The Drowners were cut from the traditional list for 3 Oblivion Sower and 1 World Breaker basically. The mana base also was able to fit in a 2nd Ghost Quarter and obviously a more consistent mana base. Drowner has helped close out a lot of games or just make the opponent concede, so it is tough to cut him out. He can easily shut down combat, and combined with Displacer leads to an insurmountable board state. It may be worth testing, but for basically 3 Oblivion Sower and no good ways to use all that mana, I don't think it's as good as the Bant lists today.
Batterskull I've considered - the only issue is it cannot be accelerated out (non-Eldrazi) and is in the 5 drop slot with Reality Smasher. Maybe as a 1-of while trimming a single Drowner. Similarly, Wurmcoil fits in this situation as well - except with no way to accelerate it out it is a 6 drop. I think these cards lacking the acceleration will be too slow for the deck to come in when they should matter. They seem better as sideboard cards in this deck since we really are an aggressive midrange deck that wants to close out the game quick (and even then, bringing in a 5 drop or 6 drop for lifelink is not what we want against fast aggro decks). We don't have that many ways to delay the game against fast decks, unlike typical decks that run Batterskull and Wurmcoil in the 75 (and again, we aren't playing Tron here so we don't have the reliable acceleration to play them ahead of curve). Batterskull or Wurmcoil are in some control deck sideboards in grindier matchups which is where they excel. Our deck already is favored vs almost all control decks though, so I don't see it as a good card in a sideboard slot.
Ratchet Bomb other than budget reasons should always be Engineered Explosives. Being able to play EE for 1 or 2 and immediately detonate that turn is extremely powerful. For instance, vs Merfolk, which is a bad matchup, we really want to hit 2 CMC creatures. Ratchet Bomb is too slow for this and requires us to play it early letting our opponent know not to play into the inevitable sweeper on 2. Otherwise say we're at T4 vs Merfolk, we can easily hit a couple lords and a random 2-drop Merfolk with EE on 2. In the main either card is too narrow - totally worthless vs a wide variety of decks (EE on 2 to kill a Snapcaster?).
Revoker is okay, but Spellskite has wider and often more powerful applications. Revoker blindly on T2 in the main is awkward. A Spellskite on 2 in the blind is fine as your opponent has to either waste a removal spell there or allow our Eldrazi to have "Pay U/2 life, become Hexproof" basically. T2 Spellskite into T3 TKS is terrific for instance, as it often avoids the opponent killing TKS in response with its only removal spell at the time.
Anyways, in general, I do not believe the best 60 has been found for this deck. There may also be better color combinations for a higher overall win percentage. Keep testing with what you feel would work - put some thought and planning into it, and then grind out many games against many decks with it to see if the changes were better or not.
Round 1 vs R/W Eldrazi
Game 1: I curve out faster and clear his board with Chandra then beat down with Chandra tokens and a few creatures.
SIDEBOARD
+3 Obligator, +3 Roast
-2 Hangarback, -1 Warping Wail, -2 Spatial Contortion, -1 Pia and Kiran
Game 2: I again curve out quicker than him though its a closer game. Not much to say really. We play stuff, my Ruins pumped by Aggregate/Smasher bigger than his (he had to cut utility lands for the white splash). I was able to sac my foundry for chump blockers while he couldn't afford to run so many Foundrys either.
In both games he either sequenced his land drops wrong or the tapped lands from Needle Spires were doing a number on him slowing everything of his down by an extra turn. Makes me still wonder how good the splash of White would be - it is not a free splash by any means.
Round 2 vs Mono-G Ramp
Game 1: I get a turn 2 Hedron Crawler into T3 TKS and strip his only useful card. I Smasher next turn as well and he dies shortly after.
Game 2: I have a much slower start and he gets a Gaea's Revenge out which I just have no way of dealing with. He drops an Endless one for 7 which I was able to steal the following the turn with Obligator (can't steal Gaea), but he had an open Elvish Visionary to block. He also had a Rogue's Passage out so had lethal after a couple turns.
Game 3: I have a much quicker start with T2 Crawler into T3 TKS and T4 Smasher and T5 Chandra. Game ends right there.
Round 3 vs B/R Eldrazi Aggro
Game 1: He curves out way too quick and beats down hard. I don't manage to recover.
Game 2 and 3: I play extremely cautiously and defensively until he's nearly out of cards then I gradually start swinging in. Slowly and steadily chipping away at him and leaving back 1-2 blockers every time. K-return gets him for a 3 for 1 in Game 3 as well.
Still really liking Mono-R Eldrazi. I have all the cards for the white splash now, but still going to stick with the consistency here for now.
The past couple weeks I've been playing around with our flex slots as well as opening up the sideboard by taking out all the leylines. Jund just isn't as popular lately.
Noteworthy changes from the standards: -1 Land (Flooded Strand)
My variation caps out at 2 CMC. No Unflinching Courages to be found here. I've done a lot of fishbowling and I mulligan about the same as usual (hard to really tell with a deck like this how much of a difference it will make). Opened up another slot for another aura.
-1 Path (only 2 in the main)
I've been seeing a few Bogles decks lately 5-0'n the leagues with ZERO Paths in the main, so trying to slim it a little with a 3rd Path in the sideboard.
I very rarely see decks run this card anymore. I theoretically like it as the 5th way to give trample, 7th way to push through damage against creature decks (2 Spirit Mantles as well), and it also deals with edicts and gives us chump blockers behind in races. Still testing. Given I also have cut out ALL leylines (will discuss in a moment), this also helps with that regard.
Spirit Link / Spirit Mantle splits
2 Link / 2 Mantle in the main, with a 3rd Link in the side. I'm not sure about this one. My local meta tends to be fairly aggressive with decks like Zoo and Burn popping up every time I play. With the Leylines taken out of the sideboard, having more Spirit Links is very useful there. Many times it is simply best to Spirit Link their Eidolon.
Sideboard: NO LEYLINES!! -4 Leylines, +1 Stony (3), +1 RIP (3), +1 Seal (3), +1 Flex (Spirit Link at the moment)
I run into discard decks so infrequently lately that Leylines haven't been as useful as before. Additionally, I never liked that this deck really needs to run all 4 in the SB, since if it isn't in the opening hand, we very rarely get to 4 lands to hardcast it (and even more rarely by Turn 4 or 5) - and it rarely matters by that time anyways (also I trimmed a land, so even rarer). I run more fetches than the typical Bogles deck as well (budget issues for Horizon Canopies), and it happens to help out here as another way to fetch Dryad Arbor vs edict effects. Plus, as mentioned before Fists of Ironwood has entered the 75 as well which gives more edict protection.
With the rise of uninteractive decks requiring artifact activations or graveyard shenanigans, as well as the rise of "prison" cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Worship, and Chalice, the Leyline cuts open up 4 slots to give us better chances of drawing the answers we need.
So call me crazy, but I'm liking the no leylines version of it better for now. Post eldrazi ban when the meta settles again, Leylines very well may go back in. We'll see how the meta adjusts.
Anyone watching the gp ? My friend is currently undefeated and he's the only loss I had locally with my ramp deck. His bant company list splashed for mantis rider.
I saw a ramp deck on the stream with no oath of Nissa !!!! I should've gone with to the gp but dang it being a responsible adult tends to come first
Also you cannot drop to 2 shrines, shrines allows you cast Ulamog and. Breakers early.
With the uptick of that hardened scales deck making waves that 4th Ugin is looking mighty good. Doesn't seem like the ramp decks have been sown much, hopefully we will get to see some good tech tomorrow.
What do you mean by shrine helping you cast Breakers early? Breaker costs 7. Shrine doesn't do anything until you have 7 lands, so... ? You can ramp into him with dorks or Hedron Archive or Conduit cheapening the cost, but Shrine doesn't do anything for Breaker.
@Goatslayer22 "One more thing, I was thinking 2 Conduit of Ruin in my SB for the mirror match so I can tutor Ulamog faster, thoughts on that? "
I like 1-3 of Conduit in the SB. It not only is great in the mirror, it also is just great vs control due to On Cast trigger ensuring we get another threat next turn while leaving a 5/5 body and "ramp" on the board if resolved. Also, with a Conduit I highly recommend a Void Winnower in the sideboard. That is the ultimate card in the mirror.
8th place by David Koon playing a Ruin in The Wake version (note - I believe he ran 7 forests, not 1, the land count is off on the list here): http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/377289#paper
So quiet ye naysayers saying the deck "isn't good enough past FNM"
If we go back to splashing White, I think we have to reconfigure our mana bases and ramp spells. For instance, I think we would need to go back to fetches and drop the Ruin in the Wakes package to make sure we can support our essentially 4 color deck (we need <> producing as well for Kozi / Thought-Knot Seer / Matter Reshaper). If we go back to white, we also have access to Hallowed Moonlight again which is an all star vs Rally and Co-Co decks.
I don't think the wall would be what we want for a few reasons. 1) White is our splash - we would want white by turn 3 against the aggro decks and with only 1 plains in the deck, that will be nowhere near consistent. 2) The Wall isn't much better than a Jaddi Offshoot, it doesn't deter them from attacking at all. 3) The additional creature is a land-creature which leaves us very prone to going down a land, and if we are going 4-colors we can easily get mana screwed with this.
Actually, just thought of something. Might be too cute, but might actually be good. Here's how Wall of Resurgence can work out favorably in the deck: make the deck GW instead of GR. Use Planar Outburst for the sweeper - which will not kill your animated lands from the Wall. Additionally, Sylvan Advocate will buff your animated lands, making the Wall of Resurgence animated land a 5/5 instead of a 3/3. Still has the same risks of going down a land, but at least far less likely since it avoids more removal spells with 5 toughness. Could also present a faster clock against slower decks. Might be worth testing a GW shell to see how it fares - I'm sure what Red can provide White can as well.
I used to not like Kozilek, but my build back then just was not tuned well for him - the ramp was nowhere near as explosive as my later iterations of the build. I really like him a lot now. I just have to always remember his Discard ability and not waste unnecessary 2-4 CMC spells so we can counter most of the "answers" to our big threats. It's also very useful against control decks packing Infinite Obliterations - casting a Kozilek when you don't have Ulamogs or World Breakers any more is a massive swing in your favor. With that said, he definitely is best against grindier decks, so I can see him being moved to the SB at the least.
Sorry if I'm asking something that has been previously covered. I rarely go to the Standard forums.
There's a couple options. One thing is focus on ramping to World Breaker and Oblivion Sower - if you take 1-2 White Sources you lock them out of being able to play Rally. For sideboard options, Hallowed Moonlight is the best one, though requires splashing white. It isn't hard to fit a single Plains in the deck that can be tutored by the various spells when you need it.
1
http://www.magicfriends.net/index.php?ind=news&op=news_show_single&ide=3309
The Drowners were cut from the traditional list for 3 Oblivion Sower and 1 World Breaker basically. The mana base also was able to fit in a 2nd Ghost Quarter and obviously a more consistent mana base. Drowner has helped close out a lot of games or just make the opponent concede, so it is tough to cut him out. He can easily shut down combat, and combined with Displacer leads to an insurmountable board state. It may be worth testing, but for basically 3 Oblivion Sower and no good ways to use all that mana, I don't think it's as good as the Bant lists today.
Batterskull I've considered - the only issue is it cannot be accelerated out (non-Eldrazi) and is in the 5 drop slot with Reality Smasher. Maybe as a 1-of while trimming a single Drowner. Similarly, Wurmcoil fits in this situation as well - except with no way to accelerate it out it is a 6 drop. I think these cards lacking the acceleration will be too slow for the deck to come in when they should matter. They seem better as sideboard cards in this deck since we really are an aggressive midrange deck that wants to close out the game quick (and even then, bringing in a 5 drop or 6 drop for lifelink is not what we want against fast aggro decks). We don't have that many ways to delay the game against fast decks, unlike typical decks that run Batterskull and Wurmcoil in the 75 (and again, we aren't playing Tron here so we don't have the reliable acceleration to play them ahead of curve). Batterskull or Wurmcoil are in some control deck sideboards in grindier matchups which is where they excel. Our deck already is favored vs almost all control decks though, so I don't see it as a good card in a sideboard slot.
Ratchet Bomb other than budget reasons should always be Engineered Explosives. Being able to play EE for 1 or 2 and immediately detonate that turn is extremely powerful. For instance, vs Merfolk, which is a bad matchup, we really want to hit 2 CMC creatures. Ratchet Bomb is too slow for this and requires us to play it early letting our opponent know not to play into the inevitable sweeper on 2. Otherwise say we're at T4 vs Merfolk, we can easily hit a couple lords and a random 2-drop Merfolk with EE on 2. In the main either card is too narrow - totally worthless vs a wide variety of decks (EE on 2 to kill a Snapcaster?).
Revoker is okay, but Spellskite has wider and often more powerful applications. Revoker blindly on T2 in the main is awkward. A Spellskite on 2 in the blind is fine as your opponent has to either waste a removal spell there or allow our Eldrazi to have "Pay U/2 life, become Hexproof" basically. T2 Spellskite into T3 TKS is terrific for instance, as it often avoids the opponent killing TKS in response with its only removal spell at the time.
Anyways, in general, I do not believe the best 60 has been found for this deck. There may also be better color combinations for a higher overall win percentage. Keep testing with what you feel would work - put some thought and planning into it, and then grind out many games against many decks with it to see if the changes were better or not.
1
4 Hedron Crawler
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Vile Aggregate
4 Thopter Engineer
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
PLANESWALKERS
4 Chandra, Flamecaller
LANDS
10 Mountain
3 Shivan Reef
3 Battlefield Forge
2 Westvale Abbey
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Foundry of the Consuls
2 Ruins of Oran-Rief
2 Outnumber
3 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
3 Eldrazi Obligator
3 Roast
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Goldnight Castigator
2 Rending Volley
1 Tears of Valakut
Round 1 vs R/W Eldrazi
Game 1: I curve out faster and clear his board with Chandra then beat down with Chandra tokens and a few creatures.
SIDEBOARD
+3 Obligator, +3 Roast
-2 Hangarback, -1 Warping Wail, -2 Spatial Contortion, -1 Pia and Kiran
Game 2: I again curve out quicker than him though its a closer game. Not much to say really. We play stuff, my Ruins pumped by Aggregate/Smasher bigger than his (he had to cut utility lands for the white splash). I was able to sac my foundry for chump blockers while he couldn't afford to run so many Foundrys either.
In both games he either sequenced his land drops wrong or the tapped lands from Needle Spires were doing a number on him slowing everything of his down by an extra turn. Makes me still wonder how good the splash of White would be - it is not a free splash by any means.
Round 2 vs Mono-G Ramp
Game 1: I get a turn 2 Hedron Crawler into T3 TKS and strip his only useful card. I Smasher next turn as well and he dies shortly after.
SIDEBOARD
-4 Hangarback, -2 Contortion
+3 Obligator, +3 Goldnight Castigator
Game 2: I have a much slower start and he gets a Gaea's Revenge out which I just have no way of dealing with. He drops an Endless one for 7 which I was able to steal the following the turn with Obligator (can't steal Gaea), but he had an open Elvish Visionary to block. He also had a Rogue's Passage out so had lethal after a couple turns.
Game 3: I have a much quicker start with T2 Crawler into T3 TKS and T4 Smasher and T5 Chandra. Game ends right there.
Round 3 vs B/R Eldrazi Aggro
Game 1: He curves out way too quick and beats down hard. I don't manage to recover.
SIDEBOARD
+3 Kozilek's Return
-2 Reality Smasher, -1 Thought-Knot Seer
Game 2 and 3: I play extremely cautiously and defensively until he's nearly out of cards then I gradually start swinging in. Slowly and steadily chipping away at him and leaving back 1-2 blockers every time. K-return gets him for a 3 for 1 in Game 3 as well.
Still really liking Mono-R Eldrazi. I have all the cards for the white splash now, but still going to stick with the consistency here for now.
1
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Slippery Bogle
3 Kor Spiritdancer
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
UTILITY (2)
2 Path to Exile
AURAS (26)
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Hyena Umbra
4 Rancor
4 Spider Umbra
2 Spirit Link
2 Spirit Mantle
1 Keen Sense
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Seal of Primordium
1 Path to Exile
2 Spellskite
1 Spirit Link
Noteworthy changes from the standards:
-1 Land (Flooded Strand)
My variation caps out at 2 CMC. No Unflinching Courages to be found here. I've done a lot of fishbowling and I mulligan about the same as usual (hard to really tell with a deck like this how much of a difference it will make). Opened up another slot for another aura.
-1 Path (only 2 in the main)
I've been seeing a few Bogles decks lately 5-0'n the leagues with ZERO Paths in the main, so trying to slim it a little with a 3rd Path in the sideboard.
Maindecked Fists of Ironwood
I very rarely see decks run this card anymore. I theoretically like it as the 5th way to give trample, 7th way to push through damage against creature decks (2 Spirit Mantles as well), and it also deals with edicts and gives us chump blockers behind in races. Still testing. Given I also have cut out ALL leylines (will discuss in a moment), this also helps with that regard.
Spirit Link / Spirit Mantle splits
2 Link / 2 Mantle in the main, with a 3rd Link in the side. I'm not sure about this one. My local meta tends to be fairly aggressive with decks like Zoo and Burn popping up every time I play. With the Leylines taken out of the sideboard, having more Spirit Links is very useful there. Many times it is simply best to Spirit Link their Eidolon.
Sideboard: NO LEYLINES!! -4 Leylines, +1 Stony (3), +1 RIP (3), +1 Seal (3), +1 Flex (Spirit Link at the moment)
I run into discard decks so infrequently lately that Leylines haven't been as useful as before. Additionally, I never liked that this deck really needs to run all 4 in the SB, since if it isn't in the opening hand, we very rarely get to 4 lands to hardcast it (and even more rarely by Turn 4 or 5) - and it rarely matters by that time anyways (also I trimmed a land, so even rarer). I run more fetches than the typical Bogles deck as well (budget issues for Horizon Canopies), and it happens to help out here as another way to fetch Dryad Arbor vs edict effects. Plus, as mentioned before Fists of Ironwood has entered the 75 as well which gives more edict protection.
With the rise of uninteractive decks requiring artifact activations or graveyard shenanigans, as well as the rise of "prison" cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Worship, and Chalice, the Leyline cuts open up 4 slots to give us better chances of drawing the answers we need.
So call me crazy, but I'm liking the no leylines version of it better for now. Post eldrazi ban when the meta settles again, Leylines very well may go back in. We'll see how the meta adjusts.
1
What do you mean by shrine helping you cast Breakers early? Breaker costs 7. Shrine doesn't do anything until you have 7 lands, so... ? You can ramp into him with dorks or Hedron Archive or Conduit cheapening the cost, but Shrine doesn't do anything for Breaker.
1
1
I like 1-3 of Conduit in the SB. It not only is great in the mirror, it also is just great vs control due to On Cast trigger ensuring we get another threat next turn while leaving a 5/5 body and "ramp" on the board if resolved. Also, with a Conduit I highly recommend a Void Winnower in the sideboard. That is the ultimate card in the mirror.
1
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/scg-standard-classic-louisville#paper
2nd place by Christopher OBryant playing the Elvish Visionary version:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/377283#paper
8th place by David Koon playing a Ruin in The Wake version (note - I believe he ran 7 forests, not 1, the land count is off on the list here):
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/377289#paper
So quiet ye naysayers saying the deck "isn't good enough past FNM"
1
Actually, just thought of something. Might be too cute, but might actually be good. Here's how Wall of Resurgence can work out favorably in the deck: make the deck GW instead of GR. Use Planar Outburst for the sweeper - which will not kill your animated lands from the Wall. Additionally, Sylvan Advocate will buff your animated lands, making the Wall of Resurgence animated land a 5/5 instead of a 3/3. Still has the same risks of going down a land, but at least far less likely since it avoids more removal spells with 5 toughness. Could also present a faster clock against slower decks. Might be worth testing a GW shell to see how it fares - I'm sure what Red can provide White can as well.
1
1
There's a couple options. One thing is focus on ramping to World Breaker and Oblivion Sower - if you take 1-2 White Sources you lock them out of being able to play Rally. For sideboard options, Hallowed Moonlight is the best one, though requires splashing white. It isn't hard to fit a single Plains in the deck that can be tutored by the various spells when you need it.