isn't playing around board wipes a requirement for aggro decks in general when facing control? Laughing
i am still on the fence regarding Ferocidon, though. i think Lathnu Hellion's better. in my mind, closing the game early beats trying to prevent life gain, simply because U/W Approach can win in 8 turns.
Playing around Settle is sort of a different affair than the standard Wrath of God style of boardwipe. Not only do we have to manage what we cast, because of Fumigate, but how we attack, since Settle is instant speed.
Ferocidon is miles better than Hellion when it comes to UW Approach. If you stick it, the anti-life gain clause is going to net you more "damage" in the form of negated lifegain than Hellion could hope to. Between Authority, Caracal, Approach, Blessed Alliance, and Sunscourge Champion, I've had UW decks gain more than 20 life in a game.
For something to ruin the format, I’d say it would need to be both dominate and unfun to play against. I’m personally not seeing much more than the usual Jund-esque good stuff midrange decks that only coincidentally use energy. They are fun to play and interesting to play against. So don’t particularly seem like a huge problem.
I'm not sure if I was correct, but when I've played against it on MTGO, my strategy was that when they had Settle mana I would keep back stuff like Khenra or Hazoret. We can recur Khenra and Hazoret can kill with activations.
This only really works if we have something else to attack with, but as long as we are threatening 2-3+ damage that is probably enough. If they don't Settle then we waste their mana. If they do, we still have our better threats for the next turn.
It might even be correct to Shock your own Khenra if it is attacking and they Settle. The Eternalize 4/4 later on is likely worth more than the 2 damage to the dome.
Edit: I would also fire off Lightning Strikes in game 1 whenever I didn't have much else to do. Especially if I could get a prowess trigger on Soul-Scar in the process.
Game 1 the removal is dead, which is what I was trying to say. Post board, I would still cut Push and Disintegrate. However, likely bring in a couple of Abrade because it hits both the cat and the hulk. I’d be filling the rest of the spots with threats like Chandra.
ah. didn't notice Caracal's only 3/3. i thought it's 3/4, beyond Abrade's reach.
but isn't Chandra too slow? 2 damage per turn is not 4 damage per turn for 2 turns like Lathnu Hellion. on the other hand, she doesn't get exiled by Settle the Wreckage. still, i am concerned she may not do much work before the opponent wins via casting another Approach.
I wasn't super clear. Not just Chandra, but threats in general. Working off a stock list, I'd cut all the shocks, likely cut down to about 2 Abrade and then side into as many of the better threats as I can. Chandra, Ferocidon, maybe a couple Glorybringer if I need to fill some spots.
Chandra is a little bit slow, but it does represent a threat that is a bit harder to remove. She smacks them for 2 a turn and threatens ultimate in a few turns. She also doubles as removal for Caracal, albeit not the cleanest if we don't have some dudes to block.
Ferocidon is probably the best threat we have against them, so it might be worthwhile thinking about running 3-4 of them in the 75 going forward.
Edit: I also think learning how to play around Settle the Wreckage is key in fighting this deck.
Game 1 the removal is dead, which is what I was trying to say. Post board, I would still cut Push and Disintegrate. However, likely bring in a couple of Abrade because it hits both the cat and the hulk. I’d be filling the rest of the spots with threats like Chandra.
They had this very matchup in the SCG VS Series recently. UW brought in Regal Caracal, Authority of Consuls, and a couple Gearhulks. They cut Supreme Will and shaved off 1-2 on the more expensive spells like Glimmer, Cast Out, and Fumigate.
I think the Discard could be good after board, which is what might make the Black splash appealing. Its too bad they don't run Gearhulks main, but I imagine that is to dodge the game 1 removal. You also have to be careful of them siding into Regal Caracal. That can be a problem for both decks if it goes unanswered.
@PapaThor: I wonder how RB fairs vs UWx Approach. The UW deck appears to be real and likely the main choice for control mages going forward. It’s likely the most relevant factor as to whether to go with a splash or not.
RB gets Scrounger, but it’s not as good against the Settle the Wreckage or Cast Out removal package anyway. Also, Disintegration and Cut // Ribbons are dead draws game 1. I’m not sure how consistently you’ll be able to keep Apprentice turned on under heavy removal.
Mono-Red has some issues with its main board too, like Abrade, but I think that slot is more flexible main than Disintegration. Chandra is better than Key and Kari Zev better at attacking Gideon than Scrounger. The Sunscorched deserts are not inconsequential either.
I’m inclined to think Mono Red has the advantage Game 1. After side it’s probably a different story depending on the RB sideboard.
I've updated the Primer based on the decklists we've seen. I'm using the aggregate as the sample decklist. I have kept the Black Splash decklist in light of this from the MTGO PTQ:
He/She managed to keep Ramunap, but did cut Sunscorch, opting to run Spire of Industry to up the black mana sources. It's an interesting version. I am not sure if it is better than just straight Mono Red in light of the taplands and slightly unstable mana. Does open up some nice options in Black though.
There was a Ramunap Red deck featured SCG Vs Series earlier in the week that did not play any 1-drops. Though, I can’t say it performed very well at 0-5.
Why not play three each of Runner and Soul-Scar instead of 4/2?
I could see going 3/3. As mentioned, I think it's performed better overall than Mage in my own games, hence why I've split it the way I have. The sample lists will get updated once we have some successful shells to refer to.
I noticed you had Rampaging Ferocidon in the SB discussion. That could well be where it belongs, but I've actually started playing 3 main. Menace is a relevant keyword for us and the ping damage adds up in the game of inches we're usually playing. I'd be interested to hear what your experiences with it have been.
I could see Ferocidon being a mainboard card if the UW Approach lists become a significant part of the meta. There is a lot of lifegain in those decks which can make the matchup pretty frustrating. Actually, my addition of it in the sample lists is informed directly by my run ins with it on MTGO.
Playing around Settle is sort of a different affair than the standard Wrath of God style of boardwipe. Not only do we have to manage what we cast, because of Fumigate, but how we attack, since Settle is instant speed.
Ferocidon is miles better than Hellion when it comes to UW Approach. If you stick it, the anti-life gain clause is going to net you more "damage" in the form of negated lifegain than Hellion could hope to. Between Authority, Caracal, Approach, Blessed Alliance, and Sunscourge Champion, I've had UW decks gain more than 20 life in a game.
This only really works if we have something else to attack with, but as long as we are threatening 2-3+ damage that is probably enough. If they don't Settle then we waste their mana. If they do, we still have our better threats for the next turn.
It might even be correct to Shock your own Khenra if it is attacking and they Settle. The Eternalize 4/4 later on is likely worth more than the 2 damage to the dome.
Edit: I would also fire off Lightning Strikes in game 1 whenever I didn't have much else to do. Especially if I could get a prowess trigger on Soul-Scar in the process.
I wasn't super clear. Not just Chandra, but threats in general. Working off a stock list, I'd cut all the shocks, likely cut down to about 2 Abrade and then side into as many of the better threats as I can. Chandra, Ferocidon, maybe a couple Glorybringer if I need to fill some spots.
Chandra is a little bit slow, but it does represent a threat that is a bit harder to remove. She smacks them for 2 a turn and threatens ultimate in a few turns. She also doubles as removal for Caracal, albeit not the cleanest if we don't have some dudes to block.
Ferocidon is probably the best threat we have against them, so it might be worthwhile thinking about running 3-4 of them in the 75 going forward.
Edit: I also think learning how to play around Settle the Wreckage is key in fighting this deck.
RB gets Scrounger, but it’s not as good against the Settle the Wreckage or Cast Out removal package anyway. Also, Disintegration and Cut // Ribbons are dead draws game 1. I’m not sure how consistently you’ll be able to keep Apprentice turned on under heavy removal.
Mono-Red has some issues with its main board too, like Abrade, but I think that slot is more flexible main than Disintegration. Chandra is better than Key and Kari Zev better at attacking Gideon than Scrounger. The Sunscorched deserts are not inconsequential either.
I’m inclined to think Mono Red has the advantage Game 1. After side it’s probably a different story depending on the RB sideboard.
4 Bomat Courier
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Inventor's Apprentice
2 Pia Nalaar
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
Sorcery (2)
2 Cut // Ribbons
Instant (10)
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Key to the City
Land (24)
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
8 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Spire of Industry
4 Abrade
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Chandra's Defeat
3 Glorybringer
2 Magma Spray
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
He/She managed to keep Ramunap, but did cut Sunscorch, opting to run Spire of Industry to up the black mana sources. It's an interesting version. I am not sure if it is better than just straight Mono Red in light of the taplands and slightly unstable mana. Does open up some nice options in Black though.
4 Bomat Courier
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari-Zev
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Abrade
Lands (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
1 Scavenger Grounds
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance,
3 Glorybringer
2 Rampaging Ferocidon
2 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Pia Nalaar
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
1 Sweltering Suns
Slot / Freq / Card
1 100% Bomat Courier 1
2 100% Bomat Courier 2
3 100% Bomat Courier 3
4 100% Bomat Courier 4
5 100% Soul-Scar Mage 1
6 100% Soul-Scar Mage 2
7 100% Soul-Scar Mage 3
8 100% Soul-Scar Mage 4
9 100% Earthshaker Khenra 1
10 100% Earthshaker Khenra 2
11 100% Earthshaker Khenra 3
12 100% Earthshaker Khenra 4
13 100% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 1
14 100% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 2
15 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 1
16 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 2
17 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 3
18 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 4
19 100% Hazoret the Fervent 1
20 100% Hazoret the Fervent 2
21 100% Hazoret the Fervent 3
22 100% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 1
23 100% Lightning Strike 1
24 100% Lightning Strike 2
25 100% Lightning Strike 3
26 100% Lightning Strike 4
27 100% Shock 1
28 100% Shock 2
29 100% Abrade 1
30 88% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 3
31 88% Hazoret the Fervent 4
32 88% Shock 3
33 88% Shock 4
34 88% Abrade 2
35 75% Abrade 3
36 50% Abrade 4
37 50% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 2
----------------------------------------------
38 25% Rigging Runner 1
39 25% Rigging Runner 2
40 25% Rigging Runner 3
41 13% Glorybringer 1
42 13% Rampaging Ferocidon 1
43 0% Rigging Runner 4
44 0% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 4
45 0% Glorybringer 2
46 0% Glorybringer 3
47 0% Glorybringer 4
48 0% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 3
49 0% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 4
50 0% Repeating Barrage 1
51 0% Repeating Barrage 2
52 0% Repeating Barrage 3
53 0% Repeating Barrage 4
54 0% Magma Spray 1
55 0% Magma Spray 2
56 0% Magma Spray 3
57 0% Magma Spray 4
58 0% Rampaging Ferocidon 2
59 0% Rampaging Ferocidon 3
60 0% Rampaging Ferocidon 4
# Decks / Avg Per / Card
7 2.6 Chandra's Defeat
6 2.0 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
6 3.2 Glorybringer
5 2.6 Rampaging Ferocidon
4 1.5 Aethersphere Harvester
4 1.8 Pia Nalaar
4 1.5 Abrade3 1.0 Vance's Blasting Cannons
2 1.0 Sweltering Suns
-------------------------------------------
2 2.5 Harsh Mentor
2 1.0 Land
2 2.0 Sand Strangler
1 1.0 Scavenger Grounds
1 1.0 Insult // Injury
1 1.0 Sorerous Spyglass
1 1.0 Magma Spray
1 2.0 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 1.0 Key to the City
Observations:
Couple more in Top 16 of the Open as well as two in the Top 8 of the SCG Classic.
4 Bomat Courier
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Earthshaker Khenra
1 Glorybringer
3 Rigging Runner
4 Soul-Scar Mage
3 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
Spells (9)
3 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock
1 Key to the City
4 Harsh Mentor
2 Rampaging Ferocidon
1 Abrade
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Pia Nalaar
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
4 Bomat Courier
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
Spells (11)
3 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
3 Glorybringer
4 Rampaging Ferocidon
2 Sand Strangler
1 Abrade
3 Chandra's Defeat
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Bomat Courier
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Earthshaker Khenra
1 Rampaging Ferocidon
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
Spells (10)
2 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
2 Aethersphere Harvester
3 Glorybringer
1 Rampaging Ferocidon
2 Sand Strangler
1 Abrade
3 Chandra's Defeat
1 Magma Spray
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Bomat Courier
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
14 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
Spells (12)
4 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
2 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Glorybringer
4 Chandra's Defeat
2 Vance's Blasting Cannons
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 Scavenger Grounds
For reference, here are the top8 lists from the MTGO PTQ in deck tags:
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Bomat Courier
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Rigging Runner
4 Soul-Scar Mage
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Instant (9)
1 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
Land (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
1 Scavenger Grounds
3 Abrade
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Chandra's Defeat
3 Glorybringer
2 Pia Nalaar
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Bomat Courier
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Soul-Scar Mage
Planeswalker (1)
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
Land (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Chandra's Defeat
3 Glorybringer
1 Insult // Injury
3 Rampaging Ferocidon
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Bomat Courier
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Soul-Scar Mage
Planeswalker (1)
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
Land (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Sunscorched Desert
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Chandra's Defeat
3 Glorybringer
1 Pia Nalaar
3 Rampaging Ferocidon
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
I could see going 3/3. As mentioned, I think it's performed better overall than Mage in my own games, hence why I've split it the way I have. The sample lists will get updated once we have some successful shells to refer to.
I could see Ferocidon being a mainboard card if the UW Approach lists become a significant part of the meta. There is a lot of lifegain in those decks which can make the matchup pretty frustrating. Actually, my addition of it in the sample lists is informed directly by my run ins with it on MTGO.