how does protoss deal with a marine marauder ball before colossus?
Elaborate please? Because there are so many different ways of answering this question, depending on openings, maps, etc.
But from the way you phrase the question, it seems like you are talking about something like a 3 rax/reactor pressure after upgrades, or 5 rax all-in sort of play.
Try scouting it out, and make more warpgates depending on the situation (so don't just go 2 gate -> robo even when you see your opponent doing a 5 rax all-in). Also, try to use forcefields better, as that's often the key between losing in a flash when their army goes up your ramp, or holding off a wave of stimmed M&Ms at bay, while you gather units and shoot from the high ground. Also, you could try to trap half of the T's army through FFs.
Otherwise, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Just trade with Infect decks until they can't profitably use Untamed Might anymore.
Which is why I board in tons of 2/1s (those 1R or 1B for 2/1), or stuff like Salvage Scout that I left in the board, or even Nihil Spellbomb if I see at least 2 Corpse Curs. Boarding this way has at least salvaged 2 games where I thought my deck was definitely outclassed from the queues today.
The only problem in the infect deck then becomes Blight Mamba, Angler, and Cystbearer, so you have to try and save your removal spells for those when they come up.
Otherwise, just keep on trading, and you won't find Untamed Might being such huge problem anymore. Obviously, there are times where you can still get blown out if you didn't play carefully, but those chances becomes less and less when they don't have enough infect dudes on the board.
What are the points of these threads? I guess here, have a cyber pat on the back?
I mean, if the pool was difficult to build, that's fine, even if you cracked awesome rares, at least there will be some interesting discussions, but the deck isn't even hard to build, just play all the stuff you are suppose to play and it's done.
5 for 2/2 that dies and gives you another dude is great. But 5 for 2/2 that has a pretty good chance of whiffing is not. Yeah, you could potentially pop out a Wurmcoil Engine out of it, or you know, you can just draw the Wurmcoil Engine and play it in a few turns. Plus, there will be a bunch of times when you just pop out a bear or myr or something, add to that the chance of not getting anything, that's not kosher for 5 mana.
Maybe if my sealed deck has like 3 legitimate bomb creatures, then maybe, but I don't think I'd ever play him in drafts.
Taking away stim from Marauders is too harsh. Marauders without stim is actually a pretty bad unit, since they are so slow. I don't think taking away stim is the right way to go. Maybe damage nerf, maybe range, maybe limit slow to after factory upgrade (instead of nitro pack), but you can't take away the stim, that will make marauders actually overnerfed.
Or actually, change building's armor type from armored to "building" or something, so marauders don't just stim and raze a nexus in 5 secs.
As for 1 basing terrans, if you aren't preparing for an all-in, 3 rax/reactor is the best you can manage, since you still need money for upgrades, expos and tech, and MULEs are definitely the backbone of that build order. You simply can't get away with that without having 2 MULEs constantly mining your base (and like Amadi said, they can mine on a patch already being mined on, so they ignore saturation, which basically allow 1 base Terrans to operate like they were on 1.5 bases). MULEs are just too ridiculous for the investment, which is why every single Terran and their mothers go 15 Orbital.
Terrans win a 1v1 base race because their units are more powerful than either toss or zerg units in equal resources, not because of MULEs.
Off of 1 base, P can mine enough to support 4 gate max. While Terrans can support 3 rax + reactor and still get all their upgrades. That's 100% because of the MULEs. T's units are not more powerful off 1 base, they are only more powerful once you've fully upgraded them with stim, slow, shield and +1 (coincidentally, you will almost never see a Terran push out prior to their upgrades being finished, because their units can so easily be sliced through). That's a lot of extra money, all because of MULEs.
I also do agree that Marauders are slightly overpowered. But it looks like Blizz just refuses to nerf it. It's like, oh, Marauder drops are too good at sniping buildings? Let's buff the buildings and slow down the Medivacs. Marauders too good against roaches? Let's buff the roaches a bit with the +1 range. I mean, why don't they just nerf the Marauders? Seems like that's the unit that's causing the most amount of problems anyway. At least decrease the damage dealt from 10 + 10 to 8 + 8, or something.
5 power with Trample is pretty big, goes over all those x/1s so easily.
3 toughness is also no joke, as there aren't that many 3/xs in this set, or things that deal 3 damage.
And every once in a while, you get that sweek Sylvok Replica to just combo with the beast and wreck face.
Too bad I think he is only really useful in RG. Red has many removal spells that can bin opposing artifacts, as well as self sacrificing effects like Ferrovore, Barrage Ogre, Panic Spellbomb (very good with the beast), etc. Plus, 5 mana is a bit too much if you are only casting him as a 5/3 trampler, which is what he will be in many other archetypes (I mean, in white, your Arrests and Revoke Existences won't ever trigger him).
Hmm, I get the perception that we are talking past each other because we have different experiences. Being a long time BW player, it wasn't a standard practice that Zergs always got to expand first. In fact, 1 base play was fine for the longest time. It's only kind of recently (kind of), that fast expand builds became popularized in pro gaming, and so when SC2 came out, many of these things were carried over.
Now, I know SC2 and BW are not the same game, but I think the problem lies not within the cheese viability part, but rather, the MULE/Chronoboost concept. The existence of these 2 mechanics really means that Zergs HAVE to get a 2nd base. That's why a bunker rush to deny the 15 hatch is so potent, because 1 base vs 1 base, Terrans will always win just because of their MULEs (which I think is too good of a spell, seriously, 50 energy = 300 minerals? Who the heck thought this one up?).
I don't think making supply before rax just so Zergs can actually fast expand is the right fix to the 1 base vs 1 base problem (and the fix only really affects TvZ anyway). That's the general peeve I have with this fix (and the fact it's a fix meant to fix 2v2 TZ vs XX). Fix the MULE or something else. Don't take away an actual opening from Terran (I know you think proxy rax after depot can actually succeed, but I've tested it a few times, and the only map where it can actually work is on Steppes, a tiny 2 player map notorious for cheeses anyway, every other map it fails pretty hard, because marines just aren't that good if you delay them by 35 secs).
As for the Scrap Station proxy rax, I've seen it on TL's stream a couple of times, don't know if I can find the reps, but I think it was done by HasHe (a very good player, like 2k+ diamond), could be someone else, since the player didn't really talk when playing, so definitely not Gretorp. He basically lifted his CC to the middle island and had 2 SCVs proxying 2 barracks next to his P opponent, and so when his P opponent scouted, he didn't see a base, and assumed correctly that T went to the island, so P tried to tech to Stargate and got punished by 3 raxes worth of marines streaming to his base. This worked at least a couple of times, and he got a few guys. The correct response is obviously check for proxies and go 3 gate THEN Stargate, but if you have never seen this strategy, it's very easy to convince yourself that fast Stargate is the right move. This might still work, since apparently you build a depot before the raxes (you don't float until your 7th SCV, and you proxy the depot anyway). But other than a few quirky proxies like this, I don't think Terrans can really throw cheeses into BoX series to throw their opponent's off their games.
Amadi, I suggest you play some games as terran before you just conjecture. I've actually tried the new timings, and it just doesn't work. The fact that you haven't heard about the Scrap Station -> Float CC into 3 Proxy rax off of 2 unfloated SCVs vs P is a sign to me that you aren't that knowledgeable about terran builds. Now I credit you for being a good zerg player, and I don't doubt that you are a good player in general, but you really need to know all the early timings before you just conclude that terran cheese is now fully balanced with the new depot prereq. I mean, I don't know all the tricks zergs can pull in different maps, which is why I don't consider myself a good source of info for advanced zerg strats or analysis. But I play terran (I've never not played terran, even in BW, and cheeses from proxy rax are practically the same as in SC2, since all the units involved are practically the same, so I've dealt with this for at least 6 years) enough to say I'm at least a bit knowledgeable about these things.
Also, I can't believe you think Terran is so OP to the point where proxy marines from terran gives almost no drawbacks. It just doesn't work like that. Seriously, any decent player will be able to fend it off unless you bring at least a bunch of SCVs for support (so basically an all-in). 2 proxy rax with 2 SCVs will rarely work if your opponent is not greedy and just opens standard. Are you telling me that you've constantly lost to 8 rax -> bunker rush as a Zerg, or you know someone who just couldn't defend against proxy rax TvT or TvP at all? No, most people can defend against it, and only rarely will they lose when they improperly scout it/went a greedy build. I mean, if that was the case, everyone and their mothers will cheese every game as Terran, since it doesn't really have drawbacks, right?
That's why Blizz shouldn't have taken away the option for Terran to cheese, since it allows for more mindgames in BoX series.
First of all, I don't think it's fair just doing minerals and time analysis for Terran cheese. Proxy rax -> 2-3 Marines is pretty bad against any opponent higher than platinum. So to pull off a successful proxy rax, I'd always have to bring at least 6 SCVs and try to land a bunker at their base and posture/attack with my SCVs to get any sort of chance at winning. 6 pool or proxy gate doesn't have this problem, because 6 pool lings come too quickly, and zealots are pretty darn strong by themselves against worker surrounds.
Second, if I have to float my rax away because the rush failed, it's pretty much gg for me, at least if I'm against a T or a P. You can be sure that you will get 4 gated or 3 rax/hellion rushed to death very soon. So I don't think proxy rax is any less riskier than proxy gate. You might not lose the minerals immediately, but floating rax can't produce anything (might as well be dead), and while you might not lose the game immediately, but rest assured you will lose.
Now, proxy rax might have been a bit too good against Zergs, but I don't think having depot before rax is the way to solve it. If anything, have bunker salvage give you only 50% (or some percentage) of your minerals back so they can't profitably deny you of your expansion without costing themselves valuable early resources.
Now, you actually just can't pull off cheese as a Terran anymore. What can I do, 8 depot, 8 rax? Anyone platinum or above will be able to scout me with the extra 35 secs and react, and I will lose.
Maybe you can do a variation on Scrap Station or something, getting 3 proxy rax after floating to the island and timing push them when they rush for drops or air units. But that's hardly the norm.
I think they just went about this the wrong way, particularly since the reasoning behind it was because of proxy rax, rax, depot -> mass reapers + lings in 2v2 play was getting out of hand. Don't have 2v2 play style encroaching on 1v1 balance, that's just retarded.
The problem I have with Terran getting the depot prereq is that now Terran can't cheese any more. I know many people are like, yay, no more cheese. But you basically took away a valid opening strategy, and took away the potential for mindgames in BoX series. And the problem for Rax, Rax, Depot was 2v2 games anyway, blizzard should have found another way around this instead of having it affect 1v1 play.
Should have just nerfed the marauders. But not take away their stim. Marauders without stim is actually a pretty useless unit. Just nerf their health or damage by a bit and it should have been fine.
The reason behind the reaper nerf, as well as the depot before rax I've heard, is because in 2v2, TZ vs anything becomes so ridiculous when you go reaper/lings off of Rax, Rax, Depot.
But it's 2v2!!! Don't change the game just for 2v2's sake and then have it have a huge impact on 1v1!!! Seriously, I'm so pissed at the depot before rax change, it was so ridiculous I actually didn't think they were being serious.
Void Ray also seems to be nerfed beyond oblivion. Didn't really need to go that far imo.
Everything else seems fine. Though the Nexus with 1000/1000 is weird when CC/Hatch are both 1500. I guess you can repair the CC and heal the Hatch with queens, but then again, shields regen pretty fast.
Yeah, I actually like singleton formats too, but pauper is just so damn cheap (though I did have to sell a Jace TMS for a playset of Daze, Gush, and some older stuff when WWK just came out, but these situations are anomalies), and the prize payout is pretty darn good for such low investment.
Though recently pauper has been getting stale for me, which is why I'm playing more PREs for extended and standard pauper. The card pools rotate often, and so you don't get bored playing against the same 6-7 archetypes every week.
Elaborate please? Because there are so many different ways of answering this question, depending on openings, maps, etc.
But from the way you phrase the question, it seems like you are talking about something like a 3 rax/reactor pressure after upgrades, or 5 rax all-in sort of play.
Try scouting it out, and make more warpgates depending on the situation (so don't just go 2 gate -> robo even when you see your opponent doing a 5 rax all-in). Also, try to use forcefields better, as that's often the key between losing in a flash when their army goes up your ramp, or holding off a wave of stimmed M&Ms at bay, while you gather units and shoot from the high ground. Also, you could try to trap half of the T's army through FFs.
Otherwise, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Which is why I board in tons of 2/1s (those 1R or 1B for 2/1), or stuff like Salvage Scout that I left in the board, or even Nihil Spellbomb if I see at least 2 Corpse Curs. Boarding this way has at least salvaged 2 games where I thought my deck was definitely outclassed from the queues today.
The only problem in the infect deck then becomes Blight Mamba, Angler, and Cystbearer, so you have to try and save your removal spells for those when they come up.
Otherwise, just keep on trading, and you won't find Untamed Might being such huge problem anymore. Obviously, there are times where you can still get blown out if you didn't play carefully, but those chances becomes less and less when they don't have enough infect dudes on the board.
I mean, if the pool was difficult to build, that's fine, even if you cracked awesome rares, at least there will be some interesting discussions, but the deck isn't even hard to build, just play all the stuff you are suppose to play and it's done.
Maybe if my sealed deck has like 3 legitimate bomb creatures, then maybe, but I don't think I'd ever play him in drafts.
Or actually, change building's armor type from armored to "building" or something, so marauders don't just stim and raze a nexus in 5 secs.
As for 1 basing terrans, if you aren't preparing for an all-in, 3 rax/reactor is the best you can manage, since you still need money for upgrades, expos and tech, and MULEs are definitely the backbone of that build order. You simply can't get away with that without having 2 MULEs constantly mining your base (and like Amadi said, they can mine on a patch already being mined on, so they ignore saturation, which basically allow 1 base Terrans to operate like they were on 1.5 bases). MULEs are just too ridiculous for the investment, which is why every single Terran and their mothers go 15 Orbital.
Off of 1 base, P can mine enough to support 4 gate max. While Terrans can support 3 rax + reactor and still get all their upgrades. That's 100% because of the MULEs. T's units are not more powerful off 1 base, they are only more powerful once you've fully upgraded them with stim, slow, shield and +1 (coincidentally, you will almost never see a Terran push out prior to their upgrades being finished, because their units can so easily be sliced through). That's a lot of extra money, all because of MULEs.
I also do agree that Marauders are slightly overpowered. But it looks like Blizz just refuses to nerf it. It's like, oh, Marauder drops are too good at sniping buildings? Let's buff the buildings and slow down the Medivacs. Marauders too good against roaches? Let's buff the roaches a bit with the +1 range. I mean, why don't they just nerf the Marauders? Seems like that's the unit that's causing the most amount of problems anyway. At least decrease the damage dealt from 10 + 10 to 8 + 8, or something.
5 power with Trample is pretty big, goes over all those x/1s so easily.
3 toughness is also no joke, as there aren't that many 3/xs in this set, or things that deal 3 damage.
And every once in a while, you get that sweek Sylvok Replica to just combo with the beast and wreck face.
Too bad I think he is only really useful in RG. Red has many removal spells that can bin opposing artifacts, as well as self sacrificing effects like Ferrovore, Barrage Ogre, Panic Spellbomb (very good with the beast), etc. Plus, 5 mana is a bit too much if you are only casting him as a 5/3 trampler, which is what he will be in many other archetypes (I mean, in white, your Arrests and Revoke Existences won't ever trigger him).
Now, I know SC2 and BW are not the same game, but I think the problem lies not within the cheese viability part, but rather, the MULE/Chronoboost concept. The existence of these 2 mechanics really means that Zergs HAVE to get a 2nd base. That's why a bunker rush to deny the 15 hatch is so potent, because 1 base vs 1 base, Terrans will always win just because of their MULEs (which I think is too good of a spell, seriously, 50 energy = 300 minerals? Who the heck thought this one up?).
I don't think making supply before rax just so Zergs can actually fast expand is the right fix to the 1 base vs 1 base problem (and the fix only really affects TvZ anyway). That's the general peeve I have with this fix (and the fact it's a fix meant to fix 2v2 TZ vs XX). Fix the MULE or something else. Don't take away an actual opening from Terran (I know you think proxy rax after depot can actually succeed, but I've tested it a few times, and the only map where it can actually work is on Steppes, a tiny 2 player map notorious for cheeses anyway, every other map it fails pretty hard, because marines just aren't that good if you delay them by 35 secs).
As for the Scrap Station proxy rax, I've seen it on TL's stream a couple of times, don't know if I can find the reps, but I think it was done by HasHe (a very good player, like 2k+ diamond), could be someone else, since the player didn't really talk when playing, so definitely not Gretorp. He basically lifted his CC to the middle island and had 2 SCVs proxying 2 barracks next to his P opponent, and so when his P opponent scouted, he didn't see a base, and assumed correctly that T went to the island, so P tried to tech to Stargate and got punished by 3 raxes worth of marines streaming to his base. This worked at least a couple of times, and he got a few guys. The correct response is obviously check for proxies and go 3 gate THEN Stargate, but if you have never seen this strategy, it's very easy to convince yourself that fast Stargate is the right move. This might still work, since apparently you build a depot before the raxes (you don't float until your 7th SCV, and you proxy the depot anyway). But other than a few quirky proxies like this, I don't think Terrans can really throw cheeses into BoX series to throw their opponent's off their games.
Also, I can't believe you think Terran is so OP to the point where proxy marines from terran gives almost no drawbacks. It just doesn't work like that. Seriously, any decent player will be able to fend it off unless you bring at least a bunch of SCVs for support (so basically an all-in). 2 proxy rax with 2 SCVs will rarely work if your opponent is not greedy and just opens standard. Are you telling me that you've constantly lost to 8 rax -> bunker rush as a Zerg, or you know someone who just couldn't defend against proxy rax TvT or TvP at all? No, most people can defend against it, and only rarely will they lose when they improperly scout it/went a greedy build. I mean, if that was the case, everyone and their mothers will cheese every game as Terran, since it doesn't really have drawbacks, right?
That's why Blizz shouldn't have taken away the option for Terran to cheese, since it allows for more mindgames in BoX series.
Second, if I have to float my rax away because the rush failed, it's pretty much gg for me, at least if I'm against a T or a P. You can be sure that you will get 4 gated or 3 rax/hellion rushed to death very soon. So I don't think proxy rax is any less riskier than proxy gate. You might not lose the minerals immediately, but floating rax can't produce anything (might as well be dead), and while you might not lose the game immediately, but rest assured you will lose.
Now, proxy rax might have been a bit too good against Zergs, but I don't think having depot before rax is the way to solve it. If anything, have bunker salvage give you only 50% (or some percentage) of your minerals back so they can't profitably deny you of your expansion without costing themselves valuable early resources.
Now, you actually just can't pull off cheese as a Terran anymore. What can I do, 8 depot, 8 rax? Anyone platinum or above will be able to scout me with the extra 35 secs and react, and I will lose.
Maybe you can do a variation on Scrap Station or something, getting 3 proxy rax after floating to the island and timing push them when they rush for drops or air units. But that's hardly the norm.
I think they just went about this the wrong way, particularly since the reasoning behind it was because of proxy rax, rax, depot -> mass reapers + lings in 2v2 play was getting out of hand. Don't have 2v2 play style encroaching on 1v1 balance, that's just retarded.
Should have just nerfed the marauders. But not take away their stim. Marauders without stim is actually a pretty useless unit. Just nerf their health or damage by a bit and it should have been fine.
But it's 2v2!!! Don't change the game just for 2v2's sake and then have it have a huge impact on 1v1!!! Seriously, I'm so pissed at the depot before rax change, it was so ridiculous I actually didn't think they were being serious.
Void Ray also seems to be nerfed beyond oblivion. Didn't really need to go that far imo.
Everything else seems fine. Though the Nexus with 1000/1000 is weird when CC/Hatch are both 1500. I guess you can repair the CC and heal the Hatch with queens, but then again, shields regen pretty fast.
Though recently pauper has been getting stale for me, which is why I'm playing more PREs for extended and standard pauper. The card pools rotate often, and so you don't get bored playing against the same 6-7 archetypes every week.