@i-never-smile
So the deck relies on tutoring for specific answers? Very old school. I personally played two Diabolic Tutors in my deck back when UB Control was big (for "five" Mind Sludges).
Anyhow, what if you're put up against aggro? In my experience, 3 Black Sun's Zenith is not enough to answer the raw speed that some decks in this metagame have. And Consume the Meek is very slow; I personally do not find many reasons to bring it in anymore. Ratchet Bomb and Marsh Casualties have been much more successful. =\
@Particleman
Really man... I think we've gone over this before: We are not crafting decks with your perverse Leyline-filled metagame in mind. -_-"
I recently have been looking to go back into more traditional control. Gatekeeper and GFTT are not as relevant as they used to be, and Persecutor can be replaced by Obliterator. =\
Basically, the idea is to control the board using Zenith and Bomb while resolving a Mind Sludge or Grave Titan with the assistance of 7 disruption spells. Obliterator serves as midgame pressure; it and Rager really work well with Vat, though it's a bit clunky against Cawblade; if only Rager could fly...maybe I should try Specter instead...sigh, then again, Specter cannot stop a Hawk with Sword--fortunately, Inquisition, Duress, and Bomb can keep Sword down. Lashwrithe serves as a creature and, later on, a threat multiplier. (Zombies and Rager can kill.)
Anyhow, still wondering if I want Edges. This deck has a lot of Swamps-matter cards.
Playing control is built upon the principle of winning by gaining a material advantage (also known as card advantage) and grinding the opponent out via attrition. This doesn't always have to be the way that games are won, but it's the definition of a control deck. In order to produce card advantage, you have to have card advantage spells in your deck, you have to draw them, and you have to resolve them.
A broader definition of a control deck is one that limits the number of options that an opponent has relative to your own.
Card advantage is usually a common method of obtaining a material advantage, but disruption and card quality form the foundation of many control decks as well. (Understand that I am not knocking card advantage, just that not every control deck is successful because it is solely built upon it. Mindlessly pursuing it can be a bad strategy--especially if your deck does not have any blue in it, as blue is typically the color that gets the CA goodies.)
Anyhow, what's your list? The aggro-control variant is alright, but it's not as consistent as I would like it to be.
My problem with Hammer of Ruin is that it takes up your 2nd or 3rd turn to play it, and doesn't add anything to your board. Then turn 4 you drop your guy, then turn 5 you equip and swing. This takes up nearly half of your mana again on turn 5. Or, imo, the better play is to drop a big guy on 4 and then on 5, play and equip taking up your entire turn 5. All of this, just to remove a single piece of equipment from the opponent. And don't forget, that they can search up another sword. Most importantly though, Batterskull can play around this. Too much effort for too little payoff IMO, when we could just play a sweeper like Consume the Meek on turn 5, and be done with the Hawks and Mystics.
I think another problem with Hammer of Ruin is that you are trying to answer 1 equipment with 3-4 of your own. Or at least I assume you'll run that many so that you can see at least 1 per game vs. CawBlade.
I don't get why you guys aren't just running Tumble Magnets. They actually solve the problem of swords and force the opponent to overcommit, setting us up to sweep the board. I mean killing creatures is the thing we are best at, and Magnets help us reach that goal. Adding in a couple of Contagion Clasps as well really push the defensive capability of the deck, effectively locking down any 1 creature from attacking. Add in a little bit of Infect, and all of a sudden you have a win condition as well.
Leaden Myr, okay, I get that he ramps, but I still don't feel that the card is worth that. Lotus Cobra is a completely different kind of Ramp. Cobra can jump up 3+ mana in a single turn, while Myr bump 1 mana. Also, Cobra has 2 power, which means that when the Cobra is done ramping for the turn, you can start swinging with him.
What you say about Hammer is true. But keep in mind that it pretty much crushes a deck that depends on equipment. Also, once you play your beater, what else are you going to do? You really do not do much on turn five other than attack and maybe play a disruption or removal spell.
Magnet is definitely a great card.
Leaden Myr achieves the same goals as Lotus Cobra though. You can get your turn three Obliterator, they get their turn three (usually four) Primeval Titan. The only difference is that green specializes in mana production. Black, on the other hand, has hand disruption and removal.
Also, I agree that Surgical Extraction seems a bit too circumstantial.
@Archie
I also dislike Life's Finale, but I think Leaden Myr and Hammer of Ruin definitely have places in our decks. Myr allows you to ramp into turn three Obliterator and Percy or Zenith for 2. Hammer is a nice bit of tech to keep Caw-Blade off its aggro win conditions.
Also, your arguments are extremely unfair. Myr is obviously not used as a wall, you might as well tell Titan Ramp to not run Lotus Cobra because it cannot block a Batterskull. Hammer connects often due to the fact that virtually all of our beaters have Trample. Also, the infinite Germ tokens and multiple birds can be stopped or greatly hindered through the use of disruption spells.
Also, I'm going to have to agree with Thought-About-Writing.
-3 Ichor Rats
+3 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
-OR-
+3 Phyrexian Vatmother
I've had good experiences with Vatmothers in particular when I played MBC Proliferate for awhile. These two creatures hit harder and are tougher to remove than some Rats.
MBC is not going to look like UBC no matter how you try to build the deck. An absence of permission makes control play very differently and MBC has no real permission available to it.
The way MBC controls is either by fast early plays that drive the opponent before it into decisions they don't usually prefer to make, like playing cards out of hand before the optimal time in fear of discard, or by creating intense predicaments for the opponent in the midgame, as with Mimic Vat, and hoping they don't have answers at hand.
The fast proactive control attempts are likely the best because of the absence of permission and the fact that the midgame predicaments in this meta are fairly conditional in nature.
The list I posted above is not MBA. It's actually very controlling in nature, it's just proactively controlling, using targeted discard and things like Viscera Seer and Bloodghast to give the opponent no good early options. Then the hammer comes down with either of the finishers or Lashwrithe.
QFT. Keep in mind that blue control is not the only type of control. MBC has always resembled MBA Midrange, only now moreso with Obliterator and Lashwrithe.
The point of running a control deck is to control. The best way to control is proactively, before your opponent has had the opportunity to get setup. Reactive play is also a part of control, however it is less controlling than proactive play because it allows the opponent the maximum opportunity to interact in the process. They get to play their stuff and then interact with your responses.
CawBlade is a strongly controlling list that makes most of it's advantage on proactive plays. SFM to get a sword, hawks beget more hawks and Jace gives them card advantage or board position. They tap out to do all of those things proactively unless they smell a counter in the offing.
RUG is a strongly controlling list that proactively taps out to drop Lotus Cobra, Oracle of Muldaya and Jace as soon as possible, again just worrying about opposing counters.
Reactive MBC is the weakest form in general and in particular it is very weak in this meta.
Yes. Control is not only about being reactive or proactive. It is about controlling the number of options an opponent has while maximizing the number of options you have. Permission does this because you can choose what cards the opponent can play. Removal does this because you can choose what creature remain on the board. Card advantage and quality improves access to your deck. And so on and so forth. In contrast, aggro simply does not care and its goal is to reduce the enemy life total to zero ASAP; all of the considerations in control take a backseat to that goal.
MBC will increasingly look to be aggro in NPH, simply because we have so many great creatures and equipment pieces. Backed by a fantastic suite of removal and disruption, I really think that the deck, which has been tier two for awhile, might make that break into tier one.
Anyhow, aside from Protection from Black, I fail to see how Sword is better than a Hammer, given how big a role equipment plays in Caw-Blade.
I'm really curious to see how this works. Hammer of Ruin seems like such a "Meh" card. Yet, it actually may be our best option in the coming meta with SoFaF and Batterskull running rampant. If only it was 1 to dop and 1 to equip instead of 2 and 2!
It's four mana. If you can play an Obliterator and Persecutor, you can play a Hammer of Ruin and equip it to smash an equipment the next turn. They can't even chump block to stop it because of Trample (and even if they have a Titan, Obliterator will obliterate 6 permanents).
I think after NPH we'll be more worried about batterskull as a staple in stoneforge-based decks, adding that to the already existing equipments that put us between the wall and the sword, i think duress will be a 4-of to deal with that kind of threats.
Or, as stated before, MD Hammer of Ruin. 2 or 3 ought to do it. It's surprisingly effective.
@forgedinhell
Life's Finale is pretty expensive for removal. We probably will not have six mana in as timely a manner as Valakut. Indeed, I think that the best way of beating Valakut is to be proactive. Hand disruption and Mimic Vat is a house in this matchup.
Beast Within is going to be a pain though. We will have to prioritize removing it. Aside form that, they have no easy ways to stop Obliterator and Persecutor without suffering greatly. =\
But you forget the things hexmage can do, first strike can hold off early aggression and be a decent first striking canadate for lashwrite while the parasite can only block or attack once...being blocked. i like what your saying about his reuseablity and the fact he can do so much. I just don't like that it's such a mana sink/life loss to do these things while one hex mage can do any of the following(albeit only once) and be a decent attacking creature at the same time tell me what you think
Well, unless you're against an aggro deck, you shouldn't play your Hexmage immediately. And it is true that you can equip the Hexmage with Lashwrithe, but you ought not be using Hexmage for that purpose; it's reason for occupying slots is first and foremost to deal with Planeswalkers.
I personally would not MD Parasite. It's often the case where your other creatures can handle most game one threats. It's only when you see a dependence on cards like Magnet and Clasp or Jace to stall your aggro that you side Parasite in. Hexmage has become increasingly obsolescent of late because it is more and more common to see Magnet, which is many decks' go-to answer to deal with Caw-Blade. Parasite is a card that works around the multiple-target issue and supports your attackers by deterring more Planeswalker drops; it's persistence is magnified by the fact that neither Jace nor Gideon can remove it (assuming that you aren't swinging for one). Hexmage cannot do this nearly as well as Parasite, and this is what I feel is the greatest shortcoming: your opponents will have reusable stall, but you will not have reusable removal.
Has anyone considered boarding or main decking a few Hammer of Ruin to help beat Caw-Blade. I'm thinking about running a build very much like Taishaku's, with 4 Obliterators and 3-4 Percys, which would give us 7-8 trampling bodies to put the hammer on and kill any and all swords or other troublesome equips that hit play. The Hammer could also be thrown onto a Myr or a Gatekeeper if the opportunity arises to get in with one of them.
The thing about Caw-Blade is that it's a resilient deck that can quickly change between aggro and control set ups. I mean, keep in mind that the original Caw-Blade didn't even bother with Mystic and equipment (back then, it was Caw-Go). Just lots of removal and four Hawks to chump block.
But I would definitely consider Hammer as a sideboard card. It would force them to depend on Planeswalkers (which Obliterator and Percy sill destroy).
There seems to be a lot of Hex Parasite v.s. Vampire Hexmage discussion here. Why not run both? Either a 2/2 split or 3 Hexmage 2 Hex parasite. I'd rather see Hexmage early on, but topdecking a parasite late game could be devastating.
If we were only dealing with Planeswalkers, sure. But these days, people are packing Magnet to deal with Caw-Blade.
We should all be running 2-4 Duress maindeck anyway. Right now, Batterskull is a menace.
Why no Black Sun's Zenith? Is it because it will kill your little dudes, like Leaden Myr, too? Or is it because with your deck leaning more towards MBA that it no longer needs a board wipe?
Yeah. Parasite and Myr will die to it. =\
I think I might put Marsh Casualties in the sideboard.
@Xindell
So I was going to type a long post in response to this. But I read it and realized just how shortsighted your position is. While you react with Hexmage against better control decks, I will pressure. You will lose, and I will win. That really is all there is to it.
There are so many things that Parasite can do that Hexmage cannot. He can remove a Tumble Magnet and still fend off Planeswalkers. He can come in and remove -1/-1 counters from your creatures. And he can retain usability after doing so.
With a Stoneforge Mystic...
So the deck relies on tutoring for specific answers? Very old school. I personally played two Diabolic Tutors in my deck back when UB Control was big (for "five" Mind Sludges).
Anyhow, what if you're put up against aggro? In my experience, 3 Black Sun's Zenith is not enough to answer the raw speed that some decks in this metagame have. And Consume the Meek is very slow; I personally do not find many reasons to bring it in anymore. Ratchet Bomb and Marsh Casualties have been much more successful. =\
@Particleman
Really man... I think we've gone over this before: We are not crafting decks with your perverse Leyline-filled metagame in mind. -_-"
25 Swamp
Creatures - 10
3 Phyrexian Rager
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Grave Titan
Spells - 16
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
3 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Sign in Blood
3 Mind Sludge
3 Mimic Vat
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Lashwrithe
3 Disfigure
3 Hex Parasite
2 Marsh Casualties
4 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Precursor Golem
I recently have been looking to go back into more traditional control. Gatekeeper and GFTT are not as relevant as they used to be, and Persecutor can be replaced by Obliterator. =\
Basically, the idea is to control the board using Zenith and Bomb while resolving a Mind Sludge or Grave Titan with the assistance of 7 disruption spells. Obliterator serves as midgame pressure; it and Rager really work well with Vat, though it's a bit clunky against Cawblade; if only Rager could fly...maybe I should try Specter instead...sigh, then again, Specter cannot stop a Hawk with Sword--fortunately, Inquisition, Duress, and Bomb can keep Sword down. Lashwrithe serves as a creature and, later on, a threat multiplier. (Zombies and Rager can kill.)
Anyhow, still wondering if I want Edges. This deck has a lot of Swamps-matter cards.
A broader definition of a control deck is one that limits the number of options that an opponent has relative to your own.
Card advantage is usually a common method of obtaining a material advantage, but disruption and card quality form the foundation of many control decks as well. (Understand that I am not knocking card advantage, just that not every control deck is successful because it is solely built upon it. Mindlessly pursuing it can be a bad strategy--especially if your deck does not have any blue in it, as blue is typically the color that gets the CA goodies.)
Anyhow, what's your list? The aggro-control variant is alright, but it's not as consistent as I would like it to be.
What you say about Hammer is true. But keep in mind that it pretty much crushes a deck that depends on equipment. Also, once you play your beater, what else are you going to do? You really do not do much on turn five other than attack and maybe play a disruption or removal spell.
Magnet is definitely a great card.
Leaden Myr achieves the same goals as Lotus Cobra though. You can get your turn three Obliterator, they get their turn three (usually four) Primeval Titan. The only difference is that green specializes in mana production. Black, on the other hand, has hand disruption and removal.
Also, I agree that Surgical Extraction seems a bit too circumstantial.
I also dislike Life's Finale, but I think Leaden Myr and Hammer of Ruin definitely have places in our decks. Myr allows you to ramp into turn three Obliterator and Percy or Zenith for 2. Hammer is a nice bit of tech to keep Caw-Blade off its aggro win conditions.
Also, your arguments are extremely unfair. Myr is obviously not used as a wall, you might as well tell Titan Ramp to not run Lotus Cobra because it cannot block a Batterskull. Hammer connects often due to the fact that virtually all of our beaters have Trample. Also, the infinite Germ tokens and multiple birds can be stopped or greatly hindered through the use of disruption spells.
Also, I'm going to have to agree with Thought-About-Writing.
-3 Ichor Rats
+3 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
-OR-
+3 Phyrexian Vatmother
I've had good experiences with Vatmothers in particular when I played MBC Proliferate for awhile. These two creatures hit harder and are tougher to remove than some Rats.
QFT. Keep in mind that blue control is not the only type of control. MBC has always resembled MBA Midrange, only now moreso with Obliterator and Lashwrithe.
I fail to see how running Sword is a proactive measure. If we want equipment, Lashwrithe is enough.
Yes. Control is not only about being reactive or proactive. It is about controlling the number of options an opponent has while maximizing the number of options you have. Permission does this because you can choose what cards the opponent can play. Removal does this because you can choose what creature remain on the board. Card advantage and quality improves access to your deck. And so on and so forth. In contrast, aggro simply does not care and its goal is to reduce the enemy life total to zero ASAP; all of the considerations in control take a backseat to that goal.
MBC will increasingly look to be aggro in NPH, simply because we have so many great creatures and equipment pieces. Backed by a fantastic suite of removal and disruption, I really think that the deck, which has been tier two for awhile, might make that break into tier one.
Anyhow, aside from Protection from Black, I fail to see how Sword is better than a Hammer, given how big a role equipment plays in Caw-Blade.
It's four mana. If you can play an Obliterator and Persecutor, you can play a Hammer of Ruin and equip it to smash an equipment the next turn. They can't even chump block to stop it because of Trample (and even if they have a Titan, Obliterator will obliterate 6 permanents).
Or, as stated before, MD Hammer of Ruin. 2 or 3 ought to do it. It's surprisingly effective.
Life's Finale is pretty expensive for removal. We probably will not have six mana in as timely a manner as Valakut. Indeed, I think that the best way of beating Valakut is to be proactive. Hand disruption and Mimic Vat is a house in this matchup.
Beast Within is going to be a pain though. We will have to prioritize removing it. Aside form that, they have no easy ways to stop Obliterator and Persecutor without suffering greatly. =\
Valakut, by far. We can handle aggro pretty well. Heck, we have access to some of the best removal in the metagame.
Well, unless you're against an aggro deck, you shouldn't play your Hexmage immediately. And it is true that you can equip the Hexmage with Lashwrithe, but you ought not be using Hexmage for that purpose; it's reason for occupying slots is first and foremost to deal with Planeswalkers.
I personally would not MD Parasite. It's often the case where your other creatures can handle most game one threats. It's only when you see a dependence on cards like Magnet and Clasp or Jace to stall your aggro that you side Parasite in. Hexmage has become increasingly obsolescent of late because it is more and more common to see Magnet, which is many decks' go-to answer to deal with Caw-Blade. Parasite is a card that works around the multiple-target issue and supports your attackers by deterring more Planeswalker drops; it's persistence is magnified by the fact that neither Jace nor Gideon can remove it (assuming that you aren't swinging for one). Hexmage cannot do this nearly as well as Parasite, and this is what I feel is the greatest shortcoming: your opponents will have reusable stall, but you will not have reusable removal.
The thing about Caw-Blade is that it's a resilient deck that can quickly change between aggro and control set ups. I mean, keep in mind that the original Caw-Blade didn't even bother with Mystic and equipment (back then, it was Caw-Go). Just lots of removal and four Hawks to chump block.
But I would definitely consider Hammer as a sideboard card. It would force them to depend on Planeswalkers (which Obliterator and Percy sill destroy).
If we were only dealing with Planeswalkers, sure. But these days, people are packing Magnet to deal with Caw-Blade.
We should all be running 2-4 Duress maindeck anyway. Right now, Batterskull is a menace.
I actually really like the idea. But I feel that we would need to see how the metagame develops before trying something like this.
Yeah. Parasite and Myr will die to it. =\
I think I might put Marsh Casualties in the sideboard.
@Xindell
So I was going to type a long post in response to this. But I read it and realized just how shortsighted your position is. While you react with Hexmage against better control decks, I will pressure. You will lose, and I will win. That really is all there is to it.
There are so many things that Parasite can do that Hexmage cannot. He can remove a Tumble Magnet and still fend off Planeswalkers. He can come in and remove -1/-1 counters from your creatures. And he can retain usability after doing so.