Last week I played the deck for the first time. My meta was composed with Daretti, Meren, Atraxa and some others. I lost one game against a Daretti who combo-ed out and won one game.... I tried to keep to the tribal wolves idea, playing 25 wolf-related cards.
Conclusions ?
1. This deck is more than just casual, no tier 1 (but who cares), but lots of fun. Very good against creature decks.Overall really good !
2. Ramping needs a good mix of spells and creatures. It's very dangerous to trust only on small mana-elves (needed to play Wren's Run Packmaster, because they're so easily killed. Each game I had some manaproblems because of this, playing 37 lands ...
3. This commander is very good.
4. Cards that were especially good: Aura Shards, Parallel Lives, Elemental Bond, Kessig Cagebreakers.
5. Cards that did not do much and don't make the cut anymore: Silverfur Partisan, Selvala, Explorer Returned, Shalai, Voice of Plenty
What about you ?
Sadly due to national holiday stuff I won't be getting my preordered cards in until Tuesday, so at the earliest I'll be able to try the deck out during the next weekend.
Ramp and landbase are always something you have to tweak in those first few games. As far as mana-elves go, they are indeed a risk but the opposite side is you can potentially get a few explosive turns going. I purposely tried to keep my average CMC down as much as I could to help deal with the eventual wipe.
I haven't considered Selvala nor Shalai for my build so they are a bit harder to comment on. Silverfur Partisan is simply a build around card and if you don't plan on exploiting it's ability then yeah it can be replaced for something which has more effect immediately.
Paradox Engine could do some serious work with manaelves and -rocks. Nice inclusion.
I also very much like your inclusion of Marshal's Anthem. If any more pump is nescecary, this card looks very sweet in any stage of the game. In the very late game, it could be a potential boardwipe with Tolsimir online.
In that same category i'm still keen on Spear of Heliod.
Spear is nice but in the context of the deck it feels weird, as it feels more like a card that could do some work after a boardwipe while you try to rebuild, but when Tolsimir is online you're more likely to be removing creatures through triggers already and doing so before damage. The anthem effect is something the deck needs though.
Yes, Dwynen's Elite is a very good option i know from modern Elves. Just like Emmara though, it needs quite some build around (i.e. more elf focussed 1 drops) to gain value on curve. I see Emmara producing more tokens by random attacks in my build to be honest. These cards play a small role in the overall sceme and with that in mind Elvish Visionary at least guarantees you that extra card in any stage of the game and some fodder to block with or sac/champion. In my build and the EDH format in general, i prefer that consistency over build around cards that are sub optimal in the overall game plan.
Yeah, here the build difference definitely changes things and Visionary is a better fit for you. Though I feel its best not to focus on the ETB beyond the initial cast anyways, ideally you want to keep Packmaster on the board so that means you won't get it back. So that's the floor for the championed Elf creature, so at most getting an additional trigger is mostly a bonus.
I use tutors to gain access to certain key cards, but also to just close out the late game with a possible combo. Since you don't run any combo, You could focus a little more on the blinking/flickering/value aspect of the deck. I would probably use those slots to fit in those repetitive flickering engines. I know Eldrazi Displacer needs some extra work in the mana department, but it can be done because the deck is not that greedy. It becomes a 3 color manabase though.
Yeah, it's why I try to make sure most colorless sources have some additional value. Mirrorpool is the only slightly awkward one I currently have left, as only the token making part has some effect left. So I will have to see if it has any merit to keep it in the deck after playing it a few times, as making some copies might be working better in theory than on the board.
Anyways, I have gone and made some cuts and used some of the thoughts that came with including Great Oak Guardian, which actually ends up adding some combo to my list and some options to close out games as well. As since I do run blink effects and have some mana dorks, I decided to give Paradox Engine a go. It's a card that will illicit some groans, but in a tribal deck it is slightly less obnoxious in my opinion. Also Selesnya is quite limited in tutoring for artifacts, so it's not going to be a go to tutor card all the time. It getting removed isn't the end all either, the mana investment sucks, but usually it means another enchantment is likely sticking around.
There are many overrun type effects in magic's history and many of them are very budget friendly. With all the creature tutoring around, you could consider End-Raze Forerunners for the time being. Though you'll know in the back of your head there's just no hoof like THE HOOF
Yeah, its definitely something to consider... but right now I'm personally looking at Great Oak Guardian. Doesn't have trample but since I run mana dorks the untap could work well with blinking it for a massive boost.
I've been thinking a lot about Emmara, Soul of the Accord. I added her from my own collection with the intention to do a lot more with Convoke or cards like Cryptolith Rite and make a bunch of elfs to abuse. It's a very very good creature, but things just didn't really go her way and thus she has lost some of her power in this deck. I do need an elf at 2cmc however, preferably with some nice ETB value for those champion situations. Elvish Visionary comes to mind, but other than replacing itself just hasn't got enough impact. Any sugestions?
I've used Emmara in decks before but she takes cards to make her work, since she has no tap ability herself and needs things along the lines of Seedborn Muse to really start doing some work.
As 2-drop Elves the first that comes to mind is indeed Elvish Visionary for sure... Dwynen’s Elite is there to get more value if you have token doublers out there. Sylvan Ranger could give some incidental ramp. Think here the Elite might be a decent option.
I'm also wondering if Dromoka's Command should have place in the deck. It was in my first draft but cut it for Sundering Growth for theme and flavor reasons. Now i have a feeling they should both be in.
Depends on what you are looking for in the card, as enchantment removal Sundering Growth is going to be better. It targets a piece where as the Command will always hit the worst enchantment on the board. The additional modes is what you have to judge the card on, as Growth is more flavorful indeed but also easier to cast.
I'm getting in the realm of theorycrafting now, and i need real life play/goldfishing to find out what works and what not. It's mainly Wren's Run Packmaster that influences most on-curve choices at the moment.
Yeah, it's where I am at as well, as some cards will probably be too cute to run. It will definitely make it easier to decide what cards that can be cut, as it's where I am looking at things with my list as well. Right now I know that I'll likely be taking out Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and am actually considering cutting Eladamri's Call over Eldritch Evolution, just to lower the amount of white in the deck a tad and make space for more win condition lines. Ideally I'd make one more cut in my existing list, but finding that one has been challenging.
I'll likely do an updated list in the next few days, as I'm still contemplating some changes and trying to see where I can make some more cuts to add some additional lines to my deck. Though contemplating these things makes me regret not having a Hoof in my collection, but for my wallet's sake I'm looking at ways to make it work without getting a copy.
So have gone back and forth over some of the cards for a few days now, as well as did some goldfishing to see where tweaks could be made. Taking out Howl of the Night Pack has definitely allowed me to narrow down the things the deck wants to do and pretty much used that to implement a few other changes as well.
First of all, Chord of Calling and the new Finale of Devastation will help bring the deck some more consistency. So made space for those two by removing Sword of the Animist and Bow of Nylea. Bow I simply misread (neglected to notice the attacking part) and doesn't do what I want it to do, while the ramp of Sword is nice with the aforementioned Howl of the Night Pack gone digging for forests is less of a priority, of which this is a fragile option at most.
Since I'm not heavy on the +1/+1 counters in this build I took Metallic Mimic out of my list, not to mention it becomes a wolf after the fight trigger might happen. Lightning Greaves was added instead, giving the deck some more protective measures as well as minor haste enabler.
The deck does play heavy on ETB triggers, so am considering adding Cloudstone Curio but still need to find a card to cut for that.
Yeah, the green Finale is definitely getting a spot, it helps building consistency for the deck and can work as a win condition as well. Along with that Chord is also going to be into my list as another way to add that consistency, which is pretty much my focus right now when it comes to tweaking my list.
Trying to narrow down the deck strategy has been helping me figure out potential cuts. Since stepping off Howl of the Night Pack I just need less of a focus on ramping out lands, so Sword of the Animist is something I’m taking out for now. Metallic Mimic while nicely on curve got removed as well, it doesn’t trigger anything upon entering and other then that was only really there to synergize with Doubling Season. So since I don’t have a focus on +1/+1 counters it’s better to take it out and use its spot for something that I do want to focus on.
[b]Bow of Nylea[/c] is also getting cut simply because I keep reading over one part of the card each time I sift through my collection; the attacking part for deathtouch. Doesn’t work with the fighting our wolves do and the modes on it feel too incidentally useful that again I could do with a more focused card here.
Finally, Karametra, God of Harvests is one I’m unsure about. Freeing up a high curve slot would be nice, especially since its mostly filtering out lands late game. Of course, if you can ramp into it turn three it can do a lot, but it’s not a card I want to look at in the ideal situation. As while I have means to tutor for an enchantment, I’d likely take a token doubler before Karametra. The other side remains that the deck does love ramping and it gives a minor back up in case the mana dorks get taken out.
Other then that I’ve been considering some additional bounce to fuel more triggers in the form of Erratic Portal or Cloudstone Curio. Though Portal just isn’t good enough in this deck since you pay 3 to bounce it and to get wolf triggers going its likely that the bounced creature would have to be a three drop, and as a six mana ‘loop’ its just too expensive. Curio definitely has more merit in that regard, so it could replace Karametra, of course, the two do have some synergy but sadly the lands come into play tapped.
So yeah at the moment I’m still undecided between Cloudstone Curio and Karametra’s potential place in my deck.
Yeah, I try to run most 1 drop mana elves in this list simply because I want enough elves to champion with Wren's Run Packmaster, the only exception being Arbor Elf which obviously is a good one to have but with Displacer in my list I opted for Boreal Druid over it instead. Anything more costed needs to be able to make more than one mana for me, since I can spend that on Wolfbriar Elemental's kicker cost. Beastcaller Savant ended up being an exception only because it has both an Ally and Elf subtype.
Also, one reason why I am holding off on Smothering Tithe is the fact that it's a white card and do want to try to keep the deck more on a heavy green side, especially since most mana elves end up generating green.
Will have to see if the Finale of card is real, I've been hold off on picking up a copy of Chord of Calling for the deck due to it.
I know we are in green, but having seen the card in action a few times my other and friends deck, would Smothering Tithe be worthwile?
We have many manasinks in the deck to make use of the abundance of mana it can generate. The treasuretokens also get doubled up by our doubling effects resulting upwards of 6 mana per turn usually.
It's definitely a good card to run. the real question is if you have a slot for it. With all the token doublers and such I am already running a fair amount of enchantments, so I'm sticking to the mana dorks package for now.
Ruling question: Do I have it right that when I have for example a Wilt-Leaf Liege in play,and Voja, Friend to elves enters the battlefield, it fights for 5 ?
So when I have an anthem in play, it works the moment the wolf comes on the battlefield ? Does anyone know which rulings are applicable here ?
Voja would then be a 5/5 as it enters due to the anthem effect of Wilt-Leaf Liege. The anthem is a state based effect and will be checked before triggered abilities do.
If I'm right it's this ruling:
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.
While going a little more in depth on your list, you are making good use of the Changeling mechanic. I can totally see why Elvish Archdruid would be a good fit in your deck.
Thanks
Yeah, normally I consider Changelings in Tribal decks to be flavor fails, but here they just get to be more than just wolves. They act also as Elves and Allies just for added value.
Much like you I'm still in the process of trying to tweak those final slots in the deck. One change I just made is actually taking out Primal Forcemage and replaced it with Thunderfoot Baloth for now. Forcemage is good for fighting but without having haste enablers the effect does little beyond it, where as the Baloth does provide a longer lasting buff effect. The deck already depends a fair bit on having Tolsimir out, so in that sense the restriction would be less of an issue. That said getting Tolsimir removed would result in pretty much a two for one, so definitely some risk there but my list is lacking some trample effects hence my current inclusion of it.
Nightshade Peddler can be useful to make the token have deathtouch and killing the creature it fights.
I initially brough From Beyond in as a replacement for the considered Growing Ranks but it was even slower, that said I can see cutting it and giving tokens deathtouch will be useful I ended up replacing it with Bow of Nylea. Not too fond of the Peddler since it only gives one creature deathtouch and if it sticks around after a fight you don't have the benefit of the deathtouch as much. So I feel Bow might be the better option here.
I've decided to actually take out Howl of the Night Pack since having enough forests is a restriction as you mentioned. Furthermore, the CMC can make it a card sitting in your hand for quite a while early on.
I'm personally keeping Reclamation Sage in, mostly because I know I have to deal with the occasional Propaganda effect. Both Harbinger and Forcemage are cards to consider in the deck, just a matter of figuring out whether you want more punch or more consistency.
Panharmonicon is definitely a no go I realized, since it's fight ability was changed since it was spoiled. It's no longer a may clause, so double fight triggers just risks the wolf token dying.
One reason I like Elvish Archdruid is that it helps fuel kicking Wolfbriar Elemental, so I'm not going to cut it from my list for that reason. Emmara on the other hand does feel like a bit of an oddball in your current list, since the deck isn't really built around using her ability. The most you can do is clear the board with wolf fight triggers, but you need Tolsimir out for that and Emmara is likely to hit the board before that.
As far as four drops go, Yeva, Nature's Herald was something I considered. New Vivien does the same for one mana less though and has potential card draw, hence why I am leaning to testing her out first.
Funny you say that! Because Panharmonicon is a card i consider cutting for its awful nonbo with Wren's Run Packmaster and not usefully triggering Tolsimir's fight trigger by Voja himself.
It's a card that has merits for sure, but doesn't really have the desired effect outside of etb value by other creatures.
Definitely have a point there and since I do see the Packmaster as good value to the deck, I might have to reconsider running Panharmonicon.
From the new set I'm still considering Vivien, Champion of the Wilds, as giving creatures flash could be quite beneficial to start fights on opponent's turns with our wolves. The potential 'draw' can be a nice bonus in our colors. Alternatively there is the new Arlinn, but I do find her to be too highly costed for what she does.
Thank you so much for contributing! Yes, our lists differ in approach, but that's a good thing. Many ways to build a deck is prove of a versatile commander and we might just be able to turn this into a primer. I liek your focus on blinking very much. I've opted for combo as an alternate wincon in those slots.
I'm with you on the "lifegain" aspect. I don't capitalize on it as much as you think, my list is about board control trough the fight mechanic.
Honestly, i'm very excited and i can't wait till i get my preordered copies of Tolsimir and Voja to sit down to playtest and pump out wolves! That's when the real tuning starts
I found that in building my initial list that the deck needs to be quite aware of how many "build around" cards are in the deck, since quite a few cards have some restrictions that force some directions. For example: Wren's Run Packmaster requires you to have a decent amount of elves, while Howl of the Night Pack wants forests. Which are actually two different ramp packages that pretty much compete for slots. I've currently both in my list which is probably a mistake and after reading your list I'm likely to replace Howl with Panharmonicon, since the fight trigger on Tolsimir is fortunately a may ability.
Ramp and landbase are always something you have to tweak in those first few games. As far as mana-elves go, they are indeed a risk but the opposite side is you can potentially get a few explosive turns going. I purposely tried to keep my average CMC down as much as I could to help deal with the eventual wipe.
I haven't considered Selvala nor Shalai for my build so they are a bit harder to comment on. Silverfur Partisan is simply a build around card and if you don't plan on exploiting it's ability then yeah it can be replaced for something which has more effect immediately.
Yeah, it's why I try to make sure most colorless sources have some additional value. Mirrorpool is the only slightly awkward one I currently have left, as only the token making part has some effect left. So I will have to see if it has any merit to keep it in the deck after playing it a few times, as making some copies might be working better in theory than on the board.
Anyways, I have gone and made some cuts and used some of the thoughts that came with including Great Oak Guardian, which actually ends up adding some combo to my list and some options to close out games as well. As since I do run blink effects and have some mana dorks, I decided to give Paradox Engine a go. It's a card that will illicit some groans, but in a tribal deck it is slightly less obnoxious in my opinion. Also Selesnya is quite limited in tutoring for artifacts, so it's not going to be a go to tutor card all the time. It getting removed isn't the end all either, the mana investment sucks, but usually it means another enchantment is likely sticking around.
So that puts my current version of the deck at:
1x Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
Creature (34)
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Avian Changeling
1x Beastcaller Savant
1x Boreal Druid
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Changeling Titan
1x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Elvish Archdruid
1x Elvish Harbinger
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Great Oak Guardian
1x Harabaz Druid
1x Karametra, God of Harvests
1x Kessig Cagebreakers
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Mirror Entity
1x Priest of Titania
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Runic Armasaur
1x Silverfur Partisan
1x Thunderfoot Baloth
1x Tolsimir Wolfblood
1x Turntimber Ranger
1x Watchwolf
1x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Witchstalker
1x Wolf-Skull Shaman
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
1x Woodland Changeling
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
1x Young Wolf
1x Chord of Calling
1x Crop Rotation
1x Eerie Interlude
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Noxious Revival
1x Scapegoat
1x Swords to Plowshare
Sorcery (4)
1x Austere Command
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Finale of Devastation
1x Regrowth
Enchantment (10)
1x Anointed Procession
1x Aura Shards
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Doubling Season
1x Elemental Bond
1x Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1x Marshal's Anthem
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Parallel Lives
1x Sylvan Library
Artifact (8)
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mirage Mirror
1x Paradox Engine
1x Selesnya Signet
1x Sol Ring
1x Talisman of Unity
1x Thornbite Staff
1x Brushland
1x Canopy Vista
1x Command Tower
18x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Krosan Verge
1x Mirrorpool
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Naya Panorama
4x Plains
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Scattered Groves
1x Scavenger Grounds
1x Temple Garden
1x Wooded Bastion
I've used Emmara in decks before but she takes cards to make her work, since she has no tap ability herself and needs things along the lines of Seedborn Muse to really start doing some work.
As 2-drop Elves the first that comes to mind is indeed Elvish Visionary for sure... Dwynen’s Elite is there to get more value if you have token doublers out there. Sylvan Ranger could give some incidental ramp. Think here the Elite might be a decent option.
Depends on what you are looking for in the card, as enchantment removal Sundering Growth is going to be better. It targets a piece where as the Command will always hit the worst enchantment on the board. The additional modes is what you have to judge the card on, as Growth is more flavorful indeed but also easier to cast.
Yeah, it's where I am at as well, as some cards will probably be too cute to run. It will definitely make it easier to decide what cards that can be cut, as it's where I am looking at things with my list as well. Right now I know that I'll likely be taking out Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and am actually considering cutting Eladamri's Call over Eldritch Evolution, just to lower the amount of white in the deck a tad and make space for more win condition lines. Ideally I'd make one more cut in my existing list, but finding that one has been challenging.
First of all, Chord of Calling and the new Finale of Devastation will help bring the deck some more consistency. So made space for those two by removing Sword of the Animist and Bow of Nylea. Bow I simply misread (neglected to notice the attacking part) and doesn't do what I want it to do, while the ramp of Sword is nice with the aforementioned Howl of the Night Pack gone digging for forests is less of a priority, of which this is a fragile option at most.
Since I'm not heavy on the +1/+1 counters in this build I took Metallic Mimic out of my list, not to mention it becomes a wolf after the fight trigger might happen. Lightning Greaves was added instead, giving the deck some more protective measures as well as minor haste enabler.
The deck does play heavy on ETB triggers, so am considering adding Cloudstone Curio but still need to find a card to cut for that.
Trying to narrow down the deck strategy has been helping me figure out potential cuts. Since stepping off Howl of the Night Pack I just need less of a focus on ramping out lands, so Sword of the Animist is something I’m taking out for now. Metallic Mimic while nicely on curve got removed as well, it doesn’t trigger anything upon entering and other then that was only really there to synergize with Doubling Season. So since I don’t have a focus on +1/+1 counters it’s better to take it out and use its spot for something that I do want to focus on.
[b]Bow of Nylea[/c] is also getting cut simply because I keep reading over one part of the card each time I sift through my collection; the attacking part for deathtouch. Doesn’t work with the fighting our wolves do and the modes on it feel too incidentally useful that again I could do with a more focused card here.
Finally, Karametra, God of Harvests is one I’m unsure about. Freeing up a high curve slot would be nice, especially since its mostly filtering out lands late game. Of course, if you can ramp into it turn three it can do a lot, but it’s not a card I want to look at in the ideal situation. As while I have means to tutor for an enchantment, I’d likely take a token doubler before Karametra. The other side remains that the deck does love ramping and it gives a minor back up in case the mana dorks get taken out.
Other then that I’ve been considering some additional bounce to fuel more triggers in the form of Erratic Portal or Cloudstone Curio. Though Portal just isn’t good enough in this deck since you pay 3 to bounce it and to get wolf triggers going its likely that the bounced creature would have to be a three drop, and as a six mana ‘loop’ its just too expensive. Curio definitely has more merit in that regard, so it could replace Karametra, of course, the two do have some synergy but sadly the lands come into play tapped.
So yeah at the moment I’m still undecided between Cloudstone Curio and Karametra’s potential place in my deck.
Also, one reason why I am holding off on Smothering Tithe is the fact that it's a white card and do want to try to keep the deck more on a heavy green side, especially since most mana elves end up generating green.
Will have to see if the Finale of card is real, I've been hold off on picking up a copy of Chord of Calling for the deck due to it.
If I'm right it's this ruling:
Yeah, normally I consider Changelings in Tribal decks to be flavor fails, but here they just get to be more than just wolves. They act also as Elves and Allies just for added value.
Much like you I'm still in the process of trying to tweak those final slots in the deck. One change I just made is actually taking out Primal Forcemage and replaced it with Thunderfoot Baloth for now. Forcemage is good for fighting but without having haste enablers the effect does little beyond it, where as the Baloth does provide a longer lasting buff effect. The deck already depends a fair bit on having Tolsimir out, so in that sense the restriction would be less of an issue. That said getting Tolsimir removed would result in pretty much a two for one, so definitely some risk there but my list is lacking some trample effects hence my current inclusion of it.
I've decided to actually take out Howl of the Night Pack since having enough forests is a restriction as you mentioned. Furthermore, the CMC can make it a card sitting in your hand for quite a while early on.
Panharmonicon is definitely a no go I realized, since it's fight ability was changed since it was spoiled. It's no longer a may clause, so double fight triggers just risks the wolf token dying.
One reason I like Elvish Archdruid is that it helps fuel kicking Wolfbriar Elemental, so I'm not going to cut it from my list for that reason. Emmara on the other hand does feel like a bit of an oddball in your current list, since the deck isn't really built around using her ability. The most you can do is clear the board with wolf fight triggers, but you need Tolsimir out for that and Emmara is likely to hit the board before that.
As far as four drops go, Yeva, Nature's Herald was something I considered. New Vivien does the same for one mana less though and has potential card draw, hence why I am leaning to testing her out first.
From the new set I'm still considering Vivien, Champion of the Wilds, as giving creatures flash could be quite beneficial to start fights on opponent's turns with our wolves. The potential 'draw' can be a nice bonus in our colors. Alternatively there is the new Arlinn, but I do find her to be too highly costed for what she does.
I found that in building my initial list that the deck needs to be quite aware of how many "build around" cards are in the deck, since quite a few cards have some restrictions that force some directions. For example: Wren's Run Packmaster requires you to have a decent amount of elves, while Howl of the Night Pack wants forests. Which are actually two different ramp packages that pretty much compete for slots. I've currently both in my list which is probably a mistake and after reading your list I'm likely to replace Howl with Panharmonicon, since the fight trigger on Tolsimir is fortunately a may ability.