the deck's 24 lands. cinder barrens are there to help with mana fixing (because too many BB and RR cards). i used Frank Karsten's guide as the basis for the mana base. i cannot use Grasp of Darkness as it's BB so if i must cast it on turn 2, most of the time i won't be able to. though of course, Grasp seems like a better removal than Roast sometimes.
Dark Dwellers actually plays well with Avaricious Dragon. any spell discarded through the dragon can be cast back by the goblin later.
G1 vs Mono White Humans - loss. hand was too slow, opponent too fast.
G2 vs Bant Company - loss. mulliganed to 4 on the deciding round.
G3 vs G/R Ramp - win.
G4 vs U/R Thing in the Ice Control - win.
G5 vs G/B Aristocrats - win. close game. lost one round to Westvale Abbey.
Ire Shaman's kind of lackluster in the deck. i plan to replace her with 2 Ruinous Paths to help me get rid of pesky creatures and planeswalkers.
I see that my deck is a bit more aggressive with the low cost creatures. Perhaps that's why we differ on Sin Prodder. He filters out lands for me and is likely to put a card into my hand that I can play. With a higher mana curver like your deck, he filters out the lands you need to cast higher cost creatures and filters out your high cost cards so you can't play them.
I can see that you do have many more cards than me that cost 2 colored mana to cast. Cinder Barrens is probably a good choice then, especially because you don't necessarily need the mana on turn 2, where as my deck NEEDS untapped mana turn 2. On the other hand, it can keep 2 land hands and win, which I like.
While I haven't been able to play test it yet, Dragonlord's Servant seems like a good choice against more aggressive decks. I've found white humans to be doing a lot of damage by turn 3 thanks to Thraben Inspector and Thalia's Lieutenent. Having a 3 toughness creature down on turn 2 that ramps into 4/4 a turn early would really help shut that down. Worth sideboarding perhaps. I'll let you know how it goes after play testing.
About Ronnie's deck:
This looks more like a control deck, but I appreciate added ideas to the thread. Do you have trouble against aggro decks? I wonder about Duress and Mind Rot against such decks. Seems like you might run into a lot of situations where they don't have enough cards or the card type you want them to discard. I would imagine that some Ultimate Price, Roast or Grasp of Darkness would be a better choice for just a couple of those slots.
It seems incredible to me that you can run so few lands and get away with it, but I haven't played the deck. Do you have to mulligan much? I play a Modern green ramp devotion deck that runs only 20 lands, but it has 11 1 cmc ramp cards in it.
If you are looking for more madness outlets, I think Heir of Falkenwrath is one of the best. On the other hand, Sinister Concoction could be a good enabler in a control deck instead of the kill spells listed above. I definitely think you'd need more land if you add 5 cmc creatures into the mix. Thunderbreak Regent might be a better choice than either Goblin Darkdwellers of Wolf of Devil's Breach.
Personally I think discarding any more than 1 card to Avaricious Dragon is a grave mistake. Good players will likely be able to get rid of multiple cards you had be destroying your dragon before the ability goes off. It's why I'm playing more Thunderbreak Regent than Avaricious Dragon these days. Too many times I had to Avaricious Dragons in hand, or multiple other spells preventing me from playing him on turn 4.
***Edit*** What do you play Tainted Remedy and Crumble to Dust against? I haven't seen any life-gain themed decks, but I'm just getting started in Standard!
Looking forward to your report from FNM!
This deck list definitely belongs here. ***Edit***This is in response to Zhakad's deck. It has the same idea/game plan. You are right about the deck being too top heavy in my opinion. There are not enough lands in the deck to support even my lower to the ground version. 21 lands is only acceptable for the most aggro deck where nearly everything is a one or two drop. Check out the "How to build a good deck" thread that is pinned to the top of this forum. It has a break down of a deck's cmc vs how many lands to run in it.
I would take out the Goblin Dark Dwellers for 3 more land to begin with. Also, with added land, you won't need Cinder Barrens any more (replace them with basics.) It will help speed up the deck significantly to have more lands and none that always come into play tapped. I considered Goblin Dark Dwellers for a while, but this deck can win before we get to 5 lands. It feels like a "win more" card. It also doesn't pair well with Avaricious Dragon.
Drana Liberator of Malakir is a great card for the deck. I haven't been playing it due to cost, but I can see how she'd be a great fit. Putting in 4 Ire Shamans should help the deck quite well. He will be incredible if you can play him turn 2 and Drana turn 3.
Roast looks like a good card to include in the deck. You might consider taking out at least a couple of Exquisite Firecraft for Ultimate Price or Grasp of Darkness. 2 cmc removal helps the deck out as it can lead to a creature and a removal spell turn 4.
I can see how Sin Prodder would cause lots of problems in a deck with so little mana and a higher top end of spells. He seems to work well for me, but I don't believe he's essential for the deck.
I'd love to hear more results when you have them. What does your sideboard look like?
Cool! Glad you'll be giving the deck a shot. I feel that either of those spells could work well. Just make sure you have plenty of other 2-3 cmc kill spells as well. The deck I built was originally more madness centered. I played 1-2 copies of Lightning Axe and Incorrigible Youths. The more I play the deck, the further away from madness I get. I don't think the current cards justify playing heavy madness, but this will probably change with the release of Eldritch Moon. Though my current version is playing a lot of Dragons of Tarkir cards, I believe Eldritch Moon will give the deck what it needs to efficiently replace those cards by the time rotation comes around.
***Edit*** Ire Shaman may end up being the most difficult card to replace during rotation if there isn't another good 2 drop with evasion in our colors. Relentless Dead could be the replacement we need. Relentless dead could probably fit into this deck too in place of another 2 drop. I just haven't wanted to spend the money on them. My goal is to keep this deck budget-ish. It's price has continued to plummet. Any thoughts on if the price will continue to drop? I think it will since the set will continued to be opened more. I may proxy this up for some play testing. Since there is no longer a need for red one drops in the deck, I'm more inclined to think the mana base can support this card.
If you are going heavier into madness, play 4 Fiery Temper and perhaps a couple of Avacyn's Judgment, at least in the sideboard.
This newer version of the deck is more Dragon-centric. I took Heir to Falkenwrath down to 3 cards and put Olivia's Bloodsworn up to 3. Heir can lead to 2 for ones against us if there isn't enough madness to support it. Smart opponents will wait until we discard to flip it, then use a kill spell on it, making it a risky play, especially if we had 2 Heirs in our hands to begin with. The fact that Olivia's can give itsself (and other vampires) haste late game is very helpful for this deck to put pressure on. Most of the creatures have low power in this deck, which means we need as many creatures getting damage through as fast as possible. I think switching out the 3 Dragonlord's Servant from the sideboard for the 3 Olivia's Bloodsworn against aggro decks will work well. White+Other another color humans are tough to beat when they play Thalia's Lieutenent. Dragonlord's Servant should go a long way in stopping early damage in these games.
Ire Shaman is the most important 2 drop in my opinion. Run 4 of him and always play him turn 2 if you can. It's more likely to get damage through than flying for a longer period of time. He is occasionally useful for his morph ability ability as well. Make sure you haven't played a land before you flip him so that you don't miss out if he exiles a land. He has helped me get that 4th mana after being stalled at 3 more than once. I usually take 2 land hands with this deck if I have enough 2 drop creatures. It's one of the strengths of the deck that it can stay competitive with 2 lands even if we miss a land drop or two.
Sin Prodder is also incredible and recommend running 4. Make sure to play at least 24 lands as once Sin Prodder is out, he filters lands out of the deck. This actually works to our benefit nearly every time. The card advantage from him is insane, so long as you can make it to 4 mana.
I think Unnatural Endurance is better than Sure Strike because it protects from burn spells and destroy spells while only costing 1 mana. You did make me think about Grotesque Mutation however. This could be the combat trick I need against aggro decks. It will go into the sideboard, but I imagine it will be used quite often.
Dragonlord's servant also seems like a worthy sideboard card against aggro. It stops the small attacks and helps me get out a larger creature faster.
I feel Heir of Falkenwrath just isn't good without some madness to support it. I may take out a couple in favor of Dragonlord's Servant mainboard. Fiery temper is really only in the deck to support Heir of Falkenwrath. On the other hand, I can't seem to find a decent 2 drop creature with evasion to replace it.
Playing 4 Thunderbreak Regent along with a couple of Avaricious Dragon may be worth trading Fiery Temper for. Perhaps the cmc of this deck can go up a little higher with 6 4cmc mana cost spells instead of only 4. With 6 Dragons in the deck, Draconic Roar could be played as a 4 of, taking out Fiery Temper.
Alright, I hope the fact that I took second place at FNM standard tonight will garner this deck some more attention. I went 6:3 for over all games, won three out of 4 matches. THIS DECK CAN WIN. I hope someone else will throw it together and add more commentary and results to the thread. It's also really cheap to build compared to most standard decks. Keep in mind that I started playing standard about 3 weeks ago, and it's doing well.
I lost my final match vs. White with green/blue splash humans. There were Thraben Inspector, Thalia's Lieutenant, Dusk Watch Recruiter, Sylvan Advocate, Reflector Mage in the deck. I played very well against the deck and barely lost my 3rd game due to missing my fourth land for a turn, gumming up my hand with 2 Avaricious Dragon. I was pretty close to taking first place for the night.
Sin Prodder provides insane card advantage. Keeping the cmc of the deck low is very smart with this card as most of the time it filters out land cards. This is not bad as with 3 mana, we can play at least 1 spell, sometimes 2 every turn. Removal is extremely important to this deck, especially instant speed removal. It's the gas that keeps the menace and flying creatures trucking through. I played against almost no other flying creatures, but there were a lot of a one cost white enchantment aura that grants flying and can be returned from the graveyard to play (can't remember the name.) Flying was really strong for me. Adding in 2 Olivia's Bloodsworn worked out great.
The Insolent Neonate and Village Messenger were definitely dragging the deck down. Part of the problem was not consistently having red mana on turn 1. The deck can keep a 2 land hand, if it doesn't have to play a one drop. I went up to 4 Smoldering Marshs as it's less likely than Foreboding Ruins to come into play tapped on average. Foreboding Ruins was more important with 1 drops in the deck.
The versatility of this deck is amazing and fun to play. It can hold it's own against aggro decks with Unnatural Endurance, and trading out Olivia's Bloodsworn for a creature that can block. Unnatural Endurance has been incredible and I find myself sideboarding in up to 4 count against aggressive creature decks.
The deck can adjust to control and ramp decks with Duress and Transgress the Mind in place of some smaller creatures and removal spells. I find it easy to sideboard efficiently with this build.
The changes I made were to trade 2 Avaricious Dragon for 2 Thunderbreak Regent. Too often I would find myself with 2 Avaricious Dragon's in hand, which is obviously quite bad. Also, I would sometimes not be able to play it on curve due to having to discard too many cards when it would come out. I never play Avaricious Dragon unless I need only discard 0-1 cards. Just having a 4/4 flier in the 4 cmc slot is what this deck needs more than Avaricious Dragon's card advantage.
Down one Unnatural Endurance to add another Thunderbreak Regent. More often than not, another creature is better than a combat trick. Down one Asylum Visitor to go up to 3 Fiery Temper. The fact that Fiery Temper can deal direct damage, and has a madness cost of 1 makes me feel that this card is superior. I won games by using it or Draconic Roar as a finisher more than once tonight.
Anyway, I begin to ramble. Please build the deck, at least in proxy form and play test. I think it has potential!
Hello everyone. I was able to play test against 3 decks last night with a friend who is a formidable opponent. The first 2 decks were Eldrazi decks, which made me realize that Ultimate price does have it's drawbacks in not hitting Eldrazi creatures. It was hard for me to out class Reality Smasher and Thought Knot Seer, though Transgress the Mind did a fair job. It made me want more Grasp of Darkness in the deck to combat eldrazi. This in turn required me to change the mana base.
I won a little less than half the games I played. I'm not too discouraged though, as Ultimate Price is great removal against non-eldrazi decks. The deck certainly had some good lines going for it. Sin Prodder is a great card. It did a great job filtering out my lands or refilling my hand. It's a sneaky card in that the opponent may feel comfortable taking 2 or 3 damage a couple of times in the mid-game, which is usually all the deck needs to finish them off later. Heir of Falkenwrath gives me mixed feelings sometimes. It is so great when it can get damage through on turn 3. It continues to carry through damage in those times when my opponent has enough creatures out to stall my menace creatures. However, it can also 2 for one me if I use a non-madness card to play it. At the same time, it has helped me win games when I draw it plus an extra card with Avaricious Dragon or Asylum Visitor when I'm topdecking or close to it. I'll keep running 4 and keep an eye on how well it plays.
As expected, Ire Shaman has done great. I like playing 4 of him. I find that a shaman on turn 2 with Heir turn 3 into removal turn 4 tends to win games.
The overall message that I took away from these games is that this deck, while appearing slightly aggro in nature with it's many low cmc creatures, is actually best played with a control type of mindset. I needed to be very careful when using my removal. I've realized that the deck has a snow-balling type of effect that can only be achieved by careful manipulation of what type/how many creatures the opponent has out. I'm adding more removal to the deck to aid in this. There were a number of times where having an extra removal spell instead of Insolent Neonate could have won me the game. I think is deck is a little too slow in setting up to take advantage of many 1 drop creatures.
Here's an updated version of the deck I'm going to play tonight at fnm. I've added 2 Olivia's Bloodsworn. Having out an evasive creature on turn 2 seems to be crucial to the deck. Up to 3 Grasp of Darkness. I couldn't seem to get enough removal in my games, hope this helps. Unnatural Endurance seems to do pretty well against most decks. It keeps the deck's tempo strong and can get in 2 extra damage late game to finish off an opponent.
I like the idea of something like last format's R/B Dragons decks, with evasive creatures and disruption, but I have two reservations:
1. Are the little menace guys really going to pull their weight? It seems like a bunch of the major decks right now (G/W Tokens, G/B Cryptocrats, Bant Company) wouldn't have much trouble finding two blockers.
2. Avaricious Dragon--is it really going to be better than Thunderbreak Regent? I had someone play it against me last week, and both times I happily shot it down right after he discarded his hand. I realize you have some madness cards in here, but how often will those still be in your hand with mana open when the Dragon comes down?
Also, I have a good amount of respect for Unnatural Endurance, but it doesn't seem like it lines up well against Declaration in Stone...
My goal is to have played out my entire hand before Avaricious Dragon comes down. I would almost never play an Avaricious Dragon unless I had 0-1 cards left in hand. (Except in fringe instances such as my opponent having no cards in hand.) That's why the cmc of this deck is low. The aim is to maximize mana efficiency leading up to the dragon by playing out 1-2 spells per turn. I believe that Avaricious Dragons ability to be better than thunderbreak regents in this deck. The pay off from Avaricious Dragon, though not guaranteed, is much better than Thunderbreak Regent's. I am often able to put both cards I draw off the Dragon to use, even without using madness.
Insolent Neonate has done just fine. It's amazing as a first turn play and not too bad on turn 2. Later turns he's okay too as he enables Fiery Temper and card filtering. I'm not convinced myself about Village Messenger but I'll let you know how testing goes.
I run 4 Duress in the sideboard to help against decks with a lot of removal or planeswalkers. I don't think that Unnatural Endurance's lack of ability to beat Declaration in Stone is a drawback (enough to remove it from the eck.) It's good for combat tricks and against most other removal. It has really been quite an all star in play.
Then again I don't play too much and have no idea what the current standard meta is like. This is my first standard deck ever.
I think the list has potential, but it could be more focused. I can't see the sideboard, the website formatted the list wrong as it sometimes does. The cards I see that are different than mine that I think have potential are Relentless Dead, Kolaghan's Command, and Avacyn's Judgment.
As to your question, I believe Ire Shaman is better than Abbot of Keral Keep in my buil and probably in yours. Menace becomes stronger the more creatures with menace are in a deck. The fact that abbot of Keral keep was no evasion makes it less strong in my opinion. The reason I opted for Ire Shaman in my deck is it can be a powerful play midgame. I see it as an Avaricious Dragon substitute for when we don't the ideal 4 drop. It's a card that is both aggressive as a 2 drop, and scales up late game while giving card advantage. Abbot played on turn 2 means we can't gain any benefit from it's ability, and it has no evasion. Even played mid game, say with 4 mana, it is pretty unlikely that you can cast a card revealed from Abbot.
I think the core of the deck I posted revolves around evasion and consistent early game plays. Avaricious Dragon is also the most powerful card in the deck I feel and should be played as a 4 of. You have to strive to make Avaricious Dragon powerful however. Playing Avaricious Dragon on turn 4 or 5 and only needing to discard 0-1 cards is what the deck is trying to do. Your spells have a higher cmc on average than mine which will slow the deck down. I would invest in 4 Avaricious Dragon and 4 Asylum Visitor. Asylum Visitor gives the deck further synergy by helping Heir to Falkenwrath flip over.
What this deck does best is come on strong with creatures and gain card advantage mid/late game. We are hoping to set a tempo that our opponent can't match, and be able to keep playing spells each turn the entire game.
I also recommend Insolent Neonate. This card is much better than it looks. A turn 1 or 2 Neonate is a strong play.
I recommend having 4 Foreboding Ruins over 4 Smoldering Marsh. Foreboding Ruins gives you the option for either mana turn 1. If you are playing Insolent Neonate, turn 1 red mana is essential. Also take out the Blighted Gorge. This deck should win before you have 6 mana on the battlefield. Blighted Gorge will mana screw you much more often than it dealing 2 damage to something.
I have 2 Village Messenger in there now. I'll let you know how they go. The other reason I'm worried about them is that this deck often likes to play 2 spells a turn. Only more thorough testing can tell.
You're comments are most helpful indeed! I did not read DRaconic Roar correctly the first time you posted about it. I thought that it only gained a benefit from revealing a dragon card from hand, did not see that you get the benefit if you control a dragon as well. That does make it look quite appealing. I wonder about having to 2 for 1 myself for Heir to Falkenwrath too often. I just can't find another madness card I like more than Fiery Temper to add to the deck. I also feel that taking out Heir to falkenwrath would be a grave mistake as I can't find other significant power evasion to fit that slot. I will trade 2 Fiery Wrath for Draconic roar to try out. Perhaps it's not such a big disadvatage with 4 Asylum Visitor to enable Falkenwrath. I also went up to 24 lands, this may make it easier to discard a land card to Heir without much consequence.
2 Village Messenger may be reasonable. I must admit that part of the problem was only having 2 Foreboding Ruins in the deck. It was hard to get red one drops out consistently on turn 1. Hopefully with a 4 count of Foreboding Ruins I can hit my one drops more consistently. I can see how Village Messenger could really punish a control deck. It could just be a card that gets sideboarded out against more aggressive matchups.
What do you think of Lightning Berserker as a one drop slot instead of messenger? This card has significant reach without the downside of waiting for spell free turn. I like that it can trade up with larger creatures late game.
I think it may be smarter to run 10 Mountains and 8 Swamps to further help with this.
I certainly appreciate the feed back. Even advice that is not taken is beneficial as it gives something to consider and makes me rethink my position on cards.
I ended up playing 3 copies of Village Messenger at the FNM with 4 Insolent Neonate. I too loved the idea of Village Messenger. After play testing, it was an underwhelming card. Too often it could not get through late game, becoming a dead card. This deck also needs to be playing a spell every turn in order to make Asylum Visitor and Avaricious Dragon efficient, not too mention stay aggressive. I put Ire Shaman in instead. This card is never likely to be a dead card as more creatures with menace means more damage getting through. It will always be ready to menace attack the turn after it comes out, Village Messenger almost never seemed to have that happen.
I have found Heir to Falkenwrath to be a great turn 2 play. I feel it is one of the best madness enabling cards as it costs nothing to enable madness and can get in 3 flying damage. A turn 3 Heir flip playing Fiery Temper for madness is great! I find it easy to hold onto Fiery Temper until the right time since there is other removal in the deck that costs 2. I've also cast it off of Insolent Neonate in certain situations. I may add in 1 Lightning Axe so I have 5 madness enablers. In my limited play, I can cast Fiery Temper for it's madness cost more often than not. I have thought about taking out madness altogether, but Heir is a really good card when you can cast a madness card off of it. I this deck wants lots of evasion and a 3/2 flier for 2 mana is some of the cheapest evasion in the set. In my games the Heir/Fiery Temper of neonate/fiery temper combos seemed to happen fairly frequently.
You are probably right about duress not being the best choice. Not sure about Village Messenger though, it just seemed to lack quite a bit during game play.
I just posted this updated deck list under Deck Creation Standard. Check it out there for further posts. You must keep in mind that the chances of drawing unnatural Endurance are much greater than it being revealed via sin prodder. We have 7 chances right off the bat in our opening hand. That card is usually a two for one, sometimes 3 for one if they are blocking a menace creature with 2 of their creatures.
You must also not discount that most of the time, Sin Prodder will filter lands out of the deck for us. I see this as the main advantage of the card in this deck next to it being a 3/2 menace. It works in this build because it puts on early pressure and even 1 extra damage taken from a prodder is eventually going to be too much for the opponent. The low cmc curve means Sin Prodder filtering out land/low cost spells means we are more likely to draw a fatty like Avaricious Dragon.
Anyway, check out the other thread if you feel like talking about the deck more. I did add 4 Asylum Visitor to the deck and can't wait to see how it plays out.
This deck is about putting a timer on our opponents life through evasive creatures. It can play it's hand out reasonably early thanks to a little madness support. The deck has further reach than an aggro deck however thanks to Avaricious Dragon, Sin Prodder and Asylum Visitor.
General game plan is to keep dropping creatures as fast as possible. We almost always want to attack in with creatures asap to keep building pressure on an opponent's life total. A good amount of removal spells are there to get rid of large creatures or creatures that would otherwise stop our damage from getting through. Having multiple creatures with menace prevents our opponent from ever being able to efficiently block our creatures. In this deck, menace tends to be better evasion even than flying as two creatures w/ menace out requires 4 creatures to block! Opponents must choose between attacking in or being able to block efficiently. Unnatural Endurance has been a great card I'm torn between running 4 of those instead of Duress. Duress has the advantage of being an extremely efficient turn one play that helps us get cards out of our hand to support dragon/visitor. On the other hand, Unnatural Endurance has been an incredible combat trick that is often a two for one that gets rid of an opponent's creature, while keeping ours on the board to get in more evasive damage next turn. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Avaricious Dragon tends to be a game winner when it stays around for even 1 turn. The deck tries to dump it's cards asap in order to ensure there are no valuable cards left in hand by the time it comes out turn 4 or 5. By then, we can usually play both cards in a turn given to us by the dragon leading to insane card advantage.
Sin Prodder also shines in this deck. It has been very strong and gives the opponent's tough choices. It can really start laying down serious damage on turn 4 as usually my opponents can't block it.
Asylum Visitor is a card I haven't play tested all that thoroughly yet, but it has good synergy in the deck. I'm hoping for the Asylum Visitor/sin Prodder/Avaricious dragon trifecta one of these games to wreck shop. Avaricious Dragon would ensure that Visitor's trigger will go off. Then put sin prodder's ability on the stack first, followed by Visitor. That equals Drawing 2 cards, plus either filtering a land/additional card/direct damage from prodder. Then draw an extra card on the draw step. Possible to draw 5 cards in one turn!
The great thing is, the deck doesn't need this synergy to win. It can do great just playing evasive creatures and getting in consistent damage. Having even one of these creatures stick around for 1-3 turns can win games.
I went 3:4 on actual games played and 2:2 for matches with one of them being a by. I was not too happy with the results but I'm probably just extra upset on having a by on my first chance to play standard. :frown::frown: My second match should have been mine I feel. I was playing a mill deck who milled me down exactly to the card with 1 life left and no chance of survival the next turn. I beat him reasonably easily second game. Third game I stalled at 2 mana for 4 turns! Even so I was able to more than half his life total.
The deck had problems with mana and playing out cards fast enough. I have only played modern so I'm used to always having the mana color needed on turn one. Hands in which I had access to no red mana on turn one really screwed me over with so many red one drops. I'm going to put in 4 Foreboding Ruins and go down to 2 of the dual lands to help with this. My mana situation seemed pretty screwed up most games. I found my hand getting gummed up with too many Avaricious Dragon and Incorrigible Youths. I couldn't play my cards out fast enough to justify playing Avaricious Dragon on the curve. Senseless rage was usually terrible as it just invited me to be on the wrong side of a 2 for 1. Village Messenger was no good. It was too hard to flip and not powerful enough late game. Trading Ire Shaman for that card was a bad idea. Ire Shaman would have been better in almost every situation over Village Messenger.
Sin Prodder was great! Avaricious Dragon was also great too. In one game I was able to stabilize after going down to 4 life with my opponent at 20. Dragon drew into more dragons and heir to falkenwrath. It was an amazing comeback and demonstrated the power of the card. I realize now that in order to make use of it, the deck needs to be playing a spell every turn, hopefully 2 spells some turns. I went up to 24 lands to assure this. I played down the madness spells. It also made the deck clunky and could lead to me not playing spells to try to enable madness. Murderous Compulsion was terrible. Having to wait until a creature becomes tapped is too much trouble.
Here's the new and improved deck list. I feel that this deck stands a chance to shine at FNM. Any thoughts?
I see that my deck is a bit more aggressive with the low cost creatures. Perhaps that's why we differ on Sin Prodder. He filters out lands for me and is likely to put a card into my hand that I can play. With a higher mana curver like your deck, he filters out the lands you need to cast higher cost creatures and filters out your high cost cards so you can't play them.
I can see that you do have many more cards than me that cost 2 colored mana to cast. Cinder Barrens is probably a good choice then, especially because you don't necessarily need the mana on turn 2, where as my deck NEEDS untapped mana turn 2. On the other hand, it can keep 2 land hands and win, which I like.
While I haven't been able to play test it yet, Dragonlord's Servant seems like a good choice against more aggressive decks. I've found white humans to be doing a lot of damage by turn 3 thanks to Thraben Inspector and Thalia's Lieutenent. Having a 3 toughness creature down on turn 2 that ramps into 4/4 a turn early would really help shut that down. Worth sideboarding perhaps. I'll let you know how it goes after play testing.
This looks more like a control deck, but I appreciate added ideas to the thread. Do you have trouble against aggro decks? I wonder about Duress and Mind Rot against such decks. Seems like you might run into a lot of situations where they don't have enough cards or the card type you want them to discard. I would imagine that some Ultimate Price, Roast or Grasp of Darkness would be a better choice for just a couple of those slots.
It seems incredible to me that you can run so few lands and get away with it, but I haven't played the deck. Do you have to mulligan much? I play a Modern green ramp devotion deck that runs only 20 lands, but it has 11 1 cmc ramp cards in it.
If you are looking for more madness outlets, I think Heir of Falkenwrath is one of the best. On the other hand, Sinister Concoction could be a good enabler in a control deck instead of the kill spells listed above. I definitely think you'd need more land if you add 5 cmc creatures into the mix. Thunderbreak Regent might be a better choice than either Goblin Darkdwellers of Wolf of Devil's Breach.
Personally I think discarding any more than 1 card to Avaricious Dragon is a grave mistake. Good players will likely be able to get rid of multiple cards you had be destroying your dragon before the ability goes off. It's why I'm playing more Thunderbreak Regent than Avaricious Dragon these days. Too many times I had to Avaricious Dragons in hand, or multiple other spells preventing me from playing him on turn 4.
***Edit*** What do you play Tainted Remedy and Crumble to Dust against? I haven't seen any life-gain themed decks, but I'm just getting started in Standard!
Looking forward to your report from FNM!
I would take out the Goblin Dark Dwellers for 3 more land to begin with. Also, with added land, you won't need Cinder Barrens any more (replace them with basics.) It will help speed up the deck significantly to have more lands and none that always come into play tapped. I considered Goblin Dark Dwellers for a while, but this deck can win before we get to 5 lands. It feels like a "win more" card. It also doesn't pair well with Avaricious Dragon.
Drana Liberator of Malakir is a great card for the deck. I haven't been playing it due to cost, but I can see how she'd be a great fit. Putting in 4 Ire Shamans should help the deck quite well. He will be incredible if you can play him turn 2 and Drana turn 3.
Roast looks like a good card to include in the deck. You might consider taking out at least a couple of Exquisite Firecraft for Ultimate Price or Grasp of Darkness. 2 cmc removal helps the deck out as it can lead to a creature and a removal spell turn 4.
I can see how Sin Prodder would cause lots of problems in a deck with so little mana and a higher top end of spells. He seems to work well for me, but I don't believe he's essential for the deck.
I'd love to hear more results when you have them. What does your sideboard look like?
***Edit*** Ire Shaman may end up being the most difficult card to replace during rotation if there isn't another good 2 drop with evasion in our colors. Relentless Dead could be the replacement we need. Relentless dead could probably fit into this deck too in place of another 2 drop. I just haven't wanted to spend the money on them. My goal is to keep this deck budget-ish. It's price has continued to plummet. Any thoughts on if the price will continue to drop? I think it will since the set will continued to be opened more. I may proxy this up for some play testing. Since there is no longer a need for red one drops in the deck, I'm more inclined to think the mana base can support this card.
If you are going heavier into madness, play 4 Fiery Temper and perhaps a couple of Avacyn's Judgment, at least in the sideboard.
This newer version of the deck is more Dragon-centric. I took Heir to Falkenwrath down to 3 cards and put Olivia's Bloodsworn up to 3. Heir can lead to 2 for ones against us if there isn't enough madness to support it. Smart opponents will wait until we discard to flip it, then use a kill spell on it, making it a risky play, especially if we had 2 Heirs in our hands to begin with. The fact that Olivia's can give itsself (and other vampires) haste late game is very helpful for this deck to put pressure on. Most of the creatures have low power in this deck, which means we need as many creatures getting damage through as fast as possible. I think switching out the 3 Dragonlord's Servant from the sideboard for the 3 Olivia's Bloodsworn against aggro decks will work well. White+Other another color humans are tough to beat when they play Thalia's Lieutenent. Dragonlord's Servant should go a long way in stopping early damage in these games.
Ire Shaman is the most important 2 drop in my opinion. Run 4 of him and always play him turn 2 if you can. It's more likely to get damage through than flying for a longer period of time. He is occasionally useful for his morph ability ability as well. Make sure you haven't played a land before you flip him so that you don't miss out if he exiles a land. He has helped me get that 4th mana after being stalled at 3 more than once. I usually take 2 land hands with this deck if I have enough 2 drop creatures. It's one of the strengths of the deck that it can stay competitive with 2 lands even if we miss a land drop or two.
Sin Prodder is also incredible and recommend running 4. Make sure to play at least 24 lands as once Sin Prodder is out, he filters lands out of the deck. This actually works to our benefit nearly every time. The card advantage from him is insane, so long as you can make it to 4 mana.
Here's a slightly more updated list:
3 Olivia's Bloodsworn
3 Asylum Visitor
3 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
2 Avaricious Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Unnatural Endurance
1 Fiery Temper
4 Draconic Roar
4 Ultimate Price
2 Grasp of Darkness
8 Swamp
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Foreboding Ruins
3 Dragonlord's Servant
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Duress
1 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
1 Virulent Plague
1 Dual Shot
Dragonlord's servant also seems like a worthy sideboard card against aggro. It stops the small attacks and helps me get out a larger creature faster.
I feel Heir of Falkenwrath just isn't good without some madness to support it. I may take out a couple in favor of Dragonlord's Servant mainboard. Fiery temper is really only in the deck to support Heir of Falkenwrath. On the other hand, I can't seem to find a decent 2 drop creature with evasion to replace it.
Playing 4 Thunderbreak Regent along with a couple of Avaricious Dragon may be worth trading Fiery Temper for. Perhaps the cmc of this deck can go up a little higher with 6 4cmc mana cost spells instead of only 4. With 6 Dragons in the deck, Draconic Roar could be played as a 4 of, taking out Fiery Temper.
I lost my final match vs. White with green/blue splash humans. There were Thraben Inspector, Thalia's Lieutenant, Dusk Watch Recruiter, Sylvan Advocate, Reflector Mage in the deck. I played very well against the deck and barely lost my 3rd game due to missing my fourth land for a turn, gumming up my hand with 2 Avaricious Dragon. I was pretty close to taking first place for the night.
Sin Prodder provides insane card advantage. Keeping the cmc of the deck low is very smart with this card as most of the time it filters out land cards. This is not bad as with 3 mana, we can play at least 1 spell, sometimes 2 every turn. Removal is extremely important to this deck, especially instant speed removal. It's the gas that keeps the menace and flying creatures trucking through. I played against almost no other flying creatures, but there were a lot of a one cost white enchantment aura that grants flying and can be returned from the graveyard to play (can't remember the name.) Flying was really strong for me. Adding in 2 Olivia's Bloodsworn worked out great.
The Insolent Neonate and Village Messenger were definitely dragging the deck down. Part of the problem was not consistently having red mana on turn 1. The deck can keep a 2 land hand, if it doesn't have to play a one drop. I went up to 4 Smoldering Marshs as it's less likely than Foreboding Ruins to come into play tapped on average. Foreboding Ruins was more important with 1 drops in the deck.
The versatility of this deck is amazing and fun to play. It can hold it's own against aggro decks with Unnatural Endurance, and trading out Olivia's Bloodsworn for a creature that can block. Unnatural Endurance has been incredible and I find myself sideboarding in up to 4 count against aggressive creature decks.
The deck can adjust to control and ramp decks with Duress and Transgress the Mind in place of some smaller creatures and removal spells. I find it easy to sideboard efficiently with this build.
The changes I made were to trade 2 Avaricious Dragon for 2 Thunderbreak Regent. Too often I would find myself with 2 Avaricious Dragon's in hand, which is obviously quite bad. Also, I would sometimes not be able to play it on curve due to having to discard too many cards when it would come out. I never play Avaricious Dragon unless I need only discard 0-1 cards. Just having a 4/4 flier in the 4 cmc slot is what this deck needs more than Avaricious Dragon's card advantage.
Down one Unnatural Endurance to add another Thunderbreak Regent. More often than not, another creature is better than a combat trick. Down one Asylum Visitor to go up to 3 Fiery Temper. The fact that Fiery Temper can deal direct damage, and has a madness cost of 1 makes me feel that this card is superior. I won games by using it or Draconic Roar as a finisher more than once tonight.
Anyway, I begin to ramble. Please build the deck, at least in proxy form and play test. I think it has potential!
2 Olivia's Bloodsworn
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
2 Avaricious Dragon
3 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Fiery Temper
2 Draconic Roar
4 Ultimate Price
2 Grasp of Darkness
8 Swamp
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Foreboding Ruins
3 Insolent Neonate
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Duress
1 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
1 Virulent Plague
2 Dual Shot
I won a little less than half the games I played. I'm not too discouraged though, as Ultimate Price is great removal against non-eldrazi decks. The deck certainly had some good lines going for it. Sin Prodder is a great card. It did a great job filtering out my lands or refilling my hand. It's a sneaky card in that the opponent may feel comfortable taking 2 or 3 damage a couple of times in the mid-game, which is usually all the deck needs to finish them off later. Heir of Falkenwrath gives me mixed feelings sometimes. It is so great when it can get damage through on turn 3. It continues to carry through damage in those times when my opponent has enough creatures out to stall my menace creatures. However, it can also 2 for one me if I use a non-madness card to play it. At the same time, it has helped me win games when I draw it plus an extra card with Avaricious Dragon or Asylum Visitor when I'm topdecking or close to it. I'll keep running 4 and keep an eye on how well it plays.
As expected, Ire Shaman has done great. I like playing 4 of him. I find that a shaman on turn 2 with Heir turn 3 into removal turn 4 tends to win games.
The overall message that I took away from these games is that this deck, while appearing slightly aggro in nature with it's many low cmc creatures, is actually best played with a control type of mindset. I needed to be very careful when using my removal. I've realized that the deck has a snow-balling type of effect that can only be achieved by careful manipulation of what type/how many creatures the opponent has out. I'm adding more removal to the deck to aid in this. There were a number of times where having an extra removal spell instead of Insolent Neonate could have won me the game. I think is deck is a little too slow in setting up to take advantage of many 1 drop creatures.
Here's an updated version of the deck I'm going to play tonight at fnm. I've added 2 Olivia's Bloodsworn. Having out an evasive creature on turn 2 seems to be crucial to the deck. Up to 3 Grasp of Darkness. I couldn't seem to get enough removal in my games, hope this helps. Unnatural Endurance seems to do pretty well against most decks. It keeps the deck's tempo strong and can get in 2 extra damage late game to finish off an opponent.
2 Olivia's Bloodsworn
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
4 Avaricious Dragon
3 Unnatural Endurance
2 Fiery Temper
2 Draconic Roar
4 Ultimate Price
3 Grasp of Darkness
9 Swamp
3 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Grasp of Darkness
4 Duress
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
2 Virulent Plague
2 Boiling Earth
My goal is to have played out my entire hand before Avaricious Dragon comes down. I would almost never play an Avaricious Dragon unless I had 0-1 cards left in hand. (Except in fringe instances such as my opponent having no cards in hand.) That's why the cmc of this deck is low. The aim is to maximize mana efficiency leading up to the dragon by playing out 1-2 spells per turn. I believe that Avaricious Dragons ability to be better than thunderbreak regents in this deck. The pay off from Avaricious Dragon, though not guaranteed, is much better than Thunderbreak Regent's. I am often able to put both cards I draw off the Dragon to use, even without using madness.
Insolent Neonate has done just fine. It's amazing as a first turn play and not too bad on turn 2. Later turns he's okay too as he enables Fiery Temper and card filtering. I'm not convinced myself about Village Messenger but I'll let you know how testing goes.
I run 4 Duress in the sideboard to help against decks with a lot of removal or planeswalkers. I don't think that Unnatural Endurance's lack of ability to beat Declaration in Stone is a drawback (enough to remove it from the eck.) It's good for combat tricks and against most other removal. It has really been quite an all star in play.
Then again I don't play too much and have no idea what the current standard meta is like. This is my first standard deck ever.
As to your question, I believe Ire Shaman is better than Abbot of Keral Keep in my buil and probably in yours. Menace becomes stronger the more creatures with menace are in a deck. The fact that abbot of Keral keep was no evasion makes it less strong in my opinion. The reason I opted for Ire Shaman in my deck is it can be a powerful play midgame. I see it as an Avaricious Dragon substitute for when we don't the ideal 4 drop. It's a card that is both aggressive as a 2 drop, and scales up late game while giving card advantage. Abbot played on turn 2 means we can't gain any benefit from it's ability, and it has no evasion. Even played mid game, say with 4 mana, it is pretty unlikely that you can cast a card revealed from Abbot.
I think the core of the deck I posted revolves around evasion and consistent early game plays. Avaricious Dragon is also the most powerful card in the deck I feel and should be played as a 4 of. You have to strive to make Avaricious Dragon powerful however. Playing Avaricious Dragon on turn 4 or 5 and only needing to discard 0-1 cards is what the deck is trying to do. Your spells have a higher cmc on average than mine which will slow the deck down. I would invest in 4 Avaricious Dragon and 4 Asylum Visitor. Asylum Visitor gives the deck further synergy by helping Heir to Falkenwrath flip over.
What this deck does best is come on strong with creatures and gain card advantage mid/late game. We are hoping to set a tempo that our opponent can't match, and be able to keep playing spells each turn the entire game.
I also recommend Insolent Neonate. This card is much better than it looks. A turn 1 or 2 Neonate is a strong play.
I recommend having 4 Foreboding Ruins over 4 Smoldering Marsh. Foreboding Ruins gives you the option for either mana turn 1. If you are playing Insolent Neonate, turn 1 red mana is essential. Also take out the Blighted Gorge. This deck should win before you have 6 mana on the battlefield. Blighted Gorge will mana screw you much more often than it dealing 2 damage to something.
2 Village Messenger
3 Ire Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Unnatural Endurance
2 Fiery Temper
2 Draconic Roar
4 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
8 Swamp
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Ruinous Path
4 Duress
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
2 Virulent Plague
2 Boiling Earth
2 Village Messenger may be reasonable. I must admit that part of the problem was only having 2 Foreboding Ruins in the deck. It was hard to get red one drops out consistently on turn 1. Hopefully with a 4 count of Foreboding Ruins I can hit my one drops more consistently. I can see how Village Messenger could really punish a control deck. It could just be a card that gets sideboarded out against more aggressive matchups.
What do you think of Lightning Berserker as a one drop slot instead of messenger? This card has significant reach without the downside of waiting for spell free turn. I like that it can trade up with larger creatures late game.
I think it may be smarter to run 10 Mountains and 8 Swamps to further help with this.
I ended up playing 3 copies of Village Messenger at the FNM with 4 Insolent Neonate. I too loved the idea of Village Messenger. After play testing, it was an underwhelming card. Too often it could not get through late game, becoming a dead card. This deck also needs to be playing a spell every turn in order to make Asylum Visitor and Avaricious Dragon efficient, not too mention stay aggressive. I put Ire Shaman in instead. This card is never likely to be a dead card as more creatures with menace means more damage getting through. It will always be ready to menace attack the turn after it comes out, Village Messenger almost never seemed to have that happen.
I have found Heir to Falkenwrath to be a great turn 2 play. I feel it is one of the best madness enabling cards as it costs nothing to enable madness and can get in 3 flying damage. A turn 3 Heir flip playing Fiery Temper for madness is great! I find it easy to hold onto Fiery Temper until the right time since there is other removal in the deck that costs 2. I've also cast it off of Insolent Neonate in certain situations. I may add in 1 Lightning Axe so I have 5 madness enablers. In my limited play, I can cast Fiery Temper for it's madness cost more often than not. I have thought about taking out madness altogether, but Heir is a really good card when you can cast a madness card off of it. I this deck wants lots of evasion and a 3/2 flier for 2 mana is some of the cheapest evasion in the set. In my games the Heir/Fiery Temper of neonate/fiery temper combos seemed to happen fairly frequently.
You are probably right about duress not being the best choice. Not sure about Village Messenger though, it just seemed to lack quite a bit during game play.
You must also not discount that most of the time, Sin Prodder will filter lands out of the deck for us. I see this as the main advantage of the card in this deck next to it being a 3/2 menace. It works in this build because it puts on early pressure and even 1 extra damage taken from a prodder is eventually going to be too much for the opponent. The low cmc curve means Sin Prodder filtering out land/low cost spells means we are more likely to draw a fatty like Avaricious Dragon.
Anyway, check out the other thread if you feel like talking about the deck more. I did add 4 Asylum Visitor to the deck and can't wait to see how it plays out.
Here's the list:
3 Ire Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Duress
2 Unnatural Endurance
4 Fiery Temper
4 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
9 Swamp
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Ruinous Path
3 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
2 Virulent Plague
2 Boiling Earth
This deck is about putting a timer on our opponents life through evasive creatures. It can play it's hand out reasonably early thanks to a little madness support. The deck has further reach than an aggro deck however thanks to Avaricious Dragon, Sin Prodder and Asylum Visitor.
General game plan is to keep dropping creatures as fast as possible. We almost always want to attack in with creatures asap to keep building pressure on an opponent's life total. A good amount of removal spells are there to get rid of large creatures or creatures that would otherwise stop our damage from getting through. Having multiple creatures with menace prevents our opponent from ever being able to efficiently block our creatures. In this deck, menace tends to be better evasion even than flying as two creatures w/ menace out requires 4 creatures to block! Opponents must choose between attacking in or being able to block efficiently. Unnatural Endurance has been a great card I'm torn between running 4 of those instead of Duress. Duress has the advantage of being an extremely efficient turn one play that helps us get cards out of our hand to support dragon/visitor. On the other hand, Unnatural Endurance has been an incredible combat trick that is often a two for one that gets rid of an opponent's creature, while keeping ours on the board to get in more evasive damage next turn. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Avaricious Dragon tends to be a game winner when it stays around for even 1 turn. The deck tries to dump it's cards asap in order to ensure there are no valuable cards left in hand by the time it comes out turn 4 or 5. By then, we can usually play both cards in a turn given to us by the dragon leading to insane card advantage.
Sin Prodder also shines in this deck. It has been very strong and gives the opponent's tough choices. It can really start laying down serious damage on turn 4 as usually my opponents can't block it.
Asylum Visitor is a card I haven't play tested all that thoroughly yet, but it has good synergy in the deck. I'm hoping for the Asylum Visitor/sin Prodder/Avaricious dragon trifecta one of these games to wreck shop. Avaricious Dragon would ensure that Visitor's trigger will go off. Then put sin prodder's ability on the stack first, followed by Visitor. That equals Drawing 2 cards, plus either filtering a land/additional card/direct damage from prodder. Then draw an extra card on the draw step. Possible to draw 5 cards in one turn!
The great thing is, the deck doesn't need this synergy to win. It can do great just playing evasive creatures and getting in consistent damage. Having even one of these creatures stick around for 1-3 turns can win games.
What do you think?
3 Village Messenger
1 Ire Shaman
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
3 Sin Prodder
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Senseless Rage
4 Fiery Temper
2 Ultimate Price
3 Lightning Axe
2 Murderous Compulsion
8 Swamp
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
1 Ruinous Path
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
4 Duress
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
1 Virulent Plague
3 Boiling Earth
The deck had problems with mana and playing out cards fast enough. I have only played modern so I'm used to always having the mana color needed on turn one. Hands in which I had access to no red mana on turn one really screwed me over with so many red one drops. I'm going to put in 4 Foreboding Ruins and go down to 2 of the dual lands to help with this. My mana situation seemed pretty screwed up most games. I found my hand getting gummed up with too many Avaricious Dragon and Incorrigible Youths. I couldn't play my cards out fast enough to justify playing Avaricious Dragon on the curve. Senseless rage was usually terrible as it just invited me to be on the wrong side of a 2 for 1. Village Messenger was no good. It was too hard to flip and not powerful enough late game. Trading Ire Shaman for that card was a bad idea. Ire Shaman would have been better in almost every situation over Village Messenger.
Sin Prodder was great! Avaricious Dragon was also great too. In one game I was able to stabilize after going down to 4 life with my opponent at 20. Dragon drew into more dragons and heir to falkenwrath. It was an amazing comeback and demonstrated the power of the card. I realize now that in order to make use of it, the deck needs to be playing a spell every turn, hopefully 2 spells some turns. I went up to 24 lands to assure this. I played down the madness spells. It also made the deck clunky and could lead to me not playing spells to try to enable madness. Murderous Compulsion was terrible. Having to wait until a creature becomes tapped is too much trouble.
Here's the new and improved deck list. I feel that this deck stands a chance to shine at FNM. Any thoughts?
3 Ire Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Unnatural Endurance
2 Infernal Scarring
4 Fiery Temper
4 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
9 Swamp
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Ruinous Path
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
4 Duress
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
1 Virulent Plague
3 Boiling Earth