Bottom Line, like you said: What's better than her? Hmmm...what indeed? If she lives, Good things happen. And, I know she seeeeeems slow, but, remember just how much a disruption deck can slow that tick-tock-tick-tock. Resources are strained. Spells are getting disappeared. Lines of normal progression are retarded. That's why she is so good. Not because she is in a Jund deck that features a few thoughtseize and abrupt decay. She's Better because she is in a Blitzkrieg deck that hammers harder: Double Discard and Phyrexian Obliterators form a bulwark a hell of a lot better than a Kitchen Finks.
Consume the Meek VS. Damnation. Consume takes the edge because it doesn't kill our Obliterator/Oliva, it's an instant, and it kills manlands: Jund/Abzan/Affinity/Infect as well as Flash Creatures (twin), haste creatures (burn) and Collected Company plays. I get that Damnation is good, but I'd never play more than one damnation (nor would I play more than one Consume, but I mention that because it's important to note that Damnation is not a sideboard cornerstone card). For the most part, I'm tracking against an opponent's game 2 with tit-for-tat removal of their creatures as they come out. A lot creature kill comes in and the double discard keeps them humbled. So, yeah, they might start to race ahead a little - sure. But, Most of an Obliterator Build is discard and creature kill...and a few Beefcake Monsters. We are ready for creature rush in game 2. And, Damnation resets the board entirely. From a dead start, we are not going to recover faster than a weenie, swarm deck - our discard becomes useless, and we have little draw/dig. They will begin to reassemble, and we'll be left with a Liliana on 1 and a broken Batterskull (and, that's a Best Case Scenario).
Yeah, there aren't really any great 4 drops for our kind of deck in B/R.
Not even any fancy Planeswalkers or so.
I guess she can stay for now. :3
About Consume: I totally missed that it's instant.
Gotta admit, that's kinda sweet.
A boardwipe that hits manlands or at least forces the opponent to use a counter on their turn? yummy.
I'll give it another shot I guess and see how it does....if it ever shows up to begin with that is. I hope it won't just hide in the depths of the deck like Sowing Salt does every time. ;__;
@oldmangrieves - I've give the Prowler some thought, though I'm currently running the angler version. Honestly I never really tested it enough, but I have noticed that I feel like 1 option short in that slot. I've thought about Bloodghast also (even though he's arguably not castable and something that we'd be hoping to pitch to Liliana or Faithless Looting).
Some things I've recently considered:
Boom // Bust - though land destruction may not help us, the ability to cast the spell targeting a fetch land, then sacrificing the land and getting another one prior to resolution is tempting and just getting a free one of theirs. The problem is in order to have 2 mana and 1 sac-able land it needs to be turn 3. So this is a 3 drop and may as well run the other land destruction options at that slot (Molten Rain, and the guy that just got reprinted who's name escapes me right now).
Rise // Fall - Fall - Talking about random stuff makes me feel like I should bust out the old hypergeometric calculator. Consider the following: Assume that the average hand that is kept has 3 lands in it. With most competitive decks curving out well this gives a T1 play and a T2 play available in most hands. Assume also that the opponent is running 22 lands, leaving 19 in the deck on T0. If we are on the draw: the opponent has played 2 lands, and drawn one card, and played 2 cards by the time the play comes back to us. Sparing most of the math and doing some rounding we are looking at about a 35% chance that (given a 3 land keep) the opponents hand is 1/2 lands. Play this card and the odds that we will see no cards is only roughly 6%. Now, this does account for flooding (in my experience when an opponent floods we win anyway). And this doesn't account for 1 or 2 land keeps or mulligans. Mulligans the odds get more extreme in both directions, lesser land count keeps the odds get better or stay the same. Competitively - is this too much of a chance that nothing will happen? Probably. Darn. That one had potential. But does the "do it at random" piece play a factor? Hmmmm... Maybe I'll try it.
Magma Jets - Hmmmm... In early testing I really liked this card. Stax (another denial build focused around land destruction/disruption) plays it as a 4-of because they get to the same place we do: the top-deck war. It does top-deck fixing, and it gets rid of just about everything that we play lightning bolt to get rid of (I'm having honest trouble thinking of a 1 or 2-drop critter with 3 toughness that gets played often enough other land buffed Zoo guys). Super helpful against affinity and infect in game 1 and could swing those matchups in our favor. Maybe this is worth considering a 2-of in this deck? But where?
Side note. I'm also experimenting with running 61 cards (4th bolt). Blasphemy! I think our curve can handle it. Math suggests that the increase in mana-screw potential is so negligible that its laughable. All while dropping the odds of drawing any other 4-of by the first card drawn and 3-of by the second cards drawn by only .6%... Hmmm. Seems favorable enough for me.
While Fall doesn't have the great power Hymn to Tourach holds, it can still be pretty nice, especially after a t1 discard effect to see how the odds are.
The question is though, perhaps RG tron and Affinity aside, how much is the random effect that wiffs on lands worth compared to the opponent choosing to discard 2?
It's hard to evaluate in my opinion, as it depends on the skill and draws of our opponent, if they keep greedier cards they might get punished, but the random effect can just as well take the things they don't want to lose at that moment, or take things that turn out to be the best for them, even though they couldn't have know that on t2 and wouldn't have made those decisions.
Yes, that's all theoretical stuff, BUT the fact that it doesn't ensure a 2 for 1 discard makes it quite lacking compared to Wrench (and big daddy Hymn).
But I'd be glad to hear some of your experiences with playtesting and I think I'll give it another shot as well (I tried it in a different deck before).
May RNGsus bless us.
Without t1 discard to see their hand, even more so g1, it can be awkward though and just do nothing.
And with a Blightning for t3 the random effect matters even less, as they'll be down so many cards anyway.
The issue I see with 20 dorks and +40 mana sources is that they are bad topdecks if you don't have at least either part of the combo out.
Granted, once you hit the Wild Pair or tutor it's basically online in most cases (perhaps some Eternal Witnesses and/or Primal Commands to have a way around removal), at least once you play another dork.
And with the Gigantomancer your dorks can fight well enough to defend themselves.
But only mana dorks until you have the combo seems iffy. ^^
I always just noticed that it's "same /total/ p&t" not just same.
Hm, there might be some more sweet things to tutor for out there...
Edit: Besides maybe Panglacial Wurm, which seems a bit too cute, there aren't. ^^
How is a 0/1 that much worse than a 1/1. At least she provides more colours and you don't really want to block with your guys anyways, for the most part.
And you don't need 20 mana dorks.
Either cut them back severely and add more utility or reduce your 21 lands by a couple and cut some.
If you are ok with going Bant (U/G/W) you could play Noble Hierarch and Sphinx's Revelation to be able to search for your combo and survive longer while doing so.
That's just some ideas from the top of my head though. ^^
I've been thinking more and more about creature counts and threats. With a Delver build, I'm leary about only running 5 creatures, and there is the prospect that Lavaclaw Reaches may get replaced. Still, the 4 Faithless Looting does draw us into those threats more readily. So, I guess 5 is O.K.
On an Obliterator Build, I really love running 8 creatures, and I'd never leave behind my lavaclaw reaches. 8 kind of moves me closer to the Jund/Abzan style of play: generalized discard, removal, and value creatures. And, my creatures? Well, they're better than theirs.
But, am I running the best ones for the job (my decklist is at the top of this page)? I don't think so. Geralf's Messenger has done really well for me, but he comes in tapped, and he's my cheapest creature. So, I don't have a potential blocker until turn 4. Sometimes that's ok, but a lot of times it isn't. So, I'm thinking of making him into a Nyxathid? Right now, Nyxathid is in my sideboard as a duo. They come in against Zoo, Affinity, and Burn. I need them very badly against those matchups. Nyxathid isn't nearly as powerful against Patriot or slower decks. But, you know what? He doesn't have to be. I feel favored in those contests. So, if comes up a little short when I'm facing Twin or UWr Control, so be it - I'll probably be o.k. anyway.
So, look at it this way: Gerry is pretty good against most decks, but might be a bit slow against uber-aggro (such decks are a bad 1st game matchup for The Black Panzer Party). Nyxathid is an all-star against uber-aggro, and it might be lackluster against more plodding, fair decks (such decks are a good 1st game matchup for The Black Panzer Party). So, I'm just hedging my bets a little more effectively by positioning a Nyxathid on the front line instead of a Geralf's.
Alright, I'll have a glass of the Kool-Aid that every single other deck in this thread is drinking. Nyxathids all around, comrades. What else? Thundermaw Hellkite. It's a juggernaut that shreds. It can close out games, kill fliers, and smash planeswalkers. I like him. You know what he doesn't do, though? Stop a horde. Lotta hordes out there these days. Lotta Hordes. Phyrexian Obliterator will stop a horde dead short unless they are gambling for a lethal strike. Batterskull will also stop an amassed ground assault. And, Batterskull gives me life. Lotta need for that these days too. What if? What if I swap that Hellkite for a 2nd Batterskull? Huh. Hellkite is pretty good at kicking in the front door of every deck out there, but it can't stop a Zoo Horde, and it can't slow down an assault by 2 Goblin Guide and a Monastery Swiftspear. Nope, those Kird Ape and Loam Lion brigades will charge full tilt just to get that extra couple of points of damage in - even if one of them ends up in a dragon's belly.
Like the previous comparison of Geralf's Vs. Nyx, this is Hellkite Vs. Skull. Both pretty good phat beats, but the Batterskull gives me a decided edge against a Game 1 tough matchup: Uber-Aggro. So, hedge this one up again. The Batterskull wins.
So, that means I now have one extra slot open in my sideboard. Eeeeeeexcellent.
I fully agree on swapping Thundermaw Hellkite for a second Batterskull. I've also already though about doing so, because the dragon doesn't really offer anything besides damage, which seems pretty lackluster for 5 mana.
As you said, it doesn't really stop offense and can also be easier removed than Batterskull, especially once you untap with it.
I'm also a bit conflicted about Olivia.
Yes, she is good. Potentially amazing even.
But that requires a relatively stable board state, as she isn't really a huge threat when played on t4.
As a 6-drop that is a 4/4 flier and kills one of their guys potentially, or prepares the steal on the next turn, she can be really good and also be save from bolt.
But a 3/3 for 4 doesn't do much.
In an even slower deck, like Grixis or Cruel Control or so, I think she is better, as she'll more often be able to hit on an relatively empty board and probably also has some mana to play with.
But here she feels a lot like a win more card. If she resolves and the opponent has no answer, she's amazing and can easily win the game on her own.
As a catch-up card that can also eventually win she's not really as reliable as our other guys, imo.
But I'm also not sure what to replace her with.
Another oddity in your list is the Consume the Meek in the sb, replacing Damnation.
I get the idea behind it (t4 Obliterator into t5 Consume and clear the field), but that seems rather utopian to me.
Where would I want Consume the Meek?
Against Elves, Delver, possibly Burn, Affinity, Podless Pod, possibly Jund/Junk...
In those cases a board wipe that gets rid of a bunch of small stuff is pretty useful.
In those cases a board wipe that comes as early as t5, and perhaps even later if you draw a tap land or none, is also WAY too late.
Elves have overrun you by then or just make a ton of mana and regenerate every thing, Delver can probably keep counters up or has Tasigur / Angler out on the field, Burn has you low enough to no longer need creatures and so on.
The point is: I'd MUCH rather completely and reliably wipe the board on t4 and t5 drop any of my bombs instead of trying to hang in t4 and wiping (some) of the board on 5 or have nothing much on 4, wipe on 5 and batterskull on 6.
Especially against Grixis Delver Damnation is very nice. They often can get a very early Delve guy out thanks to out discard (t2 Tasigur hype. ;_;) and where Drown in Sorrow solves the issue against most other decks as well as Consume does, and if I don't draw the things I need a Damnation can be an emergency Terminate.
In an ideal world we wouldn't need to worry much about this, but sadly not every hand has t1 to 3 discard that gets through and some removal and draws all the lands it needs and has an Obliterator out on 4, ready to take over.
And in the less than perfect cases, when the discard didn't get through or do enough, a universal "Oh *****!" button is more useful than a more expensive and more narrow solution.
But it might as well be that that's the control player in me speaking and I have it all wrong, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. ^^
While I do like the deck and the time and effort Raystackand others have put into it, a couple of things I didn't like for my play style.....too many 1x cards....while they are damn good cards in certain match-ups, they just never show up at the right time. never saw the Chandra/Olivia card the entire night for example, had Infernal Tutor one time, etc.
Blightning and Wrench Mind really want me to put Waste Not in the deck to add to the 2 drop slot and provide some earlier pressure for the deck while ramping to Obliterator...Raystack, would love your thoughts on that, possibly 2-3 Waste Not in place of the Whisper/Affliction/Command slots?
I don't think Waste Not is what this deck wants.
Waste Not decks are build quite differently and it is more of a card that wants to be build around than a universally good thing in any discard deck.
t2 Waste Not can be great, but later in the game...probably not. Once we are in topdeck wars Shrieking Affliction and Night's Whisper can be great! A free Bump in the Night every turn? Yes please!
More cards? Oh boy!
Waste Not?...uhm...it is a card, I guess...
In a more controlling, rack-esque deck, in conjuction with e.g. Shrieking Affliction Waste Not can be good later (Hold cards to avoid damage or play them to avoid Waste Not shenanigans?).
But here I don't think so, especially not as a replacement for our single and only, but still so awesome, draw and "alternative", passive win-con in stalemate situations. ^^
So that's the issue with late Waste Not, but what about early? It's surely good there, right?
Maybe.
The problem is that this deck isn't super fast nor runs permission spells, so discard is our way of controlling the opponent's threats and reducing them to a much safer level that we can easily deal with.
I often find that the best thing I can hope to do on turn 2 is Wrench their Mind.
Their is often not much going on on the board yet that warrants attention and getting an early 2 for 1 is super good.
Doing so turn 3 can sometimes already be too late.
Even on the play you might find that after your t2 Waste Not there sits a Young Pyromancer on the other side, and even though you have your Terminate, you're now 2 turn late on your discard.
Or risk the discard and have a bunch of tokens left over once you dealt with the Pyromance, while your opponent gave you some Black Mana to....not really do much with and perhaps a draw or a Zombie that they just bolt and move on...right into your face.
Waste Not in this deck seems not really great.
In a more Bridge and rack-oriented deck they may work, because you have other tools to deal with what your opponent might have done while you got your Waste Not going, but in this deck and the Obliterator build specifically I don't think it adds enough or the right stuff.
I've gone from 4 to 0. Yes, I tried 0 for a while. Then I went to 1, and now I'm on 2. Obviously it depends on the build. When I dropped a Kolaghan's Command, I lost that shock modality, so I naturally buffered up with an additional lightning bolt. I don't want to like the card, because it's strictly one-for-one, and I'm not generally the guy that needs a bolt to close out the game before it slips from my grasp. You know what deck needs a bolt for that reason? Burn.
I'm not gonna say that Bolt is a 'win-more' card, but I will say that it doesn't explicitly further my agenda. It's just...there. It's real purpose is creature control, and if I'm on the play in game 2 and I don't have to fear early creature beats, then it's sided out (for more specified creature kill: Pharika's Cure/Night of Souls' Betrayal/Slaughter Pact). That said, it's not that it gets sided out that much (truthfully, it doesn't), it's more that I've 'pre-sideboarded' my count down to 2 for the main deck. That sounds hokey, but I believe that if I did run 4 bolts, then I would often side 2 out in game 2.
Speaking of sideboards, I printed out the Tier 1 decklist page and the Tier 2 decklist page from MTGsalvation, and painstakingly wrote down my sideboard card-for-card strategy against each main deck type. It was actually a cool experience, and I was surprised at the patterns that emerged. It also showed frequencies, and allowed me to further sculpt my back-up arsenal. Nihil Spellbomb rarely came in as a 2-of, and mostly it comes in against decks that I already feel favored in (Patriot/Delver style) where it's application is a little underwhelming. So, it quickly became a slaughter games. Sooooo Good. Anyway, I do recommend this exercise for those of you who are looking to take your decks to the next level. Best Part? It's perfectly legal to take these notes to your local tournament - talk about some intimidation!
First, you're playing a deck that your opponent has never seen or heard about, so he's struggling to figure out a way to cobble together a reasonable plan of attack in game 2. Second, you can probably recite his decklist to him (if it's a netdeck), and you've gotten prepared documents with step by step instructions on how to disable his deck. Be sure to bring out your notes with a loud 'ahem', throat clearing, produce your reading glasses which you shift to the end of your nose, lean back in your chair, and start nodding your head approvingly with each note that you read. Ha!
That sounds like a pretty interesting exercise indeed.
I've been playing with your list for a bit now, since I got around to finally get those damn Lilis, and it's even more fun to play than I anticipated.
Love the m,ix of discard and nasty big guys like the Obliterators. :3
Though I'm usually having a plan for most match-ups, writing it down and thinking about it some more can't hurt.
I also really like the look of your new sideboard.
But that might just be me being hyped about Slaughter Games, that card is just great fun to have. ;D
Not sure how useful it is to go that deep into the "can't search" theme.
For such a deck Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter are more useful than Shadow of Doubt, due to their continuity.
Granted, Maralen can provide a fun softlock, though in that case an Isochron Scepter with Shadow of Doubt sounds like the best approach, as that would let us still tutor-draw and only lock out the opponent.
On the other hand, the lock needs to be tight, if they kept a Spell Snare or artifact removal or similar in hand, they get to tutor and sadness is likely to ensue. ^^
I had this idea to make a deck that uses Shadow of Doubt recently too.
Partially because I wanted to brew a Dimir control deck, but also because I wanted to give my Rakdos control deck another shot.
My main idea for the latter was something along the lines of t2 Shadow of Doubt into t3 Fulminator Mage, to slow the opponent down and deny resources.
Most decks use either fetches, which make SoD basically a cantripping Sinkhole (Oh my...), or some other form of tutoring. From Bloom and Tron to even Elves or Soul Sister, a lot of decks could get hit by it.
And in match-ups that don't it cantrips g1 and offers 4 free sideboard slots right away as well.
I'm interested in other people's ideas as well though. Shadow of Doubt seems like a really sweet and fun card to play, so I'm definitely looking forward to trying some shenanigans with it.
Only waiting for Fulminator Mages to get cheaper on Modo, now that MM2 is out, then I'll get a set of those 2. :3
Oh, I nearly forgot:
I like your Ghost Quarter plan. Abusing it is really fun, I love to do it in my Mill deck, though sadly there Shadow of Doubt would be rather counterproductive when it comes to getting Archive Traps in.
If you want to go Esper or Jeskai with your deck though you could also use SoD with Path of Exile, though that would make it "only" a cantripping Unmake with a slightly different cost.
In a world w/o removal that'd be a neat set-up for storm.
Play a couple on t2/3, sac them as Goblin Electromancer-cheapened rituals when you go off.
Too bad it's only a manabattery and doesn't actually generate and mana.
Well...and has as much of a target on his head as the afore mentioned goblin has.^^
For decks that can protect him and reliably make use of the ability it seems like a cute trick though to boost out a 5 drop on turn 3 e.g..
I played against him at a PTQ last year, he actually won that PTQ too. He was playing Unstorm. I think hes the only person ever to get results with the deck.
Lol really!Saw him playing at mkm seriese in Rome on YouTube and he seems a robot...plays really really fast cantrips scrying cards thinking not more than one second...he's not human!
Anyway tested a lot his decklist during these days and found it really solid...it has better matchups than the original UR list.4x bolts against burn,affinity and infect and 4x remands against twin help a lot...
I've played some with that deck too, as it seems really interesting, but I'm not fully sold on it.
Besides it being hardly playable in Modo due to even bigger time issues than U/R Storm already has, it appears to be (even) more of a combo deck and doesn't seem to do much besides it's combo.
W/o 2x Manamorphose, 2x Noxious Revival AND an active Ascension there isn't even a combo going on. So it already needs more to get started and is incredibly dependant on PA, which makes it even less consistent and flexible.
But the combo itself doesn't really do much either.
So w/o 2 Ascensions or a Remand to play and counter itself to draw 1 every 2 cycles, you won't go anywhere with the infinite mana and storm counter you produce.
I have to say that it is quite nice to be able to combo off at instant speed, did that yesterday in response to an Abrupt Decay targeting my just played PA, until 10 minutes later I accidentally pressed my OK key once too often and let it resolve, but by then I would have only won one game (in this case the 2nd vs Junk) and had basically no time left.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong or getting terrible draws (never seen a Young Pyromancer at all post board... :/), but it seems like a way more restrictive, easier to break and harder to set up version of Storm, that can't really do jack without Ascension and the yard.
Am I missing a point here or was that just a super specific brew for that one tournament's meta game or so?
It also makes me really wish I had a paper playgroup, because there the deck is probably a lot easier and more fun to play than in Modo with the bajillion clicks you have to do. ^^
So I've been trying to justify the 3rd empty in the sideboard. is the 3rd one actually that important?
I think having 3 of them is pretty nice vs anything that tries to mess with us after boarding.
So, anything with white and/or black e.g.
Empty the Warrens gets around Leylines and Rest in Peace by not having to target and, while slower than a Grapeshot, needing a way lower stormcount to kill, so having no graveyard as well as discard is less of an issue.
Imo it's an a bit slower but a lot more easy to get off win-con than Grapeshot and in matches where you want to board them in you'll also often want them early on.
A hand with Empty and a couple rituals to "go off" on turn two or three can be pretty hard to deal with when there are suddenly ~8 goblins on the board and it costs barely any resources.
If only they had haste... ^^
Yeah, there aren't really any great 4 drops for our kind of deck in B/R.
Not even any fancy Planeswalkers or so.
I guess she can stay for now. :3
About Consume: I totally missed that it's instant.
Gotta admit, that's kinda sweet.
A boardwipe that hits manlands or at least forces the opponent to use a counter on their turn? yummy.
I'll give it another shot I guess and see how it does....if it ever shows up to begin with that is. I hope it won't just hide in the depths of the deck like Sowing Salt does every time. ;__;
While Fall doesn't have the great power Hymn to Tourach holds, it can still be pretty nice, especially after a t1 discard effect to see how the odds are.
The question is though, perhaps RG tron and Affinity aside, how much is the random effect that wiffs on lands worth compared to the opponent choosing to discard 2?
It's hard to evaluate in my opinion, as it depends on the skill and draws of our opponent, if they keep greedier cards they might get punished, but the random effect can just as well take the things they don't want to lose at that moment, or take things that turn out to be the best for them, even though they couldn't have know that on t2 and wouldn't have made those decisions.
Yes, that's all theoretical stuff, BUT the fact that it doesn't ensure a 2 for 1 discard makes it quite lacking compared to Wrench (and big daddy Hymn).
But I'd be glad to hear some of your experiences with playtesting and I think I'll give it another shot as well (I tried it in a different deck before).
May RNGsus bless us.
Without t1 discard to see their hand, even more so g1, it can be awkward though and just do nothing.
And with a Blightning for t3 the random effect matters even less, as they'll be down so many cards anyway.
Granted, once you hit the Wild Pair or tutor it's basically online in most cases (perhaps some Eternal Witnesses and/or Primal Commands to have a way around removal), at least once you play another dork.
And with the Gigantomancer your dorks can fight well enough to defend themselves.
But only mana dorks until you have the combo seems iffy. ^^
I always just noticed that it's "same /total/ p&t" not just same.
Hm, there might be some more sweet things to tutor for out there...
Edit: Besides maybe Panglacial Wurm, which seems a bit too cute, there aren't. ^^
How is a 0/1 that much worse than a 1/1. At least she provides more colours and you don't really want to block with your guys anyways, for the most part.
Seems like a quite nice little combo deck. ;D
Though I think I'd look into different 7/7s: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&power= =[7]&tough=+=[7]&format=+[%22Modern%22] (noice, the []s in the gatherer link break mtgsalvations url thing. xD)
Elderscale Wurm seems not as useful to me as Pelakka Wurm, at least against opponents with removal, since the +7 life stay with you and you get to draw.
Other sweet things include: Griselbrand, perhaps Cloudthresher, if you want something against fliers, Garruk's Horde as pseudo-carddraw, to name a few.
Considering you run that many mana dorks, why not add something like Collected Company, Summoning Pact, Cord of Calling, to turn them into actual cards?
Commune with the Gods might be also good, to dig for Wild Pair or the fatties directly.
And you don't need 20 mana dorks.
Either cut them back severely and add more utility or reduce your 21 lands by a couple and cut some.
If you are ok with going Bant (U/G/W) you could play Noble Hierarch and Sphinx's Revelation to be able to search for your combo and survive longer while doing so.
That's just some ideas from the top of my head though. ^^
As you said, it doesn't really stop offense and can also be easier removed than Batterskull, especially once you untap with it.
I'm also a bit conflicted about Olivia.
Yes, she is good. Potentially amazing even.
But that requires a relatively stable board state, as she isn't really a huge threat when played on t4.
As a 6-drop that is a 4/4 flier and kills one of their guys potentially, or prepares the steal on the next turn, she can be really good and also be save from bolt.
But a 3/3 for 4 doesn't do much.
In an even slower deck, like Grixis or Cruel Control or so, I think she is better, as she'll more often be able to hit on an relatively empty board and probably also has some mana to play with.
But here she feels a lot like a win more card. If she resolves and the opponent has no answer, she's amazing and can easily win the game on her own.
As a catch-up card that can also eventually win she's not really as reliable as our other guys, imo.
But I'm also not sure what to replace her with.
Another oddity in your list is the Consume the Meek in the sb, replacing Damnation.
I get the idea behind it (t4 Obliterator into t5 Consume and clear the field), but that seems rather utopian to me.
Where would I want Consume the Meek?
Against Elves, Delver, possibly Burn, Affinity, Podless Pod, possibly Jund/Junk...
In those cases a board wipe that gets rid of a bunch of small stuff is pretty useful.
In those cases a board wipe that comes as early as t5, and perhaps even later if you draw a tap land or none, is also WAY too late.
Elves have overrun you by then or just make a ton of mana and regenerate every thing, Delver can probably keep counters up or has Tasigur / Angler out on the field, Burn has you low enough to no longer need creatures and so on.
The point is: I'd MUCH rather completely and reliably wipe the board on t4 and t5 drop any of my bombs instead of trying to hang in t4 and wiping (some) of the board on 5 or have nothing much on 4, wipe on 5 and batterskull on 6.
Especially against Grixis Delver Damnation is very nice. They often can get a very early Delve guy out thanks to out discard (t2 Tasigur hype. ;_;) and where Drown in Sorrow solves the issue against most other decks as well as Consume does, and if I don't draw the things I need a Damnation can be an emergency Terminate.
In an ideal world we wouldn't need to worry much about this, but sadly not every hand has t1 to 3 discard that gets through and some removal and draws all the lands it needs and has an Obliterator out on 4, ready to take over.
And in the less than perfect cases, when the discard didn't get through or do enough, a universal "Oh *****!" button is more useful than a more expensive and more narrow solution.
But it might as well be that that's the control player in me speaking and I have it all wrong, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. ^^
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Waste Not decks are build quite differently and it is more of a card that wants to be build around than a universally good thing in any discard deck.
t2 Waste Not can be great, but later in the game...probably not. Once we are in topdeck wars Shrieking Affliction and Night's Whisper can be great! A free Bump in the Night every turn? Yes please!
More cards? Oh boy!
Waste Not?...uhm...it is a card, I guess...
In a more controlling, rack-esque deck, in conjuction with e.g. Shrieking Affliction Waste Not can be good later (Hold cards to avoid damage or play them to avoid Waste Not shenanigans?).
But here I don't think so, especially not as a replacement for our single and only, but still so awesome, draw and "alternative", passive win-con in stalemate situations. ^^
So that's the issue with late Waste Not, but what about early? It's surely good there, right?
Maybe.
The problem is that this deck isn't super fast nor runs permission spells, so discard is our way of controlling the opponent's threats and reducing them to a much safer level that we can easily deal with.
I often find that the best thing I can hope to do on turn 2 is Wrench their Mind.
Their is often not much going on on the board yet that warrants attention and getting an early 2 for 1 is super good.
Doing so turn 3 can sometimes already be too late.
Even on the play you might find that after your t2 Waste Not there sits a Young Pyromancer on the other side, and even though you have your Terminate, you're now 2 turn late on your discard.
Or risk the discard and have a bunch of tokens left over once you dealt with the Pyromance, while your opponent gave you some Black Mana to....not really do much with and perhaps a draw or a Zombie that they just bolt and move on...right into your face.
Waste Not in this deck seems not really great.
In a more Bridge and rack-oriented deck they may work, because you have other tools to deal with what your opponent might have done while you got your Waste Not going, but in this deck and the Obliterator build specifically I don't think it adds enough or the right stuff.
That sounds like a pretty interesting exercise indeed.
I've been playing with your list for a bit now, since I got around to finally get those damn Lilis, and it's even more fun to play than I anticipated.
Love the m,ix of discard and nasty big guys like the Obliterators. :3
Though I'm usually having a plan for most match-ups, writing it down and thinking about it some more can't hurt.
I also really like the look of your new sideboard.
But that might just be me being hyped about Slaughter Games, that card is just great fun to have. ;D
Disenchant e.g.
Dropping Honor seems fine when you run Sorin and Bitterblossom.
For such a deck Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter are more useful than Shadow of Doubt, due to their continuity.
Granted, Maralen can provide a fun softlock, though in that case an Isochron Scepter with Shadow of Doubt sounds like the best approach, as that would let us still tutor-draw and only lock out the opponent.
On the other hand, the lock needs to be tight, if they kept a Spell Snare or artifact removal or similar in hand, they get to tutor and sadness is likely to ensue. ^^
Partially because I wanted to brew a Dimir control deck, but also because I wanted to give my Rakdos control deck another shot.
My main idea for the latter was something along the lines of t2 Shadow of Doubt into t3 Fulminator Mage, to slow the opponent down and deny resources.
Most decks use either fetches, which make SoD basically a cantripping Sinkhole (Oh my...), or some other form of tutoring. From Bloom and Tron to even Elves or Soul Sister, a lot of decks could get hit by it.
And in match-ups that don't it cantrips g1 and offers 4 free sideboard slots right away as well.
I'm interested in other people's ideas as well though. Shadow of Doubt seems like a really sweet and fun card to play, so I'm definitely looking forward to trying some shenanigans with it.
Only waiting for Fulminator Mages to get cheaper on Modo, now that MM2 is out, then I'll get a set of those 2. :3
Oh, I nearly forgot:
I like your Ghost Quarter plan. Abusing it is really fun, I love to do it in my Mill deck, though sadly there Shadow of Doubt would be rather counterproductive when it comes to getting Archive Traps in.
If you want to go Esper or Jeskai with your deck though you could also use SoD with Path of Exile, though that would make it "only" a cantripping Unmake with a slightly different cost.
Play a couple on t2/3, sac them as Goblin Electromancer-cheapened rituals when you go off.
Too bad it's only a manabattery and doesn't actually generate and mana.
Well...and has as much of a target on his head as the afore mentioned goblin has.^^
For decks that can protect him and reliably make use of the ability it seems like a cute trick though to boost out a 5 drop on turn 3 e.g..
I've played some with that deck too, as it seems really interesting, but I'm not fully sold on it.
Besides it being hardly playable in Modo due to even bigger time issues than U/R Storm already has, it appears to be (even) more of a combo deck and doesn't seem to do much besides it's combo.
W/o 2x Manamorphose, 2x Noxious Revival AND an active Ascension there isn't even a combo going on. So it already needs more to get started and is incredibly dependant on PA, which makes it even less consistent and flexible.
But the combo itself doesn't really do much either.
So w/o 2 Ascensions or a Remand to play and counter itself to draw 1 every 2 cycles, you won't go anywhere with the infinite mana and storm counter you produce.
I have to say that it is quite nice to be able to combo off at instant speed, did that yesterday in response to an Abrupt Decay targeting my just played PA, until 10 minutes later I accidentally pressed my OK key once too often and let it resolve, but by then I would have only won one game (in this case the 2nd vs Junk) and had basically no time left.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong or getting terrible draws (never seen a Young Pyromancer at all post board... :/), but it seems like a way more restrictive, easier to break and harder to set up version of Storm, that can't really do jack without Ascension and the yard.
Am I missing a point here or was that just a super specific brew for that one tournament's meta game or so?
It also makes me really wish I had a paper playgroup, because there the deck is probably a lot easier and more fun to play than in Modo with the bajillion clicks you have to do. ^^
I think having 3 of them is pretty nice vs anything that tries to mess with us after boarding.
So, anything with white and/or black e.g.
Empty the Warrens gets around Leylines and Rest in Peace by not having to target and, while slower than a Grapeshot, needing a way lower stormcount to kill, so having no graveyard as well as discard is less of an issue.
Imo it's an a bit slower but a lot more easy to get off win-con than Grapeshot and in matches where you want to board them in you'll also often want them early on.
A hand with Empty and a couple rituals to "go off" on turn two or three can be pretty hard to deal with when there are suddenly ~8 goblins on the board and it costs barely any resources.
If only they had haste... ^^