both options can be made to work within the rules of Commander
so special ruling is needed, esp. in the case of a wishboard because.
as someone stated before in unsanctioned games you can get the card from anywhere not just your sideboard. Also being able to grab anything not just cards that fit your normal commander deckbuilding rules.
Wishboards do have something to do with the 100 card rule just as a regular sideboard has to do something with the deckbuilding rule. A deck must have a minimum of 60 Cards adn may have a sideboard of 0 to 15 cards. Your normal deck isnt just your deck its your deck + SB. So the same appklies to commander if you do a wishboard the new deck construction rule is 100 + 0- max wishboard size. So if you are advocationg for a wishboard you are breaking the 100 card deckbuilding rule and making it a 100 + WB rule.
exactly how they are supposed to
Thats the problem with wishes They are not working how they are supposed to in sanctioned events (Wotc uses a format specific errata as in only sideboard cards) and the RC want to use the same errata whilst having no sideboard.
Why do you want it on the banlist if they don't allow for search all though? You said Fractured Powerstone works as intended but it does not its a special errata for the card that says "In non-Planechase games, Fractured Powerstone’s second ability will have no effect. " because if it works as intended you should be able to roll the planar die anyways since that is exactly what the card says.
Even while though i disagree with him, he did state the "benefits" of doing so, he even makes the distinction of if you don't do it with any benefit then it is not tactical scooping.
I agree that the psychological and in the current game things are different but if you want to use EVERY edge you can that doesn't matter since overall you will most likely loose more than you gain.
I also agree that sometimes its best to not attack /kill someone but that is "usually" not because of a tac scoop threat, because if it were the psycological aspect will be "most likely" the death of that player.
But I think we are at the point where we all put our opinions forth and start to repeat ourselves more and more.
Either Wishes are fine and should be legal to work how they work, or they're not and they should be banned. There's no middle ground here.
The Problem with that approach is the cards that do more than just wish and that part is fine. You wouldn't wanna ban Fractured Powerstone just because the second ability has no effect , same with Mastermind's Acquisition or Research // Development. So a blanket ban is undesirable. And a specific ban on those who only wish is the single card errata on those that don't. Banning all is only a "clean" solution if you do the same for Fractured Powerstone, draft matters cards.
And even tough I am currently building a Rat colony deck I think that too is something that shouldn't be able to be something that can be done universally and should stay in local playgroups.
I think there are way to many planeswalkers on the watchlist that are not even remotely problematic compared to currently existing generals.
It is just the watchlist so I think if they really do nothing you can remove them, better save than sorry.
Even tough I wouldn't like the change for allowing pw's in general (my reasons for that are in the threat linked by OP). I will ask my playgroup if we can play one or 2 nights with that rule active as I agree with Onerings Statement
I encourage playgroups who want to test this to do so, and this thread is at least a well thought out starting point. Arguing about it is beating a dead horse, and I strongly doubt that OPs experiment is going to uncover anything the RC or CAG won't, but it CAN help give some extra perspective, and it CAN help hammer out the best practices for playgroups who want to take advantage of rule 0 to allow PW commanders (that is, what steps should be taken to make the change work the best that it can).
And seeing that my Playgroup already has Themed weeks sometimes might as well try PW's out. It might help those who want to housrule it if many people tried it before and gather best practices.
"Because asking if you can use a wish [Battle of wits] for its actual intended purpose"
.
If you are on the wishboard team then this is not it's actual intended purpose. If you are on the Any card team you are "indirectly" saying you are against the intended purpose of some commander rules. (Singleton , Exactly 100 cards (that is also broken with wishboards) , color Identity, Banned cards)
So arguing from that point of intended purpose seems irrelevant to me because by going for one intended purpose you will break the other and vice versa.
And while I personally wouldn't mind a 115 card format I do belive breaking rules that are for an intended purpose is seen worse than breaking a cards intended purpose, as that happens all the time in commander and regular magic anyways. The whole in this case is more important than the part.
So changing that for everyone is a bit steep. It's also unfair to do that just for wishes if you are allowed to get anything you essentially are breaking the 100 card rule of the format just for wishes, but I can't do the same If I want to play battle of wits even though it works as intended and by doing that it has no functionality.
What's the downsides? I mean, if people get mad at you for doing it, then there's that - but otherwise you're usually only doing it in circumstances where you'd be guaranteed dead otherwise. There's literally nothing to lose.
That is one good downside IMO. You see the people in here who are vehemently against it and If you have such people in your group you basically lowered your chance of winning future games.
And even those who arent vehemently against it will become vary if you win one or two games after getting a tac scoop win, and will be more likely to kill you together. (At least in my opinion, as a heavy comeback win is something people tend to remember thus skewing threat assesment) And even if you don't win, everyone who gets out before you will probably remember that as well especially if one of those people is the one who "spared" you.
So if you win its more of a won the battle but lost the war kinda scenario, and if you loose doing that (which in many cases is still likely) you gained nothing.
EDIT:
Magic is a game of calculated risks. Even if there's a strong chance for you to recover and win, if losing triggers to your scoop hurts the attacker's chances to win more than leaving you alive, then it's correct for them to leave you alive. Depending on the circumstances, it could theoretically be correct for someone to leave you alive even if you have a 90% chance to win.
True magic is a game of calculated risks but in such an scenario you'd think the other people will chime in and kill him anyways as for them it gives them a higher chance of wining, same with sth like a crackback truce.
Agreed, it is rather normal for people who find something should be done differently to speak up.
And since this was mostly done civilied and with reasoned arguments this can give great feedback even though we are not "everyone".
It’s true that this could be an issue, but we won’t know until we try. My personal prediction is that it would be identical to or even faster than searching a library.
From Personal Expierience from playing with wishes casually (no wishboard) It takes a long time for someone to fetch stuff up.
(This anectdote was before commander and was when I Kitchen tabled judgment with a friend when we were younger (around 10 or 11) this might have affected the speed)
These dozen cards with a sui generis effect have every right reason to be part of the game and are hence deserving of a short list of brief clarifications.
Had to look up sui generis
But these arend the only ones who are a group in and of itself but if you add them they would be the only ones with their own ruling.
The other ones (draft matters,unlimited numbers,ante, un-sets) are either banned or no special ruling is given to them. They either just don't fully work or work as intended.
That could be an argument for both making them work as intended (Get anything of the thing you could wish for irregardles of color restrictions etc)
or putting them on the banlist. But both of those have drawbacks that the RC seem to not like.
The other two options (wishboard and "do nothing") have less drawbacks in my opinion.
The biggest downside to wishboards IMO is that the format becomes a 115 Card format as there is hardly a reason to not play wishes. (At least thats how it turned out in my old playgroup) I personally do not mind that but for some people thats a turnoff.
The biggest downside to "do nothing" is that 7 more cards do nothing, and with the amount of available cards i think that is hardly a downside.
Radha player needs 2 more mana than he has to eliminate player C. Radha has me dead to rights, and a Neheb to get the mana he needs post combat. Radha cannot safely attack player C with any creature, including his Neheb, but I have no blocks that prevent him from killing me if he swings out.
I inform him I'll scoop before damage if he swings at me for lethal. Ultimately, he attacks me with Neheb and nothing else. I survive, he kills player C, and the game continues, giving me a chance at coming back. I did not ultimately win the game, but the threat of concession resulted in me not being killed that turn, exactly as described.
And he didn't kill you then but seemingly could kill you anyways (Don't know since I wasn't there) so you gained nothing but a turn. If its easier for him to let you live because he could kill you irregardles of what you do but not so much player C the only thing you gained is one turn. If he couldn't do that and looses to you he wouldnt have gained anything if he killed you and died to C he wouldnt have gained anything. To me that still looks like barely an increase in the tac scoopers win percentage. I get it, it is not 0 but it is below 1%, and it gets (presumably) smaller everytime you pull it of in the same group as people will become vary of keeping you alive (not just the guy you tac. scoop on but your other opponents as well)
As I said before I do not mind tac scooping i just think the downsides outweigh the benefits.
Any debate involves positing opposing viewpoints but I find this particular list to be subjective to the point of uselessness. The truth is, many people have been using wishboards in EDH for years and I rarely if ever see discussion of it in places like these forums. So it can’t be causing that much trouble.
That alone argues in favor of making them legal by default, in my opinion.
If someone had accurate numbers that would become a lot easier. But as someone already said since we dont have the numbers its all speculation of what the majority wants. I Personally wouldn't mind wishboards but I do see the multiple points brought up against it, and since I think the gains are minimal and not clear. I'd rather have them not work universally.
Wizards is solely in control of all MtG formats it chooses to be. In the case of EDH, it rebranded it Commander and allowed the RC to continue to maintain the rules because it serves their purpose. If the RC ever made a decision that WotC perceived to be against their own interests, they’d yank that authority in no time.
While technically correct in a legal sense, If wizards change the Commander rules to differ from the RC ones and people like the RC ones better they would still be playing the RC rules anyway, as for stuff like unsanctioned/kitchentable play neither has the authority people play what they like.
The truth is, many people have been using wishboards in EDH for years and I rarely if ever see discussion of it in places like these forums. So it can’t be causing that much trouble.
That alone argues in favor of making them legal by default, in my opinion.
I too used to be in a group with wishboards, and I actually wouldnt mind if this became the standard but that argument alone doesn't say much. Lots of people still play with cards that are on the banlist and have no problem with it should we now all do that? I don't think so. It is always easier to do stuff in Individual groups than make it a reality for everyone.
The tactical part is in threatening to scoop to hurt your killer, thus potentially causing them to not kill you and giving you a chance to win.
The odds of that are low to start with im most instances (as you stated) and would only get smaller (at least in my playgroup) as that threaten to scoop implies to me (the player who your threatening) and the other players (the ones that might benefit) that you are still a threat to be recognized and its more likely that 1. I kill you and get a deal with the others for doing so. 2. If I don't kill you the other people still know that you are a threat and will likely kill you. 3.So to not loose to each other they will kill you together. 4. Keep you alive with the ability to kill you any instant.
So I get why its tactical and see why you don't deal with it but even if you were besides the ire of someone else you don't really get much out of it.
Even though I Personally wouldn't like to play in Fenrirs Group (I really don't like active Kingmaking) there is no reason to attack him (or his way of doing things) personally if you are not part of his group. "Closed" Groups can do what they want and if everyones happy why not.
Also for me this is only an issue in pick up groups or "open groups" where houseruling is difficult due to ever changing group constellations. And In those I wish people would refrain from "speed scooping".
Yeah but consecrated sphinx cant be your commander and can be answered easier and pw's are easier to defend. Again Since commander is mainly based on creatures the answers to those are plentyful and since you can block for your pws that heps defend it to.
And the problem is that it is the #1 way to get rid of pw's as it is inefficient and alot of time just not possible to do when needed. Im not disregarding the way I am saying there need to be better ways.
As for Purphoros: No Mono black card that deals with it as is no mono black card for any enchantment. If It turn into a creature though there are plenty of answers. Similar to Red.
Green has answers white has answers and blue has answers. And I agree all in all there are not many answers for purhoros excluding certain scenarios just as I think there aren't enough for PW's.
To reiterate I don't think most PW's planeswalkers are a problem. I do think the majority would be fine powerlevel wise, but I do think most dont add anything new to the table. I think more people would dislike the change than like it, thus making the format worse for more people than better.
I do think better PW removal would help as it is a hard permanent type to get rid of efficiently, making it so that people feel they cant do much against them. And for the Problematic one's that holds true as their Incremental advantage and self protection drains the other players resources more than yours. The (IMO) unproblematic ones that do bring new stuff to the table are to few to make a change globally.
I do think there should be a global testrun for a couple of reasons.
1. To see how numbers in format popularity go up/down. (If the potential growth in players that start because of this is bigger than the people who will quit because of this)
2. To see how much is added gameplay wise due to that (New types of decks, decks getting played less, How many different PWs will see play etc. )
3. To Help some playgroups to decide if they want to play witn PW commanders and to houserule if it doesn't happen after the test.
4. For the RC to make a sound desicion based on 1 and 2, (which IMO will be a no, but without the numbers alot is just speculation)
It doesn't matter if the cards exist, are people running them? Are they playable when purphoros isn't at the table?
Because almost every deck out there runs a myriad of ways to interact with a planeswalker. Any creatures, bounce, burn, planeswalker removal and/or permanent removal will all make it much harder to execute a planeswalker plan.
That holds true for Planeswalker removal as well, and bounce and permanent removal (in the form of exile) all work against purph too.
Burn is also rarely played.
For Example Out of the top 100 played Cards on edhrec(Anecdotal evidence since stuff like that is subject to change if PW's would be allowed still)
One Burnspell (Boros Charm) one bouncespell (Cyclonic Rift). 15 Spotremoval+Counter (Which helps to get rid of Regular commanders AND if you allow PWs as commanders help protect those) 6,5 Massremovals out of which only one has the posibillity to kill pws, yet they can regularly kill most regular commanders and protect PW ones.
10 Things thet get rid of pw's.
10 things that get rid of purphoros, As an Enchantment.
(+4 if it is a creature which most purph decks tend to not let happen)
Yes Attacking PW's is a thing you can do but most decks run removal for creatures already, most decks run creatures of their own to block so that is not a reliable/effortless answer to pw's, in addition to that a lot of pw's have abilities to protect themselves too (esp. From Creatures) so by the time your opponents can kill your PW you should be able to recast him rather easily, even if you dont get to the ultimate alot of the incremental value of the good ones is pretty strong. Loot/Rummage for two per turn by plussing Daretti or Dack is a bit better that phyrexian arena if you are not graveyard based and if you are its insanely better than phyrexian arena.
there are literally more ways to get rid of purphoros than planeswalkers unconditionally, and purphoros is already a problem for alot of groups.
Edit: Not true if Purphoros isn't a creature but point still stands as lack of removal is to be considered.
I agree Liliana of the dark realm is one of the ones I wouldn't see as problematic my problematic list would be shorter in general, but my list of interesting (read new/unique ) build arounds would also be shorter by alot.
as someone stated before in unsanctioned games you can get the card from anywhere not just your sideboard. Also being able to grab anything not just cards that fit your normal commander deckbuilding rules.
Wishboards do have something to do with the 100 card rule just as a regular sideboard has to do something with the deckbuilding rule. A deck must have a minimum of 60 Cards adn may have a sideboard of 0 to 15 cards. Your normal deck isnt just your deck its your deck + SB. So the same appklies to commander if you do a wishboard the new deck construction rule is 100 + 0- max wishboard size. So if you are advocationg for a wishboard you are breaking the 100 card deckbuilding rule and making it a 100 + WB rule.
Thats the problem with wishes They are not working how they are supposed to in sanctioned events (Wotc uses a format specific errata as in only sideboard cards) and the RC want to use the same errata whilst having no sideboard.
Why do you want it on the banlist if they don't allow for search all though? You said Fractured Powerstone works as intended but it does not its a special errata for the card that says "In non-Planechase games, Fractured Powerstone’s second ability will have no effect. " because if it works as intended you should be able to roll the planar die anyways since that is exactly what the card says.
I agree that the psychological and in the current game things are different but if you want to use EVERY edge you can that doesn't matter since overall you will most likely loose more than you gain.
I also agree that sometimes its best to not attack /kill someone but that is "usually" not because of a tac scoop threat, because if it were the psycological aspect will be "most likely" the death of that player.
But I think we are at the point where we all put our opinions forth and start to repeat ourselves more and more.
The Problem with that approach is the cards that do more than just wish and that part is fine. You wouldn't wanna ban Fractured Powerstone just because the second ability has no effect , same with Mastermind's Acquisition or Research // Development. So a blanket ban is undesirable. And a specific ban on those who only wish is the single card errata on those that don't. Banning all is only a "clean" solution if you do the same for Fractured Powerstone, draft matters cards.
And even tough I am currently building a Rat colony deck I think that too is something that shouldn't be able to be something that can be done universally and should stay in local playgroups.
It is just the watchlist so I think if they really do nothing you can remove them, better save than sorry.
Even tough I wouldn't like the change for allowing pw's in general (my reasons for that are in the threat linked by OP). I will ask my playgroup if we can play one or 2 nights with that rule active as I agree with Onerings Statement
And seeing that my Playgroup already has Themed weeks sometimes might as well try PW's out. It might help those who want to housrule it if many people tried it before and gather best practices.
If you are on the wishboard team then this is not it's actual intended purpose. If you are on the Any card team you are "indirectly" saying you are against the intended purpose of some commander rules. (Singleton , Exactly 100 cards (that is also broken with wishboards) , color Identity, Banned cards)
So arguing from that point of intended purpose seems irrelevant to me because by going for one intended purpose you will break the other and vice versa.
And while I personally wouldn't mind a 115 card format I do belive breaking rules that are for an intended purpose is seen worse than breaking a cards intended purpose, as that happens all the time in commander and regular magic anyways. The whole in this case is more important than the part.
So changing that for everyone is a bit steep. It's also unfair to do that just for wishes if you are allowed to get anything you essentially are breaking the 100 card rule of the format just for wishes, but I can't do the same If I want to play battle of wits even though it works as intended and by doing that it has no functionality.
That is one good downside IMO. You see the people in here who are vehemently against it and If you have such people in your group you basically lowered your chance of winning future games.
And even those who arent vehemently against it will become vary if you win one or two games after getting a tac scoop win, and will be more likely to kill you together. (At least in my opinion, as a heavy comeback win is something people tend to remember thus skewing threat assesment) And even if you don't win, everyone who gets out before you will probably remember that as well especially if one of those people is the one who "spared" you.
So if you win its more of a won the battle but lost the war kinda scenario, and if you loose doing that (which in many cases is still likely) you gained nothing.
EDIT:
True magic is a game of calculated risks but in such an scenario you'd think the other people will chime in and kill him anyways as for them it gives them a higher chance of wining, same with sth like a crackback truce.
And since this was mostly done civilied and with reasoned arguments this can give great feedback even though we are not "everyone".
From Personal Expierience from playing with wishes casually (no wishboard) It takes a long time for someone to fetch stuff up.
(This anectdote was before commander and was when I Kitchen tabled judgment with a friend when we were younger (around 10 or 11) this might have affected the speed)
Had to look up sui generis
But these arend the only ones who are a group in and of itself but if you add them they would be the only ones with their own ruling.
The other ones (draft matters,unlimited numbers,ante, un-sets) are either banned or no special ruling is given to them. They either just don't fully work or work as intended.
That could be an argument for both making them work as intended (Get anything of the thing you could wish for irregardles of color restrictions etc)
or putting them on the banlist. But both of those have drawbacks that the RC seem to not like.
The other two options (wishboard and "do nothing") have less drawbacks in my opinion.
The biggest downside to wishboards IMO is that the format becomes a 115 Card format as there is hardly a reason to not play wishes. (At least thats how it turned out in my old playgroup) I personally do not mind that but for some people thats a turnoff.
The biggest downside to "do nothing" is that 7 more cards do nothing, and with the amount of available cards i think that is hardly a downside.
And he didn't kill you then but seemingly could kill you anyways (Don't know since I wasn't there) so you gained nothing but a turn. If its easier for him to let you live because he could kill you irregardles of what you do but not so much player C the only thing you gained is one turn. If he couldn't do that and looses to you he wouldnt have gained anything if he killed you and died to C he wouldnt have gained anything. To me that still looks like barely an increase in the tac scoopers win percentage. I get it, it is not 0 but it is below 1%, and it gets (presumably) smaller everytime you pull it of in the same group as people will become vary of keeping you alive (not just the guy you tac. scoop on but your other opponents as well)
As I said before I do not mind tac scooping i just think the downsides outweigh the benefits.
If someone had accurate numbers that would become a lot easier. But as someone already said since we dont have the numbers its all speculation of what the majority wants. I Personally wouldn't mind wishboards but I do see the multiple points brought up against it, and since I think the gains are minimal and not clear. I'd rather have them not work universally.
While technically correct in a legal sense, If wizards change the Commander rules to differ from the RC ones and people like the RC ones better they would still be playing the RC rules anyway, as for stuff like unsanctioned/kitchentable play neither has the authority people play what they like.
I too used to be in a group with wishboards, and I actually wouldnt mind if this became the standard but that argument alone doesn't say much. Lots of people still play with cards that are on the banlist and have no problem with it should we now all do that? I don't think so. It is always easier to do stuff in Individual groups than make it a reality for everyone.
The odds of that are low to start with im most instances (as you stated) and would only get smaller (at least in my playgroup) as that threaten to scoop implies to me (the player who your threatening) and the other players (the ones that might benefit) that you are still a threat to be recognized and its more likely that 1. I kill you and get a deal with the others for doing so. 2. If I don't kill you the other people still know that you are a threat and will likely kill you. 3.So to not loose to each other they will kill you together. 4. Keep you alive with the ability to kill you any instant.
So I get why its tactical and see why you don't deal with it but even if you were besides the ire of someone else you don't really get much out of it.
Even though I Personally wouldn't like to play in Fenrirs Group (I really don't like active Kingmaking) there is no reason to attack him (or his way of doing things) personally if you are not part of his group. "Closed" Groups can do what they want and if everyones happy why not.
Also for me this is only an issue in pick up groups or "open groups" where houseruling is difficult due to ever changing group constellations. And In those I wish people would refrain from "speed scooping".
And the problem is that it is the #1 way to get rid of pw's as it is inefficient and alot of time just not possible to do when needed. Im not disregarding the way I am saying there need to be better ways.
As for Purphoros: No Mono black card that deals with it as is no mono black card for any enchantment. If It turn into a creature though there are plenty of answers. Similar to Red.
Green has answers white has answers and blue has answers. And I agree all in all there are not many answers for purhoros excluding certain scenarios just as I think there aren't enough for PW's.
To reiterate I don't think most PW's planeswalkers are a problem. I do think the majority would be fine powerlevel wise, but I do think most dont add anything new to the table. I think more people would dislike the change than like it, thus making the format worse for more people than better.
I do think better PW removal would help as it is a hard permanent type to get rid of efficiently, making it so that people feel they cant do much against them. And for the Problematic one's that holds true as their Incremental advantage and self protection drains the other players resources more than yours. The (IMO) unproblematic ones that do bring new stuff to the table are to few to make a change globally.
I do think there should be a global testrun for a couple of reasons.
1. To see how numbers in format popularity go up/down. (If the potential growth in players that start because of this is bigger than the people who will quit because of this)
2. To see how much is added gameplay wise due to that (New types of decks, decks getting played less, How many different PWs will see play etc. )
3. To Help some playgroups to decide if they want to play witn PW commanders and to houserule if it doesn't happen after the test.
4. For the RC to make a sound desicion based on 1 and 2, (which IMO will be a no, but without the numbers alot is just speculation)
Scryfall advanced search tool is pretty usful for Stuff like that.
That holds true for Planeswalker removal as well, and bounce and permanent removal (in the form of exile) all work against purph too.
Burn is also rarely played.
For Example Out of the top 100 played Cards on edhrec(Anecdotal evidence since stuff like that is subject to change if PW's would be allowed still)
One Burnspell (Boros Charm) one bouncespell (Cyclonic Rift). 15 Spotremoval+Counter (Which helps to get rid of Regular commanders AND if you allow PWs as commanders help protect those) 6,5 Massremovals out of which only one has the posibillity to kill pws, yet they can regularly kill most regular commanders and protect PW ones.
10 Things thet get rid of pw's.
10 things that get rid of purphoros, As an Enchantment.
(+4 if it is a creature which most purph decks tend to not let happen)
Yes Attacking PW's is a thing you can do but most decks run removal for creatures already, most decks run creatures of their own to block so that is not a reliable/effortless answer to pw's, in addition to that a lot of pw's have abilities to protect themselves too (esp. From Creatures) so by the time your opponents can kill your PW you should be able to recast him rather easily, even if you dont get to the ultimate alot of the incremental value of the good ones is pretty strong. Loot/Rummage for two per turn by plussing Daretti or Dack is a bit better that phyrexian arena if you are not graveyard based and if you are its insanely better than phyrexian arena.
Edit: Not true if Purphoros isn't a creature but point still stands as lack of removal is to be considered.