I am abit confused. When people say "top loaders" please tell me they aren't talking about the hard plastic loaders typically used for card transport top loaders?
That's exactly what they're talking about, and yes, it's terribly rude and obnoxious. If you're that worried about your cards, then just don't play with them. Keep them hermetically sealed and parked in a box somewhere where they'll be "safe" and never see the light of day. Because isn't that the point of Magic cards? It's not? Oh, oops, sorry.
I have to respectfully disagree. The reason that Burning Wish was restricted was because you could just play Yawgmoth's Will in your sideboard and then Wish for Will that way.
That's different. He didn't say "I hear having 5 ways to find your Yawgmoth's Will is good," he said "I hear having five copies of [...] Yawgmoth's Will is good." And it simply is not. 5 copies of Yawgmoth's will in a single deck would be stupid.
Will would be seen in multiple copies if it were unrestricted.
You might see some decks running 2 copies, but nobody would run more than that. And even if a few nutjobs did, it certainly wouldn't be "good," as Solaran_X asserted. It's not like Mind's Desire, where revealing another copy of Mind's Desire is insane. It's not like Ancestral Recall, where every copy is raw card advantage. It's like saying "I hear running 4 copies of Tendrils is good" in combo decks. It just isn't. Nor would running "5 copies of Yawgmoth's Will" be. You only need 1, maybe 2.
I hear having five copies of [...] Yawgmoth's Will, etc., etc. is good.
Really? Are you sure? I understand the point you're trying to make, but you should've thought your list through a little more thoroughly.
5 copies of Yawgmoth's Will would not be good in a deck. It's not exactly the kind of card you want to see in your opening hand, nor is it a good card to use over and over (unlike something like, say, Ancestral Recall). Once you've used it once, you've emptied your graveyard. Further copies are dead draws until you can fill up your graveyard again.
If Yawgmoth's Will were unrestricted, people would still only run 1 copy. This is precisely why Menendian has said restricting it hasn't neutered it, and he has called for its banning instead.
No, when a Vintage player buys a card, where does he do that? Secondary market. What's the profits for Wizards from that? Zero.
This is a bit of an oversimplification. Every set has a few cards that are playable in Vintage. And while you're correct that the majority of Vintage players will acquire these cards as singles on the secondary market, that money does trickle back to Wizards, via the pocket of the person who did crack the packs in the first place.
Think about it. If a Standard player bought a bunch of packs, then was unable to sell the Forbidden Orchards/Tarmogoyfs/Thoughtseizes/Whatever when they rotated out of Standard, that would affect the number of packs they bought when the next set came out. By buying the singles off these players, the Vintage players are indirectly feeding money back into the Standard marketplace.
the Toploaders is to protect the cards from damage($800+ for a card, is not pocket change).
Yes, I know. I have a Black Lotus too (and an Ancestral Recall, and several Moxes, and...). You're not the only person with valuable cards. We get it. However, we're not talking about a card losing $800 worth of value. If you play your Black Lotus in Dragon Shields, it's not suddenly going to go from $800 to $0. If you're really abusive with it, it might lose some value, say $50 or so. So what? It could just as easily go up in value anyway, due to the game becoming more popular. If you're really that super-paranoid about it, then why are you playing with it at all?
My point is that I think you're being selfish. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds to me like you're determined to play in organized events so people can see your cards and give them the proper "Oooo"-ing and "Aaaaa"-ing you think you're due, and you don't care that it's making it harder and more cumbersome for your opponetns to carry out the match with you. Surely you realize that lots of people have those cards, and it's not a big deal. You're not going to get people drooling and fawning over your deck just because you have a mint Black Lotus. It's Vintage. Join the club.
The other part is(with having a judge near, when someone is looking through a deck, which is for stopping thieves).
As I said, just watch them. I really don't see how this is an issue. If you're playing a match, and you hand your deck to your opponent to give it a quick shuffle before the match, how in the world are they supposed to be able to look through your deck, find a Lotus, and sneak it off the table without you noticing? Let's be realistic here. It's not a real concern.
trust me, having a Black Lotus(that you saved up a lot of money for), and a Timetwister stolen from you, is not fun at all
That's the second time you've brought that up. What makes you think you're the only person who's ever had Magic cards stolen from them?
You don't need to play in toploaders to prevent having a card stolen. And you don't need to "forbid" your opponents from touching your deck to prevent having a card stolen. They're right there in front of you. Just watch them!
That 10 Proxy rule in tournies, is relatively new, and is the worse thing that has ever happened to tournaments, as it allows people to proxy any 10 cards, (could've sworn it used to be six), even if they don't own the real cards (unless they changed that). That rule pretty much destroys tourny play.
Yes, just imagine how popular Vintage could've been today if it weren't for those non-sanctioned, proxy tournaments out there killing the format. [/sarcasm]
Annoying? Well, don't wory, I don't let players shuffle or even take my deck to look through it anymore(well without a judge watching from that side, anyway). I have to have a judge shuffle, and I need someone to watch my oponant go through me deck
Wow. No offense, but you would be super-annoying to get paired against in an event. All-toploader deck, requiring the judge to shuffle your deck every time you pop a fetchland, refusing to let me handle your deck if I Extirpate you... just wow. Thankfully, it sounds like you haven't attended an actual Vintage tournament in a long time.
There is no real rule that says you can't, and any judge worth his status would be against that.
It's up to the judge's discretion whether or not to permit toploaders. The relevant issue is, "is your opponent able to sufficiently randomize your deck within a reasonable time constraint?" If the judge deems that the toploaders impede this, they can (and often do) order the player to change the deck to regular sleeves.
PS. BTW there is never a Proxy limit, if you own the cards that you are Proxying. As long as you have the real cards with you, the judges have to allow it(make sure to brings the real cards along with you, to show the judges you own the cards).
This is false.
Most non-sanctioned events in North America permit up to 10 proxies. Sanctioned events, however, only permit proxies in 2 circumstances:
The card became damaged during the tournament, and is now recognizable (in constructed events); or
The card was already damaged to a recognizable extent when it came out of the pack (in limited events)
You are most definitely not permitted to proxy your cards in sanctioned events, just because you want to protect them.
Small nitpick: A card cannot be "Gem Mint" if it is signed. Gem Mint means it is in pristine, straight-outta-the-pack condition, without any damage at all, including being defaced with a sharpie.
Now a PSA Gem Mint Ali from Cairo sold for over $400 a few years back, so book value on a signed one in the same condition would be at least $1,000
I have no idea where you're pulling these numbers from, but signed cards are often worth less than unsigned versions in the same condition. Furthermore, the condition can affect the price variance, too. For example, if a card is already beat-up, getting it signed can make it worth a little more. However, taking a pristine, perfect card and getting it scribbled on can ruin it in the eyes of many collectors, and lower its value.
Personally, I detest signed cards. I think taking a pristine condition, iconic card and getting it signed ruins it. It breaks my heart to think that there are fewer and fewer truly "mint" Beta rares out there, as people get the cards signed. I treasure a nice, clean, mint condition card far far more than a signed version. You can always find signed versions somewhere, but the unsigned ones in perfect condition are truly rare and valuable, in my eyes.
Therefore I would love to see a judge even try to say, I can't use top loaders.
Many judges would, and rightfully so. It's great that you love your cards and want to protect them, but if you're so paranoid about even the slightest damage to them that you insist on sleeving your entire deck in toploaders, then you're probably not really at the tournament to win. You just want to show off your cards. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, that's an important part of the game. But tournaments are about competitive play, not just showing off blingy pimpness. When it comes to playing the tournament, use versions of your card that you're comfortable sleeving in normal sleeves, and keep your treasured cards safely tucked away in a binder or something.
Competitive tournaments are not a "show-and-tell." Nobody wants to slow the game down and admire each card you play. Your opponent is sitting across from you with the reasonable expectation of playing a competitive match, not to oooh and aaaah over your cards. After the match is the time for admiring the jewels in each others' collections.
To everyone reading this: Please don't use toploaders in tournaments. It's really friggin' annoying.
money:
Which money cards are useless now thanks to the ban?
No no no, it's not a matter of cards losing value, it's a matter of rendering decks unplayable. I have 3 competitive decks built that I play in tournaments: GAT, Flash, and Tyrant Oath. All 3 are now dead. This means that if I want to have any hope of winning future tournaments, I need to build a new deck. So I now have to look at buying Dreadnaughts and Illusionary Masks, or Grindstones and Painter's Servants, or Tarmogoyfs or Thoughtseizes or whatever. The point is, I can no longer play the decks I've already paid for - I have to buy new ones.
Why are so many vintage players afraid of changes?
Are you being rhetorical, or do you seriously not get it?
"Money" and "comfort." It's not really that hard to understand. Massive changes to the format mean new decks will emerge, and our old decks become useless. I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of Vintage cards are expensive. We've spent a lot of money acquiring cards to build many of our favorite decks, and now suddenly those decks are no longer competitive, and our expensive cards are heading back to the binder.
At the same time, we'll be forced to head back to StarCity or eBay to buy whatever cards go into the Next Big Deck. Painter's Servants and Grindstones have already skyrocketed in price in the past 2 months. Many of us don't really relish the thought of opening our wallets up again. That's why we play Vintage. So the cards we buy once never rotate out, and stay good forever. It's not the DCI's job to force changes on the format.
As for "comfort," well, I've played a lot of games with my favorite decks (GAT, Tyrant Oath, and Flash), which are all now dead. So all the time I've invested mastering those decks is now wasted, and I'll need to invest more time learning new decks. While I'm sure that's not a problem for basement-dwelling Facebookers, those with lives, jobs, and families consider this a drawback. More than likely, they'll just sit on the sidelines and skip the next few tournaments until the format settles itself out.
This argument is stupid. Nobody is considering the most important question of all regarding this issue:
What does Wizards stand to gain by reprinting power?
They obviously would not be legal in Standard, so they'd alienate their biggest (and most profitable) playerbase. Why on Earth would Wizards want to do that?
It would open Pandora's Box and set a dangerous precedent. Even if they did reprint power and all the little cheapskates got a couple Moxes, then they'd be complaining that dual lands are too expensive, or maybe Tinker, or Yawgmoth's Bargain. Heck, why doesn't Wizards just reprint every card they've ever made and sell singles off their website for a dollar each? Is that what you want? Would that make you happy? I can't think of a faster way to completely destroy any collectibility of the game.
Folks, this is a collectible card came. The collectibility of the game is part of what attracts people to it.
Wizards will never, and should never, reprint anything on the reserved list.
decks that use more power tend to do better than decks that do not.
So GAT could be improved by adding Timetwister? What savage tech! Amazing how absolutely no one is running Timetwister in GAT, when it would obviously make it better!
I think you're both overestimating how many cards cost $225 or more, and the raw power of the "Power 9." Heck, not even Mox Pearl costs that much anymore. If you think you can make a winning deck with all the power 9, 4 Workshops, 4 Bazaars, and 4 Mana Drains, just because they're expensive, then you clearly do not know much about Vintage. The fact is that the best decks in the format can all be built relatively cheaply, in a 10-proxy environment. You don't have to buy any cards that cost more than $100, and even that's just if you run Mana Drains. If you run a deck without Drains, then the most expensive cards on your list will be Underground Seas, at about $35 each.
I'd suggest you quietly back away from this discussion before you say something truly stupid.
Most tier 1 vintage decks use at least 11-15 cards that are currently valued at $225 or greater.
While I agree with the majority of your post, this statement is incorrect and misleading. The current best decks in Vintage are Gro-a-Tog, Flash, Stax, and Bomberman. Gro requires the Lotus, 5 moxes, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk. That's only 8 cards that cost more than $225. Flash requires even fewer (Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, 2 moxes, and maybe Time Walk). Bomberman is the same 5. Stax comes the closest to your claim, requiring 11 expensive cards. (Lotus, 5 Moxes, Ancestral, 4 Workshops).
Clearly, the best decks do not require "at least 11-15 $225+ cards." They can easily be built with 10 proxies.
That's exactly what they're talking about, and yes, it's terribly rude and obnoxious. If you're that worried about your cards, then just don't play with them. Keep them hermetically sealed and parked in a box somewhere where they'll be "safe" and never see the light of day. Because isn't that the point of Magic cards? It's not? Oh, oops, sorry.
That's different. He didn't say "I hear having 5 ways to find your Yawgmoth's Will is good," he said "I hear having five copies of [...] Yawgmoth's Will is good." And it simply is not. 5 copies of Yawgmoth's will in a single deck would be stupid.
You might see some decks running 2 copies, but nobody would run more than that. And even if a few nutjobs did, it certainly wouldn't be "good," as Solaran_X asserted. It's not like Mind's Desire, where revealing another copy of Mind's Desire is insane. It's not like Ancestral Recall, where every copy is raw card advantage. It's like saying "I hear running 4 copies of Tendrils is good" in combo decks. It just isn't. Nor would running "5 copies of Yawgmoth's Will" be. You only need 1, maybe 2.
Really? Are you sure? I understand the point you're trying to make, but you should've thought your list through a little more thoroughly.
5 copies of Yawgmoth's Will would not be good in a deck. It's not exactly the kind of card you want to see in your opening hand, nor is it a good card to use over and over (unlike something like, say, Ancestral Recall). Once you've used it once, you've emptied your graveyard. Further copies are dead draws until you can fill up your graveyard again.
If Yawgmoth's Will were unrestricted, people would still only run 1 copy. This is precisely why Menendian has said restricting it hasn't neutered it, and he has called for its banning instead.
This is a bit of an oversimplification. Every set has a few cards that are playable in Vintage. And while you're correct that the majority of Vintage players will acquire these cards as singles on the secondary market, that money does trickle back to Wizards, via the pocket of the person who did crack the packs in the first place.
Think about it. If a Standard player bought a bunch of packs, then was unable to sell the Forbidden Orchards/Tarmogoyfs/Thoughtseizes/Whatever when they rotated out of Standard, that would affect the number of packs they bought when the next set came out. By buying the singles off these players, the Vintage players are indirectly feeding money back into the Standard marketplace.
Yes, I know. I have a Black Lotus too (and an Ancestral Recall, and several Moxes, and...). You're not the only person with valuable cards. We get it. However, we're not talking about a card losing $800 worth of value. If you play your Black Lotus in Dragon Shields, it's not suddenly going to go from $800 to $0. If you're really abusive with it, it might lose some value, say $50 or so. So what? It could just as easily go up in value anyway, due to the game becoming more popular. If you're really that super-paranoid about it, then why are you playing with it at all?
My point is that I think you're being selfish. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds to me like you're determined to play in organized events so people can see your cards and give them the proper "Oooo"-ing and "Aaaaa"-ing you think you're due, and you don't care that it's making it harder and more cumbersome for your opponetns to carry out the match with you. Surely you realize that lots of people have those cards, and it's not a big deal. You're not going to get people drooling and fawning over your deck just because you have a mint Black Lotus. It's Vintage. Join the club.
As I said, just watch them. I really don't see how this is an issue. If you're playing a match, and you hand your deck to your opponent to give it a quick shuffle before the match, how in the world are they supposed to be able to look through your deck, find a Lotus, and sneak it off the table without you noticing? Let's be realistic here. It's not a real concern.
That's the second time you've brought that up. What makes you think you're the only person who's ever had Magic cards stolen from them?
You don't need to play in toploaders to prevent having a card stolen. And you don't need to "forbid" your opponents from touching your deck to prevent having a card stolen. They're right there in front of you. Just watch them!
Yes, just imagine how popular Vintage could've been today if it weren't for those non-sanctioned, proxy tournaments out there killing the format. [/sarcasm]
Wow. No offense, but you would be super-annoying to get paired against in an event. All-toploader deck, requiring the judge to shuffle your deck every time you pop a fetchland, refusing to let me handle your deck if I Extirpate you... just wow. Thankfully, it sounds like you haven't attended an actual Vintage tournament in a long time.
Those are very annoying for your opponents.
It's up to the judge's discretion whether or not to permit toploaders. The relevant issue is, "is your opponent able to sufficiently randomize your deck within a reasonable time constraint?" If the judge deems that the toploaders impede this, they can (and often do) order the player to change the deck to regular sleeves.
This is false.
Most non-sanctioned events in North America permit up to 10 proxies. Sanctioned events, however, only permit proxies in 2 circumstances:
- The card became damaged during the tournament, and is now recognizable (in constructed events); or
- The card was already damaged to a recognizable extent when it came out of the pack (in limited events)
You are most definitely not permitted to proxy your cards in sanctioned events, just because you want to protect them.Small nitpick: A card cannot be "Gem Mint" if it is signed. Gem Mint means it is in pristine, straight-outta-the-pack condition, without any damage at all, including being defaced with a sharpie.
I have no idea where you're pulling these numbers from, but signed cards are often worth less than unsigned versions in the same condition. Furthermore, the condition can affect the price variance, too. For example, if a card is already beat-up, getting it signed can make it worth a little more. However, taking a pristine, perfect card and getting it scribbled on can ruin it in the eyes of many collectors, and lower its value.
Personally, I detest signed cards. I think taking a pristine condition, iconic card and getting it signed ruins it. It breaks my heart to think that there are fewer and fewer truly "mint" Beta rares out there, as people get the cards signed. I treasure a nice, clean, mint condition card far far more than a signed version. You can always find signed versions somewhere, but the unsigned ones in perfect condition are truly rare and valuable, in my eyes.
Many judges would, and rightfully so. It's great that you love your cards and want to protect them, but if you're so paranoid about even the slightest damage to them that you insist on sleeving your entire deck in toploaders, then you're probably not really at the tournament to win. You just want to show off your cards. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, that's an important part of the game. But tournaments are about competitive play, not just showing off blingy pimpness. When it comes to playing the tournament, use versions of your card that you're comfortable sleeving in normal sleeves, and keep your treasured cards safely tucked away in a binder or something.
Competitive tournaments are not a "show-and-tell." Nobody wants to slow the game down and admire each card you play. Your opponent is sitting across from you with the reasonable expectation of playing a competitive match, not to oooh and aaaah over your cards. After the match is the time for admiring the jewels in each others' collections.
To everyone reading this: Please don't use toploaders in tournaments. It's really friggin' annoying.
Flash is dead because of the restriction of Flash and Merchant Scroll.
GAT is dead because of the restriction of Gush and Merchant Scroll.
Tyrant Oath is dead because of the restriction of Gush and Brainstorm.
No no no, it's not a matter of cards losing value, it's a matter of rendering decks unplayable. I have 3 competitive decks built that I play in tournaments: GAT, Flash, and Tyrant Oath. All 3 are now dead. This means that if I want to have any hope of winning future tournaments, I need to build a new deck. So I now have to look at buying Dreadnaughts and Illusionary Masks, or Grindstones and Painter's Servants, or Tarmogoyfs or Thoughtseizes or whatever. The point is, I can no longer play the decks I've already paid for - I have to buy new ones.
Actually, that's exactly what it's like. That was my whole point regarding the "money" issue.
Are you being rhetorical, or do you seriously not get it?
"Money" and "comfort." It's not really that hard to understand. Massive changes to the format mean new decks will emerge, and our old decks become useless. I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of Vintage cards are expensive. We've spent a lot of money acquiring cards to build many of our favorite decks, and now suddenly those decks are no longer competitive, and our expensive cards are heading back to the binder.
At the same time, we'll be forced to head back to StarCity or eBay to buy whatever cards go into the Next Big Deck. Painter's Servants and Grindstones have already skyrocketed in price in the past 2 months. Many of us don't really relish the thought of opening our wallets up again. That's why we play Vintage. So the cards we buy once never rotate out, and stay good forever. It's not the DCI's job to force changes on the format.
As for "comfort," well, I've played a lot of games with my favorite decks (GAT, Tyrant Oath, and Flash), which are all now dead. So all the time I've invested mastering those decks is now wasted, and I'll need to invest more time learning new decks. While I'm sure that's not a problem for basement-dwelling Facebookers, those with lives, jobs, and families consider this a drawback. More than likely, they'll just sit on the sidelines and skip the next few tournaments until the format settles itself out.
I thought these reasons were obvious.
Isn't that what Standard is for?
What does Wizards stand to gain by reprinting power?
They obviously would not be legal in Standard, so they'd alienate their biggest (and most profitable) playerbase. Why on Earth would Wizards want to do that?
It would open Pandora's Box and set a dangerous precedent. Even if they did reprint power and all the little cheapskates got a couple Moxes, then they'd be complaining that dual lands are too expensive, or maybe Tinker, or Yawgmoth's Bargain. Heck, why doesn't Wizards just reprint every card they've ever made and sell singles off their website for a dollar each? Is that what you want? Would that make you happy? I can't think of a faster way to completely destroy any collectibility of the game.
Folks, this is a collectible card came. The collectibility of the game is part of what attracts people to it.
Wizards will never, and should never, reprint anything on the reserved list.
So GAT could be improved by adding Timetwister? What savage tech! Amazing how absolutely no one is running Timetwister in GAT, when it would obviously make it better!
I think you're both overestimating how many cards cost $225 or more, and the raw power of the "Power 9." Heck, not even Mox Pearl costs that much anymore. If you think you can make a winning deck with all the power 9, 4 Workshops, 4 Bazaars, and 4 Mana Drains, just because they're expensive, then you clearly do not know much about Vintage. The fact is that the best decks in the format can all be built relatively cheaply, in a 10-proxy environment. You don't have to buy any cards that cost more than $100, and even that's just if you run Mana Drains. If you run a deck without Drains, then the most expensive cards on your list will be Underground Seas, at about $35 each.
I'd suggest you quietly back away from this discussion before you say something truly stupid.
While I agree with the majority of your post, this statement is incorrect and misleading. The current best decks in Vintage are Gro-a-Tog, Flash, Stax, and Bomberman. Gro requires the Lotus, 5 moxes, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk. That's only 8 cards that cost more than $225. Flash requires even fewer (Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, 2 moxes, and maybe Time Walk). Bomberman is the same 5. Stax comes the closest to your claim, requiring 11 expensive cards. (Lotus, 5 Moxes, Ancestral, 4 Workshops).
Clearly, the best decks do not require "at least 11-15 $225+ cards." They can easily be built with 10 proxies.