Why are 4 mana sorcery speed board wipes being discussed in this thread?
Because Collected Company is a real card and we need more answers. Also, wraths are VERY good versus a lot of the decks right now. Taking out Geist for some wraths really help our heavy creature match ups. Geist is a 2/2 and can't attack through heavy boards, but the plan of winning through Resto Angels, Batterskull, and Snapcasters after wiping the board is a lot easier versus decks like: Collected Company, Zoo, Fish, Robots, and it is OK against Wilt Leaf Abzan.
I think Anger of the Gods is better against the Anafenza's Company decks that play Kitchen Finks, Voice of Resurgence, Eternal Witness, Murderous Redcap etc. And it doesn't kill your Restoration Angels, Thundermaw Hellkite, Batterskull (or Dragonlord Ojutai).
Sure it's better against Abzan Company, but then that's 2 sideboard slots that could be supreme verdict, that you can't play vs merfolk, Big Zoo, or Grixis Delver, or even 4/5 creature Abzan decks.
Why are 4 mana sorcery speed board wipes being discussed in this thread?
Because Collected Company is a real card and we need more answers. Also, wraths are VERY good versus a lot of the decks right now. Taking out Geist for some wraths really help our heavy creature match ups. Geist is a 2/2 and can't attack through heavy boards, but the plan of winning through Resto Angels, Batterskull, and Snapcasters after wiping the board is a lot easier versus decks like: Collected Company, Zoo, Fish, Robots, and it is OK against Wilt Leaf Abzan.
I only have Supreme Verdict, I don't own Wrath of God. I would do a 1 and 1 split. The no regen is also good vs Thrun and sometimes affinity. But the no counter is good vs Delver decks as well as random sultai good stuff decks. I don't think they do, but if any deck is randomly packing counter spells in the board (like affinity) Supreme Verdict is good there.
I've had 2 Supreme Verdict in my sideboard for a while now. They just got a lot better with all this collected company shenanigans. Also i play 4 Remand 2 Cryptic Command which are a little slow at countering their elves and such, so usually are fired off at Co-Co.
I actually really like this. I think it's very strong. Vendy Clique hasn't really been performing too well recently, and Azorious Charm shows promise. I might try something like this out at my FNM. The only things I would change are...
I like Batterskull over the second SB Dragon because it's still good versus Abzan, but also a great late game drop versus decks like Grixis Delver and Burn.
Cryptic Command is better than the Forked Bolt and Valorous Stance because it's just way more versatile. Cryptic Command is VERY good versus Abzan, as well as any matchup that is grindy. It's really good versus any deck once you get to 4 mana. I don't really like Valorous Stance because you don't run any Vendy Cliques so it only really protects Resto Angel... It does kill Tarmogoyfs and the like but Cryptic can just bounce or tap or counter goyf.
Would you say that Valorous Stance is too narrow for the meta? It hits every important threat against Abzan and in all matchups can make Geist indestructible so that his angel can get through. It is weak against Burn but still decent against Delver decks (Tasigur + Gurmag Angler).
Forked Bolt is also particularly good against Abzan for lingering souls tokens and it is very good against Delver.
I think Valorous Stance is too narrow for maindeck. With 4 path 2 cyptic 2 azorious charm 4 remand, cards like tasigur and goyf aren't really huge issues. And forked bolt is not really good vs Abzan. The only card it answers is Lingering Souls, but it only half answers that anyway.
I'm no expert on UWr or even modern in general but I think that Azorius Charm could be huge in this deck. The new meta of Siege Rhino/Tasigur/Gurmag with the ever-present Tarmogoyf make burn spells considerably worse and 4 Path to Exiles simply isn't enough to contain these threats. Azorius Charm effectively bounces their threat and causes them to skip a draw, netting impressive card advantage. It can also be used to gain life in a race or cantrip to find lands. Bouncing cards that were cast off of delve also generates value. Charm can get rid of Geist blockers while his Angel swings in. It acts more and more like a timewalk in formats that aren't full of hastey threats. With regards to bouncing a Siege Rhino that has blocked your Geist, bouncing Rhino leaves you down 3 life (from Rhino's ETB) and them down 1 (4 from angel -3 gained). Not bouncing the Rhino leaves you down 4 (from Rhino's attack) and them down 0.
Here is an example maindeck list, tuned towards a more favorable match against Junk.
I actually really like this. I think it's very strong. Vendy Clique hasn't really been performing too well recently, and Azorious Charm shows promise. I might try something like this out at my FNM. The only things I would change are...
I like Batterskull over the second SB Dragon because it's still good versus Abzan, but also a great late game drop versus decks like Grixis Delver and Burn.
Cryptic Command is better than the Forked Bolt and Valorous Stance because it's just way more versatile. Cryptic Command is VERY good versus Abzan, as well as any matchup that is grindy. It's really good versus any deck once you get to 4 mana. I don't really like Valorous Stance because you don't run any Vendy Cliques so it only really protects Resto Angel... It does kill Tarmogoyfs and the like but Cryptic can just bounce or tap or counter goyf.
I totally understand what Great Nate is saying re. Anticipate and card selection in Combo decks vs. Geist decks. All the same though - missing land drops and/or getting stuck on 2 mana for a couple of turns is absolute death for this deck. Im getting to the point were keeping a hand with 1 spell is almost a viable keep (although I'll usually mull it). I've been testing 2x Anticipate 25 lands and it seems better but without a lot more testing Im still not sure. Is going to 26 lands something people have tried? Maybe 26 lands and 2x Anticipate - I dunno?!
For people that have played this deck a lot longer than me - is this mana screw really a problem or have just had a lot of variance - perhaps i'm mulling wrong? What rough % of games do you lose due to dying to your own draws/mana screw?
All in all at this stage it's a massive turn-off for playing the deck - I want to lose by being outplayed not because my stupid ass deck fugs me in the backside..
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I agree, losing to your own deck is a real pain, but UWR Midrange is one of the decks in modern less likely to lose to itself. We run 25 lands, and with 4 Remands it's pretty unlikely we get stuck on 2 lands. Whereas if you play Burn, Infect, Affinity, Amulet Bloom, or even UR Twin, theres a good chance you just lose the game because you draw the wrong half of your deck, not enough burn, no ramp with Amulet Bloom, or never find a Splinter Twin. Decks like UWR Geist and Abzan are much less likely to just durdle out of the game due to their own decklist. If you afraid of the occasional mana screw/flood, then just play chess.
I found myself losing a lot of grindy matchups. Grixis Delver could even grind harder than me. So, I added 1 Sphinx's Revelation, 1 Electrolyze, 2 Cryptic Command. This build also allows me to bring in Supreme Verdict against Tarmogoyf and friends .deck. I can just take out geist, insert Verdict and Stormbreath Drag and I can out grind just about any green base deck like jund abzan or whatever. Putting in these high end spells doesn't hurt the aggro matchups as much as you would think. Previously, I would lose to aggro because I stabalize, but don't have many spells that really seal the deal, then die to a creature or burn spell off the top. Cryptic Command really closes out most chances of winning for my opponent once I stabalize. Not to mention topdecking a Sphinx's Rev after the dust settles REALLY stops most decks in their tracks. We have some of the best early reaction spells in Modern, they allow us to live until turn 6 against almost any deck, allowing time for Crytics, Dragons, and Revelation to take over. You get all of this while still accidentally winning off T3 Geist with backup.
I actually ran 24 lands for a long time. This was before I got my Colonnades. I played 2 Scry Lands, 1 Faerie Conclave, then the rest of the mana base was normal. It held together with 24 lands, but I still think 25 is the right answer. I play stormbreath dragon and Batterskull, so I really like hitting 5 lands on time. Plus you aren't really punished for flood too badly. Celestial Colonade + Spell is good. And electrolyze and being able to play whatever card you draw is helpful.
So it's still a bad matchup. Stony silence doesnt do much here in my opinion. Most of the time they go T1 Land + egg and then they have stirrings and scrying. It only helps against o-stone
The GR Tron matchup is around 50/50 for UWR Geist I think. Stony Silence will often just stop them dead. They generally play around 19 activating artifacts and will often rely on them to get colored mana by cracking their eggs. Eggs can't be cracked with Stony Silence in play. If you're on the play, and they go turn one Urzaland and egg, and you follow up with Stony Silence, they'll have many dead cards and a fairly low chance of getting tron online anytime soon.
Cards that will help against Tron:
-Aven Mindcensor to prevent, at the very least limit them from searching their library
-Ghost Quarter, because Tectonic Edge's 4-land requirement often means it comes in too late against Tron
-Molten Rain, because you need to slow them down, and Tron often times use their own Ghost Quarter on one of their own Trolands if you play a Sowing Salt on a Tron land. Also, Sowing Salt comes a turn later, which is why Molten Rain coming a turn earlier is a pretty big deal.
-Vendilion Clique, not great against Tron but its flash allows it to dodge a sweeper and swing the next turn. Also, if you're lucky it can snipe a Tron land or a Karn.
To clarify, Vedilion Clique can only grab non land cards. Therefor, It won't be taking any Tron lands from them.
Because Collected Company is a real card and we need more answers. Also, wraths are VERY good versus a lot of the decks right now. Taking out Geist for some wraths really help our heavy creature match ups. Geist is a 2/2 and can't attack through heavy boards, but the plan of winning through Resto Angels, Batterskull, and Snapcasters after wiping the board is a lot easier versus decks like: Collected Company, Zoo, Fish, Robots, and it is OK against Wilt Leaf Abzan.
That's actually just horribad. No. I would play howling mine before that.
I think Valorous Stance is too narrow for maindeck. With 4 path 2 cyptic 2 azorious charm 4 remand, cards like tasigur and goyf aren't really huge issues. And forked bolt is not really good vs Abzan. The only card it answers is Lingering Souls, but it only half answers that anyway.
I actually really like this. I think it's very strong. Vendy Clique hasn't really been performing too well recently, and Azorious Charm shows promise. I might try something like this out at my FNM. The only things I would change are...
-1 Stormbreath Dragon
-1 Forked Bolt
-1 Valorous Stance
+1 Batterskull
+2 Cryptic Command
I like Batterskull over the second SB Dragon because it's still good versus Abzan, but also a great late game drop versus decks like Grixis Delver and Burn.
Cryptic Command is better than the Forked Bolt and Valorous Stance because it's just way more versatile. Cryptic Command is VERY good versus Abzan, as well as any matchup that is grindy. It's really good versus any deck once you get to 4 mana. I don't really like Valorous Stance because you don't run any Vendy Cliques so it only really protects Resto Angel... It does kill Tarmogoyfs and the like but Cryptic can just bounce or tap or counter goyf.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84752
3 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Vendilion Clique
Lands (25)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Batterskull
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Forked Bolt
I agree, losing to your own deck is a real pain, but UWR Midrange is one of the decks in modern less likely to lose to itself. We run 25 lands, and with 4 Remands it's pretty unlikely we get stuck on 2 lands. Whereas if you play Burn, Infect, Affinity, Amulet Bloom, or even UR Twin, theres a good chance you just lose the game because you draw the wrong half of your deck, not enough burn, no ramp with Amulet Bloom, or never find a Splinter Twin. Decks like UWR Geist and Abzan are much less likely to just durdle out of the game due to their own decklist. If you afraid of the occasional mana screw/flood, then just play chess.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Restoration Angel
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Batterskull
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Electrolyze
1 Logic Knot
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Shatterstorm
2 Wear//Tear
2 Flashfreeze
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Spellskite
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Stormbreath Dragon
I found myself losing a lot of grindy matchups. Grixis Delver could even grind harder than me. So, I added 1 Sphinx's Revelation, 1 Electrolyze, 2 Cryptic Command. This build also allows me to bring in Supreme Verdict against Tarmogoyf and friends .deck. I can just take out geist, insert Verdict and Stormbreath Drag and I can out grind just about any green base deck like jund abzan or whatever. Putting in these high end spells doesn't hurt the aggro matchups as much as you would think. Previously, I would lose to aggro because I stabalize, but don't have many spells that really seal the deal, then die to a creature or burn spell off the top. Cryptic Command really closes out most chances of winning for my opponent once I stabalize. Not to mention topdecking a Sphinx's Rev after the dust settles REALLY stops most decks in their tracks. We have some of the best early reaction spells in Modern, they allow us to live until turn 6 against almost any deck, allowing time for Crytics, Dragons, and Revelation to take over. You get all of this while still accidentally winning off T3 Geist with backup.
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel
Spells
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
3 Celestial Colonade
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Shatterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flash Freeze
3 Kor Firewalker
1 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Wear // Tear
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Batterskull
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Counterflux
To clarify, Vedilion Clique can only grab non land cards. Therefor, It won't be taking any Tron lands from them.