I realize this isn't the place for UW control discussion, but after watching TCG Player's Corey Baumeister play this Esper list where cards like The Scarab God and Vraska's Contempt were sometimes cards he cut and added in more Lyra Dawnbringer, wishing there were more Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Maybe pure UW is the way to go?
That being said the list performed very well as Esper, though the mana woes were real. 26 lands is likely where we want to be, and perhaps some attention paid to the colour fixing as well if this list is a real shell going forward.
After SCG ATL, I think Lyra Dawnbringer's usefulness will be diminished. Besides the finals, those things were eating Unlicenced Disintegrations all day. Red players are finally starting to play Puncturing Blow, also. I wouldn't lean on it as a main strategy. I still feel it's a SB card.
Doomfall seems like a very good main deck card especially against midrange/control decks that plays a lot of threats. I don't think just 4 vraska's contempt is enough against decks playing lyra, karn and teferi. It's pretty good to snag annoying saga too. What do you guys think?
I also still think that staying U/B is better than Esper since we now get phyrexian scriptures. A combination of scriptures with yahenni's expertise/golden demise is pretty good for U/B to handle any go-wide decks.
These lists are interesting. IDK if I can get behind Esper with no Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria, though. The card is SO STRONG. I also agree on Lyra Dawnbringer not being a MD card.
I can see how Contraband Kingpin would work better in some situations, but it's not really a reactive play. You cast it and give your opponent options. Fungal Infection is better in that regard, but I will agree that realistically it'd be the only matchup you want to bring them in for. Is that enough to justify SB space?
Exactly, I don't see a problem with enabling removal they would use on your good creatures afterwards. They're spending mana and being inefficient. The only real problem I would see, which is a legit one, is enabling Unlicensed Disintegration and helping them race.
I just don't think there is enough room to play removal THAT narrow. Also, what match is it decent against beside red and maybe tokens? Seems mediocre to terrible against everything else. It may kill Ballista for 1 and Siphoner, but do you really want to hinge a match on that chance? Kingpin is at least a relevant speed bump in every aggro/midrange match, great against red, and is insane resurrected by The Scarab God.
It looks a bit weak, but usable. Would you see yourself taking any of your counterspells out to put this card in? I guess you could cut your removal count (depending on how fond you are of Fatal Push) if you really wanted to include it, definitely could see use. Even Liliana, Death's Majesty loops look pretty sick. Hell, you're kinda selling me on it.
I think I'd still play Commit over it, but this fall, it looks like good money. Into The Roil was really good in it's Standard.
Ok, Domanaira, I think the new set is going to make standard into a very fast format. The guys at my LGS has been brewing UG Monsters and now drop Carnage Tyrant on turn 3 pretty consistently. Our old way of thinking about games, play land go until turn 4-5 then board wipe, I don't think is going to work.
Respect the Carnage Tyrant...and all of the other pushed, high priced stuff that will be coming out really fast now. Playing no sort of hard answer to it may lead to some ugly losses...
Hmmm, so you'd rather go for a 2 Fatal Push 2 Cast Down 2 Moment of Craving split? I can see the merit, but I'd argue versatility over efficiency G1. Do you see your local meta as a place where you'll be forced to specialize for R/X Aggro? If so, no argument there. I'll concede your argument in favor of Cast Down, but I don't see myself ever replacing a Fatal Push with a Moment of Craving in my main. It's not as hard to turn on as people think, even without a playset of Evolving Wilds.
I'm testing 4 Cast Down, 3 Moment Of Craving, and it is looking really good right now, but I am Esper, so I have Settle to clean up. These are just to keep me alive until the mid game. I think UB has to be even more selective since your sweepers are much less versatile.
Really go-wide matchups where an extra chump block shines, making the card 2 for 1; midrange matchups where you can still use the block later on; as a combat trick in situations where Fatal Push can't be used; and as a way to reduce 2 damage in situations where Fatal Push would do nothing.
Like I said before, I probably won't be making room in my main 60 for it, but I think it covers enough creatures with good upside to prove relevant. It loses to Push hard post 3 CMC provided you can turn Push on, so it's probably not main material. At least not in mine.
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect this to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
Seems like you've been in trouble vs this deck several times, what specific line of play are you having issues with? I don't expect to mainboard vs everything, and if I'm building the way I'm building (I'll probably need 2 Doomfall main regardless, need the miandeck response vs Tyrant) you expect to have an unfavorable MU against Dinos in exchange of a better MU against Constrictor. Post SB, you got Vizier of Many Faces, Gifted Aetherborn, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury to deal.
You do make a lot of valid points tho, not in the form of lifegain but in the form of lifeloss, if that makes sense. As such, I'm adjusting some things and probably passing on Dark Bargain for the time being:
Honestly, I've only lost to a Carnage Tyrant once or twice. I still feel the need to have a real plan for them, they are seeing more and more play where I am. People are tired of losing to me and my friend who plays Esper Cycling (possibly the most annoying, grindy deck on Earth lol).
I feel like the deck has some tension between tapping out and leaving up permission. Champion of Wits and Doomfall are fine cards, but it makes it much harder to represent Disallow, Syncopate, and Supreme Will. If you would like to field more creatures I think a tap-out midrange style such as the UB Midrange lists seeing tournament success would be better. The deck is very trim on permission with most of their reactive spells on CMC 4 to defend the threats they tapped out for, or get ahead on board with removal. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is also a great card, sometimes winning the game on its own if an opponent stumbles or is removal light. There would be plenty of room in the mana base for 4 Aether Hub.
I like the reanimation theme and Memorial to Folly in a creature heavy build. I would prefer more Field of Ruin since the colour base is consistent to combat enemy utility lands. Ipnu Rivulet could be good to fill up your graveyard with threats or act as an out to a control stalemate. I also like Doomfall in a tap out build since it is so flexible.
Since it has been debated I will reiterate on Fungal Infection; I think it will be a great sideboard card against all the x/1s mentioned by Torrysan. Others could include:
It's just so tempo positive on many of our opponent's plays while also creating difficult combat situations and saving us some life. In game 2 one would expect most removal to come out against a control player, making the token the spell creates a nice speed bump without contest in most occasions. If the opponent would like to leave in Fatal Push against us to dump on the incidental creature, they are welcome.
What are people's thoughts on Censor in the coming format? Feels great that it can get anything early, especially when others are trying to advance their mana with Llanowar Elves. But would we just rather more removal instead of the cycling late?
Personally, I think Llanowar Elves make Censor almost unplayable. That T1 boost will render it obsolete even faster in games.
I can see that happening, no doubt. If I'm on the play in that situation, and am lucky enough to get a non-tap land down, I'd just Push the Elf and buy myself a turn. On the draw, I'd probably be in trouble, so I guess my two copies of Cast Down would have to do. Still don't think lifegain is necessary G1 besides my 4-of Vraska's Contempt, so Imma roll 4 Fatal Push and 2 Cast Down.
That's a large assumption. I also don't see how you survive red (or Goblins, especially with Siege-Gang Commander now) or Vehicles without a good amount of lifegain. Your margin of error will be razor thin.
Fungal Infection looks reaaaaally good. I'm contemplating putting it in SB, but idk what to take out for it.
Really good against what? You're making a guy to turn on their removal. What x/1 or x/2 is this good against where you wouldn't rather have Push, Cast Down, or Moment?
Why not Doomfall then? it has so much more versatility and gets rid of Carnage Tyrant with both its modes. I think it just accumulated a lot of "it's a horrible card" opinions, but I've never had it in my hand as a dead card I can't cast. Maybe once against GW tokens?
It gets rid of Carnage Tyrant...except when you didn't have time to kill the random Llanowar Elves lingering around, or whatever other weenie you ignored in favor of the real threats. I like the card in general, but that's the type of thing that can cost you a match. Better safe than sorry.
I can agree with that, but you're neglecting the mana cost. A single black allows you to play more fluidly, and if you're worried about G1, a decent amount of Vraska's Contempt should get you through it.
I'm going Esper, so far, I will have will have max 3 T1 black sources. I'll also have Settle The Wreckage to clean up bad board states. I am not going to be the guy who loses because his opponent won the die roll and had T1 Llanowar Elves, T2 Steel Leaf Champion or Jadelight Ranger, and hit twice. If I was UB, maybe, but I also don't like having to play several Evolving Wilds to keep my Fatal Pushes "on".
If you're in trouble, like, real trouble, you'll need to tap out for this. That leaves you with no counter for the next turn and potential to blow out your saga and lose you the game. Personally, I'm steering clear of board wipes until I see a decent enough BG tokens deck running around. And have we really forgotten we have Yahenni's Expertise for those situations anyways? I feel the card fits better in a creature based midrange deck. Hell, it's great with Walking Ballista for BGx Counters.
I generally agree, but if staying UB, I feel like there needs to be at least 1 "hard" sweeper in your 75. I refuse to lose to T6 (now maybe T4 or 5) Carnage Tyrant. Commit alone isn't enough of a safety net for me.
This is what I am thinking of starting with once Dominaria is released. Outside of 4 cards every non-land can be played on their turn. I've opted for a white splash to get access to Seal Away and Cast Out for removal and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria as a strong, must be answered threat. Cast Out also has the ability to be cycled away, if needed. This is by no means the final product and I can already see a few possible changes that I might want to make once I can use the cards.
Urza's Ruinous Blast seems bad. This deck will only have 3 ways main deck to enable casting it. I'm pretty sure more will be needed
Yes. I refuse to play any Legendary Sorceries. If they counted all permanent types, Search For Azcanta would probably make them viable, but a couple of Teferis and a couple Scarab Gods are way too risky to hinge games on, especially for your sweeper. Why would you want Urza's Ruinous Blast over Settle The Wreckage any way? It exiles, and is instant. Also, It doesn't leave your opponents legendary creatures back to keep killing you...
The Dominaria spoiler is listed as complete, so now we can start talking about which cards seem good to add in to existing shells.
For me, Phyrexian Scriptures seems to be the certain replacement for Bontu's Last Reckoning, especially based on the idea that Torrysan mentions above - Reckoning is better dropped on 5+, which would be when Scriptures would go off... Of course, the list of cards below is UB-centric. It could be that Esper may become feasible, splashing for Urza's Ruinous Blast, Teferi, etc.
Copied over from the thread I had in SNCD, here's the cards that I've seen that could be interesting... Bold = probably close to certain inclusions, Italic = possibles, Normal - looks like fun, probably not worth it.
Blue Syncopate - useful scaleable counter spell, that exiles too. Likely a certain inclusion as it can deal with Scarab God and eternalize/embalm creatures. Unwind - a "free" Negate, but costs one more to start with. Possible one-of? Divination - A reprint that has been often used in control decks. May not fit in a reactive deck, but could be good for tap-out. Blink of an Eye - may not replace Commit // Memory, but is could be an option with kicker. Deep Freeze - sideboard card for Scarab Gods? Precognition Field - most likely jank, but tempting to try. Doesn't work well with Search, but in the late game allows filtering etc.
Black Cast Down - this could likely going to replace Moment of Craving in the main, as it's a guaranteed kill (against nonlegendaries). Means we can save Contempt for the key cards like Hazoret and TSG. Potentially even a 3-4-of, and a reduction on Essence Scatter? Depends on how legend heavy decks become. Phyrexian Scriptures - article on SCG talking about this card on 10 Apr. Could be underrated. Dark Bargain - possible... Sees one more than Hieroglyphic Illumination, although the cycling is nice early. Demonlord Belzenlok - a one-of top end? Josu Vess, Lich Knight - a one-of top end? Rite of Belzenlok - possibly a sideboard card to be used as a finisher in control mirrors?
Gold Rona, Disciple of Gix - again, probably jank, but could be interesting connected with Precognition Field.
Colorless Karn, Scion of Urza - Could he be worth it solely for card advantage? It's not that likely to get a strong -2. Of course, once you've stabilised, you only need 3-4 turns to churn out a huge amount of damage from the tokens (assuming he's been around +1ing for a while).
Land Memorial to Genius - another draw "spell" that is easier on the mana base than Arch of Orazca, although Arch is reusable. Zhalfirin Void - harkens back to the Theros Temples, but doesn't CIPT, and is colorless. Memorial to Folly - return a Gearhulk or a Scarab God? Seems ok...
My 2 cents...
Syncopate - Good, but what does it replace? I can't see not playing Disallow because of the utility, and the flat mana cost. Also, Syncopate totally falls apart when you miss land drops...and crap in the control mirror.
Unwind - I wish it was Rewind, but I'll take it. Not being able to Negate on T2 is bad, but otherwise, it's all upside. Unwind, untap, Glimmer Of Genius will probably break games...
Cast Down - Call me crazy, but I think it replaces Fatal Push before Moment Of Craving. I know, I know, hear me out...
1. It covers like 90 to 95% of what Fatal Push covers, but -2/-2 kills some things that Fatal Push doesn't.
2. I expect Goblins to become the mono red deck of choice, and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, the biggest hole in the Cast Down plan, should see less play.
3. We still need the life gain against aggro. Removal gaining life is one of UB's biggest advantages right now.
4. It's almost never a bad top deck, unlike Fatal Push. No need for Revolt. Unless Legend.dec becomes a thing, Cast Down fails way less.
Phyrexian Scriptures - The downside on this is probably better than Bontu's Last Reckoning. Letting things you need to kill badly (Carnage Tyrant) live a turn is very dangerous. Also opens you up to Heroic Intervention even more since they get time to prepare, though you will have mana to counter it. It also fails bad against Brontodon and Naturalize. We'll see. I plan on doing Esper (Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria and Settle The Wreckage, along with really good aggro hate), but if I go back to UB, I'll probably at least give it a chance. Also, a nonbo with The Scarab God.
Karn, Scion Of Urza - IMO, totally overrated outside of dedicated artifact decks. Another reason I want to play Esper, I see Vehicles, or some new variant, making a HUGE comeback on Karn's back.
Memorial To Folly - Also yes. Being able to run out creatures with less risk, as well as overload opponent's removal sound great. Lessens their ability to win by stopping The Scarab God.
How do you guys face UW Drake Haven? There's one person in my meta who plays that and it's the only deck I consistently lose to or draw against when I play UB or Grixis (assuming Lost Legacy doesn't make it)
When playing Esper or BW Conntrol, I do fine.
It's the only deck I dislike facing. How do you guys play against it? Minus counter spells, is Lost Legacy the key card?
What Chaos021 siad is true. With UB, you have to aggressively Duress and Negate your way into keeping Drake Haven off the board. If you can do that, you pretty much win. Commit helps. Lost Legacy is crap in general, but it does help a lot if you can force it through, or catch them with shields down.
I haven´t played Standard in ages, but I´m considering picking this deck up, the straight UB Control list with lots of counters and God + Hulk as the only creatures. Could anyone please give me a rundown of its good and bad matchups? Does it have very swingy matchups, or are you in the game most of the time? How does the deck fare against UB Midrange? GR Monsters? Sultai Energy? Grixis Energy? Mono Red? UW Gift? UW Approach? GB Snake?
Thanks for any help, I searched for a bit and didn´t find anything, and I´d like to know a bit about this before I drop $300 on it.
To be brief, I feel it's good to great against everything except UW Cycling, and Vehicles. Play skill is key, as there is not a lot of room for error, unless your opponent is not having a great game, either.
1. Commit + Field of Ruin is just hoping to get really lucky imo.
2. Gifted Aetherborn (and Gonti) seem a bit weak against Sultai, which is the main deck that plays it that I'm concerned about.
3. The Scarab God often eats the Vraska's Contempts they boarded in and/or main decked. It's literally the only card most of them care to kill unless I'm already so far ahead.
4. I'm convinced Bontu's Last Reckoning is just bad.
In the cases of 1, 3 and 4, I'd rather just play multiple Doomfall. Otherwise, I end up having to wait and hope they do nothing to mess up my plan.
Valid, but I think the combination of all of these has me covered. I like Doomfall in general, but I don't like it in today's meta. I'm trying to focus on instants and creatures for Gearhulk and TSG, respectively. Also, Doomfal failing to ANYTHING else being alive on board is a deal breaker, for THAT particular purpose. BTW, Bontu's is a 1 of in the board, IF I keep it in, I agree that it's bad, but it's a good last resort.
On the play, bring in Negate and whatever Moment Of Cravings are in SB. Also, any additional exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
On the draw, bring in less Negate (I do 1 or 2 instead of 3), Moment of Craving, and exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
After SCG ATL, I think Lyra Dawnbringer's usefulness will be diminished. Besides the finals, those things were eating Unlicenced Disintegrations all day. Red players are finally starting to play Puncturing Blow, also. I wouldn't lean on it as a main strategy. I still feel it's a SB card.
We discussed these issues a page or two ago.
EDIT: From the U/W Approach thread:
Respect the Carnage Tyrant...and all of the other pushed, high priced stuff that will be coming out really fast now. Playing no sort of hard answer to it may lead to some ugly losses...
I'm testing 4 Cast Down, 3 Moment Of Craving, and it is looking really good right now, but I am Esper, so I have Settle to clean up. These are just to keep me alive until the mid game. I think UB has to be even more selective since your sweepers are much less versatile.
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect this to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
Honestly, I've only lost to a Carnage Tyrant once or twice. I still feel the need to have a real plan for them, they are seeing more and more play where I am. People are tired of losing to me and my friend who plays Esper Cycling (possibly the most annoying, grindy deck on Earth lol).
Personally, I think Llanowar Elves make Censor almost unplayable. That T1 boost will render it obsolete even faster in games.
That's a large assumption. I also don't see how you survive red (or Goblins, especially with Siege-Gang Commander now) or Vehicles without a good amount of lifegain. Your margin of error will be razor thin.
Really good against what? You're making a guy to turn on their removal. What x/1 or x/2 is this good against where you wouldn't rather have Push, Cast Down, or Moment?
It gets rid of Carnage Tyrant...except when you didn't have time to kill the random Llanowar Elves lingering around, or whatever other weenie you ignored in favor of the real threats. I like the card in general, but that's the type of thing that can cost you a match. Better safe than sorry.
I'm going Esper, so far, I will have will have max 3 T1 black sources. I'll also have Settle The Wreckage to clean up bad board states. I am not going to be the guy who loses because his opponent won the die roll and had T1 Llanowar Elves, T2 Steel Leaf Champion or Jadelight Ranger, and hit twice. If I was UB, maybe, but I also don't like having to play several Evolving Wilds to keep my Fatal Pushes "on".
I generally agree, but if staying UB, I feel like there needs to be at least 1 "hard" sweeper in your 75. I refuse to lose to T6 (now maybe T4 or 5) Carnage Tyrant. Commit alone isn't enough of a safety net for me.
No Search For Azcanta? Card is bonkers.
Yes. I refuse to play any Legendary Sorceries. If they counted all permanent types, Search For Azcanta would probably make them viable, but a couple of Teferis and a couple Scarab Gods are way too risky to hinge games on, especially for your sweeper. Why would you want Urza's Ruinous Blast over Settle The Wreckage any way? It exiles, and is instant. Also, It doesn't leave your opponents legendary creatures back to keep killing you...
My 2 cents...
Syncopate - Good, but what does it replace? I can't see not playing Disallow because of the utility, and the flat mana cost. Also, Syncopate totally falls apart when you miss land drops...and crap in the control mirror.
Unwind - I wish it was Rewind, but I'll take it. Not being able to Negate on T2 is bad, but otherwise, it's all upside. Unwind, untap, Glimmer Of Genius will probably break games...
Cast Down - Call me crazy, but I think it replaces Fatal Push before Moment Of Craving. I know, I know, hear me out...
1. It covers like 90 to 95% of what Fatal Push covers, but -2/-2 kills some things that Fatal Push doesn't.
2. I expect Goblins to become the mono red deck of choice, and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, the biggest hole in the Cast Down plan, should see less play.
3. We still need the life gain against aggro. Removal gaining life is one of UB's biggest advantages right now.
4. It's almost never a bad top deck, unlike Fatal Push. No need for Revolt. Unless Legend.dec becomes a thing, Cast Down fails way less.
Phyrexian Scriptures - The downside on this is probably better than Bontu's Last Reckoning. Letting things you need to kill badly (Carnage Tyrant) live a turn is very dangerous. Also opens you up to Heroic Intervention even more since they get time to prepare, though you will have mana to counter it. It also fails bad against Brontodon and Naturalize. We'll see. I plan on doing Esper (Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria and Settle The Wreckage, along with really good aggro hate), but if I go back to UB, I'll probably at least give it a chance. Also, a nonbo with The Scarab God.
Karn, Scion Of Urza - IMO, totally overrated outside of dedicated artifact decks. Another reason I want to play Esper, I see Vehicles, or some new variant, making a HUGE comeback on Karn's back.
Memorial To Genius - Yes please. I love Arch Of Orazca in two color, I think this is way better in three color.
Memorial To Folly - Also yes. Being able to run out creatures with less risk, as well as overload opponent's removal sound great. Lessens their ability to win by stopping The Scarab God.
The super-loot and the emblem could be devastating. Doubt she does much, if any damage in Standard. Could be wrong, though.
What Chaos021 siad is true. With UB, you have to aggressively Duress and Negate your way into keeping Drake Haven off the board. If you can do that, you pretty much win. Commit helps. Lost Legacy is crap in general, but it does help a lot if you can force it through, or catch them with shields down.
To be brief, I feel it's good to great against everything except UW Cycling, and Vehicles. Play skill is key, as there is not a lot of room for error, unless your opponent is not having a great game, either.
Valid, but I think the combination of all of these has me covered. I like Doomfall in general, but I don't like it in today's meta. I'm trying to focus on instants and creatures for Gearhulk and TSG, respectively. Also, Doomfal failing to ANYTHING else being alive on board is a deal breaker, for THAT particular purpose. BTW, Bontu's is a 1 of in the board, IF I keep it in, I agree that it's bad, but it's a good last resort.
Commit + Field Of Ruin
Gifted Aetherborn
Nehazal, Primal Tide
The Scarab God + anything
Bontu's last Reckoning
Haven't lost to a Carnage Tyrant in ages.
On the play, bring in Negate and whatever Moment Of Cravings are in SB. Also, any additional exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
On the draw, bring in less Negate (I do 1 or 2 instead of 3), Moment of Craving, and exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
Lower you curve, but leave in Torrential Gearhulk and The Scarab God (force them to deal with them, as well as card advantage).
I could go in depth with a decklist to go off of.