I do not have a marsh flats and only 1 verdant, can i play other black/white/green fetches instead? what do you guys recommend?
Also is the WG cycle land from amonkhet a decent replacement for canopy?
Thanks!
I would recommend playing any green fetches and only green shocklands to fetch. This increase the consistency at which you will have green mana to play a turn 1 dork. Also helps with chord. Yes, I am saying don't run godless shrine or basic swamp, the plains is neccesary though. Also, I wouldn't play scattered groves for canopy, coming into play tapped is too huge a cost. Instead you get some Razorverge thickets as the best replacement. You could also consider additional temple gardens or fetches for the slot.
Obviously, making these upgrades would make the deck a lot better but I understand if you can't right now. (The verdants aren't actually neccesary so don't worry about getting them).
@shelldell, no humans in my meta but lots of grafdigger's cage. I've gotten used to often bringing in Pridemage against random decks I suspect have cage. If they do stick a cage early game then that sucks but I'd rather have an answer to blow them out of the water than none at all. It's also at its worst a 2/2 with exalted like you said. That's perfect for our plan b of attacking our opponent. This is the reason Pridemage used to be main deck. There are probably also pretty bad cards you can cut in those matchups so Pridemage doesn't have much opportunity cost associated with it.
As for the people saying this deck is bad in the meta, on paper I believe they're right. This deck has no business beating all these midrange shadow decks, tron decks, etc. Despite this, I still find myself doing quite well with the deck every week at FNM as well as at larger tournaments. I'm playing the abzan build with both druid and finks combo, but I've jammed four knights into the deck along with a kessig wolf run/stomping ground package which has really helped me win more. I think the secret to this deck is just mastering it, as it always seems to work better in the hands of people who really know it and (pun intended) are devoted to it. The deck also offers plenty of room to Metagame for your environment, either mainboard or side. I encourage people to try different cards, for example I've been playing lingering souls x2 in the board for a while now and they've been absolutely amazing.
Minum - really interesting list. Had a few questions for you.
How has the finks combo been for you? Does playing just three finks justify the two "bad" cards (4th vizier and seer)? Additionally I notice you don't have a follow up kill condition - anafensa or redcap. How often has this package won you games?
Second, I noticed you're playing ralliers. I've spent a fair amount of time playing that card in evolution decks and I have to say I'm pretty certain it's not good enough. It doesn't do anything on combo turns, it plays into graveyard hate, and it's too often just a 3/2
Cool list though. Definitely similar to what I've been testing
Sorry man, been a busy couple days and haven't had much chance to get on here. The tournament ended up great, was 5-1 top seed going into top 8 before dropping a match to UW control. Usually a good matchup but he got everything he need and a Gideon AoZ that I couldn't answer both games.
For the finks combo, I definitely find it necessary to have in the deck. One of the strengths of the deck is having two combos to lean on, not to mention finks is a pretty good creature in general. I'm almost never disappointed to play a finks without comboing (unless it's like against tron of course). I would play 4 viziers anyways so that irrelevant. The seer can be a little awkward at times but it either wins me the game or eats a removal spell so it's generally not too bad. I don't run anafenza or redcap because they hurt the manabase a lot. Anafenza was the reason we had to run godless shrine before and I cannot stress to you how much I hate godless shrine in this deck with birds, nobles, and chords. Also, infinite life is usually good enough to secure a game or at least buy me time if they have outs.
As far as rallier goes, he's been kinda hit-or-miss for me too. The mantra I always remeber with him though is that at best he wins you the game by re animating a combo piece or sideboard card. At worst, he gets back a fetchland or canopy and leaves a reasonable body behind. I've had enough situations with him where he was amazing to warrant having him in the deck.
In conclusion, the knight list was fantastic this weekend for me and my friend. The kessig wolf run did kill some people, both infinitely and on normal boards. The knights also did a respectable job generating value and defending against large things, even killing folks. I also loved not having a Rhonas not doing anything every game. I love Rhonas but he rarely did much if I wasn't in a winning position sadly. even had an invocation of him.
To the post above me, I believe people are referring to the scapeshift Titan version, not the breach titan plan, which is much less common.
Secondly, me and my friend are going to a monthly modern event today and are playing my new build of abzan company which is a modified version of the knight of the reliquary plan. I've won two fnms so far with it and it feels so much better than before,with knight giving me much more versatility with both its size and searching for canopies, gavonies, and/or kessig. I'll post the list below. (Still can't figure out how to use that decklist feature on my ipad). Lingering souls has been a great board card against attrition style decks like shadow and abzan. It single handedly wins games (and has). I play the ninth fetch because of renegade rallier and knight of the reliquary. Ten would be the sweet spot, but I don't want to cut any of my other lands. 20 lands has not felt like too few at all either.
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
1 viscera seer
4 devoted druid
4 vizier of remedies
2 duskwatch recruiter
1 selfless spirit
1 walking ballista
4 knight of the reliquary
3 eternal witness
3 kitchen finks
2 renegade rallier
So, is the sample deck supposed to have 61 cards in it? Thinking about picking this up as a fun deck to play on the side when I'm tired of competitive decks.
Meddling Mage x 4 absolutely *****s on our worst match up, which is Tron variants
Clearly you've never played against living end, that is a worse matchup than tron. And the main reason I wanna play meddling mage.
The reason I want mage over eidolon is that mage is more useful in the matchups we need it, like tron, ad nauseam, and living end. Eidolon is great aginst control decks using snaps but remember eidolon restricts us too, meaning if we cast a spell and they counter it, we don't get another spell. Also, decks playing snap are already a very good matchup for us anyways. Also, hitting for two and coming down turn 2 instead of three is relevant since our curve is super packed on three already. Mage also has the potential to be good against random decks you may not expect to face where eidolon is a lot more restrictive in its ability to hate.
So, I'm going to try meddling mage in my sideboard once it arrives in the mail. I thought about adding a couple to the main deck but couldn't find room to squeeze anything out of the deck. MM will help both my living end and ad nauseam (among others) matchups and along with selfless spirit and multiple mages, become a near hard lock. I quite like how the deck can transition into a hatebears-style build post-board so my sideboard reflects this.
I have two bigger modern tourneys coming up in my area in the next two weekends and plan on playing the deck there with the mages added. Unfortunately, I won't have the element of surprise since everyone knows I play the deck by now (though I play it quite well, they may be afraid of it.) But MM will definitely get them, especially off a company since they can't respond once they see it.
My current sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Reflector Mage
3 Unified Will
4 Meddling Mage
I ended up cutting my 2 blessed alliance and 2 stony silence. Being a company deck, I find staying creature heavy helps a lot. Company finds your sideboard cards and you don't draw so many spells that you apply little pressure.
By the way, for the love of Nylea, can someone please tell me how to format a decklist on here so I don't have to manually type them out like above, I'm using a tablet if that's relevant.
Dreadnaught33, my thoughts on meddling mage in the board is that it is a card that helps our traditional bad matchups like tron and ad nauseam while still being pretty good against jund shadow. Just name shadow or goyf (or both) after they've emptied their hand killing your stuff and force them to find more removal (and protect with spirit too). The reason you want 4 I think is so you can name a threat and then name things that can kill the mage. For example, against ad naus, you name ad nauseam first, then slaughter pact or echoing truth with subsequent ones (or whatever else they might have.) it's also important to remember not to name the card till the mage resolves as if it enters, the card is named and they can't respond by casting the spell.
I'm actually gonna order a playset myself. Now just to figure out if I want the Chris pikula art or the new shards one. Maybe two of each?
Prowling serpopard is a decent creature, but he isn't for this deck. Our list is way too tight already. I'd try him in naya company though. Seems exactly what that deck would want, an under costed threat with upside.
I figure that counterspells and Gaddock Teeg out of the sideboard should sway the post-board numbers considerably in our favor. Does anyone have testing data for this?
Gaddock Teeg and countermagic are great against tron, they have single-handedly won me games. I survived an emrakul swing once and swung lethal next turn because I didn't sac my Teeg that was stopping his karn coming down to hit my lethal knight.
I have a pptq this weekend, and have the traditional list built. You know, with the toolcrafts, motorists, depala, Gideon, etc. Should I borrow (not an issue to borrow from friends at all) the pieces to play the ballista version and if I do, what is the purpose of adding ballista to the deck? Is it really worth cutting veteran motorist.
Also, shock or push mainboard? I feel like push is a better removal spell but black is harder to come by than red in this deck. Sorry, I'm mainly a modern player trying to stay competitive in standard and the constant deck changes every week confuse how to properly build my deck.
I'm toying around with the idea of either building Bant or Abzan Company and want to ask how well this deck is positioned against Tron/EldraTron and Bant Eldrazi?
Greetings
In theory, all midrange decks have a poor matchup against tron. However, bant seems to be much better than abzan in my experience. I've played abzan company to several decent finishes and tron has always been a thorn (of amethyst) in my side, since you just have to get lucky there really. Whenever I play against tron with Bant however, I have a mainboard ghost quarter to help me stabilize while I beat their face in, and spell quellers to stop their maps/scryings/stirrings as well. It takes a little luck but you MUST interact with them and disrupt their plan. After sideboard, the matchup can seem trivial of you draw right. I have unified wills, Gaddock Teeg, and stony silence in my board. These cards are all stars against tron, unified will counters everything they have so I consider it better than negate since if you don't have creatures you're already losing. Gaddock Teeg has won me so many games since they bank on their Karns and ugins to win the game, protect him at all costs! Stony silence shuts off o-stone, maps and eggs, but also turns off your clues so plan accordingly. Selfless spirit is also great aginst o-stone and Pyroclasm effects (if those are still played). In short, tron is an okay matchup if you can interact with them. So choose bant to beat tron, but not abzan though I enjoy both decks immensely so don't let tron be your only decider.
Has anyone found success in Gavony Township where Kessig Wolf Run isn't winning the game?
I have gavony in my list but haven't really used it too much. Most of the time late game, I'm sinking my mana into cracking clues. But, whenever I play abzan company, another deck I am very proficient in, gavony just runs away with games. Therefore, I assume that gavony is just as good in this list but I just always have too much value going on to use it.
I also find that delver is a very easy matchup for us. Just find a path for their tasigur, trade your fliers for their flipped delvers and focus on getting to the late-game. We will win the late game, and their kill spells are nothing but a road bump if they don't have a clock on you. Be aware they can burn you out so be careful. Also, board in Izzet Staticaster for unflipped delvers and snapcasters.
I would recommend playing any green fetches and only green shocklands to fetch. This increase the consistency at which you will have green mana to play a turn 1 dork. Also helps with chord. Yes, I am saying don't run godless shrine or basic swamp, the plains is neccesary though. Also, I wouldn't play scattered groves for canopy, coming into play tapped is too huge a cost. Instead you get some Razorverge thickets as the best replacement. You could also consider additional temple gardens or fetches for the slot.
Obviously, making these upgrades would make the deck a lot better but I understand if you can't right now. (The verdants aren't actually neccesary so don't worry about getting them).
Abzan all day. Bant gets spell queller but while that's a good card, I don't think it's similar enough to our gameplan to be played.
Sorry man, been a busy couple days and haven't had much chance to get on here. The tournament ended up great, was 5-1 top seed going into top 8 before dropping a match to UW control. Usually a good matchup but he got everything he need and a Gideon AoZ that I couldn't answer both games.
For the finks combo, I definitely find it necessary to have in the deck. One of the strengths of the deck is having two combos to lean on, not to mention finks is a pretty good creature in general. I'm almost never disappointed to play a finks without comboing (unless it's like against tron of course). I would play 4 viziers anyways so that irrelevant. The seer can be a little awkward at times but it either wins me the game or eats a removal spell so it's generally not too bad. I don't run anafenza or redcap because they hurt the manabase a lot. Anafenza was the reason we had to run godless shrine before and I cannot stress to you how much I hate godless shrine in this deck with birds, nobles, and chords. Also, infinite life is usually good enough to secure a game or at least buy me time if they have outs.
As far as rallier goes, he's been kinda hit-or-miss for me too. The mantra I always remeber with him though is that at best he wins you the game by re animating a combo piece or sideboard card. At worst, he gets back a fetchland or canopy and leaves a reasonable body behind. I've had enough situations with him where he was amazing to warrant having him in the deck.
In conclusion, the knight list was fantastic this weekend for me and my friend. The kessig wolf run did kill some people, both infinitely and on normal boards. The knights also did a respectable job generating value and defending against large things, even killing folks. I also loved not having a Rhonas not doing anything every game. I love Rhonas but he rarely did much if I wasn't in a winning position sadly.
Secondly, me and my friend are going to a monthly modern event today and are playing my new build of abzan company which is a modified version of the knight of the reliquary plan. I've won two fnms so far with it and it feels so much better than before,with knight giving me much more versatility with both its size and searching for canopies, gavonies, and/or kessig. I'll post the list below. (Still can't figure out how to use that decklist feature on my ipad). Lingering souls has been a great board card against attrition style decks like shadow and abzan. It single handedly wins games (and has). I play the ninth fetch because of renegade rallier and knight of the reliquary. Ten would be the sweet spot, but I don't want to cut any of my other lands. 20 lands has not felt like too few at all either.
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
1 viscera seer
4 devoted druid
4 vizier of remedies
2 duskwatch recruiter
1 selfless spirit
1 walking ballista
4 knight of the reliquary
3 eternal witness
3 kitchen finks
2 renegade rallier
4 chord of calling
4 collected company
4 windswept Heath
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
2 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
2 forest
1 plains
2 horizon canopy
1 gavony township
1 kessig wolf run
Sideboard:
2 ethersworn canonist
1 phyrexian revoker
1 scavenging ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 kataki, war's wage
1 sin collector
1 orzhov pontiff
1 Linvala,keeper of silence
1 aven mindcensor
2 lingering souls
2 path to exile
1 abrupt decay
Clearly you've never played against living end, that is a worse matchup than tron. And the main reason I wanna play meddling mage.
The reason I want mage over eidolon is that mage is more useful in the matchups we need it, like tron, ad nauseam, and living end. Eidolon is great aginst control decks using snaps but remember eidolon restricts us too, meaning if we cast a spell and they counter it, we don't get another spell. Also, decks playing snap are already a very good matchup for us anyways. Also, hitting for two and coming down turn 2 instead of three is relevant since our curve is super packed on three already. Mage also has the potential to be good against random decks you may not expect to face where eidolon is a lot more restrictive in its ability to hate.
I have two bigger modern tourneys coming up in my area in the next two weekends and plan on playing the deck there with the mages added. Unfortunately, I won't have the element of surprise since everyone knows I play the deck by now (though I play it quite well, they may be afraid of it.) But MM will definitely get them, especially off a company since they can't respond once they see it.
My current sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Reflector Mage
3 Unified Will
4 Meddling Mage
I ended up cutting my 2 blessed alliance and 2 stony silence. Being a company deck, I find staying creature heavy helps a lot. Company finds your sideboard cards and you don't draw so many spells that you apply little pressure.
By the way, for the love of Nylea, can someone please tell me how to format a decklist on here so I don't have to manually type them out like above, I'm using a tablet if that's relevant.
I'm actually gonna order a playset myself. Now just to figure out if I want the Chris pikula art or the new shards one. Maybe two of each?
Gaddock Teeg and countermagic are great against tron, they have single-handedly won me games. I survived an emrakul swing once and swung lethal next turn because I didn't sac my Teeg that was stopping his karn coming down to hit my lethal knight.
Also, shock or push mainboard? I feel like push is a better removal spell but black is harder to come by than red in this deck. Sorry, I'm mainly a modern player trying to stay competitive in standard and the constant deck changes every week confuse how to properly build my deck.
In theory, all midrange decks have a poor matchup against tron. However, bant seems to be much better than abzan in my experience. I've played abzan company to several decent finishes and tron has always been a thorn (of amethyst) in my side, since you just have to get lucky there really. Whenever I play against tron with Bant however, I have a mainboard ghost quarter to help me stabilize while I beat their face in, and spell quellers to stop their maps/scryings/stirrings as well. It takes a little luck but you MUST interact with them and disrupt their plan. After sideboard, the matchup can seem trivial of you draw right. I have unified wills, Gaddock Teeg, and stony silence in my board. These cards are all stars against tron, unified will counters everything they have so I consider it better than negate since if you don't have creatures you're already losing. Gaddock Teeg has won me so many games since they bank on their Karns and ugins to win the game, protect him at all costs! Stony silence shuts off o-stone, maps and eggs, but also turns off your clues so plan accordingly. Selfless spirit is also great aginst o-stone and Pyroclasm effects (if those are still played). In short, tron is an okay matchup if you can interact with them. So choose bant to beat tron, but not abzan though I enjoy both decks immensely so don't let tron be your only decider.
I have gavony in my list but haven't really used it too much. Most of the time late game, I'm sinking my mana into cracking clues. But, whenever I play abzan company, another deck I am very proficient in, gavony just runs away with games. Therefore, I assume that gavony is just as good in this list but I just always have too much value going on to use it.
I also find that delver is a very easy matchup for us. Just find a path for their tasigur, trade your fliers for their flipped delvers and focus on getting to the late-game. We will win the late game, and their kill spells are nothing but a road bump if they don't have a clock on you. Be aware they can burn you out so be careful. Also, board in Izzet Staticaster for unflipped delvers and snapcasters.