agree on a metric and then get everyone voting to stick to that metric. And, who is this data for? It's unlikely that I'll find something new for my own cube on these lists. If a new cuber looks at this and just says, Oh I need to include these twenty cards, that doesn't give them any sort of context for where they need to go from there.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    Quote from FunkyDragon »
    Awesome. I wasn't sure who had done it, but it was super useful (only have the link because I contacted a mod after the thread disappeared). Not that I want my cube to be a copy of the average, but looking at how many people ran certain cards helped me to evaluate them versus my own likes and biases.

    Oh, yeah, totally. Mine is 360 and cuts are hard. This comparison opened my eyes to several cards that I wasn't running that probably deserved a slot at 360. I think the data is super valuable.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    Quote from FunkyDragon »
    We used to have the Average MTGSalvation Peasant Cube thread, but it got deleted with the whole EU User GDPR law fiasco. It pointed to this cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/123651. When it was active, I would use the cubetutor feature to compare my cube with it to see if there was anything I was overlooking.

    Speaking of, is anyone planning to maintain such a list either here or on MTG Nexus? Is anyone planning to go to MTG Nexus? There hasn't exactly been much action over there, but it only recently opened. I know it's a lot of work, but the average cube is pretty useful.

    I did the average MTGS cube last year that you're linking to. That thread got deleted when whatever happened with Curse that caused so many people to start posting under User-3566432 or whatever. Any threads started by those users were purged. I wouldn't mind doing it again this year (probably in Nov/Dec). I think the data gleaned from it is pretty valuable.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 Planning
    Quote from wtwlf123 »
    Quote from calibretto »
    And Path should almost definitely be on a top twenty list for white.

    Then we're asking the wrong questions. Because if that's making a list of "top P1P1 cards", the data we're getting is pretty meaningless.

    Agreed. That was my point. It's rare that I'd ever take Path at P1P1, so if it's on a list of the top twenty P1P1 white cards it raises a lot of questions about how useful the data actually is.

    Why not just say "These are the first twenty cards I'd include in X section in order of importance"? These lists should be here to support new cubers looking for a resource when building their cubes.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 Planning
    I agree that P1P1 is the metric that is easiest to parse. Would I take Card A over Card B? If yes, then rank accordingly. However, the biggest problem with that is the number of true P1P1s in any given color fall off fairly quickly. Maybe there's five or ten white cards that I would realistically take P1P1 given other options, but what does a pack have to look like for me to take Path to Exile over options from other colors (or colorless)? And Path should almost definitely be on a top twenty list for white.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on Kicker Costs: What is too expensive ?
    Quote from Humphrey »
    i think even maro said most players usually go for value

    Maro did say this, but he also said that was wrong. In the example he gave, he's referring to Kavu Titan and specifically says that it was often wrong to not just run it out as a bear. And he talks about how players evaluate cards incorrectly based on extra text without looking at how valuable the base mode actually is. To n00b1n8R's point, curving out wins games. If you have something better to do each turn before you get the mana to cast the card for full value, then it's probably correct to wait. If not and casting the card in its base mode will affect the board somehow, then it's normally going to be correct to just run it out and keep the game flowing.

    The Maro story can be found in this article from 2007.

    Specifically this piece:

    This story isn't really about design but it's become such a classic story (and it involves kicker) that I felt obliged to tell it once again. (And yes, I know I told it during my Invasion Week article, Body Snatchers of the Invasion.) During Invasion development I played frequently in the FFL (the Future Future League, where we play many months ahead to try and figure out what the future environment will be like). Because I wasn't the best of deck builders (at least a Spike deck builder; I could hold my own in a Johnny world), I usually got decks from other developers. Randy Buehler was running the FFL at the time, and he gave me a red-green deck to play. In it were four Grizzly Bears. I didn't think anything of it at the time. I then went on to go 4-0 that week. I was the only person with an undefeated record.

    During my last match, Randy watched. At some point late in one of the games, I played my Grizzly Bears. After the match was over, Randy informed me that the Grizzly Bears weren't actually Grizzly Bears. They were proxies for Kavu Titan. Armed with this information, the next week I went 2-2. Suffice to say that the R&D guys thought this was the funniest thing ever. The lesson I learned was the importance of using the Kavu Titans as 2/2s. When I was aggressive with Kavu Titan, my deck performed much better. When I waited to maximize the Kavu Titans as 5/5 creatures, I lost much of the aggression of my deck and thus some of its power. Week 3, I went 4-0 again.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 Planning
    I don't think spoiler tags solves the "problem" of people being influenced by other voters' lists. I mean, just open the tag and look at the list. I understand what it's trying to do, but if you really want everyone to be submitting their lists uninfluenced by other lists, then you should do this via PM.

    I also don't think we'll be able to come to a true unanimous agreement on the voting criteria. Even if you tell folks to post their top twenty "most impactful" white cards and everyone agrees on that, you'll still gets posters who interpret that differently. What does impactful really mean in terms of cube? Is Armageddon the white card that's had the most impact on games for me? Does that make it rank higher than Moat or Balance? Maybe I'll just shortcut impactful to mean P1P1 or favorite since these are easier for me to interpret. I don't believe there's really a way to avoid this metric being mostly arbitrary based on the individual posters.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on End of an Era

    Cool, but that's in the Commander forum (which explains why that section of MTG Nexus has so much traffic already). When I said "here" I didn't necessarily mean "somewhere on MTGS". I meant none of the cube forum threads had been updated to let us cubers know we can go check it out. Just a little disappointing is all.
    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on End of an Era
    So, MTG Nexus is live, but no updates here on it? I found out by watching Magic Mics this morning. The commander forum over there already has tons of traffic, but the cube forum only has a couple of threads.

    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 Planning
    Every time one of these projects comes up, these organization debates resurface. FWIW, I agree with wtwlf on pretty much everything here.

    The organization style he mentions makes the most sense to me. Costs green, taps for a white? That's a Selesnya card. Why? Well, because when I'm playing Selesnya is when that card is at its best. Will it see play in a Gruul deck? Sure, occasionally that deck will fall short on mana dorks and need to play a Boreal Druid to make up for it. But that's certainly not where it's at its best.

    On the subject of voting criteria, I think a top 20 list would have more value if the cards on that list were quite literally something a new cuber could refer to and get a good idea of what the most played / most loved / best cube cards for that respective color are. Someone who is completely new to the format should realistically be able to refer back to these lists and find a nice starting point for the cube cards in each other that we veteran cubers tend to prefer. Obviously, cube is what each of us makes it out to be and everyone's cube will (and should) be at least a little different. But a top 20 list for each color as a starting point for my new cuber brain way back in 2007 would have been a priceless resource.

    On a similar note, last December I took it upon myself to re-up a project from the previous year to find the average peasant cube list among active MTGS forum posters. Don't get me wrong, this was a ton of work for me and I completed it while off from work on vacation around the holidays. In a nutshell, I just pulled lists that had been updated recently then consolidated that data in Excel and spit it back out as an Average Peasant Cube on CubeTutor. Doing this meant that it didn't matter if someone had Faerie Conclave in their land section instead of in their blue section. As long as it was somewhere in the list it got a point toward how many cubers included it. The final organization was my prerogative because I was the one uploading to CT, but that didn't matter. If you check the CT list you can see that Faerie Conclave is a popular cube card. If you disagree with where I sorted it, that's fine, but based on numbers, it's at least a card you should consider. The data I got from this comparison project was really interesting and actually made me give several cards a second (or sometimes third) look based on how popular they were among trusted cubers here. The point of this is to say that, if I wanted to, right now I could refer to that data and see what the top twenty white cards for peasant cube are as of Dec 2018. Doing it this way removed both the organization debate and criteria of the vote factors from the discussion. It's quite literally just a "played in X cubes" list sorted by most to least, which I think can provide more value than having multiple people submit top twenty lists all using different criteria. If you compare 30 cubes and all 30 are running Card X, then that's probably a good cube card. If you compare 30 lists and only two of them are running Card Y, then maybe that card is a little more niche.

    I'm not advocating that you take on such a big project, but I do think data like this that really doesn't have a chance of being tainted by human interpretation is more valuable. It's literally just numbers.

    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on Sacred Cows
    Quote from BlackWaltz3 »
    Maybe I define "sacred cow" differently.

    Is that open to debate on different definitions, though? A sacred cow is something that people tend to hold in such high regard that any criticism of it tends to fall on deaf ears or get immediately brushed off. Just because you might think a card that sees play in a multitude of lists hasn't stood the test of time, doesn't mean it qualifies as a sacred cow. And certainly a popular card that's too powerful for your specific environment doesn't qualify.

    It just seems to be more productive to discuss cards individually and ask in an SCD or a cube thread what the pay off for still running the card is than to just post a mostly arbitrary opinionated list that stands no chance of having a consensus agreement or even generating a meaningful discussion. It's much better to go into someone's cube list thread who seems to be having success with storm and ask them about the archetype in their list than to just add that archetype to a sacred cows thread and expect defenders of it to not be even mildly offended by the claim. Instead of getting a response from someone on the defensive, you're more likely to get a response from someone who's happy to offer information and help.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
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