G1: He beat me in the SSG race... He got 2 on board. I concede in respect to time to try and win game 2 & 3.
G2: We jockey back and forth for position, eventually he goes for it and I Angel's Grace him out of the game.
G3: I play my mama sources and hit him with a Silence in his end step while he has only one white mana available. This forces him to Angel's Grace. I go to my turn, untap and kill him.
ROUND 2: GR TRON
G1: Go through what seems like half my deck looking for Ad Naus or Spoils... I never find either, and I all to 2 Wurmcoils.
G2: Pretty Routine. Build up the mana and go for Ad Naus into Lab Man/Serum Visions kill. I wasn't planning on the Lab Man kill but had the mana and resources and there was no repercussions; so I went for it. I have never won with Lab Man IRL and felt like going through the paces would be nice.
G3: Turn 3 Lab Man with Pact back up. Untap, Angel's Grace/Spoils for Path to Exile, go to draw step... GGs.
ROUND 3: UR TWIN
G1: Built up a critical mass of combo pieces, was able to brute force the combo through counter spells.
G2: Boseiju is good. Resolve Ad Naus, cast 2 Duress to make sure I fade any counterfeit shenanigans, Lightning Storm him out.
ROUND 4 & 5: ID into Top 8
I'm in first place going into top 8, and my quarter finals opponent is... GR TRON! Excellent, a favorable matchup!
QUARTERFINALS: GR TRON
G1: Spoils for Ad Nauseam after casting Angel's Grace... Reveal 19 cards and exiling too many lands to kill him (11 to be exact). Ouch.
G2: Turn 3 kill off the back of turn 2 prism and a top decked SSG turn 3. Too Easy.
G3: He gets turn 3 Karn, exiling my prism. Next turn he exiles a land with Karn, deploys a new Karn, exiles another land, then Ghost Quarter's a land. Following that he exiles another land, Ghost Quarters again, and the next turn he Eye of Ugin's up an Ulamog. I lose on glorious fashion.
All in all it was a solid tournament. Wouldn't change the main deck; obviously the sideboard is always in flux. If I had made it through the Tron player, Affinity awaited me after that, and Delver in the finals (I think).
Obviously Silence come in against counter based decks. I also bring it in against Tron as well as other combo decks.
Against control I use it as a "bait" spell when the combo is assembled. It goes without saying, if it resolves, then you are good to go.
Tron, in their upkeep on the turn you think/know(based on ex-maps and sylvan scrying) they assembling Tron. One turn can often be the difference.
Combo decks, use when appropriate that will hamper their game plan or slow them down. For example silencing against Scapeshift when a search for tomorrow is coming off suspend is just straight value.
What do you usually need Slaughter Pact for? I have one in my board but I want to take it out as I have never boarded it in. I guess more importantly what do you board out for it, what matchups is it for and what creature(s) do you save it for?
I'm under the assumption we are discussing Slaughter Pact. In my opinion you can weigh slaughter pact's main deck value in relation to Spellskite's usage main deck. As it has been mentioned before you can combo with a Spellskite out, assuming you have a critical mass of lands. But, if you are playing the spoils version, this is a risky proposition if you had to use a spoils to dig for a card. I play slaughter pact main because there is quite a few decks that play 'skites main such as: Tron Variants, CoCo Variants, infect, Bogles, and affinity. It also has incidental value against problematic creatures as well.
Patrician's Scorn
+ With Angel's Grace as a combo piece it is always destroy enchantments for 0 mana. So i happens to be good response to Leyline of Sanctity.
+ PS is not targeting and destroy all enchant hate in 1 shot.
- without Grace it is response to hate for 4 Mana.
- antysynergy with Phyrexian Unlife. We can't combo on it, we will have to cast angels grase to not die.
- It will always costs 4 against Rule of Law/Eidolon.
- PS is narrow, can't deal with anything but enchantments.
Wear//Tear
+ always costs 1 mana
+ can also destroy artifacts like Chalice of the Void or Pithing Needle.
+ better against Blood Moon and Splinter Twin.
- It never won't be for free.
- inquisition can discard it ;p
I play both. Wear//Tear has good incidental value... I find Scorn to still be necessary in terms of velocity. Being able to still go off turn 3/4 with the necessary 6 mana is very good. Especially when players "hide" behind their enchantments and play more to the board/tap out more often as a result. Again, all my opinion.
What is the plan if you board in Labman? it seems a bit clunky as you need blue mana and you cannot go ff at instant speed.
on another note I tweeted to Frank Karsten to ask if he could give some numbers on other potential lose situations with Spoils and confirmed that the chance of exiling 2 of the 4 simian spirit guides is 21%. He also noted that in practice that is an overestimation as you easily can get some extra mana off other sources
I'm not 100% sure what the plan is with Laboratory Maniac as I haven't been in a position where I've needed him. But I would guess that you go off as per normal BUT you have to have an extra non red mana source available. Exile at least 3 Guides for red mana, cast a Pentad Prism using 1 red and 1 other colour then use the Prism to get a blue and use 2 red to cast the Lab Maniac then use your remaining Pentad charge for a cantrip.
I would love to know if there is a better way of doing it!
Don't forget that you can cast lab maniac one turn and in the following turn go off in your upkeep, so your draw step is the "there are no cards to draw" check.
I think that's a problem many players have with using Spoils, focusing on the worst case scenario. It's real and the odds are definitely nonzero, but the odds of getting what you need are much more in your favor. It digs for anything you want and on average goes twice as deep as Peer and three times as deep as Anticipate for a single mana. Not only that, but we don't even care about one of the drawbacks half of the time. It's totally fair if it isn't your style and I'm still deciding between both approaches, but it's definitely a legitimate strategy. Math and recent results both support that.
EDIT: One possible thing to keep in mind is Spoils is worse than the others for finding sideboard cards. It's a more all in strategy to just combo off.
Certainly can't dispute the legitimacy and success of the spoils version, that was never my intention. I'm just presenting a case for the other side of the coin, is all.
Since we seem to have some pretty savvy people to generate percentages of spoils losses. Is there a way to get the stats of being able to kill a player from 20, once spoils is used? This meaning a turn 4 kill, with 4 lands in play (needing 7 to spoils, Grace, Nauseam)? Like what is the success rate of that?
Not sure if that is possible. Thanks!
uh let's see. I assume you mean you have one of the two pieces in hand and one spoils.
you'd have 49 cards left in the deck, conditions that would make you not win are: exiling both lightning storm, exiling 2+ simian spirit guide and exiling 9+ lands (assuming 21 lands and all minus the 4 played are in the deck)
the program spits out an expected 9 cards flipped and a 26.3% fail rate. So your win chance is 74% and you can expect to lose a lot of life
having one simian spirit guide in hand improves the odds to about 79%
scrying cards to the bottom or drawing additional cards (essentially the same for spoils) doesn't improve the odds
Now those are some stats worth considering. Great job, and thank you very much!
Since we seem to have some pretty savvy people to generate percentages of spoils losses. Is there a way to get the stats of being able to kill a player from 20, once spoils is used? This meaning a turn 4 kill, with 4 lands in play (needing 7 to spoils, Grace, Nauseam)? Like what is the success rate of that?
I used to play peer through depths but it came up too often when I needed something other than an instant or sorcery. I've been loving Anticipate and not revealing the card to your opponent can be very beneficial.
My argument is vs. Spoils, not anticipate. If you are playing spoils you aren't playing Peer or Anticipate (most likely). That being said, Peer plays a much better role of being spoils than anticipate simply on the fact that you want to see the most cards. Also, rarely have I cast peer looking for a land/unlife. Almost all of the sideboard outside of the Leylines should be instants or sorceries. again, these are tailored for my comfort level and play style.
My problem with Spoils isn't the amount of cards that are revealed thusly lost, it's the quality of cards you can lose. If the third card is the one you named, but you lost both L. Storms, then it doesn't matter how efficient it was. Also, if the argument is that "most of the time I hit it around the 5th card" then that just tells me Peer Thru depths can get the same thing done without the down side (note: I am aware that sometimes it is further than the 5th card, and spoils gets you a win where an EOT peer can not.)
That being said, I am on a shuffle-less peer thru depths version, and I feel that it is more to my play style/comfort level than a spoils version. I'll try and get some results posted soon.
As a personal opinion, I still want Slaughter Pact. I am fully aware of how to "work around" the 'skites with Lightning Storm, but more often than not, you have to discard 8-10 lands to the Storm, and won't have enough lands to redirect the 7-9 triggers as well as any lands they may have in hand.
It is pivotal to know how to navigate such situations though. Thanks for the reposting of the procedure.
Against Stony Silence is ok, but against Rule of Law/Eidolon is terrible.
What do u think about Grixis Twin match up? Straight UR version was good for us, but discard + Command make life harder.
Agreed. Fortunately Rule of Law has seen (slightly) less play.
As for Grixis Delver, I believe this matchup to be less than favorable. Leylines out of the board play a pivotal role games 2/3. With a bit of jockey-ing and careful casting I certainly don't think the matchup is unwinnable by any means though.
Serum Visions costs 1 mana, not 2. It's huge when u also want casting other spells in the same turn like Unlife, Pentad Prism or sideboard cards.
Why people are playing Patrician's Scorn? it' great against Leyline, but terrible against Stony Silence and Rule of Law effects. Wear//Tear is much better. It costs 1 mana not 0, but it can destroy everything for 1 mana an has bonus in destroying artifacts. For me that's huge.
Scorn Is fine against Stony silence, Not ideal obviously. You can still go grace, scorn, then pop artifacts, and combo out. That being said, I would like to have both in my side. I really like your idea on wear//tear.
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Pure Intentions
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Silence
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
So far this list works very good for me. 2 Mystical Teachings is right number - when u draw 1 per game they are insane, but 2 of them is too much. And argument that Teachings are too slow is bad - more decks are not so blazing fast than they are. For faster archetypes we can put Teachings to sideboard. And still there are 2 options to cast then on turn 3, which is nice.
Mikokoro is great - it fights Liliana and lets us dig a little in case of problem with finding combo.
Anticipate is much much better than Peer Through Depths. Ability to find lands/ramp/Unlife is more powerfull than diggind 2more cards only for instants and sorceries.
I'm still working on sideboard. Pure Intentions is my fifth Leyline with extra value againt Liliana. Meddling Mage is MVP in nearly all nonbolt match ups. We can name opponents' combo cards, problematic countermagic (say hello to Counterflux) or good value cards like Collected Company. And it attacks - important in longer games when we play a lot of lands to play. Wear // Tear is my Destroy Leyline effect with upside. Being able to destroy Eidolons, Rule of Law, Stony Silence for 1 mana and occasionaly artifects like Chalice for 2 is huge. Paths is my choice to fight aggro decks becouse of flexibility. I can side it in against creature combo decks like Infect, Affinity, Amulet and Twin but also against Delve mid range and BGx (killing early Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant is great). I'm considering playing 4th blue Pact instead of Silence. Also maybe third Meddling Mage in place of Black Pact. O maybe add third Phyrexian Unlife, it's important to have it on turn 3 in some match ups. I have to test it more.
What u guys think about my version?
Great breakdown, here are my opinions on the list, based on personal preference:
-Gemstone Mine is in my opinion the best land in the deck... I always want 4 copies
-No Boseiju?
-Seeing more cards with Peer gives it an edge in my book over anticipate. Going through the deck at the highest velocity is typically best.
-Tolaria West/Mystical Teachings are too slow. Most matches now do end before their value can be used between infect/burn/affinity/twin
-Pure Intentions seems insane, I'm going to test that out
-A mass removal spell in the board for creature based Aggro decks may be worth looking into
-Patriarch's Scorn is the best Leyline trump
ROUND 1: MIRROR MATCH
G1: He beat me in the SSG race... He got 2 on board. I concede in respect to time to try and win game 2 & 3.
G2: We jockey back and forth for position, eventually he goes for it and I Angel's Grace him out of the game.
G3: I play my mama sources and hit him with a Silence in his end step while he has only one white mana available. This forces him to Angel's Grace. I go to my turn, untap and kill him.
ROUND 2: GR TRON
G1: Go through what seems like half my deck looking for Ad Naus or Spoils... I never find either, and I all to 2 Wurmcoils.
G2: Pretty Routine. Build up the mana and go for Ad Naus into Lab Man/Serum Visions kill. I wasn't planning on the Lab Man kill but had the mana and resources and there was no repercussions; so I went for it. I have never won with Lab Man IRL and felt like going through the paces would be nice.
G3: Turn 3 Lab Man with Pact back up. Untap, Angel's Grace/Spoils for Path to Exile, go to draw step... GGs.
ROUND 3: UR TWIN
G1: Built up a critical mass of combo pieces, was able to brute force the combo through counter spells.
G2: Boseiju is good. Resolve Ad Naus, cast 2 Duress to make sure I fade any counterfeit shenanigans, Lightning Storm him out.
ROUND 4 & 5: ID into Top 8
I'm in first place going into top 8, and my quarter finals opponent is... GR TRON! Excellent, a favorable matchup!
QUARTERFINALS: GR TRON
G1: Spoils for Ad Nauseam after casting Angel's Grace... Reveal 19 cards and exiling too many lands to kill him (11 to be exact). Ouch.
G2: Turn 3 kill off the back of turn 2 prism and a top decked SSG turn 3. Too Easy.
G3: He gets turn 3 Karn, exiling my prism. Next turn he exiles a land with Karn, deploys a new Karn, exiles another land, then Ghost Quarter's a land. Following that he exiles another land, Ghost Quarters again, and the next turn he Eye of Ugin's up an Ulamog. I lose on glorious fashion.
All in all it was a solid tournament. Wouldn't change the main deck; obviously the sideboard is always in flux. If I had made it through the Tron player, Affinity awaited me after that, and Delver in the finals (I think).
List for reference: NegNaus
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/92529
Against control I use it as a "bait" spell when the combo is assembled. It goes without saying, if it resolves, then you are good to go.
Tron, in their upkeep on the turn you think/know(based on ex-maps and sylvan scrying) they assembling Tron. One turn can often be the difference.
Combo decks, use when appropriate that will hamper their game plan or slow them down. For example silencing against Scapeshift when a search for tomorrow is coming off suspend is just straight value.
I'm under the assumption we are discussing Slaughter Pact. In my opinion you can weigh slaughter pact's main deck value in relation to Spellskite's usage main deck. As it has been mentioned before you can combo with a Spellskite out, assuming you have a critical mass of lands. But, if you are playing the spoils version, this is a risky proposition if you had to use a spoils to dig for a card. I play slaughter pact main because there is quite a few decks that play 'skites main such as: Tron Variants, CoCo Variants, infect, Bogles, and affinity. It also has incidental value against problematic creatures as well.
I play both. Wear//Tear has good incidental value... I find Scorn to still be necessary in terms of velocity. Being able to still go off turn 3/4 with the necessary 6 mana is very good. Especially when players "hide" behind their enchantments and play more to the board/tap out more often as a result. Again, all my opinion.
Don't forget that you can cast lab maniac one turn and in the following turn go off in your upkeep, so your draw step is the "there are no cards to draw" check.
Certainly can't dispute the legitimacy and success of the spoils version, that was never my intention. I'm just presenting a case for the other side of the coin, is all.
Now those are some stats worth considering. Great job, and thank you very much!
Not sure if that is possible. Thanks!
My argument is vs. Spoils, not anticipate. If you are playing spoils you aren't playing Peer or Anticipate (most likely). That being said, Peer plays a much better role of being spoils than anticipate simply on the fact that you want to see the most cards. Also, rarely have I cast peer looking for a land/unlife. Almost all of the sideboard outside of the Leylines should be instants or sorceries. again, these are tailored for my comfort level and play style.
That being said, I am on a shuffle-less peer thru depths version, and I feel that it is more to my play style/comfort level than a spoils version. I'll try and get some results posted soon.
Thanks!
It is pivotal to know how to navigate such situations though. Thanks for the reposting of the procedure.
Agreed. Fortunately Rule of Law has seen (slightly) less play.
As for Grixis Delver, I believe this matchup to be less than favorable. Leylines out of the board play a pivotal role games 2/3. With a bit of jockey-ing and careful casting I certainly don't think the matchup is unwinnable by any means though.
Scorn Is fine against Stony silence, Not ideal obviously. You can still go grace, scorn, then pop artifacts, and combo out. That being said, I would like to have both in my side. I really like your idea on wear//tear.
Great breakdown, here are my opinions on the list, based on personal preference:
-Gemstone Mine is in my opinion the best land in the deck... I always want 4 copies
-No Boseiju?
-Seeing more cards with Peer gives it an edge in my book over anticipate. Going through the deck at the highest velocity is typically best.
-Tolaria West/Mystical Teachings are too slow. Most matches now do end before their value can be used between infect/burn/affinity/twin
-Pure Intentions seems insane, I'm going to test that out
-A mass removal spell in the board for creature based Aggro decks may be worth looking into
-Patriarch's Scorn is the best Leyline trump
Those are just my thoughts. Keep on keeping on!