Ok, suppose they surgical your architect or put a stony silence. What's next?
So we're in g2/g3 and I haven't brought in any sideboard cards myself?
Cryptic Command answers any permanent effect including stony silence.
Surgical extraction on architect (which involves having it discarded from hand as I don't normally play it unless I'm going off or making a value ballista anyways) means I only have a bunch 2/1's, 1/1's, 0/5 walls, small ballista's on the field.
Seems pretty dire, but hey if we're talking about decks that are disrupting my hand (ie. bgx/shadow), I think it would be grim for both versions of the deck so I don't really see your point. It's almost as if you believe the chief engineer, etherium sculptor, 1/1 fliers deck doesn't rely on grand architect to go off. Those decks run a bunch of crewable vehicles, equipment slots, everything that gets exponentially worse in the face of creature removal/discard.
Grand architect is 100% the pay off card for both decks, so I'm not really seeing your whole point unless it's "gg surgical extract architect. Grand architect sucks, game over."
In that case, why are you even here?
Instead of arbitrarily voicing out haphazard scenarios, how about you propose a worthy build and I'll list out the comparative pros and cons between your list and mine?
Looking forward to your response.
Well, but i did. You can check my list several posts before. I even run pili-pala myself, and no chief engineers =)
Considering realism of my examples - i deliberately chose examples where combo just doesn't work. But in reality, they don't have to permanently shut down the combo - they could just kill/discard him (or even pili-pala) and execute their gameplan before you could find another.
An example of a good deck would be Death shadow - these decks are surely win a lot of their matches via their namesake card, but they don't fold on the spot if they lose it.
Yeah I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Death Shadow's deck is the premier meta deck at the moment over Grand Architect. I mean after all, that's why we're here in the Deck Creation subforum and not in Tier 1.
As for your deck, I feel it is trying too hard to do many little things that you may just end up drawing some disjointed part of your deck with no cohesion.
Along the same lines of logic as yours, it is also very susceptible to stony silence and uh surgical extraction
Sword/Thopter combo takes up too many slots and doesn't even guarantee a win, feels bad imo. Gets worse when you're playing random one of artifacts to fuel whir to get part of the combo or pili-pala?
Anyways, I don't think it's really constructive just saying things like "nah I've tried this deck, it doesn't work, loses to death's shadow and gets hosed in X scenario".
I don't understand why you are seeing all my comments in such an aggressive light.
Death's shadow was only an example on how a deck can have plan B and plan C. No one was talking power level here.
As for my decklist - yes, it kinda sucks against stony, but i have a sideboard plan for it (and, well, every deck has its weakness) It is completely surgical-proof though, as i don't rely on one combo.
Disjointed part? Such as? I guess Fatal push can be dead in some matchups, and maybe drawing foundry in multiples can be bad, but that's it. In my opinion, playing trinket mage without playing his silver bullet package is not a good deckbuilding.
Thopter-sword does not guarantee a win? Well, nothing is. But it just wrecks a lot of decks - for example burn, death's shadow, and is simply good in attrition matchups. Compared to this, pili-pala combo is faster, can beat infinite life, but requires a third piece(!) and easily disrupted, so i rely on in against non-interactive decks. And there is third plan in flyers beatdown, which actually gives me at least a third of my wins. My deck is not all-in combo and i can tune it after sideboard. I even consider Jund(not Abzan) a good matchup in general. Bad matchups for me are Tron and stony silence, but i'm working on these too.
I don't view this as an aggressive at all. Just baseless, sorry if you feel that way.
Yeah many decks have multiple plans, but they usually play into each other. This is one of the reasons I believe my build is so resilient, chord feeds into combo pieces as well ewit recursions. It can also search out trinket mage for sb plans and ballista finisher. Vial fits into the ewit/cryptic command plan. Cryptic plan fits into wall of roots stall, which fits into the whole plan B. The entire deck is so synergistic where I just don't see that in yours.
Many combos once assembled guarantee wins: ad nauseum, storm, scapeshift, tooth and nail, my build. Thopter/sword doesn't unfortunately.
Please don't feel that what I say is aggressive as I'm simply stating that so far your opinions haven't come with much logical consistency.
By big stuff you mean ballista? Usually, which only really works with architect out (unless you're talking about some obscure number of wurmcoil engines and myr superions). Same thing with this deck, you can go down for some value ballista.
Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.
Ok, suppose they surgical your architect or put a stony silence. What's next?
So we're in g2/g3 and I haven't brought in any sideboard cards myself?
Cryptic Command answers any permanent effect including stony silence.
Surgical extraction on architect (which involves having it discarded from hand as I don't normally play it unless I'm going off or making a value ballista anyways) means I only have a bunch 2/1's, 1/1's, 0/5 walls, small ballista's on the field.
Seems pretty dire, but hey if we're talking about decks that are disrupting my hand (ie. bgx/shadow), I think it would be grim for both versions of the deck so I don't really see your point. It's almost as if you believe the chief engineer, etherium sculptor, 1/1 fliers deck doesn't rely on grand architect to go off. Those decks run a bunch of crewable vehicles, equipment slots, everything that gets exponentially worse in the face of creature removal/discard.
Grand architect is 100% the pay off card for both decks, so I'm not really seeing your whole point unless it's "gg surgical extract architect. Grand architect sucks, game over."
In that case, why are you even here?
Instead of arbitrarily voicing out haphazard scenarios, how about you propose a worthy build and I'll list out the comparative pros and cons between your list and mine?
Looking forward to your response.
Well, but i did. You can check my list several posts before. I even run pili-pala myself, and no chief engineers =)
Considering realism of my examples - i deliberately chose examples where combo just doesn't work. But in reality, they don't have to permanently shut down the combo - they could just kill/discard him (or even pili-pala) and execute their gameplan before you could find another.
An example of a good deck would be Death shadow - these decks are surely win a lot of their matches via their namesake card, but they don't fold on the spot if they lose it.
Yeah I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Death Shadow's deck is the premier meta deck at the moment over Grand Architect. I mean after all, that's why we're here in the Deck Creation subforum and not in Tier 1.
As for your deck, I feel it is trying too hard to do many little things that you may just end up drawing some disjointed part of your deck with no cohesion.
Along the same lines of logic as yours, it is also very susceptible to stony silence and uh surgical extraction
Sword/Thopter combo takes up too many slots and doesn't even guarantee a win, feels bad imo. Gets worse when you're playing random one of artifacts to fuel whir to get part of the combo or pili-pala?
Anyways, I don't think it's really constructive just saying things like "nah I've tried this deck, it doesn't work, loses to death's shadow and gets hosed in X scenario". Cause then we'd just spend the rest of the time picking apart the flaws in each other's decks without providing meaningful, insightful feedback.
I run the exact same 60 as you and agree Peer through Depths just adds the extra layer of insurance when you're going off or digging for that value warrens.
You'll notice, I completely forego bounce effects and usually heavily side out my gifts package and turn into a go wide empty the warrens deck.
The reasoning is because:
1) If opponent has RIP, spellbomb, relic in play, you already need to find your bounce spell and are on the backfoot.
2) If you opponent doesn't and you have the bounce spell, it's usually quite useless.
3) Multiple hate cards in play such as grafdigger's, relic, RIP, leyline make it almost impossible to find multiple answers to.
4) By not playing any graveyard strategies, you essentially blank out any hate opponents bring (and people usually mull till they draw hate in their opening).
5) Ceremonious Rejection is useful vs ratchet bomb and EE that come down AFTER a warrens (as well as being stellar vs tron/eldrazi/affinity). Shattering spree is useful vs them BEFORE a warrens.
Having said all that, I still believe the burn matchup is rough and currently have to bring
IN:
3x Pyroclasm
3x Blood Moon
3x Swan Song
1x Empty the Warrens
OUT:
4x Goblin Electromancer
3x Gifts Ungiven
2x Remand
1x Past in Flames
By big stuff you mean ballista? Usually, which only really works with architect out (unless you're talking about some obscure number of wurmcoil engines and myr superions). Same thing with this deck, you can go down for some value ballista.
Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.
Ok, suppose they surgical your architect or put a stony silence. What's next?
So we're in g2/g3 and I haven't brought in any sideboard cards myself?
Cryptic Command answers any permanent effect including stony silence.
Surgical extraction on architect (which involves having it discarded from hand as I don't normally play it unless I'm going off or making a value ballista anyways) means I only have a bunch 2/1's, 1/1's, 0/5 walls, small ballista's on the field.
Seems pretty dire, but hey if we're talking about decks that are disrupting my hand (ie. bgx/shadow), I think it would be grim for both versions of the deck so I don't really see your point. It's almost as if you believe the chief engineer, etherium sculptor, 1/1 fliers deck doesn't rely on grand architect to go off. Those decks run a bunch of crewable vehicles, equipment slots, everything that gets exponentially worse in the face of creature removal/discard.
Grand architect is 100% the pay off card for both decks, so I'm not really seeing your whole point unless it's "gg surgical extract architect. Grand architect sucks, game over."
In that case, why are you even here?
Instead of arbitrarily voicing out haphazard scenarios, how about you propose a worthy build and I'll list out the comparative pros and cons between your list and mine?
By big stuff you mean ballista? Usually, which only really works with architect out (unless you're talking about some obscure number of wurmcoil engines and myr superions). Same thing with this deck, you can go down for some value ballista.
Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.
I tried something like this, problem is when you don't draw architect your deck is full of bad cards. And even when you do - Architect is extremely fragile. You must at least have some beatdown backup plan - but your creatures are not really suited for this.
I actually believe the other variants are more reliant on architect, without it you have a bunch of etherium sculptors, chief engineers, etc.
With this build, not only are you able to chord quickly and efficiently for architect, you can also play the ewit/command gameplan.
It aims to control with cryptic ewit recursion (eternal command), while flooding the board with walls/oracles/skites. It then threatens combo with chord.
Can win T3 without disruption and T4 through disruption, eg.
T1: Vial
T2: Vial on 1, Wall of Roots/Coiling Oracle -> Land
T3: Many Options: Vial on 2, Grand Architect -> Skite/Pili Pala, Hold up Cryptic, EOT Chord for 2 for Pili Pala/Skite
T4: Win
Once you hit infinite mana, following cards help you win:
Ballista - infinite dmg
Trinket Mage - Ballista
Chord - Trinket mage - Ballista
Ewit - Bring back cryptic for infinite draw loop. as well as any of the above.
Sideboard is just a toolbox since Chord can grab you Trinket Mage can grab you anything.
Here's the list I've been testing at FNM. I have chosen to incorporate Koth as he is a great wincon in the mono-R chalice/bridge/moon version. However, in order to slot him in, I had to remove all double white costing cards (which unfortunately means no wrath).
The key idea is that I want more early pressuring win-cons down. I'm still at a loss for what to do with 5 -6 slots, and I've allocated them to Desperate Ritual and Wall of Omens. I would love to find a great turn two play that pressures the opponent (was considering veteran motorist + heart of kiran but then that turns on all their creature removal :() Having said that, Veteran Motorist Scry 2 is already a pretty good etb).
Overall, I feel this version of the deck can put the pressure on earlier and more consistently. Bad trade-offs are that having no wraths means no way of answering Bant Eldrazi, Naya Zoo, Big Midrange decks. Still working on that.
For SB choices, I feel that boil (as they will be digging for basic islands is a good answer for any control matchup. I also feel that bridge belongs in SB, as it's really only there for mid-range / eldrazi decks / naya zoo. Anger should cover the rest. Boros Charm is there for the artifact/enchantment hate opponents will bring in G2/G3.
I feel like Inferno Titan belongs somewhere in the 75...
Gigadrowse: Works well in conjunction with Remand to stall time for Thing in the Ice to fire off. Also allows protection of combo from non-removal disruption (eg. counterspells, vines to vastwood. They will still be able to path/abrupt decay/terminate the exarch at EOT but at least you force the removal on that instead of kiki or titi.
Thing in the Ice: Serves as our alternative win-con in place of pestermite/snapcaster bashing while serving as one-sided evacuation.
Simian Spirit Guide: Currently testing for explosive T1 starts (t1 ssg titi, t2 visions/bolt/giga, t3 visions/bolt/giga remand flip). Also allows for a T4 and even T3 combo.
Blood Moon: With SSG, allows for T2 Blood Moon which can just win games on its own.
Chalice of the Void: With SSG, allows T1 shutdown of the aggro pillars: affinity, burn, infect.
Lack of utility lands: Atm, not feeling as though I want to have lands that come into play tapped (eg. Wandering Fumarole) and desolate lighthouse not providing U hurts all too much. I may be wrong on this.
More to come after more testing.
Feedback would be great. It might not be in the right shell/colour swapping/missing notable UR high impact cards/trying to do too much etc or you just think its trash and want to tell me why
Neither, it will be a 4/0. Switching power and toughness is the last thing done in the layer system(its layer 7E). Dampening Pulse is a P/T changing effect that doesn't set so its 7C. So you apply Dampening Pulse making the Fumarole a 0/4 then you swap P/T and its a 4/0. which will die to state based effects when they're next checked.
Doesn't that mean when state based effects are checked, that it will go from 4/0 to 3/0 due to the enchantment and die? If so, the OP is correct in one of the outcomes as it is a 3/0 when state based effects are checked.
Well that got a bit personal. I didn't say you don't know what you're doing.
I was saying I simply disagree with you and I explained why.
I don't see an issue with playing 12 x 3 drops and 4 dorks. It's not like I desperately want to play a 3 drop on turn 2 and like I said the deck plays grind really well so more dorks doesn't really help. It's actually a reason many of the Junk decks aren't playing birds now cause there isn't such a need to accelerate anymore. Here's a link on recent abzan decks: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-abzan#online
I mean this is your thread that you made and you're asking whether or not Lily can be played in a modern midrange value deck. My deck is a modern midrange value deck and I'm giving you the reasons to why Lily is so successful for me. The only results I have are FNM and I came first again tonight; played Affinity, Twin, Junk and Elves. My LGS meta has all the tier 1/tier 2 decks and I've been jamming games on a daily basis.
I've had numerous people working together with me on this deck over the last 6 months so it's not just some random idea I'm spewing out at you hoping you're going to try it out. For me, the exposure for Lily will have to come from my own performance, and I actually hope to top 8 GP Modern Melbourne with this deck next March to do so - this deck has been my sole project with this one goal.
I don't normally respond to MTGS threads anymore cause discussion seems really stifled by ego's. But you made this thread seeking potential in Lily so I thought I'd shed some light.You even said "I have been looking for a thread on a abzan company list that focuses on value rather than combo". That is EXACTLY what I wanted 6 months ago and here I am now 6 months later with what I believe to be an amazing deck. There's no wall of roots, no 4x anafenza's, no reveillark, no varolz, no cartel aristocrats or any other cute combo crap in my deck. My combo package is quite minimal (I actually started with 1 seer, 1 ana, 1 melira, 4 finks, 3 chord during my early iterations) and the rest is filled for the value gameplan.
Anyways, I know it's easy to dismiss ideas that are weird or you can't fully comprehend but at the very least respect/appreciate others who have gone to lengths to answer the question you so easily ask (your very first post) - "Is there some type of midrange deck that our dear lady can fit into?"
Been playing this list for over 4 months now and the Lili/Fulm package is such a great asset and improves almost all matchups (minus elves and merfolk). It changes the tron match up from 20-80 to 60-40 singlehandedly. Lily + Ewit is also broken for the value game, which the deck often finds itself in against Jund/Junk/Grixis games.
That's funny timing b/c I just revived the other Liliana, heretical healer thread. On topic, I have found her to be abysmal in Abzan company due to her awkward mana cost in a deck that needs to cast kitchen finks.
Yeah I completely disagree unless you're running 4 Anafenza's or something. It's a BGw deck that doesn't need WW really at all let alone early on so GG and BB are the main requirements. I have never found Anafenza's bolster to be relevant in any matchup and it really is just a win-more mechanic. I prefer Melira all the time due to her easy cost and relevancy in a meta where Infect + Affinity are tier 1.
My opinion: I don't like Linvala in any of the 75. I feel like she's a remnant of the pod toolbox days.
No other deck that runs white plays her and I don't know why we should. I can definitely appreciate her applications but that goes for every other card in mtg. Why was she played in pod before? Maybe she shored up a weakness of pod or served as a reliable toolbox.
Without pod + the inclusion of company, I feel her and reveillark/thune should step back.
I don't view this as an aggressive at all. Just baseless, sorry if you feel that way.
Yeah many decks have multiple plans, but they usually play into each other. This is one of the reasons I believe my build is so resilient, chord feeds into combo pieces as well ewit recursions. It can also search out trinket mage for sb plans and ballista finisher. Vial fits into the ewit/cryptic command plan. Cryptic plan fits into wall of roots stall, which fits into the whole plan B. The entire deck is so synergistic where I just don't see that in yours.
Many combos once assembled guarantee wins: ad nauseum, storm, scapeshift, tooth and nail, my build. Thopter/sword doesn't unfortunately.
Please don't feel that what I say is aggressive as I'm simply stating that so far your opinions haven't come with much logical consistency.
Yeah I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Death Shadow's deck is the premier meta deck at the moment over Grand Architect. I mean after all, that's why we're here in the Deck Creation subforum and not in Tier 1.
As for your deck, I feel it is trying too hard to do many little things that you may just end up drawing some disjointed part of your deck with no cohesion.
Along the same lines of logic as yours, it is also very susceptible to stony silence and uh surgical extraction
Sword/Thopter combo takes up too many slots and doesn't even guarantee a win, feels bad imo. Gets worse when you're playing random one of artifacts to fuel whir to get part of the combo or pili-pala?
Anyways, I don't think it's really constructive just saying things like "nah I've tried this deck, it doesn't work, loses to death's shadow and gets hosed in X scenario". Cause then we'd just spend the rest of the time picking apart the flaws in each other's decks without providing meaningful, insightful feedback.
That's approximately 12-16 cards. It's not the best but I believe it's better than what I'm boarding out
My SB is as follows:
You'll notice, I completely forego bounce effects and usually heavily side out my gifts package and turn into a go wide empty the warrens deck.
The reasoning is because:
1) If opponent has RIP, spellbomb, relic in play, you already need to find your bounce spell and are on the backfoot.
2) If you opponent doesn't and you have the bounce spell, it's usually quite useless.
3) Multiple hate cards in play such as grafdigger's, relic, RIP, leyline make it almost impossible to find multiple answers to.
4) By not playing any graveyard strategies, you essentially blank out any hate opponents bring (and people usually mull till they draw hate in their opening).
5) Ceremonious Rejection is useful vs ratchet bomb and EE that come down AFTER a warrens (as well as being stellar vs tron/eldrazi/affinity). Shattering spree is useful vs them BEFORE a warrens.
Having said all that, I still believe the burn matchup is rough and currently have to bring
IN:
3x Pyroclasm
3x Blood Moon
3x Swan Song
1x Empty the Warrens
OUT:
4x Goblin Electromancer
3x Gifts Ungiven
2x Remand
1x Past in Flames
So we're in g2/g3 and I haven't brought in any sideboard cards myself?
Cryptic Command answers any permanent effect including stony silence.
Surgical extraction on architect (which involves having it discarded from hand as I don't normally play it unless I'm going off or making a value ballista anyways) means I only have a bunch 2/1's, 1/1's, 0/5 walls, small ballista's on the field.
Seems pretty dire, but hey if we're talking about decks that are disrupting my hand (ie. bgx/shadow), I think it would be grim for both versions of the deck so I don't really see your point. It's almost as if you believe the chief engineer, etherium sculptor, 1/1 fliers deck doesn't rely on grand architect to go off. Those decks run a bunch of crewable vehicles, equipment slots, everything that gets exponentially worse in the face of creature removal/discard.
Grand architect is 100% the pay off card for both decks, so I'm not really seeing your whole point unless it's "gg surgical extract architect. Grand architect sucks, game over."
In that case, why are you even here?
Instead of arbitrarily voicing out haphazard scenarios, how about you propose a worthy build and I'll list out the comparative pros and cons between your list and mine?
Looking forward to your response.
Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.
I actually believe the other variants are more reliant on architect, without it you have a bunch of etherium sculptors, chief engineers, etc.
With this build, not only are you able to chord quickly and efficiently for architect, you can also play the ewit/command gameplan.
4x Coiling Oracle
3x Eternal Witness
4x Grand Architect
2x Pili-Pala
2x Spellskite
2x Trinket Mage
3x Walking Ballista
4x Wall of Roots
4x Aether Vial
4x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Grove
2x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
2x Hinterland Harbor
5x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Cryptic Command
4x Serum Visions
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Wurmcoil Engine
It aims to control with cryptic ewit recursion (eternal command), while flooding the board with walls/oracles/skites. It then threatens combo with chord.
Can win T3 without disruption and T4 through disruption, eg.
T1: Vial
T2: Vial on 1, Wall of Roots/Coiling Oracle -> Land
T3: Many Options: Vial on 2, Grand Architect -> Skite/Pili Pala, Hold up Cryptic, EOT Chord for 2 for Pili Pala/Skite
T4: Win
Once you hit infinite mana, following cards help you win:
Ballista - infinite dmg
Trinket Mage - Ballista
Chord - Trinket mage - Ballista
Ewit - Bring back cryptic for infinite draw loop. as well as any of the above.
Sideboard is just a toolbox since Chord can grab you Trinket Mage can grab you anything.
4x Arid Mesa
2x Gemstone Caverns
4x Marsh Flats
5x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
Instant (7)
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Lightning Helix
1x Dismember
Enchantment (8)
1x Banishing Light
4x Blood Moon
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Koth of the Hammer
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Sorcery (3)
3x Anger of the Gods
Artifact (4)
4x Chalice of the Void
Creature (8)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Wall of Omens
2x Boil
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Rest in Peace
2x Boros Charm
3x Stony Silence
3x Ensnaring Bridge
Here's the list I've been testing at FNM. I have chosen to incorporate Koth as he is a great wincon in the mono-R chalice/bridge/moon version. However, in order to slot him in, I had to remove all double white costing cards (which unfortunately means no wrath).
The key idea is that I want more early pressuring win-cons down. I'm still at a loss for what to do with 5 -6 slots, and I've allocated them to Desperate Ritual and Wall of Omens. I would love to find a great turn two play that pressures the opponent (was considering veteran motorist + heart of kiran but then that turns on all their creature removal :() Having said that, Veteran Motorist Scry 2 is already a pretty good etb).
Overall, I feel this version of the deck can put the pressure on earlier and more consistently. Bad trade-offs are that having no wraths means no way of answering Bant Eldrazi, Naya Zoo, Big Midrange decks. Still working on that.
For SB choices, I feel that boil (as they will be digging for basic islands is a good answer for any control matchup. I also feel that bridge belongs in SB, as it's really only there for mid-range / eldrazi decks / naya zoo. Anger should cover the rest. Boros Charm is there for the artifact/enchantment hate opponents will bring in G2/G3.
I feel like Inferno Titan belongs somewhere in the 75...
The List:
6 Islands
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creature (17)
3 Deceiver Exarch
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellskite
4 Thing in the Ice
2 Blood Moon
Instant (16)
3 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
4 Gigadrowse
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
Sorcery (4)
4 Serum Visions
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
1 Flashfreeze
1 Spell Snare
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Card Choices:
Gigadrowse: Works well in conjunction with Remand to stall time for Thing in the Ice to fire off. Also allows protection of combo from non-removal disruption (eg. counterspells, vines to vastwood. They will still be able to path/abrupt decay/terminate the exarch at EOT but at least you force the removal on that instead of kiki or titi.
Thing in the Ice: Serves as our alternative win-con in place of pestermite/snapcaster bashing while serving as one-sided evacuation.
Simian Spirit Guide: Currently testing for explosive T1 starts (t1 ssg titi, t2 visions/bolt/giga, t3 visions/bolt/giga remand flip). Also allows for a T4 and even T3 combo.
Blood Moon: With SSG, allows for T2 Blood Moon which can just win games on its own.
Chalice of the Void: With SSG, allows T1 shutdown of the aggro pillars: affinity, burn, infect.
Lack of utility lands: Atm, not feeling as though I want to have lands that come into play tapped (eg. Wandering Fumarole) and desolate lighthouse not providing U hurts all too much. I may be wrong on this.
More to come after more testing.
Feedback would be great. It might not be in the right shell/colour swapping/missing notable UR high impact cards/trying to do too much etc or you just think its trash and want to tell me why
Doesn't that mean when state based effects are checked, that it will go from 4/0 to 3/0 due to the enchantment and die? If so, the OP is correct in one of the outcomes as it is a 3/0 when state based effects are checked.
I was saying I simply disagree with you and I explained why.
I don't see an issue with playing 12 x 3 drops and 4 dorks. It's not like I desperately want to play a 3 drop on turn 2 and like I said the deck plays grind really well so more dorks doesn't really help. It's actually a reason many of the Junk decks aren't playing birds now cause there isn't such a need to accelerate anymore. Here's a link on recent abzan decks: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-abzan#online
I mean this is your thread that you made and you're asking whether or not Lily can be played in a modern midrange value deck. My deck is a modern midrange value deck and I'm giving you the reasons to why Lily is so successful for me. The only results I have are FNM and I came first again tonight; played Affinity, Twin, Junk and Elves. My LGS meta has all the tier 1/tier 2 decks and I've been jamming games on a daily basis.
I've had numerous people working together with me on this deck over the last 6 months so it's not just some random idea I'm spewing out at you hoping you're going to try it out. For me, the exposure for Lily will have to come from my own performance, and I actually hope to top 8 GP Modern Melbourne with this deck next March to do so - this deck has been my sole project with this one goal.
I don't normally respond to MTGS threads anymore cause discussion seems really stifled by ego's. But you made this thread seeking potential in Lily so I thought I'd shed some light.You even said "I have been looking for a thread on a abzan company list that focuses on value rather than combo". That is EXACTLY what I wanted 6 months ago and here I am now 6 months later with what I believe to be an amazing deck. There's no wall of roots, no 4x anafenza's, no reveillark, no varolz, no cartel aristocrats or any other cute combo crap in my deck. My combo package is quite minimal (I actually started with 1 seer, 1 ana, 1 melira, 4 finks, 3 chord during my early iterations) and the rest is filled for the value gameplan.
Anyways, I know it's easy to dismiss ideas that are weird or you can't fully comprehend but at the very least respect/appreciate others who have gone to lengths to answer the question you so easily ask (your very first post) - "Is there some type of midrange deck that our dear lady can fit into?"
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
3x Fulminator Mage
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Spellskite
2x Viscera Seer
4x Voice of Resurgence
Land (22)
1x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Woodland Cemetery
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Stony Silence
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Kataki, War's Wage
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Orzhov Pontiff
Been playing this list for over 4 months now and the Lili/Fulm package is such a great asset and improves almost all matchups (minus elves and merfolk). It changes the tron match up from 20-80 to 60-40 singlehandedly. Lily + Ewit is also broken for the value game, which the deck often finds itself in against Jund/Junk/Grixis games.
Yeah I completely disagree unless you're running 4 Anafenza's or something. It's a BGw deck that doesn't need WW really at all let alone early on so GG and BB are the main requirements. I have never found Anafenza's bolster to be relevant in any matchup and it really is just a win-more mechanic. I prefer Melira all the time due to her easy cost and relevancy in a meta where Infect + Affinity are tier 1.
No other deck that runs white plays her and I don't know why we should. I can definitely appreciate her applications but that goes for every other card in mtg. Why was she played in pod before? Maybe she shored up a weakness of pod or served as a reliable toolbox.
Without pod + the inclusion of company, I feel her and reveillark/thune should step back.