Mental Misstep is a good card and I like it as a 4-of in a lot of matchups. Its the perfect card to eat a STP/PTE, Sensei's top, AEther vial or what have you. However there are some decks that don't rely very much on 1-drops so I am just hesitant to auto-include 4 in the MD. I didn't show my sideboard below, but it includes the other 2 Mental Misstep if my opponent is indeed playing a ton of stuff I need to counter. I guess the real reason I am only running 2 is because I don't like the card yet because I haven't played with it hardly at all. Once exams are over this week I can devote a ton of time to the deck and make a more informed decision.
I definitely like Thopter Foundry as it won a couple matches for me all by itself. It is the perfect card to eat up excess Opals/Vials/lands, gain life, and beat down. It is also a fantastic solution to your opponent's removal.
I am building a gauntlet to test with a friend so I'll get a lot more comfortable with playing with the numbers in the deck.
I like the idea of Thopter Foundry. I am going to start testing it, but I NEVER want to hear about playing Sword of the Meek. However, I am still hesitant about cutting MOE completely. I am testing the following list:
I think I like Mental Misstep quite a bit, for no other reason that it stops STP. However, I don't think it is automatically a 4-of. I have been running 2, here's my list:
However, I really dislike moving to Ancient Den over Darksteel Citadel. I have won too many games on the back of a 5/5 indestructible land. The larger bonus comes from the fact that it can't be Wastelanded away. Dispatch is a powerful card when we have Metalcraft, but we already do pretty well against random aggro decks IMO. In a Wasteland heavy environment, I would not include Dispatch. However, the fact that it can hit Kataki is pretty good. My problem is that assuming they get a Kataki out, we have to have Dispatch in hand to hit before our upkeep which makes things hard. If we draw it after she has cycled for a few turns, we are in trouble (because our lands have to save themselves!).
Other notes:
Jitte is really good. I love that card. When you get a jitte online turn 3, most decks just scoop.
I need to test more, but I 3 Mox Opal could be better just because drawing multiples is just an absolute bummer. However there are games when I don't have one and when I topdeck one it lets me do a surprise turn 2 Master, or Plating+equip, or turn 3 tezzeret. I think I agree overall to cutting down to 3 AEther Vial and keeping the 4 Mox. 4 Mox is better game 2-3 because they like to use their Ancient Grudges on our manabase :(.
I definitely think we shouldn't cut any more creatures. My list is running 19, and generally I have found that when this deck loses, it is because it runs out of creatures.
Torpor Orb is nice because it shuts down Stoneforge Mystic, but I really don't think it has a place in our sideboard.
Myr Superion is not great in this deck because we NEED an Aether Vial to cast it, otherwise it is a dead card.
There is a 1/1 flying lifelink artifact creature for 1 colorless and 1 Black/pay 2 life mana that is ok I suppose. Otherwise, nothing really jumped out at me. I could see playing Hex parasite though.
I was just tossing some ideas out there Anyway, I played some more matches against green & taxes. I really think it's an even MU. I don't get why there seems to be this consensus that its one of our worst MUs?
I was talking specifically about Mono-White D&T. Green is a better MU because they have fewer tricks but larger creatures (despite Qasali Pridemage).
@ Aluren:
I would like to, really. However it will take me a while to assemble the deck ( I don't own the Mox Opals or Tezzeret ). The rest of it is pretty easy/inexpensive to put together. I am aiming for an SCG event in June :).
I just went through a string of pretty bad losses with the deck, so I have been trying to figure out some more radical changes. I cut Thirst for Knowledge and put in 2 Vendilion Clique. It is a nice card to have in conjunction with Tidehollow Sculler to pick apart the opponent's hand, but overall it has been pretty mediocre.
I don't think Leyline of the Void is all that great in this deck. If we have it in our opening hand, great. But by the time we get to 4 land to cast it, we have probably already lost. I think Tormod's Crypt and Relic are an appropriate amount of graveyard hate in the board (in addition to counting as artifacts for Tezzeret/Plating/Metalcraft etc. I currently run 3 Relic of Progenitus and 2 Tormod's Crypt, although I really haven't tested the dredge matchup very much.
As far as Reanimator goes, I think we're just screwed unless we draw that early crucial Crypt/Relic.
I think I might be open to trying out Thirst for Knowledge. Drawing multiple Mox can be very annoying, and I don't think there necessarily needs to be any sort of graveyard recursion. Thirst for Knowledge is good because it is an instant. I am pondering cutting two cards and trying it as a 2-of. However, I don't expect this to work out, because it might just be too expensive to be able to cast in a not of matches. I think I'll cut 1 Mox Opal and 1 Thoughtcast.
One thing I have been noticing about this deck is that against removal-heavy decks, it is easy to run out of threats. 75% of games are won with an Etched Champion wielding a Cranial Plating simply because it is almost invincible. The rest of the games are won with Either a Tezzeret, or a fast Master of Etherium.
As far as match-ups go, I have encountered a few problematic ones while testing. Mono-W Death and Taxes is a whore of a match-up. They have a lot of tricks with targeted permanent removal and STP/PTE, not to mention all the bouncing tricks with Flickerwisp/Stonecloaker. The only way to beat them game 1 is to get a Plating on a Etched Champion or an early Tezzeret (since they can take a while to get their aggro online). Post-board, the match-up is nigh unwinnable as they bring in various artifact-hate cards, namely Pithing Needle/Kataki/hate.
Another bad one can be The Gate or mono-black. They usually have Innocent Blood/Gatekeeper of Malakir to make us sac our few creatures ( bye-bye Etched Champion ), and discard to remove our other threats. Post board they bring in Null Rod and I have even seen a Nevinyrral's Disk :'(. This could easily be one of our worst matchups, and I am not sure what to do about it.
However, the more popular decks such as the blue aggro variants (Bant, Countertop, Merfolk, etc) are really quite favorable.
Dredge is not so good of a matchup, and Combo isn't game 1, but improves after sideboarding.
I like Tidehollow Sculler because (for me, in the games I have been playing recently on MWS) he is a big fat target for removal. The number of times I have taken a lightning bolt with him is quite large, and they usually waste a piece of removal on him just to get it back, which I find funny. I have to say this deck is staggeringly fun to play when it is playing well. I mean, I just beat a threshold player (old school UGR thresh) by beating face with an etched champion wielding a Jitte.
I just had an elves combo player scoop to me because I had a Vedalken Certrarch to tap down his 1 Gaea's Cradle every turn (Phyrexian revoker goes a long way in the elves matchup).
I am only playing 1 Jitte, 4 cranial plating because I topdeck like a pro (and because in most cases I find cranial plating strictly better, especially when I have an etched champion). Time after time, Aether Vial is the best card in the deck. I win so many matches having instant-speed Prevoker, Champion, and Master. Sculler hasn't really won games for me - he just always ends up the target for removal, as does Master. Etched champion is the MVP.
Something is still not right with the deck, and I can't decide whether it is the stupid MWS shuffling system or the deck. I think I need to put this together and start playing in real life with it.
About the Ancient Tomb/Chalice possibilities, I definitely don't think it belongs in this deck specifically. But I am glad the other thread popped up with it in a more aggro-ish perspective. Tomb/Chalice seems cumbersome in the extreme to try and fit in this build.
I don't think any of the cards leaked from New Phyrexia so far belong in the maindeck here. The Spellspitter is a good card and has some good possibilities in the sideboard to be boarded in against removal-heavy decks playing STP/Doom Blade/smother/ghastly demise etc. He seems awfully conditional though, and without a vial active to slap him into play, he can be played around. But I will definitely try him out as a 2-of once the set becomes legal.
Well, T1 lackey is unstoppable unless we chump with a Cetrarch or have Force. After that it is very easy for them to overrun us, especially with a Goblin Chieftan. I agree though that if we can get ahead of them with Master or a Champion+plating we are golden. But goblins can be very explosive. I like the matchup, and it may very well be better than 50/50.
Usually against Standstill they dropped it turn 2 when I didn't have a vial. They won't play a standstill if you have an active vial anyways. Their pithing needles can shut us down. I may have just caught Dreadstill with a bunch of very good draws, but I think the matchup is not so simple because they have more counter magic and usually STP to back up their threats.
Also, I am still not sold on replacing Ornithopter - it significantly slows the deck innot having additional turn 1 plays - namely having a turn 1 ornithopter, mox, land, plating
I think you're right with Gemstone Caverns. Guess I've been lucky since I haven't had it Wasteland'd yet. But its a very real danger. Might have to consider it :S
As for scullers/Jittes.. They work wonders for this control build. You'll see (:
Vialing a Sculler at end of draw phase is amazing. Or after they tutor for something. Its priceless!
I agree that I like the Scullers, and if we're to keep them, we definitely need 4 City of Brass.
I just played four matches against Dreadstill, and I have to say this is a pretty terrible matchup. I won maybe 3 games in the 4 matches, although I made some play mistakes, I don't think that it is winnable. Even post board, bringing in 2 Annul and 3 Steel Sabotage really doesn't improve anything.
One game was won on the back of a Tezzeret making a 5/5, and tapping down their one blocker with a Cetrarch. I think all my games were won using a Cetrarch to tap blockers and getting through with a Cranial Plating or something. However, their ability to tutor up a Needle on our Tezzeret or aether vials is crippling. We also don't have any game 1 answers to a dreadnought except maybe making one of our guys big enough, which is difficult to do through their countermagic/STP. However, I must admit that I had pretty rotten luck with landscrew.
I would also put the Goblins matchup at around 50/50. Either we have an answer to T1 Lackey or we get overrun with creatures.
You also don't have me listed in the first post.
I definitely like Thopter Foundry as it won a couple matches for me all by itself. It is the perfect card to eat up excess Opals/Vials/lands, gain life, and beat down. It is also a fantastic solution to your opponent's removal.
I am building a gauntlet to test with a friend so I'll get a lot more comfortable with playing with the numbers in the deck.
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Brass
Creatures:
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Etched Champion
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Master of Etherium
4 Thoughtcast
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Mental Misstep
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Mox Opal
3 Aether Vial
3 Cranial Plating
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 City of Brass
Creatures
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Cranial Plating
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
Non-Blue
3 Mox Opal
2 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtcast
2 Mental Misstep
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Perish
3 Steel Sabotage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
However, I really dislike moving to Ancient Den over Darksteel Citadel. I have won too many games on the back of a 5/5 indestructible land. The larger bonus comes from the fact that it can't be Wastelanded away. Dispatch is a powerful card when we have Metalcraft, but we already do pretty well against random aggro decks IMO. In a Wasteland heavy environment, I would not include Dispatch. However, the fact that it can hit Kataki is pretty good. My problem is that assuming they get a Kataki out, we have to have Dispatch in hand to hit before our upkeep which makes things hard. If we draw it after she has cycled for a few turns, we are in trouble (because our lands have to save themselves!).
Other notes:
Jitte is really good. I love that card. When you get a jitte online turn 3, most decks just scoop.
I need to test more, but I 3 Mox Opal could be better just because drawing multiples is just an absolute bummer. However there are games when I don't have one and when I topdeck one it lets me do a surprise turn 2 Master, or Plating+equip, or turn 3 tezzeret. I think I agree overall to cutting down to 3 AEther Vial and keeping the 4 Mox. 4 Mox is better game 2-3 because they like to use their Ancient Grudges on our manabase :(.
I definitely think we shouldn't cut any more creatures. My list is running 19, and generally I have found that when this deck loses, it is because it runs out of creatures.
Myr Superion is not great in this deck because we NEED an Aether Vial to cast it, otherwise it is a dead card.
There is a 1/1 flying lifelink artifact creature for 1 colorless and 1 Black/pay 2 life mana that is ok I suppose. Otherwise, nothing really jumped out at me. I could see playing Hex parasite though.
I was talking specifically about Mono-White D&T. Green is a better MU because they have fewer tricks but larger creatures (despite Qasali Pridemage).
I would like to, really. However it will take me a while to assemble the deck ( I don't own the Mox Opals or Tezzeret ). The rest of it is pretty easy/inexpensive to put together. I am aiming for an SCG event in June :).
I just went through a string of pretty bad losses with the deck, so I have been trying to figure out some more radical changes. I cut Thirst for Knowledge and put in 2 Vendilion Clique. It is a nice card to have in conjunction with Tidehollow Sculler to pick apart the opponent's hand, but overall it has been pretty mediocre.
As far as Reanimator goes, I think we're just screwed unless we draw that early crucial Crypt/Relic.
Right now my board looks like
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Steel Sabotage
2 Annul
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Perish
One thing I have been noticing about this deck is that against removal-heavy decks, it is easy to run out of threats. 75% of games are won with an Etched Champion wielding a Cranial Plating simply because it is almost invincible. The rest of the games are won with Either a Tezzeret, or a fast Master of Etherium.
As far as match-ups go, I have encountered a few problematic ones while testing. Mono-W Death and Taxes is a whore of a match-up. They have a lot of tricks with targeted permanent removal and STP/PTE, not to mention all the bouncing tricks with Flickerwisp/Stonecloaker. The only way to beat them game 1 is to get a Plating on a Etched Champion or an early Tezzeret (since they can take a while to get their aggro online). Post-board, the match-up is nigh unwinnable as they bring in various artifact-hate cards, namely Pithing Needle/Kataki/hate.
Another bad one can be The Gate or mono-black. They usually have Innocent Blood/Gatekeeper of Malakir to make us sac our few creatures ( bye-bye Etched Champion ), and discard to remove our other threats. Post board they bring in Null Rod and I have even seen a Nevinyrral's Disk :'(. This could easily be one of our worst matchups, and I am not sure what to do about it.
However, the more popular decks such as the blue aggro variants (Bant, Countertop, Merfolk, etc) are really quite favorable.
Dredge is not so good of a matchup, and Combo isn't game 1, but improves after sideboarding.
I just had an elves combo player scoop to me because I had a Vedalken Certrarch to tap down his 1 Gaea's Cradle every turn (Phyrexian revoker goes a long way in the elves matchup).
I am only playing 1 Jitte, 4 cranial plating because I topdeck like a pro (and because in most cases I find cranial plating strictly better, especially when I have an etched champion). Time after time, Aether Vial is the best card in the deck. I win so many matches having instant-speed Prevoker, Champion, and Master. Sculler hasn't really won games for me - he just always ends up the target for removal, as does Master. Etched champion is the MVP.
Something is still not right with the deck, and I can't decide whether it is the stupid MWS shuffling system or the deck. I think I need to put this together and start playing in real life with it.
About the Ancient Tomb/Chalice possibilities, I definitely don't think it belongs in this deck specifically. But I am glad the other thread popped up with it in a more aggro-ish perspective. Tomb/Chalice seems cumbersome in the extreme to try and fit in this build.
I don't think any of the cards leaked from New Phyrexia so far belong in the maindeck here. The Spellspitter is a good card and has some good possibilities in the sideboard to be boarded in against removal-heavy decks playing STP/Doom Blade/smother/ghastly demise etc. He seems awfully conditional though, and without a vial active to slap him into play, he can be played around. But I will definitely try him out as a 2-of once the set becomes legal.
Usually against Standstill they dropped it turn 2 when I didn't have a vial. They won't play a standstill if you have an active vial anyways. Their pithing needles can shut us down. I may have just caught Dreadstill with a bunch of very good draws, but I think the matchup is not so simple because they have more counter magic and usually STP to back up their threats.
Also, I am still not sold on replacing Ornithopter - it significantly slows the deck innot having additional turn 1 plays - namely having a turn 1 ornithopter, mox, land, plating
Well our current lists aren't playing Ornithopter, Memnite, or Frogmite, I'm afraid.
I agree that I like the Scullers, and if we're to keep them, we definitely need 4 City of Brass.
I just played four matches against Dreadstill, and I have to say this is a pretty terrible matchup. I won maybe 3 games in the 4 matches, although I made some play mistakes, I don't think that it is winnable. Even post board, bringing in 2 Annul and 3 Steel Sabotage really doesn't improve anything.
One game was won on the back of a Tezzeret making a 5/5, and tapping down their one blocker with a Cetrarch. I think all my games were won using a Cetrarch to tap blockers and getting through with a Cranial Plating or something. However, their ability to tutor up a Needle on our Tezzeret or aether vials is crippling. We also don't have any game 1 answers to a dreadnought except maybe making one of our guys big enough, which is difficult to do through their countermagic/STP. However, I must admit that I had pretty rotten luck with landscrew.
I would also put the Goblins matchup at around 50/50. Either we have an answer to T1 Lackey or we get overrun with creatures.