Secondly, MLD. Just, ramp players don't expect it; the format's culture has made them feel entitled. As with everything, when you start house-banning anti-X, don't be surprised if X takes over.
Once again Hyalapter comes in with the real truth the 90% are afraid to say.
It’s not the “real truth” if it isn’t true.
What about heavy Artifact Ramp? Or Mana Dorks? The only group that sounds “entitled” are the one who believe they are “policing” the format with MLD, protecting us all from the big scary ramp monster.
For reals tho, who has ever said “Thanks for blowing up my sh** just to slow that guy down”.
Clearly, nobody looks at a board clogged with mana rocks and says, "Where's my Wrath of God?", or "Where's my Armageddon?" when staring down a suite of mana dorks. Having a wipe for any situation is just good commander deck building. Rather than houseban removal, I just play around it.
Play MLD. Ramp players should expect it. You don't see combo players trying to ban counterspells. It's the artificial absence of MLD that makes ramp such a popular strategy. Erebos help me if I ever sit down with my big mana mono black deck with all the coffers variants under the sun and say, "Hey guys, no land destruction, okay"... I cringe at the thought.
Yeah MLD surely sounds like the best way to punish the ramp player and not harm regular decks.
“Regular players” should expect to be harmed by the prepared player when one of them has ten lands on turn four. I expect to lose my creatures when Krenko is at the table. I expect to lose my artifacts when the blue guy gets all his out there. Players not up for collateral damage should stick to 1v1 formats.
Play MLD. Ramp players should expect it. You don't see combo players trying to ban counterspells. It's the artificial absence of MLD that makes ramp such a popular strategy. Erebos help me if I ever sit down with my big mana mono black deck with all the coffers variants under the sun and say, "Hey guys, no land destruction, okay"... I cringe at the thought.
This thread really puts a fine point on what it is to be a commander player. Players don't like combo because they can't interact with it. Players don't like MLD because they don't want their ramp interacted with. This is actually the best argument for just saying screw it and playing to win.
EDIT: At this very moment, the thread where ramp players don't want opponents interacting with their ramp and the thread where ramp players feel entitled to interact with combos are back to back.
I'm surprised Commander isn't a lot more pro-combo than it is, at least here. If you play Standard, you're not really playing combo. If a combo deck starts doing well in Modern, Wizards is way more likely to put a stop to it than if a midrange deck does so. This is one of three formats where you can actually play combo, and of the three, the other two being vintage and legacy, this is the only one where you can play off the wall combos. I can see the casual player's argument against Hermit Druid, Ad Nauseam, High Tide, and other very competitive and very early combo win conditions. I don't see the argument against three or four card silliness as an alternative to winning by turning fatties sideways. We have two constructed formats dedicated to turning creatures sideways, and it's all you can do in limited. Commander is all about variety. If someone plops down an Endrek Sahr, Phyrexian Altar, Blood Artist and Endless Cockroaches and goes off on turn six, reshuffle and have at it again.
Endrek Sahr is one of the finest Legends WotC has ever printed -- a perfect harmony of form and function. He's been my commander of choice, off and on, since I began playing Commander several years ago. That is my story. This is his deck.
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder runs a broad swath of infinite combos all centered around Phyrexian Altar, but he's CMC5, his early game is weak, and I opted not to run tutors. It's not the combo that ruins a game, it's how and when you get to it. The point of the combos was to naturally draw into them while playing a combination of Aristocrats/Grave Pact and Big Mana/Exsanguinate strategies.
I'd just include ways to be able to win through/despite your overly lethargic opposition on a better timetable. If they complain, suggest that they also try winning.
If Sol Ring is a one of a kind effect, I wouldn't bother running it. For me to run Sol Ring, I'd want to be running the whole suite of AAA ramp-rocks. I value a consistant game experience, so I don't run singleton effects in commander unless the effect is my commander. Decks with no real dedication to ramp that just toss in a Sol Ring because it's the rule are worse off for it.
Agreed. There's a minimum level of effort that needs to go into deck building, just as there's a ceiling. Generally it's only the ceiling that gets discussed, simply because the floor is usually self-regulating in that there's not many people out there who like taking a beating. But it is interesting to consider that a high ceiling does generally mean a higher level for the floor, too. And that can get frustrating for someone without an infinite budget, or with a theme to convey.
Fortunately, answers aren't usually where the Commander decks get expensive. The mana base is consistently expensive across all multicolor decks, and after that, you've got the oddball Legends card here or there with an outsized price, but the meat and potatoes of healthy table interaction shouldn't be a bar of entry for any Commander players. I was messing around with a Junk deck that ran all your favorite "destroy target non-whatever permanent", from Utter End to Bramblecrush - there were at least ten of them, instants and sorceries in the 2-4 mana range, and I don't think I cleared $20.00. That removal core could deal with any board issue, surgically, and for a cheap real world price. Your VIPs in other colors aren't much worse.
I think the format needs its share of near-broken and 'unfun' (though I wouldn't call them such) cards. Why? Because they, like everything else, incentivize building decks that are prepared to deal with them. Those cards of the format, in my view, overall promote deeper thought in deck construction and strategy, which results in those decks being more prepared for other similar game states that those power cards might not necessarily produce, but may be reached by other means.
How is this not just 'get good' as opposed to actually discussing and considering the type of play experience a group would like?
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
I've had a very strong urge to get back to EDH's roots and build a deck helmed by an Elder Dragon, and I had built Ojutai as what was effectively a battlecruiser casual spell-slinger deck, but was convinced by friends after completion that Taigam would helm the deck better. There's something about an elder dragon commander that leads me to suggest it here.
Clearly, nobody looks at a board clogged with mana rocks and says, "Where's my Wrath of God?", or "Where's my Armageddon?" when staring down a suite of mana dorks. Having a wipe for any situation is just good commander deck building. Rather than houseban removal, I just play around it.
“Regular players” should expect to be harmed by the prepared player when one of them has ten lands on turn four. I expect to lose my creatures when Krenko is at the table. I expect to lose my artifacts when the blue guy gets all his out there. Players not up for collateral damage should stick to 1v1 formats.
EDIT: At this very moment, the thread where ramp players don't want opponents interacting with their ramp and the thread where ramp players feel entitled to interact with combos are back to back.
1 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Creature
1 Blood Artist
1 Nezumi Bone-Reader
1 Disciple of Griselbrand
1 Endless Cockroaches
1 Viscera Seer
1 Deathgreeter
1 Pitiless Plunderer
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Caligo Skin-Witch
1 Burglar Rat
1 Cackling Fiend
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Thallid Soothsayer
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Mind Raker
1 Ruthless Knave
1 Sangromancer
1 Corpse Traders
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Krav, the Unredeemed
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Magus of the Coffers
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Bontu the Glorified
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Slum Reaper
1 Harvester of Souls
1 God-Eternal Bontu
1 Kothophed, Soul Hoarder
1 Vindictive Vampire
1 Malevolent Awakening
1 Mind Slash
1 Grave Pact
1 Heartless Summoning
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Vampiric Rites
1 Revel in Riches
1 Waste Not
1 Black Market
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Shadows of the Past
1 Thoughtrender Lamia
Land
1 Vesuva
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Cabal Coffers
31 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Cabal Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
Artifact
1 Doubling Cube
1 Carnage Altar
1 Caged Sun
1 Jet Medallion
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Bontu's Monument
1 Skullclamp
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Bolas's Citadel
1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General
Fortunately, answers aren't usually where the Commander decks get expensive. The mana base is consistently expensive across all multicolor decks, and after that, you've got the oddball Legends card here or there with an outsized price, but the meat and potatoes of healthy table interaction shouldn't be a bar of entry for any Commander players. I was messing around with a Junk deck that ran all your favorite "destroy target non-whatever permanent", from Utter End to Bramblecrush - there were at least ten of them, instants and sorceries in the 2-4 mana range, and I don't think I cleared $20.00. That removal core could deal with any board issue, surgically, and for a cheap real world price. Your VIPs in other colors aren't much worse.
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.