MTG Salvation

Having same issue ...

I would definitely advocate playing Grixis over 4C at this point in the format. You can't afford to be losing games to your mana-base w/such powerful decks. Faeries and UW each have a t2 play that sets up their deck for the rest of the game and having even 2 CIPT lands in your first 4 is something that just won't allow you to compete in the first 4-5 turns the way you need to.


Inquisition and Thoughtseize are also viable w/a 3 colour mana-base.

Quote from piggyboy1

@mj look at the questions i asked
Its about those decks so i have an idea about the meta.
I will be playing what i am comfortable playing and think will win.
I have experience playing the deck so i was asking questions.

When the 2 best players in the country don't like the deck, maybe that ought to tell you something ... so should asking for SB'ing advice for the top 3 decks, 1 week before the PTQ.

Regardless, I'm not trying to put you on tilt, merely offer an informed view of the local metagame.

@Wei (piggyboy1) - play a different deck. It's horribly positioned given the # of aggro-control decks in the meta-game (UW, Fae, Bant are all variants) ... they all have a natural advantage against combo decks and there's really no strategic reason to pilot Pyro in Melbourne's meta-game (which is roughly 60% those 3 decks, though not coming to Meta Games you're prob. not aware of that).

Your biggest problem is lack of pro-active plays; 4 Pyro only. Splinter-Twin is horrendous against the removal and counter-suites available (and being played) against those decks.


Boros, for instance, is a much better choice, or even RDW, if you're intention is to win the event and not merely make up the #s.

FWIW to ppl, this has been testing out 'ok' for me in Caw-heavy environments;




Ideally there'd be +1 Duress in the MD somewhere, but I'm loathe to drop the finisher count as it also supplements the artifact count necessary to support 3 Tezzeret.

Valakut is addressed from the SB, which ought to be obvious.

Contagion Clasp is extremely effective in this metagame, and stops you getting blown out by RUG or Squadron Hawk's and either becomes a 5/5 or creates an (essentially) unbeatable board position w/Tumble Magnet and Tezzeret going long.

Venser is an option but I prefer to maintain Tectonic Edge for a competent post-SB strategy against Valakut.

It's possible that -2 Precursor, +1 Duress and +1 artifact of some kind is correct.

26-3 mana has been working well, much better than 25-4 or fewer lands than 26 in general.


Additionally, adding a set (or 3) Tumble Magnet and Venser to UB is entirely feasible, it's just a matter of positioning and your local meta-game;





The meta-game right now (from UB's perspective) is intriguing, b/c you're relying on Caw-X decks to beat Valakut down (in terms of how 'kut decks there are around, as a % of overall metagame) in order so you can give up some of your natural efficacy against Valakut to beat the Caw-X decks pre-SB.


Anyway, test them out, have fun, fire back feedback if you wish. They've both been working out quite well for me personally, once you get your head around the different play-styles.

Seems unnecessary, though might be great depending on your meta.

It makes all the other SFM's better (they have something to fetch). I think dealing w/the creatures and then setting up Jace or Cruel is a more consistent strategy, though perhaps 1 Bant Charm could be incorporated somewhere ... means less Bluffs and Ruins though, which isn't ideal.

Quote from TripleAgent

I agree on pretty much everything you said except what you said on Black Sun's Zenith. It's the only way to stop something with a sword equipped besides Jace unsummon or the admittedly not great Ratchet Bomb. You can shrink or kill any threat but Colonnade or Gideon, and the later the game goes, it helps win the war of attrition by shuffling back in.

Leaving in Zenith isn't the worst, but it's def. something that benefits from the discard strategy. Spell Pierce is rather devastating against traditional 'go-to' cards like this. So yeh ... fine to keep in, I'd prob. take out a blue card for it (I like the 5 instant speed spot removal spells).

Play either 5 or 6 Duress effects in the MD and max out the rest in the SB. The match up gets a LOT less complicated w/out SoFaF and with more information on your side.

Spreading Seas is underwhelming, Black Sun's Zenith isn't really ideal beyond potentially killing 2 Hawk's with it. I think the match up plays our stronger when you're 1-for-1'ing (obv. you could get paired against a less-than-good pilot and sorcery speed bombs get better in that scenario).

Remember Mystic is VERY under-whelming if they don't have a Sword.

This is my UB list:




My SB'ing is roughly:

-1 Spreading Seas
-2 Black Sun's Zenith
-2 Ratchet Bomb

+3 Duress
+2 Precursor Golem

Put the pressure on hard and fast with disruption and drop something fat before they can stop it.

It's tempting to leave Ratchet Bomb's in, or bring in the extra Beleren. The removal I take out changes a bit, but I generally like leaving in the EOT stuff and make them play in their main-phase again and again.

Obviously Precursor is vulnerable to Divine Offering, but if they're boarding in that card then you're probably in an 'ok' spot and it's only 2 Precursor.

If there was space for Spell Pierce somewhere I'd bring it in to fight the good (disruption) fight that bit more efficiently.

Beleren is great (despite his vulnerability) as he lets you pull ahead in the 1 for 1 fight.

Honestly, if I see a Hawk and a Mystic off my Inquisition then I take the Hawk. Sword is so much easier to fight (Jace, Duress, 3cmc sorcery once you kill the Mystic, needs a guy etc).


The reason I'm not a massive of Ratchet Bomb is how easy it is how the UW pilot to work around. It's also remarkably slow, albeit an effective sweeper if you land it on t2. Horrible top deck as well.

Tumble Magnet + Tezzeret and a slightly different finisher<-->enabler set up is also something I'm working on. Tezzeret trumps the Sword, either by making it a 5/5 and unable to equip//DBlade'ing it, finding infi Tumble Magnets or just flat out racing them.

The issue w/that is your vulnerability to Divine Offering and having to include an (arguably) higher # of sub-par cards in your deck (EChalice).

You get to actually counter BB w/non-CIPT lands ... quite refreshing actually. Spell Pierce, TS//Inquisition as t1 plays (on the draw) go a LONG way to making a BB a non-factor.

Sure, sometimes it hits, but no match up is 100% ... you just get to fight the menace on a different level.

As far as a Vivid Control deck goes, here's where my testing is at:





Just something I'm trying. I haven't found Creeping Tar Pit to make much of a difference in the long game, as putting 4 mana into it just makes their Cryptic Command's better (Faeries).


Regardless of whether or not I stick w/MD Thoughtseize, I'll definitely be piloting a Jace deck w/a lower curve than Wall heavy 4-5C. The idea is nice, but something has to give SOMEWHERE. You just can't draw hands loaded w/4cmc spells and a Cruel and hope to get by in this format ... *maybe* Standard, but even then you're pushing it.



As far as a non-MD TS list goes, this is where I'm currently at:





I feel like all I ever want to do is cast 1 of about 4 spells with the deck, depending on the match up and Preordain just gets you closer to whatever that spell is (VFallout, lots of Esper Charm's, Wurmcoil, Jace). However, I don't want to cut my pure card-advantage for it, so I've left the Mulldrifter in (and honestly, I'd like 4 'drifters for the Fae match up but what cha gonna do?).


Wall of Reverence has been less good for me against Sword-toting Fae. That's not intuitive, as it's white and is bigger than a Sword-wielding token but it (SoFaF) makes their GftT's so much better (for them) b/c of you vulnerability to the Sword. You think you're safe, you go in on Wall's and they shoot//Cryptic your guys and it's game over.

I've found that stopping it via Vendilion is a much stronger tactic and Clique also adds more outs to THEIR Clique's, not to mention if it resolves you don't even need to attack. Just leave it there to legend-rule theirs (if you're worried about a hand w/multiple SSS's and not enough ways to kill them individually).

Vendilion (or TS) tend to make Cruel a MUCH better card, as you reliably set it up (the information factor), but I'm still losing games because I keep drawing too many Cruel's before it's time so for now I am likely to stick w/a singleton and potentially that's too many as well.

Been testing Grixis and it's been a lot faster and generally better performing than 4-5C.

Exotic Orchard - def. a meta-call. Not married to it in anyway. I've noticed the upsurge in Elves! on MODO (has great Fae match-up, strong against UW w/Mystic package) as well.


The curve in the deck needs to drop down, substantially. I'm also pretty close to dropping Cruel. It just doesn't win games conclusively any longer, and 7cmc is a massive obstacle (it's a mulligan until you cast it or unless it's Thoughtseize/Clique'd away).

Wall of Reverence might give way to BSA, not sure on that. Plumeveil is v.powerful right now, and V.Clique in the MD would be nice as well.


Candidates to drop the curve down (and just enable more plays in any given turn) are:

-Preordain
-Spell Pierce
-Lightning Bolt
-Broken Ambitions (yeh, I know)
-Inquisition of Kozilek // Thoughtseize
-Wall of Omens





This is an effort to drop the overall curve of the deck.

Also, it needs more permission in general. V.Clique satisfies that requirement partially, and kills other Cliques pretty damn well to boot.

Go For The Throat #3 might be better as another Vendilion.

Quote from Larzdk

List looks pretty good. What's your feeling for cutting back a bit on removal to include Runed Halo main? I've had so many games totally lock up in my favor because a timely and usually unanswerable g1 Halo on cards like Tar Pit, Valakut or Mistbind ruins their plan?

12 taplands looks to be the number, and I'm running that as well. How's the Exotic Orchard been for you? I've been pretty underwhelmed, tbh.

My meta-game is better suited to running more VFallout and GftT than Runed Halo in the MD, but it's a 100% justifiable call if your meta features a high number of Valakut decks.

Quote from --RUSH--

I love the fact that u guys are still playing this deck, however it just seems underpowered now. Especially with the rise in the u/w aggro decks, 5cc seems very slow with all of those CIPT lands. I still love the deck, but I can officially say that when u cast Cruel Ultimatem and it dosent even win u the game due to top decks or attrition, then this deck needs to be put down.

I agree the power level is reduced in this format, but I have an addiction and UW involves too much red-zoning for me to get my fix there, Faeries has too many cards that are fair w/out their pal, BB

Quote from Larzdk

Yet, it's the most versatile control deck in the room. There isn't a threat that this deck can't sb to handle. Sure, the UW StoneSword deck isn't something you want to play against, but having a fighting chance against anything in the format sells this deck to me. I'm good enough skillwise that I can bend games to my favour, and backed up by a deck that doesn't just roll over and die in certain matchups, it's a winner for me. 5CC may not be the powerhouse it used to be, but it still have all the tools and answers one could ask for. I will even go as far at to say that 5CC is in a good spot in the meta right now. It has answers for all the big matchups lined up in the maindeck, and a lot of people don't expect 5CC to be a contender.

Also, I like how you define "the rise of UW beatdown" as it's me and 3 others discussing it here, with __sip and __ship making a bit of an impact online because the meta wasn't prepared. Sure, it's a decent deck, but it's not unbeatable by any means. LSV likes the deck, but that doesn't make it the new faeries. My SB is a bit better equipped to deal with swords than what Melbourne_Junkie posted, and that's that. UW isn't scary if I doesn't have a sword or a BSA on the board - and both of those have easy go-to answers that won't neuter the SB vs the other matchups much. Claim and Condemn have their moments vs a lot of other decks.

I like BSA against the deck and I've already told my teammates (and anyone who'll listen :P) that TS'ing away Path is more important than anything against UW, cept maybe Jace (who will bounce the defenders, albeit for 4 mana).

I'm working on a mana-base w/less Vivid's and a set of Darkslick Shores, w/the purpose being MD Thoughtseize. I'm tired of being the guy w/8 interactive spells compared to 11+ on the other side (Spell Pierce, discard etc).

Quote from PINOCHO

@Melbourne_junkie : very good list. I have seen one similar in a modo event and I find it quite impressive.

Just 2 questions :
- is the 4th fallout necessary ? You already have a heavy package against faeries and it is not very efficient against the others match-ups
- I am not sure about the bolt, you have lot of good solutions against aggro. I think it can be a slot for valakut or UW's matchs.


I never test againt UW sword but if it is so difficult to fight a sword, why not playing bant charm ? I'm not a big fan of this card because it is a bad shatter/dispel/condemn but it looks a good answer for sword, mistbind and vengevine ?

4 VFallout is correct for my meta ... that's basically how it plays out for me. 3 and a Consume//Burial will be correct for other meta-games.

The Bolt is kind of just a bit of value over the 4th GftT. You need to be 'honest' against Elves! (Pyro in the SB is ridic here, tho 'spout might be better when all said) and it hits a Jace sometimes, goes to the dome etc. Could certainly be a Halo or Preordain.

Quote from Larzdk

GL with those, Rush. I play them on modo to moderate succes. I keep losing to decks with Bolt

This is how my 5CC looks right now. I'm pretty torn between this and U/W Sword.dec

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Creeping Tar Pit 4 Vivid Creek 2 Vivid Marsh 2 Vivid Meadow 1 Vivid Crag 4 Reflecting Pool 2 Island 1 Exotic Orchard 2 Sunken Ruins 3 Mystic Gate 2 Cascade Bluffs	3 Plumeveil 3 Wall of Reverence 2 Wurmcoil Engine 4 Mana Leak 4 Cryptic Command 3 Volcanic Fallout 2 Runed Halo 2 Path to Exile 2 Go for the Throat 4 Esper Charm 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 2 Cruel Ultimatum		SB: 4 Thoughtseize 3 Vendilion Clique 3 Nature's Claim 2 Condemn 3 Baneslayer Angel

Nice, pretty close (obv). W/out Stag, 3 Tar Pit def. seems the way to go.

Quote from Abomb

Hey guys, I was just wondering if cutting bolt is really a good idea, I clearly understand the logic of cutting it for Go for the Throat and/or maindeck Runed Halos, but sometimes sending 3 to the dome or taking out an opposing planeswalker is necessary. Two games vs faeries I won off the back of bolt for the win and possibly would have taken losses instead had they been GftT.

Also another point to bring up, lack of a large sweep spell. I mean I love volcanic fallout, but sometimes you need to at least one sweep spell, just to bail you out. I mean I ran burial and a maindeck angel as insurance. Any thoughts on that?

I haven't found a reason to stick w/a a MD sweeper (traditional) in this meta, other than Steel Affinity (which seems to be quiet despite 4 Tezz being available).

Quote from Larzdk

Would you go as far as saying that the Plumeveil/Wall of R is necessary for 5CC to compete with the faster meta? I'm currently in "4 BSA, 3 Clique, 2 Mulldrifter" land, and I'm pretty happy with how aggressive it allows me to be, but I can see the merits of being able to hold out a lot better with the walls...

I can see the merits of both plans, and it changes quite a lot of matchups going with either plan. I'm just looking for opinions.

Wall of Reverence is excellent against both Fae and SoFaF.

Clique is fantastic agaisnt UW and Scapeshift (and the mirror) but is just dreadful against Faeries. At best it can trade w/their Clique but it certainly isn't a spell you want to play if all it does is pseudo-TS one time but dies to a BB token.

Wall is obviously pretty sub-par against Scapeshift, as you never realistically pull out of range of Valakut's (the card) fire-power in combination w/Scapeshift.



My current list is this:


Realistically, Jace and Cruel are usually the least impressive cards in the deck, but Jace is your man against Scapeshift and solidifying aggro.

I keep trying to shave #'s here and there to get Preordain involved, but the mana doesn't support it (sadly), at least not for optimal value.

WCE is the ideal finisher atm, blanking GftT from Faeries.

BSA is also v.good and the argumentcan be made that w/so many targets, she can reign free by the time you cast her. Putrid Leech's demise (GftT) is a nice boon for the deck as well.

Quote from Abomb

Wouldn't it make more sense to look towards white and/or red for spot removal seeing as tho go for the throat is nullified by SOFaF?

Also just to note, the list that came in 2nd, ran 16 cipt lands, that is a ton of tap lands, and on top of that ran fetches also, which I understand on principle work well with jace, but why would you want to take the damage? 3 Tarpits are very good vs. Faeries, but that is a lot of tap lands and the fetchlands just don't make sense.

I also agree Runed Halo in the main is pretty good. I also really like the condems in the SB, since they help fight Tarpit.

Luckily SOFaF is slowed down by the white and colorless creatures being run in 5CC, but having the sword placed on Tarpit is a real pain, and I agree with Chuu that 5CC needs to adapt to fight the new meta, especially if U/W Mystic picks up.

I like GftT-Path split. Bolt is potentially better than Path, as it kills a Tar-Pit just as easily (response to equip etc). But then VFallout accomplishes that just as easily and handily.

GftT is v.good at dealing w/the creatures that cause 5C trouble; KotR, Mistbind Clique .. although it obviously doesn't deal w/Demigod and Vengevine on a recurring basis.

16 CIPT lands is too many. 12 is the # I use and am more than happy with.

Quote from Koopa

I've played the UW Mystic deck and it is incredible.

Without a Sword in play it's very underwhelming, although the man-lands occasionally finish what V.Clique started.

Quote from Larzdk

I'm thinking of running Maelstrom Pulse in the Sb to better combat sword decks, as it's pretty universal and can come in vs a lot of decks.. Of course there are cheaper options available, but the versatility is pretty undeniable.

Pulse is just too inefficient to make up for its remarkable efficacy.

Quote from Chuu

I really don't want to be relying on sorceries versus sword decks. Especially since faeries is starting to up their number they have access to.

I really wish there was something cheap out there that could hit swords and creatures. The closest thing I can think of is something like Pithing Needle. Sword decks can't deal with needle very well, and it can shut down mutavault vs. sword decks (a much bigger deal that it appears, an uncounterable sword carrier is a huge reason the matchup is so bad!) and creeping tar pit versus faeries. Even shutting down fauna shaman is pretty big right now. At worst, hits hellspark elemental and figure of destiny.

Actually, that doesn't sound so bad . . .

I don't even know if pithing needle is legal right now. Was it in M10?

I don't think hitting both SoFaF and a creature is necessary, quite frankly. Cryptic Command accomplishes that quite handily. I like spot removal on the Sword ... Nature's Claim is v.good (efficient, hard to Spell Pierce).

The trouble UW poses is threat density.Plumeveil and Wall of Reverence are very VERY good against them though. I've been restricting myself to TS'ing only Jace and Path and it's been working quite well. Occasionally I'll hit a V.Clique but I'd rather they cast it and blank their other copies.

Quote from Larzdk

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
1 Arid Mesa 4 Celestial Colonnade 2 Glacial Fortress 4 Island 1 Misty Rainforest 4 Mutavault 2 Mystic Gate 3 Plains 4 Seachrome Coast	4 Kitchen Finks 1 Mulldrifter 4 Stoneforge Mystic 3 Vendilion Clique 4 Cryptic Command 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4 Mana Leak 3 Path to Exile 4 Preordain 3 Spell Pierce 1 Sword of Body and Mind 1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Day of Judgment
2 Journey to Nowhere
1 Spell Pierce
4 Squadron Hawk
2 War Priest of Thune
15 sideboard cards

The current version of the deck for reference. I'm still planing on running this list at the PTQs, maybe with Runed Halo in the SB to better combat Valakut/Faeries - but it has to stay under the radar, or I might as well run 5CC that I'm more comfortable with.

It just dominated the MODO PTQ ... clearly not under the radar.