I think it's worth testing. I just often run into situations where I'd rather have the creature stay on the battlefield rather than go back to the graveyard. Hussar doesn't really net a card when brought back with emeria or sun Titan. 1/3 are underwhelming too. Only good at chump blocking or goblin guide.
It doesn't net you a card, but you can loot through your deck and fill your graveyard for Sun Titan targets. I really dislike blinking Hussar with Flickerwisp to draw a card and then having to sacrifice him. Not a line that happens often, but sometimes you need to find an answer. A 2/1 can apply more pressure than a 1/3 and can trade better. Also don't like bringing Hussar back with Sun Titan or Emeria, only for him to go back to the GY when you need an extra creature.
If we add some looting, it could be worth it to splash a single Godless shrine for lingering souls Sometimes this deck is slow to rebuild favorably after a Wrath, lingering souls could help and work with the "stall until turn 7-8" strategy.
Also, someone else brought up Rest in peace as a sideboard card. I still think its viable as a choice. It hampers our main wincon significantly, but it cripples other decks completely. We can still win through RIP with a wrath and a 6/6 with Vigilance. Play RiP, go with the value game plan.
Since Tidehollow Sculler is a bit annoying to cast, has anyone tried brain maggot? Doesn't beat down or trade in combat as well, but is way easier to cast. I figure most often, you just want to rip a card out of their hand and have something to process. You'd be able to play Brain Maggot turn 2, and then Strangler with just black Mana available.
I've thought about bringing up Displacer before. I personally like a 3/3 slightly more than a 3/1 for my Meta. Getting your Missionary and Flickerwisp two-fer'd by electrolyze really sucks. That being said, It might give you an extra way to generate value over a game, but I think most of the time you'll be missing colorless mana or available mana.
I think for Displacer the best set up would be 4 ghost quarter, 1 waste, and 3 pilgrim's eye. Pilgrims eye would make a good target for Displacer too.
I don't think Displacer will replace flickerwisp, since Displacer requires mana after its brought back with sun titan, but I think it may work as a 1-of or 2-of in addition to flickerwisp if your build would benefit. Displacer can only blink creatures; which for me, makes it worse than Flickerwisp. FW can reset walkers and bounce annoying enchantments like blood moon. I more often blink enchantments and other permanents than my own creatures for value.
Sun Titan can recur Tormod's Crypt. You generally only need to draw one Crypt to win the game versus most opponents you want it for. Because it costs 0 to play and immediately causes them to slow-roll (thus buying time), I tend to like it better than Wheel. That said, Wheel is quite strong.
Tormod's Crypt requires the right timing. You definitely gotta wait for the best time to Exile as many threats as possible. Although, I tend to jump the gun a bit.
Also worth noting that it is awesome to play Hussar turn three, dig for a Crypt, and be able to play it.
I wouldn't put Rest in Peace in the SB as it works too much against our own deck, while Tormod's Crypt might not be enough it can be combined with something like Wheel of Sun and Moon for a one-sided RiP.
I totally forgot about Wheel of Sun and Moon! For some reason I always think it requires green. Anyways, I think that may be our best option to deal with dredge or graveyard decks. It will also end up in our own graveyard if disenchanted, so we can recur it.
Has anyone used Hallowed Moonlight successfully? I've heard mix things about it. It replaces itself which is always good, but I feel like you absolutely need it at the right time. To me in a competitive match, it seems like a card that would work once, and then just be played around by the opponent next game.
Detention Sphere is awesome against dredge. It's nice locking up a bunch of Amalgam on turn 3. I think D-Sphere may just be better than Declaration in stone, or at least more versatile.
I may tryout Wheel of Sun and Moon in the side next time I enter a league. I also like Ghostly Prison, and may try that out in the future as well. For Ghostly Prison, I feel like 1 Main and 2 in the Side wouldn't be too cumbersome for this deck.
So Dredge is large meta-share right now, and is a bad match-up for this deck. Unfortunately, other decks packing graveyard hate isn't good for this archetype either.
That being said, I'm interested in discussing rest in peace in our sideboard. RiP completely shuts down our main win condition, but is significantly worst for Dredge than us, when played on turn two or three. I am considering trying out Rest in Peace instead of Tormod's Crypt. While Tormod's Crypt is "free" and can be recurred with Sun Titan, it doesn't do enough to slowdown Dredge in the matches I've played.
If we play Rest in Peace, Sun Titan is pretty much just a 6/6 for 6 and Emeria is a Plains, but it makes our Wrath's permanent against their graveyard Creatures. I think with their deck hosed enough, Sun Titan and Flickerwisp could close-out the game even without Emeria online. Most Dredge list won't have removal for either threat outside of Stinkweed imp. If they Disenchant Rest in Peace, Sun Titan can bring it back. We can just play a value/control game and win with a Six-drop and removal.
What are your opinions? Outside of Kami of the False Hope and other narrow tech, most of the usual sideboard cards aren't great against dredge.
I play the UW version, but I would imagine the GW version would have the same bad match-ups. The worst match-ups are archetypes that go big, like RG Tron, or Mid-Range decks with a high threat density. I've noticed this deck struggles most with Planeswalkers and big creatures.
Once a Planeswalker lands on the board, it can be really hard to deal with. Save your Negate for planeswalkers. Emeria Titan doesn't have enough aggressive creatures to reliably kill/tick down planeswalkers in the early turns. Flickerwisp can blink and reset, but it has to survive another turn before attacking the walker. Karn is just awful to deal with, and can set you back dramatically. You can detention sphere if you are on the play. If not, your probably a land short. If your opponent lands a Karn on turn 3 or 4, that's probably a game loss. Even if you have a couple of Missionaries out, they will get Exiled faster than they can attack, or swept with pyroclasm. GW would probably have a harder time against Tron without counters or D-Sphere (although O-Ring would work too).
Mid-range decks with large creatures and a high threat density are tough too. If you run out of removal, games swing in their favor. Without sometime like Snapcaster mage you can very quickly run out of removal. Aggro decks with X/2's or X/3's aren't a big deal if you leave one or two on the board, but 5/5's are tough. You can only block them once with your 2 and 3 drops. I haven't played against Bant Eldrazi, but I can imagine the match-up isn't great if you can't Wrath something other than dorks. I played against a standard Eldrazi deck with a bunch of 4-6 drops and planeswalkers, and I was way behind the whole time. I didn't win a game in the match, so I imagine the Modern tuned deck is more difficult. Playing against 5, 6, or 7 drop creatures is a weak point for the deck. Sun titan is usually the biggest dude on the board, but he's also a magnet for removal, so he may not get to block.
This deck is definitely Meta dependent and is best against faster aggro decks (like Zoo or Naya Burn) or attrition decks with lower threat densities (Jund, Abzan). I haven't had much trouble with Infect or Boggles for some reason. You just have to remember to switch to a more control style.
I've have this deck on MTGO and paper. I will agree with the sentiments of eldrazi skyspawner vs. pilgrim's eye. Currently, I think Skyspawner is better, even though I really like pilgrim's eye. I've tried taking PE out, and putting it back in a couple of time. The basic fetch is nice, but being a 1/1 is what hurts it the most. I think if it was a 1/2 or 2/1, I would definitely run it over Skyspawner. Sure, Spypawner dies to a souls token just like pilgrim's eye, but you're still left with a body/blocker for next turn. If the format slows down a bit, then Pilgrim's eye may be better, but for now, I'm also switching to Eldrazi Skyspawner. I'm in the middle of a MTGO league round, and I wish I had 2 Skyspawner and one more land (I'm running the 23 land list) instead of 3 Pilgrim's eyes.
On 3 or 4-of of Lone Missionary: I used to run 3 main and 1 side, but I also moved to 4 main. There are too many aggro matches were I kept siding them in. I also think Ojutai's command and aether spellbomb are just okay. They never seem to do much for me in any of my matched. Aether spell bomb also hasn't been great with so many ETB triggers on modern creatures. I'm in the camp that this deck is best when tapping out for strong plays, and leaving four mana open for Ojutai's Command is rare for me.
Okay. So just to clarify the nuances of Comp-REL play, I should have called a judge, it would have been to my advantage, and we would both would have received game play infractions. And the result would have allowed me to put Primeval Titan into play when resolving Dramatic Entrance.
I cast Dramatic Entrance on my opponents end step. Opponent response with Vendilion Clique with Dramatic Entrance on the stack. I reveal a Primeval Titan and two copies of Sakura-tribe elder in my hand. Opponent chooses Primeval Titan, and I put it under my library. I then put STE into play to resolve dramatic entrance. We go to my turn, and my opponent tells that I never drew a card for Vendilion Clique. I then draw Primeval Titan with that draw (before my draw step).
In the end, I don't think it would have made a huge difference in the outcome of the game, but should I have called a judge in this situation?
If I did, what would have happened? Vendilion Clique's draw is not a "may" ability, so I should have drawn during its resolution, but didn't. I then, myself, decided to resolve Dramatic Entrance and change phases/turn. If we resolved Clique's ability correctly, I could have put Primeval Titan into play, as it was my next draw. Additionally, I drew the card and put it in my hand before realizing we did things out of order. Also note, I do not think this was intentional by the opponent.
Hey guys, I like brewing and messing around with this archetype so I wanted to post a couple card evaluations.
Because I'm lazy and don't always have to time to move cards from deck to deck each week, I decided to try out a couple of budget cards so I can leave UW Emeria whole. I have Flickerwisp and Path to Exile in a Death and Taxes build, so I substituted Journey to Nowhere and Glimmerpoint Stag. Since that makes it more of a budget build now, I decided to try out a couple of 1-of cards for fun, too. I played a standard list with 23 lands and 4 titans.
Journey to Nowhere
JtN was surprisingly good. Not being instant speed is a bad for combat tricks, more the most part it was as good as Path in my matches. While it will not replace Path, and not nearly as good, if you want to play a budget version, Journey to Nowhere will work well. Personally, I prefer this over Path. Most of the cards in this archetype are sorcery speed anyways, so I prefer to play tap-out style. Most of the time when I hold up mana, I end up wasting a turn. It not being an instant only mattered for one attack phase with a Scavenging Ooze that could add a lethal +1/+1.
Glimmerpoint Stag
Super budget at only 10 to 20 cents each. Vigilance was very relevant as be blocks much better than flickerwisp. While he can't be recurred with Sun Titan, he can stick around a bit longer with 3 toughness. I liked him, and he had a good board presence with Sun Titan and Hussar never tapping to attack. You can usually have WW turn 4. Turn 3 WW is sometimes more difficult. Flickerwisp is stronger with Sun Titan in play.
Can't be recurred with Sun Titan. Biggest bummer here.
Grafted Wargear
I played 2x Grafted wargear to replace mortarpod. Too many 2 and higher toughness creatures right now for Mortar pod to be really good. Mortarpod is also sorcery equip, for me, that makes it not that great as a sac outlet. Wargear can sorcery speed sac for recur value, but without the cost and 1pt of damage. Grafted wargear worked awesome for me. I will definitely run this over Mortar pod from now on. Flickered creatures are exiled before the destroyed trigger, so the trigger has no target.
Pros
Makes everything a MONSTER. Pilgrim's Eye is way better with this attached.
Mirror Mockery
Kind of a pet card, but synergizes really well with this deck. I wouldn't play more than one, maybe 2 if you really like it. Can bounce a blocker if on Flickerwisp or Glimmerpoint Stag.
pros
More ETB effects!
Force opponent to waste a removal on an enchanted Lone Missionary, gaining 4 life each attack step seems too annoying to not kill.
Recur with Sun Titan
Can mirror one of their creatures to block or get an ETB effect
Cons
Aura, opens you up for 2-for-1
Can be a really bad top-deck if there are no creatures on the battlefield
Sometimes not impactful
Difficult to decide best target
White Sun's Zenith
Play as a 1-of. I loved it. Can also be a win-con. WWW isn't bad, since you don't want to cast this before turn 5 or 6 anyways. I suppose it could be casted for 1 if you really need a blocker. Can easily skipped over with Hussar if it's not needed. I casted it during opp's attack step with X=3, double blocked Raging Ravine to kill it, and still had a creature.
Pros
Can go big
Win-con
Cat 2/2's!
Shuffle effect
Can be cast multiple times as a 1-of
cons
Expensive
Sucks in opening hand
Dead card turns 1-3
Not a permanent to recur
I love testing out 1-of's in this archetype. Court Hussar is perfect to skip over or find 1-of's.
Say I have Omnath, Locus of rage and my opponent has kitchen finks. I attack with Omnath and opp. blocks with Finks. Before damage opp. shock's Omnath, so they trade. They both dies at the same time and trigger their abilities at the same time.
How do the triggers stack?
Is it possible for the Omnath's ability to bolt the persisted kitchen finks? Or would it not be able to since when the triggers are stacked Kitchen Finks is not yet a legal target?
Thanks guys. Thinking back on the match-up, the advice sounds about right. I definitely played sub-optimally and tried to be the aggressor.
I also kept holding onto Path for bomb creatures and infinite combo piece only for him to get crazy value out of viscera seer, orzhov pontiff, and voice of resurgence. Also not drawing a GQ against a Gavony Township, Birds, Birds, Birds, hand was probably going to be a blow-out regardless of how I played. Haha.
I think I may add a Relic of progenitus MB, since I have a flex spot with Blade splicer. Splicer has been a good 1-of, but I usually side it out most matches. Sometimes I also want an exiled card to get full value from wasteland strangler, which has been an all-star for me.
It doesn't net you a card, but you can loot through your deck and fill your graveyard for Sun Titan targets. I really dislike blinking Hussar with Flickerwisp to draw a card and then having to sacrifice him. Not a line that happens often, but sometimes you need to find an answer. A 2/1 can apply more pressure than a 1/3 and can trade better. Also don't like bringing Hussar back with Sun Titan or Emeria, only for him to go back to the GY when you need an extra creature.
If we add some looting, it could be worth it to splash a single Godless shrine for lingering souls Sometimes this deck is slow to rebuild favorably after a Wrath, lingering souls could help and work with the "stall until turn 7-8" strategy.
Also, someone else brought up Rest in peace as a sideboard card. I still think its viable as a choice. It hampers our main wincon significantly, but it cripples other decks completely. We can still win through RIP with a wrath and a 6/6 with Vigilance. Play RiP, go with the value game plan.
I personally feel that would be a tempo-combo deck, and not the long, drawn out tap out control strategy.
I think for Displacer the best set up would be 4 ghost quarter, 1 waste, and 3 pilgrim's eye. Pilgrims eye would make a good target for Displacer too.
I don't think Displacer will replace flickerwisp, since Displacer requires mana after its brought back with sun titan, but I think it may work as a 1-of or 2-of in addition to flickerwisp if your build would benefit. Displacer can only blink creatures; which for me, makes it worse than Flickerwisp. FW can reset walkers and bounce annoying enchantments like blood moon. I more often blink enchantments and other permanents than my own creatures for value.
Tormod's Crypt requires the right timing. You definitely gotta wait for the best time to Exile as many threats as possible. Although, I tend to jump the gun a bit.
Also worth noting that it is awesome to play Hussar turn three, dig for a Crypt, and be able to play it.
I totally forgot about Wheel of Sun and Moon! For some reason I always think it requires green. Anyways, I think that may be our best option to deal with dredge or graveyard decks. It will also end up in our own graveyard if disenchanted, so we can recur it.
Has anyone used Hallowed Moonlight successfully? I've heard mix things about it. It replaces itself which is always good, but I feel like you absolutely need it at the right time. To me in a competitive match, it seems like a card that would work once, and then just be played around by the opponent next game.
Detention Sphere is awesome against dredge. It's nice locking up a bunch of Amalgam on turn 3. I think D-Sphere may just be better than Declaration in stone, or at least more versatile.
I may tryout Wheel of Sun and Moon in the side next time I enter a league. I also like Ghostly Prison, and may try that out in the future as well. For Ghostly Prison, I feel like 1 Main and 2 in the Side wouldn't be too cumbersome for this deck.
That being said, I'm interested in discussing rest in peace in our sideboard. RiP completely shuts down our main win condition, but is significantly worst for Dredge than us, when played on turn two or three. I am considering trying out Rest in Peace instead of Tormod's Crypt. While Tormod's Crypt is "free" and can be recurred with Sun Titan, it doesn't do enough to slowdown Dredge in the matches I've played.
If we play Rest in Peace, Sun Titan is pretty much just a 6/6 for 6 and Emeria is a Plains, but it makes our Wrath's permanent against their graveyard Creatures. I think with their deck hosed enough, Sun Titan and Flickerwisp could close-out the game even without Emeria online. Most Dredge list won't have removal for either threat outside of Stinkweed imp. If they Disenchant Rest in Peace, Sun Titan can bring it back. We can just play a value/control game and win with a Six-drop and removal.
What are your opinions? Outside of Kami of the False Hope and other narrow tech, most of the usual sideboard cards aren't great against dredge.
Once a Planeswalker lands on the board, it can be really hard to deal with. Save your Negate for planeswalkers. Emeria Titan doesn't have enough aggressive creatures to reliably kill/tick down planeswalkers in the early turns. Flickerwisp can blink and reset, but it has to survive another turn before attacking the walker. Karn is just awful to deal with, and can set you back dramatically. You can detention sphere if you are on the play. If not, your probably a land short.
Mid-range decks with large creatures and a high threat density are tough too. If you run out of removal, games swing in their favor. Without sometime like Snapcaster mage you can very quickly run out of removal. Aggro decks with X/2's or X/3's aren't a big deal if you leave one or two on the board, but 5/5's are tough. You can only block them once with your 2 and 3 drops. I haven't played against Bant Eldrazi, but I can imagine the match-up isn't great if you can't Wrath something other than dorks. I played against a standard Eldrazi deck with a bunch of 4-6 drops and planeswalkers, and I was way behind the whole time. I didn't win a game in the match, so I imagine the Modern tuned deck is more difficult. Playing against 5, 6, or 7 drop creatures is a weak point for the deck. Sun titan is usually the biggest dude on the board, but he's also a magnet for removal, so he may not get to block.
This deck is definitely Meta dependent and is best against faster aggro decks (like Zoo or Naya Burn) or attrition decks with lower threat densities (Jund, Abzan). I haven't had much trouble with Infect or Boggles for some reason. You just have to remember to switch to a more control style.
On 3 or 4-of of Lone Missionary: I used to run 3 main and 1 side, but I also moved to 4 main. There are too many aggro matches were I kept siding them in. I also think Ojutai's command and aether spellbomb are just okay. They never seem to do much for me in any of my matched. Aether spell bomb also hasn't been great with so many ETB triggers on modern creatures. I'm in the camp that this deck is best when tapping out for strong plays, and leaving four mana open for Ojutai's Command is rare for me.
Thanks!
I cast Dramatic Entrance on my opponents end step. Opponent response with Vendilion Clique with Dramatic Entrance on the stack. I reveal a Primeval Titan and two copies of Sakura-tribe elder in my hand. Opponent chooses Primeval Titan, and I put it under my library. I then put STE into play to resolve dramatic entrance. We go to my turn, and my opponent tells that I never drew a card for Vendilion Clique. I then draw Primeval Titan with that draw (before my draw step).
In the end, I don't think it would have made a huge difference in the outcome of the game, but should I have called a judge in this situation?
If I did, what would have happened? Vendilion Clique's draw is not a "may" ability, so I should have drawn during its resolution, but didn't. I then, myself, decided to resolve Dramatic Entrance and change phases/turn. If we resolved Clique's ability correctly, I could have put Primeval Titan into play, as it was my next draw. Additionally, I drew the card and put it in my hand before realizing we did things out of order. Also note, I do not think this was intentional by the opponent.
Thanks!
Because I'm lazy and don't always have to time to move cards from deck to deck each week, I decided to try out a couple of budget cards so I can leave UW Emeria whole. I have Flickerwisp and Path to Exile in a Death and Taxes build, so I substituted Journey to Nowhere and Glimmerpoint Stag. Since that makes it more of a budget build now, I decided to try out a couple of 1-of cards for fun, too. I played a standard list with 23 lands and 4 titans.
Journey to Nowhere
JtN was surprisingly good. Not being instant speed is a bad for combat tricks, more the most part it was as good as Path in my matches. While it will not replace Path, and not nearly as good, if you want to play a budget version, Journey to Nowhere will work well. Personally, I prefer this over Path. Most of the cards in this archetype are sorcery speed anyways, so I prefer to play tap-out style. Most of the time when I hold up mana, I end up wasting a turn. It not being an instant only mattered for one attack phase with a Scavenging Ooze that could add a lethal +1/+1.
Pros
- Hits everything but boggles
- Doesn't ramp opponent
- Recurred with Sun Titan
- Can be blinked to hit a late-game threat
- Better than path against Dorks
ConsGlimmerpoint Stag
Super budget at only 10 to 20 cents each. Vigilance was very relevant as be blocks much better than flickerwisp. While he can't be recurred with Sun Titan, he can stick around a bit longer with 3 toughness. I liked him, and he had a good board presence with Sun Titan and Hussar never tapping to attack. You can usually have WW turn 4. Turn 3 WW is sometimes more difficult. Flickerwisp is stronger with Sun Titan in play.
Pros
- Vigilance is good with aggro meta
- Makes value flickers jsut as well as flickerwisp
- Super Budget for budget concerned players
- 3 toughness is better than 1
- Blocks 2/X's better than Flickerwisp
- Not hit by Inquisition of Kozilek
ConsGrafted Wargear
I played 2x Grafted wargear to replace mortarpod. Too many 2 and higher toughness creatures right now for Mortar pod to be really good. Mortarpod is also sorcery equip, for me, that makes it not that great as a sac outlet. Wargear can sorcery speed sac for recur value, but without the cost and 1pt of damage. Grafted wargear worked awesome for me. I will definitely run this over Mortar pod from now on. Flickered creatures are exiled before the destroyed trigger, so the trigger has no target.
Pros
- Makes everything a MONSTER. Pilgrim's Eye is way better with this attached.
- Awesome with Vigilance Creatures
- Recurred with Sun Titan
ConsMirror Mockery
Kind of a pet card, but synergizes really well with this deck. I wouldn't play more than one, maybe 2 if you really like it. Can bounce a blocker if on Flickerwisp or Glimmerpoint Stag.
pros
- More ETB effects!
- Force opponent to waste a removal on an enchanted Lone Missionary, gaining 4 life each attack step seems too annoying to not kill.
- Recur with Sun Titan
- Can mirror one of their creatures to block or get an ETB effect
ConsWhite Sun's Zenith
Play as a 1-of. I loved it. Can also be a win-con. WWW isn't bad, since you don't want to cast this before turn 5 or 6 anyways. I suppose it could be casted for 1 if you really need a blocker. Can easily skipped over with Hussar if it's not needed. I casted it during opp's attack step with X=3, double blocked Raging Ravine to kill it, and still had a creature.
Pros
- Can go big
- Win-con
- Cat 2/2's!
- Shuffle effect
- Can be cast multiple times as a 1-of
consI love testing out 1-of's in this archetype. Court Hussar is perfect to skip over or find 1-of's.
How do the triggers stack?
Is it possible for the Omnath's ability to bolt the persisted kitchen finks? Or would it not be able to since when the triggers are stacked Kitchen Finks is not yet a legal target?
I also kept holding onto Path for bomb creatures and infinite combo piece only for him to get crazy value out of viscera seer, orzhov pontiff, and voice of resurgence. Also not drawing a GQ against a Gavony Township, Birds, Birds, Birds, hand was probably going to be a blow-out regardless of how I played. Haha.
Next time I will sideout Thalia, guardian of thraben, and side in 3 graveyard hate cards.
I think I may add a Relic of progenitus MB, since I have a flex spot with Blade splicer. Splicer has been a good 1-of, but I usually side it out most matches. Sometimes I also want an exiled card to get full value from wasteland strangler, which has been an all-star for me.