Collective Brutality is a better card than Creeping Chill. Not as free when everything goes right, but not as dead when they don't. And Dredge actually plays Brutality in the SB.
This was part of your incredulous response to my saying creeping chill will be a 4-of in dredge back in the last spoiler thread. You said chill wouldn't see play and were very condescending about it. You were very wrong.
Of the cards spoiled so far, imo the most potential is Growth Spiral in amulet titan. Explore is already a thing, and a 4-of in that deck, but spiral being instant speed and being one of a few ways you can play a bounce land at instant speed is NUTS. GU is a bit more restrictive than 1G, but I think it could be worth retooling the mana base a bit to a more simic deck due to the power of spiral. I don't know if the deck would run the full playset of both, but having played it pretty extensively I can think of any number of times Explore's cantrip helped me go off, and having more of that effect aint bad.
I'm verrry happy to skim a narco and lose some flex slots for a full playset. Yes it increases the chances of a dead draw in hand, but thats one of the reasons we play conflag. Chill is much less dead in hand than narco, as worst case you can hardcast it turn 4 without too much trouble thanks to life from the loam. The workaround to make narco not dead involves hardcasting golgari thug and is generally much slower.
To get the same value on a narco dredge that you get from a chill dredge, you need that narco to survive and swing 3 times, then block a mantis rider. The only reason we aren't ditching narco entirely for chill (imo) is that we need the amalgam triggers.
This card significantly speeds up the deck and improves the nutdraw, while also helping with some of our toughest matchups. Ultra-fast linear aggro that can goldfish better than we can. Dredging one of these will often mean the difference of dying on turn 3 to an affinity/humans/rdw nut draw and getting to turn 4, allowing us one last chance to attack. They also make for 12 points of uncounterable damage vs control.
One other major aspect of the card is it gives us another out to Ensnaring Bridge. Conflagrate alone was often too slow, and gets turned off by grafdigger's cage. This doesn't get turned off by cage, and when you run a playset of these plus 2-3 conflags, then you can easily win the game in a few turns without even attacking once. This reach that it provides is about equivalent to the reach that bolt gives red decks, meaning that we can win even in a stalled board.
It also opens up some SB slots. Gnaw to the Bone was usually a 1-2 of in the most competitive lists, especially in burn and aggro heavy metas. This accomplishes what gnaw did and more. Between this and Assassin's Trophy in the SB, Dredge gained two 4-ofs in GRN. I think Trophy, despite costing 1 more than nature's claim should get the nod because it cleanly answers ALL the hate we might encounter, from RIP to Leyline to creature based hate that we typically struggle to deal with like Scavenging Ooze. If they are stupid enough to scooze and not immediately exile stuff we could usually deal with it via conflag, but now thats not necessary.
I'm no mathlete with the exact percentages of why you need to run X amount of dredge/payoff/enabler, but I remember the general rule of thumb was 12dredge/12payoff/12enabler/4 flex for a consistent rate of dredging. This list is 13/15/13 which should mean fairly consistent dredges that chain into one another, frequent payoffs, and less frequent bricking. I run 20 lands instead of 19 partially because I expect more assassin's trophy in the meta and want to have the basics to fetch, and because I want to make sure I always get to 2 mana so I can loam into enough mana to hardcast chills that i might draw.
So creeping chill seems incredible. It's a free uncounterable 3 damage per against control, and a whopping 6 point lifeswing in races. That lifegain is incredible vs burn and affinity and pretty much every deck that tries to kill us before we kill them, rather than stop us from killing them and then kill us.
I think there is room in the deck for at least 3, if not a full playset. The only thing narcos have on this is that they trigger amalgams, otherwise this is miles better. For comparison, in an aggro matchup you need narco to swing in and survive 3 times, then block a 3/x to get the same value.
Between this and assassin's trophy as our new catchall sideboard card, im pretty psyched for GRN
I think the jump charm design is A+ and something wizards should definitely print. Well done
Thank you! In a pre-trophy world i'd even say its probably too good, but then they printed a 2 cmc instant speed vindicate in the same set that they printed a 3 mana sorcery speed lighting bolt Precision Bolt so who knows where R&D are at this point.
I actually think Electrostatic Field probably deserves an inclusion. It's really strong vs lots of early aggro with it's 0/4 body, and the incremental damage really adds up over time, especially in the builds that plan to win with either teferi lock or burn damage. Kind of reminds me of wall of omens except instead of replacing itself it's a clock of sorts and much better in multiples.
"fixed counterspell"
Instant UU
Counter target spell. That spell's controller may search their library for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
Jump Charm
Instant UR
Pick one:
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1.
Deal 1 damage to any one target creature and 1 Damage to it's controller.
Draw 2 cards, then discard 2 cards.
I feel like people are evaluating ral with teferi colored lenses. Teferi isn't really a 5cmc planeswalker, he's a 3 cmc walker that comes out turn 5. You don't have to go "shields down" to resolve him and start clocking/building your board.
On the other hand, it feels bad to tap out for Ral and get a Sleight of Hand for 5 mana, or maybe a roast. I think he's a very strong card vs the mirror and in other situations, but I definitely don't think he gets mainboard play.
I also think that Lava Coil is a weird choice mainboard. Given the amount of value creatures in standard right now I'd rather deal with them before they resolve, not after. Essence Scatter is available to us and blue mana is, as you say earlier, not that difficult to make. I think coil makes more sense in the SB too.
You're not going to burn your Angel's Grace unless you can combo off or are dead on board that turn. You're certainly not going to burn it to take an undercosted extra turn, draw Ad Nauseam, then stare at the Angel's Grace sitting in the graveyard wishing you hadn't spent it.
The instant speed is not as good as it looks. If you cast it on your opponent's turn, you get 1 turn before losing, not 2.
I mean if you are playing a deck that abuses this then the instant speed is good, because you dont lose thanks to angels grace/gideon/platinum angel/lich's mastery and so you still get 2 turns.
Am I crazy or could this end up in ad nauseum? Instant speed free turns and they already avoid death with angels grace. Maybe a build with this would use Gideon of the Trials emblem instead of phyrexian unlife or something?
Even if it doesn't go well with ad nauseum combo, there are enough "you can't lose" effects in modern to make me think an instant speed 3 mana Time Walk might find a home. Best comparison is Savor the Moment, which has an arguably worse drawback for a sorcery speed version of the effect (without the indestructible clause either).
Not necessarily advocating running chill over Narco, but in order to get the same value out of narco, you need to mill it and it needs to survive for that turn + 3 more. Most games narco won't be good for 3 damage. The real reason dredge runs narco is to reanimate amalgams, but I'm not convinced running a 3/3 split of narcos and creeping chill, cutting a single conflag and 1 darkblast from the main to make it fit isn't the better way to play.
Dredge is a game 1 deck, darkblast is a game 2 and 3 spell that is occasionally relevant game 1. Conflag is relevant every game, but cutting 3 to 2 doesn't make that much of a difference, and chill in the main will significantly improve dredge's speed/survivability.
And narco also reanimates your amalgams, true. But I think you are dismissing Creeping Chill too quickly. Assuming a playset it's 12 points of burn that dredge didn't have access to before, and the free lifegain might get you another turn vs aggro decks.
Drawing a narco and the best thing it can do is either be reanimated via the thug loop (which is a multi-step loop requiring a cast and death trigger all to get a 1/1 back). Drawing a chill and it can help close games if things are stalled out and you hardcast it.
I think you're really underestimating the card. 12 points of free burn is a strong addition to a deck that can already get turn 3 or 4 kills. It speeds the deck up while giving you more time vs burn, humans, affinity, etc.
Question is what to cut for it. Personally I think a free 6 point life swing might be worth a narco or two. I know that this just made my burn matchup 10000% better.
And on the power level of this set, I couldn't disagree more with the people who say its weak. This is now the 4th constructed playable that is likely to see modern play (after Assassin's Trophy, Mission Briefing, and Knight of Autumn). Each one of these playable cards is not only likely to see modern play, but might end up seeing legacy play as well (maybe not the knight, but anywhere snapcaster is played is a potential home for briefing and trophy will see play everywhere).
There are also a ***** ton of nearly-there cards like the 5 mana 6/6 flying trampler with Pay 2: Surveil 2 that I'm sure someone will find a way to break, or the 4 mana cantrip flier with 4 toughness and power = how many instants and sorceries you have in gy and exile. That is insane power creep. Ludicrously so. Maybe not modern playable but the fact that it replaces itself makes me think it could make some waves.
Planeswalkers, yeah they aren't the best, but I think people are poorly evaluating the 4cmc Vraska. She is a 4 cmc planeswalker with + CA, -Removal, and a Game Winning Ult. Traditionally cards like that have been strong. Vraska will definitely see modern play, the question is where.
Is bitterblossom a possibility alongside the new vraska? seems like they go hand in hand, plus it powers up goyf with enchantment and tribal. (and delirium if you go that route, or lets you cast death's shadow quicker if you go that way)
its also important to note that with more 'destroy' anything effects around in the main deck it effectively frees up sideboard space.
This point cannot be overstated. BGx lists typically run 3-4 sideboard slots dedicated solely to *****ty cards like fulminator mage. This safely lets them ditch him entirely, as well as any other anti-tron tech they had. Frees up considerable space to improve the other matchups that need improvement.
This was part of your incredulous response to my saying creeping chill will be a 4-of in dredge back in the last spoiler thread. You said chill wouldn't see play and were very condescending about it. You were very wrong.
Of the cards spoiled so far, imo the most potential is Growth Spiral in amulet titan. Explore is already a thing, and a 4-of in that deck, but spiral being instant speed and being one of a few ways you can play a bounce land at instant speed is NUTS. GU is a bit more restrictive than 1G, but I think it could be worth retooling the mana base a bit to a more simic deck due to the power of spiral. I don't know if the deck would run the full playset of both, but having played it pretty extensively I can think of any number of times Explore's cantrip helped me go off, and having more of that effect aint bad.
To get the same value on a narco dredge that you get from a chill dredge, you need that narco to survive and swing 3 times, then block a mantis rider. The only reason we aren't ditching narco entirely for chill (imo) is that we need the amalgam triggers.
This card significantly speeds up the deck and improves the nutdraw, while also helping with some of our toughest matchups. Ultra-fast linear aggro that can goldfish better than we can. Dredging one of these will often mean the difference of dying on turn 3 to an affinity/humans/rdw nut draw and getting to turn 4, allowing us one last chance to attack. They also make for 12 points of uncounterable damage vs control.
One other major aspect of the card is it gives us another out to Ensnaring Bridge. Conflagrate alone was often too slow, and gets turned off by grafdigger's cage. This doesn't get turned off by cage, and when you run a playset of these plus 2-3 conflags, then you can easily win the game in a few turns without even attacking once. This reach that it provides is about equivalent to the reach that bolt gives red decks, meaning that we can win even in a stalled board.
It also opens up some SB slots. Gnaw to the Bone was usually a 1-2 of in the most competitive lists, especially in burn and aggro heavy metas. This accomplishes what gnaw did and more. Between this and Assassin's Trophy in the SB, Dredge gained two 4-ofs in GRN. I think Trophy, despite costing 1 more than nature's claim should get the nod because it cleanly answers ALL the hate we might encounter, from RIP to Leyline to creature based hate that we typically struggle to deal with like Scavenging Ooze. If they are stupid enough to scooze and not immediately exile stuff we could usually deal with it via conflag, but now thats not necessary.
right now my list is:
4 Creeping Chill
3 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
Enabler (13)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Cathartic Reunion
2 Conflagrate
2 Shriekhorn
2 Insolent Neonate
Dredgers (12 + dakmor in landbase)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Darkblast
2 Lightning Axe
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
I'm no mathlete with the exact percentages of why you need to run X amount of dredge/payoff/enabler, but I remember the general rule of thumb was 12dredge/12payoff/12enabler/4 flex for a consistent rate of dredging. This list is 13/15/13 which should mean fairly consistent dredges that chain into one another, frequent payoffs, and less frequent bricking. I run 20 lands instead of 19 partially because I expect more assassin's trophy in the meta and want to have the basics to fetch, and because I want to make sure I always get to 2 mana so I can loam into enough mana to hardcast chills that i might draw.
I think there is room in the deck for at least 3, if not a full playset. The only thing narcos have on this is that they trigger amalgams, otherwise this is miles better. For comparison, in an aggro matchup you need narco to swing in and survive 3 times, then block a 3/x to get the same value.
Between this and assassin's trophy as our new catchall sideboard card, im pretty psyched for GRN
Thank you! In a pre-trophy world i'd even say its probably too good, but then they printed a 2 cmc instant speed vindicate in the same set that they printed a 3 mana sorcery speed lighting bolt Precision Bolt so who knows where R&D are at this point.
Instant UU
Counter target spell. That spell's controller may search their library for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
Jump Charm
Instant UR
Pick one:
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1.
Deal 1 damage to any one target creature and 1 Damage to it's controller.
Draw 2 cards, then discard 2 cards.
Jump-Start
On the other hand, it feels bad to tap out for Ral and get a Sleight of Hand for 5 mana, or maybe a roast. I think he's a very strong card vs the mirror and in other situations, but I definitely don't think he gets mainboard play.
I also think that Lava Coil is a weird choice mainboard. Given the amount of value creatures in standard right now I'd rather deal with them before they resolve, not after. Essence Scatter is available to us and blue mana is, as you say earlier, not that difficult to make. I think coil makes more sense in the SB too.
Here's the list i'm running:
4 Ionize
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
3 Sinister Sabotage
2 Essence Scatter
2 Seal Away
2 Chemister's Insight
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Cleansing Nova
2 Mission Briefing
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Deafening Clarion
1 Expansion // Explosion
4 Steam Vents
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
My build wins with Teferi and burn to the face
I mean if you are playing a deck that abuses this then the instant speed is good, because you dont lose thanks to angels grace/gideon/platinum angel/lich's mastery and so you still get 2 turns.
Am I crazy or could this end up in ad nauseum? Instant speed free turns and they already avoid death with angels grace. Maybe a build with this would use Gideon of the Trials emblem instead of phyrexian unlife or something?
Even if it doesn't go well with ad nauseum combo, there are enough "you can't lose" effects in modern to make me think an instant speed 3 mana Time Walk might find a home. Best comparison is Savor the Moment, which has an arguably worse drawback for a sorcery speed version of the effect (without the indestructible clause either).
Dredge is a game 1 deck, darkblast is a game 2 and 3 spell that is occasionally relevant game 1. Conflag is relevant every game, but cutting 3 to 2 doesn't make that much of a difference, and chill in the main will significantly improve dredge's speed/survivability.
Drawing a narco and the best thing it can do is either be reanimated via the thug loop (which is a multi-step loop requiring a cast and death trigger all to get a 1/1 back). Drawing a chill and it can help close games if things are stalled out and you hardcast it.
I think you're really underestimating the card. 12 points of free burn is a strong addition to a deck that can already get turn 3 or 4 kills. It speeds the deck up while giving you more time vs burn, humans, affinity, etc.
Question is what to cut for it. Personally I think a free 6 point life swing might be worth a narco or two. I know that this just made my burn matchup 10000% better.
And on the power level of this set, I couldn't disagree more with the people who say its weak. This is now the 4th constructed playable that is likely to see modern play (after Assassin's Trophy, Mission Briefing, and Knight of Autumn). Each one of these playable cards is not only likely to see modern play, but might end up seeing legacy play as well (maybe not the knight, but anywhere snapcaster is played is a potential home for briefing and trophy will see play everywhere).
There are also a ***** ton of nearly-there cards like the 5 mana 6/6 flying trampler with Pay 2: Surveil 2 that I'm sure someone will find a way to break, or the 4 mana cantrip flier with 4 toughness and power = how many instants and sorceries you have in gy and exile. That is insane power creep. Ludicrously so. Maybe not modern playable but the fact that it replaces itself makes me think it could make some waves.
Planeswalkers, yeah they aren't the best, but I think people are poorly evaluating the 4cmc Vraska. She is a 4 cmc planeswalker with + CA, -Removal, and a Game Winning Ult. Traditionally cards like that have been strong. Vraska will definitely see modern play, the question is where.
This point cannot be overstated. BGx lists typically run 3-4 sideboard slots dedicated solely to *****ty cards like fulminator mage. This safely lets them ditch him entirely, as well as any other anti-tron tech they had. Frees up considerable space to improve the other matchups that need improvement.