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  • posted a message on The Rabiah Scale.
    Quote from Saandro »
    Tldr of Kamigawa: ''It has a high rank because it wasn't popular (citation needed) and didn't sell too well. We might revisit it if we discard everything good about it and go with animes and ninjas because they are what's popular and marketable these days.''

    I hate how Maro is such a biased salesman behind his rational facade. For example the new worlds all rank rather low with very questionable reasoning on some of them. Can't wait for 2025, when he will be able to talk about why Amonkhet or Ixalan failed and how the new return to Ixalan will totally fix all that and be super special awesome!


    First of, and I will fight for that, Amonkhet was awesome. Being a small plane with a single self-contained culture is not always the bad thing some of you are trying to portray it as. In this case it was even justified, since the plane is described as being nearly dead and having suffered from a catastrophe way before Bolas got his hands on it. There just isn't much left of it. (I'm actually mad about Maro seemingly thinking that it blew up at the end. I mean, there were survivors and Hazoreth still lives as well...) I would also argue that worlds with actual gods which interact more or less directly with the populace would pretty much force the cultures on these planes to be relatively homogenous, so I don't see the problem with Theros and Amonkhet not having the varied cultures of Tarkir or Dominaria. Ixalans problems were mostly about the moral superficiality, NOT the actual worldbuilding, which was in my opinion pretty well done. Not my favorite world, but still.

    Now Kamigawa. I personally liked it. But from what I can gather, many of the Kamigawa fans here seriously try to downplay how much even the flavor and worldbuilding was rejected when it came out. You might lament the fact that taking out the spirits etc. and introducing more popular japanese tropes into it is making it more superficial, but remember, tropes are not bad. In fact quite a few things in Kamigawa were so far away from the actual japanese mythology that the connection felt kind of forced (I don't really see much of a connection between the kitsune in the legends and those on the plane for example, except for that they resemble foxes). And let's face it, many parts of Kamigawa simply failed. I'm not even agreeing with it having "varied cultures", since everything is very clear cut between color lines in that regard. That's the thing I personally liked the least about it: It felt small and very much divided into cultural units. You had humans from each color, one nonhuman species for each color, one location for each color. Not the most creative way of worldbuilding. So I get Maro. Still, I think a compromise could be made to "modernize" Kamigawa without losing too much of its identity and that this would be worth exploring at least in a supplemental set.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on The Rabiah Scale.
    I find it great that most planes seem to have at least a few factors that make them interesting enough to at least think about returning there (Exceptions being Mercadia, Ulgrotha and Rabiah). And it's interesting to see the different opinions on certain plains. For example, I absolutely dislike pre-Eldrazi Zendikar. Adventure world is just so incredibly unappealing for me. Eldritch horror though, even if it wasn't handled particularly well? Count me in (though I must say that Shadows over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon were soo much better in exploring cosmic horror than Rise of the Eldrazi or BfZ, it's not even funny). I didn't like Lorwyn and though I liked certain cards of Shadowmoor, I disliked that it mishandled the color pie and hybrid color to such a degree. The story was also not really that engaging in my opinion. I'm conflicted about Kamigawa. I liked the world, but it also felt kind of limited and too neatly divided by color pie allegiance (I'm still unsure whether the giant waterfall around Minamo actually connects to an ocean and everything we've seen of Kamigawa plays only on one continent or if the world is actually THAT small). I liked the flavor, but the mechanics were mostly either catastrophic or forgettable. I want to know how the world has changed in the last few thousand years (something Maro didn't acknowledge, of course they can change it radically, it has been some time since the original set), but at the same time it won't have any character aside from Tamiyo which I would like to see more of. I think the best thing to do would be to use it as a setting for a supplemental set.
    I really loved both Amonkhet and Theros. I know that some didn't like Bolas omnipresence on Amonkhet, but I think the egyptian flavor still shined through and the destruction of Nakthamun opens the possibility for a restart for the survivors. Tarkir should return as much as possible to its Wedge roots next time. That and not the dragons made the world interesting.
    So in the end, planes I would like to see more of: Takir, Theros, Amonkhet, Ravnica, Innistrad (I hope they'll finally remember that there is another continent there as well next time).
    Planes I don't really care for (aside from the really bad ones): Regatha (unless they make it a hell of a lot more interesting), Zendikar, Lorwyn, Shandalar (same as Regatha).
    The rest I'm just indifferent or conflicted about at the moment.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Urabrask »
    So we got the second new "leader" of a Bolas guild confirmed.

    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/802091-rna-pro-tour-playmat

    The question is in which direction will she steer the guild? Unlike Dovin Baan she does not seem to fit into the guild she is taking over.

    "Kaya is a firm believer that life is for the living. The living should make the most of their lives and pursue what they want while they've still got time, and find their own peace before death. If you die with unfinished business, well, that's probably your fault. And if it's not...perhaps she could help you...for a price." - From the Mothership


    I think Bolas just paid her to get rid of the Ghost Council (which fits her perfectly), then take over. She does seem to like money (even if she has to do morally questionable stuff to get it), and the Orzhov guild in the end is all about gathering as much money and power as possible via any means necessary. So I do see her fitting nicely... after a small change in the guilds leadership.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    I can get why Tajic become more zealous, what i don't get is why Aurelia become more soft, since not being soft was the point of all her character


    She hasn't gotten soft, she just questioned her own war-oriented motives after the whole Maze-situation and her interactions with Gideon (he did criticize her mostly in flavor texts as far as I remember, but most likely his actions moved her more than his criticisms anyway). You might say that's not an explanation, but I could see her slowly coming around and realizing that it's more important to help the people instead of making their lifes worse through constant warfare. But that's just my opinion.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Flisch »
    It's really weird they don't play up those "mundane" functions of the guilds, seeng as Ravnica is an urban plane sorely in need of some proper urban flavour.


    I am going to say that is a function of the constant swings to keep Ravnica "not peaceful"

    Before RTR the Implication was that the vast majority of people were in Guilds, that the Guilds were the entire foundation of the plane..then in RTR suddenly "Oh half the population is Guildless." before the "Entire plane is a city, the wilds are parts of the city that turned into slums and were abandoned." and now it is.."On no the City of Guilds was just this main section."

    and that isn't even getting into things like "When we left at the end of Ravnica 1 we had the Ghosts to deal with, Teysa setting up a new Guildpact with Feather and Jarod." and come RTR "None of that Matters, Jarod is apparently became Evil off Screen..and Teysa and Feather just don't matter."


    Actually, most of the things you said didn't work out like you described. People seem to have weird ideas about the first Ravnica. The whole Guildpact book was about a "not urbanized" part of the plane (Utvara) and the efforts of Teysa to make it prosperous for her own gains. So no, it was clear from the start that natural wilds are more or less gone, but desolate places or areas were no one can live are quite common, as are great parks and nature reserves in the middle of the city and (as you said) slums. Neither RtR nor GoR contradict this. It was also never directly stated how much of Ravnicas population is part of a guild, the implication was only present since the card game mostly focused on guild members and the books were centered around protagonists that were also guild members. Even so I'm pretty sure that it was stated quite a few times in the books that not everyone is a member of a guild but still has to affiliate with them (through their employers for example). That was Agrus Kos position in (yet again) the Guildpact novel, he wasn't directly a member of the Orzhov, but he did work for one and therefore was connected to the guild.

    The only actual big change that they didn't get too much into was Agyrem sealing itself of from Ravnica because of the Mending. I don't really see the problem with it though. It had a logical explanation for why it happened and was even foreshadowed (since Agyrem only really existed in the first place because the rifts sealed Ravnica from the rest of the multiverse). You might not like it, but that doesn't make it objectively bad or inconsistent.
    Teysas guildpact just failed. Not the greatest continuation of this, but it never had any binding power (and sadly not many guilds were capable or interested in upholding it). Jarod didn't get any screentime after becoming a lich, which is the actual problem. It was hinted at in Dissension that this change could have an impact on his mental state, so who knows whether he has actually fallen to evil. Feather on the other hand, that I give you. They hinted at her being important for Lazavs plans... and then never mentioned her again until now. For all we know she is still in stasis. Teysa does matter, she was part of RtRs plot and she still has her own ongoing plotline about trying to finally bring down the Obszedat.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Onering »
    Quote from Gutterstorm »
    Shades of Grey in a Gatewatch magic story?


    In fairness, if any guild is evil it’s the Orzhov.


    The Rakdos would like a word...

    Every black aligned guild was concepted as evil. Orzhov was concepted as Lawful Evil, but their original iteration was much subtler. It looks like literally everyone sees through their front now and their territory is openly dystopian, but that's a change from the original block. In the books, they were portrayed more like the romanticized conception of the mob, bad guys who you could deal with and who followed rules. They were portrayed as providing a number of essential services that everyday Ravnican's utilized, from defense attorneys to banks to business organization. Their dark side wasn't as in the open, and wouldn't always bite you. You didn't become a debt slave just from associating with the Orzhov. They had their banks, then they had their loan sharks. They served as the primary religion in Ravnica, with the Selesnyans and Rakdos only serving their own guilds, and the dark side was that the religion was a complete sham that took in tons of donations and spent it on themselves. It wasn't a religion that just made all its followers debt slaves, its corruption was more like that of the medieval Catholic church or modern televangelists. They sold indulgences that did nothing and asked for tithes, and they got the followers to buy into it, but it wasn't debt, it was free giving based on a con, simple charlatanism. Yes, the Orzhov always had debt slaves, always found some desperate fools to take out a predatory loan or rely on "charity" that they'd owe for, but they also had more legitimate services that provided cover, as many ordinary Ravnicans could interact with them and walk away thinking they were all right. The current way they are portrayed, as purely mustache twirling caricatures that use every interaction to enslave people to eternal debt is stupid.

    The Rakdos were concepted as chaotic evil, and they live up to it. They've also suffered, however, from a change in characterization from the first block that's really freaking dumb. They always had the Insane Clown Posse infernal circus thing, but it was a side aspect originally. The main service they provided were as miners toiling in terrible conditions mining ore and other valuables and smelters. The rest of Ravnica could stick them down there and mostly not have to deal with them, which is why they were tolerated, and the Rakdos were free to murder and torture each other without interference (and didn't care about the terrible working conditions). On the side they'd provide some dark circuses, but those were usually hidden like the Kumite from Blood Sport and not the accepted form of entertainment for the average Ravnican, present on theatre row.

    The Dimir are neutral evil, they don't care about order or chaos, they just care about being in control and use both to achieve that. They certainly are, and the neo Dimir are actually pretty interesting, as they've found a way to exist withing the system rather than focusing on tearing it down, and play a role in the system (Private detectives, tutors, private spies and assassins, etc.). Its a little dumb that the latest block is trying to have it both ways, portraying it as if most of Ravnica still doesn't believe in them while also have them operating brazenly. The OG Dimir were really deep in the shadows, a small guild of isolated cells working patiently on the fringes in pursuit of one goal and most of Ravnica thinking there were only 9 guilds, and the RTR Dimir were portrayed as being much more in the open, with their sigil added back into representations of all the guilds, everyone aware of the role they played in the original block, and them offering their services openly, and running in the damn Dragon's Maze! Saying that they are still up to all that but most people view them the same way they viewed the OG Dimir (as a myth) is really dumb.

    The Golgari were concepted as neutral evil, predatory outcasts with an internal caste system, a guild based on Darwinian struggle. They are focused on personal advancement within the guild at the expense of other members, and the advancement of the guild at the expense of the outside world. Its a straightforward form of evil, ambition mated to ruthlessness, and the sort that's clearly evil yet understandable and not particularly malicious. You understand that the Golgari are trying to get ahead by any means, and they might make you a zombie, but you know they aren't going to wipe your memories because you may have overheard a secret code or mutilate you for *****s and giggles, and most of their evil ***** is inflicted on each other.


    Hm, I don't know. The guilds have changed, true, but I find it highly debatable whether this change was a flanderization. Remember that the original guilds were still bound by a magical guildpact and when that one vanished they were free to break from their traditional roles/ free to exploit their territories to a much higher degree. I mean, take the Orzhov for example: Aside from Teysa and the bold that befriended Agrus Kos, all of them were portrayed as horrible, greedy and exploitative. In the original books there was much less focus on their religious side (which was a scam anyway) but on their greed and lust for more money and power. So I don't really see that much of a change to now. The one in this story was a bit over the top perhaps, but still, it makes sense that the Orzhov would be one of the guilds that would use the lack of a binding guildpact to their advantage as much as possible (we also never saw the debtor side of the Orzhov in the original books, so it's kind of hard to tell whether they weren't always like that). I mean, they even have a room in which guildpact magic is not binding, so there's that. The only thing that I would kind of wish for is that their roles as defendants would get more of a spotlight, but that was more or less a side note in the original too.

    The Rakdos had a much less interesting characterization in the original, being more or less a buch of sado-masochists who love to kill and maim for their own pleasure. The whole "slave and mining" business only really appeared in the books (once) and wasn't fleshed out itself until RtR. You couldn't tell from the cards that they had ANY really worthwhile task that benefited the rest of Ravnica, even the entertainment aspect was mostly sidelined, so putting it in the forefront and establishing that the guild actually does provide some sort of benefit for Ravnicans society was a step in the right direction.

    The Dimir aren't seen as a myth anymore, from what I can tell they are seen more like an open secret. Everyone kind of knows that they exist, but no one who doesn't work with or against them wants to acknowledge it (and even they keep it very hush hush) probably out of fear of what that guild could do to them (losing your memory seems to be the best option here). Additionally no one really knows that much about them. There's probably Dimir propaganda involved to make the guild look even more threatening than it already is.

    The Golgari actually didn't really change much between the three blocks they were in.

    I would argue that every guild is somewhat evil, some more than others and some in certain aspects more than in others. The old Simic, Azorius and even parts of the Selesnya (remember the Silentmen?) were kind of horrible, same goes to a lesser degree for the Boros, Gruul and Izzet. All of these got better when RtR came around (aside from the Boros, who got worse and then better in Guilds of Ravnica), though all kept a certain shade of grey at least.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Urgh, it's not a retcon, as I said before, the original book series already discussed the merits of the guildpact and it was already criticized back then. It WAS a good idea... once, at a time when everyone was constantly at each others throats and the whole plane was a giant war zone. But its magical nature enforced inequalities (like the Gruul losing nearly any standing in the urbanizing society of Ravnica, but being powerless to change that society in any way since their specific part of the pact lost all meaning over the years and therefore denied them most of its power) and stabilized Ravnica by putting a very static and exploitable system in place that had a build-in self-destruct button (the Dimir). The failsafe wasn't Azor finally thinking about further consequences, it had to be part of the system since he knew (and in fact planned) that the Dimir would one day destroy the original pact. Sure, every system is flawed, which is why democratic nations for example change many of their laws every few years or so, instead of keeping up the status quo even though the world changes around them. That was Azors mistake and he did it over and over again. The sentence might have been harsh, but from what I remember Azor also stated that any failure of one of his systems was the fault of the people he gave it to, declining to take responsibility or at least do something about it, worse, refusing to learn from his mistake. You are free to argue that this didn't give Jace or Vraska the right to punish him this way. I'm just saying though that no retcon is involved here. It also really looks like you'll get your wish, Jaces absence seems to have taken quite the toll on Lavinia at the very least. I'd be surprised if he didn't get a beating by someone because of his irresponsibility.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from OathboundOne »
    Dovin is next up, he was mean to Chandra so he must be "EVIL".


    Honestly i felt they did the same to Azor. He had to appear evil and unconsiderate just because... he likes rules and Jace need his spotlight?
    Suddenly the guildpact is evil, even if it lasted 10k years and helped Ravnica become one of the most advanced plane, and suddenly also we learn that Azor screwed many planes, all of them off-screen and without giving details, just to paint him as the bad guy.

    Meanwhile, Jace never stays on Ravnica and that apparently means that the guildpact doesn't work. Nice way to screw up a plane Jace.

    Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.


    Now to be fair, the guildpact was always portrayed as being flawed. That was the whole point of the first Ravnica block. I also wouldn't say that Azor was a bad guy, he is just more interested in setting up rule systems than seeing the system through or changing it if necessary. Or to say it differently: He is arrogant, believing his own systems to be perfect (a trait that UW characters often have). He is not malicious nor even particularly negligent, he just thinks that once he has established his perfect societies, there won't be any need to check up on them again. The reason this worked on Ravnica for so long was because of the strong law magic that was fundamental to the plane itself, making the guildpact magically binding (but ripe for breaking down once Szadek had found the weakness in the pacts internal logic). Without such a strong magical basis Azors societies (like any society in real life that just wants to keep up the status quo forever) is bound to degrade in some form or the other. To make this short, Azor isn't evil, in fact he really wants the best for everyone. The problem is that his idea of "the best" is an unchanging, "perfect" society and he is unable to see past his own hubris in that regard.
    His backup plan of putting all responsibility of the guildpact on a single person is just another example of it. Remember that the alternative to Jace becoming the guildpact in that situation was Supreme Verdict, or direct war between the guilds. But even if it hadn't been Jace but another Ravnican this plan would have put insane amounts of pressure on a single person, the responsibility for an entire plane. As I've argued before, Jace being a planeswalker just made the problems with this approach more apparent, it wasn't the main cause of them.

    Dovin believes that the law should be above everything else, so even if a law is unjust it has to be followed and at best should be changed via long bureaucratic processes. That also doesn't mean that he is evil per se, but it is easy to mislead and manipulate such a character, and I guess this is how Bolas will get to him. Again, this doesn't make him bad, in fact he was the one who arrested Baral when that guy stepped out of the line, so he does have (at the very least) a righteous streak about him.

    Jarad is a bit tricky since we didn't see much of him or how becoming a lich changed him (it was implied at the end of Dissension that it changed his personality to a degree). I agree though that neutral evil doesn't really fit either way though.

    I don't really see at which point Liliana got a free pass "because she boned Jace". At this point no one trusts her anymore (certainly not Jace nor Nissa) with (ironically enough) Gideon accepting her the most, and only because he thinks that they need her against Bolas. Jaces relationship to her was always portrayed as toxic. She is constantly controlled or manipulated by other entities, no matter how much she hates it or tries to break free, she has barely any relationship left to anyone and everything she does to finally get some control of her life turns against her, including her own manipulation of others. She might not have been put on trial for her actions yet, but that doesn't mean that she isn't paying a (well-deserved) price for them.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Identities of Shards
    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from KarnTerrier »
    I'd say Phyrexia definitely still has some of that White/Black tribalism. Also, it's only the Red faction of New Phyrexia that was forced into hiding, the Black faction submitted to the White faction's rule. That's why Atraxa is every color but Red, she was created by all four of the remaining Praetors after they'd forged their alliance. I actually see New Phyrexia as being four-colored, you can basically view it as combining Esper-style technocracy with Bant-style collectivism with Sultai-style expansionism.

    On a semi-related note, I originally thought about listing the Borg Collective as an example of a Bant-colored organization, but I wasn't sure whether it should be considered White/Blue/Green (because it seeks to incorporate everyone into its 'perfect' society) or Blue/Black/Green (because it seeks to consume and absorb everyone else that exists, making everything into a part of itself). Mark Rosewater originally listed them as typical Blue/Black expansionist conquerors, but later considered them an example of the Green/Black plague-bearer archetype, and admitted that they could be seen as White/Green collectivists if you assumed their motives were benevolent (i.e. if they genuinely believed that the people and species they assimilated were better off as part of the Collective). Ultimately I'd say that, like the New Phyrexians, they're White/Blue/Black/Green. Given that the Borg's defining trait is that they completely lack individuality, I'd say that having them be Non-Red fits perfectly.

    I don't think the Borg understand themselves as benevolent bringers of perfection as evidenced by the idea that they see some species as unfit to "enhance the collective". They are, even to themselves, just an organism that grows by incorporating other things into itself in order to grow and survive, not to grant those beings a better life.


    It has been some time since I saw Star Treks Borg episodes, but if I remember correctly, they are definitely seeing themselves as "bringer of perfection", they are usually just not very preachy about it (and why should they?). At least the Borg Queen made several statements in this direction. They assimilate others without making moral arguments for it because in their mind they just know that they are right, and everyone else will just see it as they see it once they are part of the collective. I think arguments can be made about the Borg being any color other than red, but I would actually say that black is also a weaker influence since they reject individualism so utterly.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on I absolutely hate draft in this game
    Yeah, the M19 draft was fine I guess. I think my real issue with Arena drafting is that the cost seems way out of line with the experience. I dont get an hour a day to play, so it takes me longer to save I guess. But regardless: drafting in Arena is best of 1, so one *****ty mana flood game and you've already down to 0-1. And that drafting costs MORE than the cost of three packs (I know the packs have more cards, but its not like they have more rares) which is stupid. And youre not playing against people who draft from the same pool as you (which is kinda the whole point of "DRAFT"), so getting crap luck with the packs just means you and you alone are screwed over, your opponent may have had a much better pool.


    Yeah, I get that certain limitations prevent them from implementing best-of-three games or sharing the same pool with the players you are up against, but the cost really feels unnecessarily high, especially for players who want to play but don't have time to grind gold every day. Personally I liked M19 even less than Dominaria (perhaps it's just me, but nearly everyone I played against used the same deck, WB lifegain, which made the whole thing pretty boring). Guilds is at the very least a bit more varied.
    Posted in: MTG Arena
  • posted a message on Exert and Vigilance
    Quote from The Fluff »
    Hi, just want to be sure on this. Using "exert" causes the creature to not untap during next untap step. If I equip a batterskull to glorybringer.. can the dragon "exert" every turn now, since it no longer taps to attack?


    Indeed it can!
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Urabrask »
    Someone on reddit posted a few tidbits from the guildmasters guide.

    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9vm1uy/vorthos_lore_tidbits_from_guildmasters_guide_to/

    • The current Ravnica year is is given as 10,076, placing the events of the original Ravnica block 76 years in the past. Ravnican years are 365 days long, with months being a scrambled version of the Gregorian calendar
    • Jace became Living Guildpact in 10,075
    • The book sort of implies that the Guildpact magic does not function when Jace is off-plane, but it's still not clear
    • Ravnican currency is called zibs and zinos, with 100 zibs making up 1 zino. 10 zibs will buy you a cup of coffee. The Azorius, Boros (???), and Orzhov all mint coins
    • The 10 districts are what originally made up Ravnica City. Other districts are different cities that eventually sprawled into the great city
    • The number of other districts is stated as "unknown", as are the borders of Ravnica (if there are any)
    • There is no large-scale agriculture. Small gardens and rot farms manage to provide all food
    • About half of Ravnica's population is guildless, and the proportion gets higher the farther you get away from the city's center and into "rural" areas. There are also discrepancies in race: nearly all elves belong to one of the guilds, but nearly all goblins are guildless
    • There is a 10-foot-tall statue of Agrus Kos in Precinct Two. It's become a meeting place for veterans, the mob, and Dimir spies
    • There is a Prism University that teaches magic and is--at least nominally--unaffiliated with any guild
    • Mizzium has weird properties: it has an extremely high melting point, but is also often found in a liquid form at room temperature
    • The Azorius have "precognitive mages", which are basically exactly Minority Report
    • Lavinia is freaked out by Jace's disappearance, but refuses to take on his duties as she doesn't believe that is lawful
    • For funsies, Isperia is listed as Lawful Neutral, Aurelia as Lawful Good, Lazav as Neutral Evil, Jarad as Neutral Evil, Borborygmos as Chaotic Neutral, Niv-Mizzet as Chaotic Neutral, the Obzedat as Lawful Evil, Rakdos as Chaotic Evil, Trostani as Neutral Good, and Zegana as Lawful Neutral
    • The Rakdos appear to have a satirical puppet show about Jace, so that's awesome
    • There's a good amount of new art, including what appears to be a 3-story-tall Selesnyan elemental fighting a similarly-sized Simic experiment like kaiju

    Images he refers too:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/mAM2jRV
    https://imgur.com/gallery/R84BxMI


    Well, the Boros do own quite a few foundries, so I can see them minting coins as one of their side duties (perhaps that's how they get the economic power to back their army?). Interesting that certain races are more inclined to be part of a guild than the others. I'd guess from what we've seen so far that Angels, Merfolk, Kraul and Gorgons for example tend to be guild-members, while Sphinxes, Viashino, Demons and Minotaurs are more often independent. Humans (as always) are the middle ground.
    Poor Lavinia. It's hard to be lawful in such a situation. I wouldn't even put the blame on Jace to be honest, the problem (just like with the original guildpact) is that Azor's systems are often terribly flawed in the long run (Jace being a planeswalker just made the problems more obvious in a shorter amount of time). Looking forward to that Guildmasters Guide!
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Onering »
    Quote from Saandro »
    Muh social issues on Ravnica /facepalm
    Quote from ChrisBP7 »
    Quote from Saandro »
    Muh social issues on Ravnica /facepalm


    What is facepalm-worthy about this discussion? Even in the first Ravnica trilogy these problems were kind of the focus of the entire Golgari storyline, it's the stated motivation of Vraska and therefore very much integral to the story.

    Quote from Onering »

    The Simic, at least the new Simic, are hypocrites. The old Simic were less about nature and more about promoting biological life, and biological life doesn't need to be natural. They embraced the artificiality of their work, even operating as a corporation with branding. It is their rejection of nature which set them apart from the other green guilds. The new Simic, though, play up the nature side of green, and pretend to give nature a fighting chance while using gene manipulation and other artificial means. They are actually hypocritical.


    No, the Simic actually aren't hypocrites if you follow this train of thought. They do preserve actual nature in contrast to the old Simic Combine (see their close partnership in this matter with the Selesnyans) and they have sworn to only use magical means (namely the Hybridization of Krasi) in their scientific advances. They never stated that they would shun anything unnatural from here on out, they just embraced more holistic ideals and actually started to do what they were supposed to do, finding ways so that nature can preserver in Ravnica.


    A krasis isn't actual nature. The Vigean Simic pretty much abandoned the pretense of preserving nature and sold themselves as improving it. The current version of the Simic is more noble and likely better for the plane than the Vigeans, that's not in question, but the Vigeans did a better job about being clear about their philosophy. From the Wiki: Momir Vig, the Simic guildmaster, was dissatisfied with this original purpose (preserving life on Ravnica) and formed a new purpose: to improve upon life-forms of Ravnica. This eliminated any hypocrisy on their part, as although what they were doing was monstrous, they were upfront about it, not pretending to preserve nature but admitting that their goal was to "improve" life artificially. The New Simic rejected this, and returned to the old ways, and that's what makes them hypocritical, because while the old ways may be more holistic and they adhere to the goal of preserving nature, their methods still revolve around artificially changing nature to "improve" it. They don't use magical technology like the Vigeans, using straight up magic instead, but the end result is the same, forcefully mutating life to change it rather than preserve it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing mind you, its just contrary to their stated purpose and thus hypocritical. If their stated purpose was to artificially adapt nature to survival in a plane wide cityscape, then they wouldn't be hypocritical. Its a little like if dog breeders swore not to use genetic engineering to come up with new breeds, relying on the old fashioned way. Yes, its not as technologically advanced and controlled a method, but the act of creating dog breeds is itself unnatural, an artificial act against nature (and let me be clear, this carries no moral weight for me, nature, and acts against it, are neither inherently good or bad).


    Doesn't that wiki quote itself directly state that their goal was to preserve life, not nature in all its forms? I can't find a quote which states that their ONLY goal was preserving nature or that they swore to only use "natural methods". It's certainly one of their goals (which is why the new Simic work together with the other green guilds on the Wilds Initiative to restore and preserve nature at least in some parts of Ravnica) but not the only one and not excluding improving on nature via Krasi for example or helping society with their biological advances (so their goal is actually preserving nature as well as understanding and improving life in general). I think you are overestimating how much green plays a role in the Simic mindset, they are definitely not bound by its "only untouched nature is good"-aspects. I just don't see the strong hypocrisy you see. It's simply an organisation with multiple goals. It's as if you would tell me that I was a hypocrite because I use genetic engineering to study evolution while at the same time being an environmentalist. These two things are just not mutually exclusive.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Flisch »
    Yeah, the Simic's goal is still the same, but they have changed their approach. Infact, their renouncement of cytoplasts and biografting in general was done specifically to use more natural methods. Interestingly concept art of the new Simic shows them in labcoat-like aesthetic, so who knows what they are like now.


    I think they are becoming more and more like actual biologists, which I find great (since I am one). Developing medicine, preserving nature, but also investigating how to improve it via magic (or in our case genetic engineering) and finding out more about life through science. Yes, they still have a somewhat amoral streak, but they are leagues and beyond better than Momir Vigs Simic in that regard.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on (GRN) Guilds of Ravnica General Discussion
    Quote from Saandro »
    Muh social issues on Ravnica /facepalm


    What is facepalm-worthy about this discussion? Even in the first Ravnica trilogy these problems were kind of the focus of the entire Golgari storyline, it's the stated motivation of Vraska and therefore very much integral to the story.

    Quote from Onering »

    The Simic, at least the new Simic, are hypocrites. The old Simic were less about nature and more about promoting biological life, and biological life doesn't need to be natural. They embraced the artificiality of their work, even operating as a corporation with branding. It is their rejection of nature which set them apart from the other green guilds. The new Simic, though, play up the nature side of green, and pretend to give nature a fighting chance while using gene manipulation and other artificial means. They are actually hypocritical.


    No, the Simic actually aren't hypocrites if you follow this train of thought. They do preserve actual nature in contrast to the old Simic Combine (see their close partnership in this matter with the Selesnyans) and they have sworn to only use magical means (namely the Hybridization of Krasi) in their scientific advances. They never stated that they would shun anything unnatural from here on out, they just embraced more holistic ideals and actually started to do what they were supposed to do, finding ways so that nature can preserver in Ravnica.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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