I really wanted to like the "tech" of Manriki-gusari vs. other equipment decks, particularly the mirror, but after playing a couple tournaments with it, it seems suboptimal.
It's slow, requiring an untapped creatures that isn't doing anything else, like attacking or vialing in equipment.
It's not the equipment you want to be fetching with SFM.
It's very narrow and isn't a good answer versus anything else.
For that reason, I think going over to a Disenchant effect (particularly, say Dismantling Blow) is what I'm going to run from now on. If equipment never becomes relevant, at least I can answer a Sylvan Library or even weird stuff like a Bridge or something.
I'm confused, isn't fishing DQable? It seems obvious this was his intention...
No, trying to get your opponent a penalty isn't DQable. It may be Unsporting Conduct -- and this example certainly sounds deserving of it -- but that starts at Warnings at Competitive REL, unless it's severe or aggressive. Regular REL tournaments are now governed by loose guidelines and recommendations rather than penalty categories per se. This still definitely falls under "unwanted behaviour" and so a judge or TO should be "educating" him. Firmly.
National Invites : 1 Invite with airfare
So wizards provides the airfare and the invite but thats it. So we would be responsible for the other prizes and judge fees.
It seems like the stores around Vancouver were getting called by their WotC reps today. The store I judge at got their event set up, and other judges were telling me the same thing. I don't think any stores get to run multiple dates, as I think the idea is to spread it around.
While thinking through a previous post, I realized, why aren't we discussing the reasons why people who would like to, DON'T PTQ?
I think that's a good question -- and it's probably one where we need to hear from lots of people before we'd really know. Without hearing exact reasons, we could try list them all and figure out how important they are.
You've listed a couple important ones.. there are more...
1) Schedule conflict -- I don't have time that day for whatever reason
2) It's too far away
3) The PTQ is -EV for me, either in terms of prizes or Chapinesque "value"
I like the ideas around 1 and 2, but I also think the idea of providing "value" at a tournament could be expanded on. There might be TOs who have to work on basic things like getting a good venue and lining up good judging/scorekeeping staff. Past that, maybe we need to think about running events along-side, like a mini-mini-GP. One poster talked about better prizes for the PTQ, but maybe running "win-a-box" or "win-a-Ipad" tournaments to spice up the day could improve the value associated with the event.
Locally, we try run something fun like a 2HG event (with a cake prize) or whatever once the 0-2 drops are out. In different markets, a specific type of tournament might best -- legacy or whatever.
And hey, maybe prizes could be improved a little. 10% is 10% right? And maybe there are places with really bad prizes that really need to think about improving them.
Finally, one last reason I hear from a lot of players who now content themselves with other circuits of play. "I went to a PTQ and <insert rules-lawyery/jerkish-type-story> and now I'll never go again." We can all be better ambassadors for competitive Magic.
Let's hear more reasons why people don't go to PTQs.
That'd be fine except that you stated in that post that you knew you were putting him at L-1.
You keep saying we need to go by behavior, get more information, make final decisions, but then you never provide any content of your own. Where's your case on me, for example?
I made a mistake in thinking L1 was acceptable claim-range. Honestly, why are you even playing in a basic? If you're just going to be rude and badger everyone... they are levels, even for mafia.
This has been the most unpleasant game of mafia I've ever played and the only reason I haven't left is to spare Ged looking for another replacement. And honestly, the game should wrap up pretty quickly.
I won't be responding to any more of your posts so don't bother. To quote you... what's the point in wasting the time?
This is AR's worst post in this game. He's finally realized he's not going to be able to move on khorney, so he latches onto efyew as a possible target. That might even be OK if not for the fact that he knew L-2 was claim range, and he knew he was putting efyew at L-1, and he did it anyway. Absolutely no cause for that.
I've already explained my opinion on khorney: his play before I arrived was very scummy. I wasn't continuing my predecessor's attacks, I was taking a legitimate read over the thread.
Again, I have to take issue with Zindabad's objections to my actions in this particular way. I thought khorney was scummy, and wanted to question him about why he did something. It turns out he made up a name from the survivors.
I then acted against the next person who looked scummy. By the way, people had some pretty legit things to say about efyew, which all got 'wiped away' with his claim which I don't believe has yet been verified. Zindabad "doesn't want to hear about him being scum" but I'd like to see at least something verifiable before I stake the game on it.
The L-1 one thing was an accident... the last votecount was a couple pages back and I messed up. It's pretty lame, and Zindabad will obviously continue to read it as a play for a mislynch, but really, doesn't that put me and the hammerer in a REALLY bad spot? Scum can't trade 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 with townies.
Regarding plans, I'd like to go day by day, although with a commitment from our presumed tracker to provide something verifiable on himself and RO, although we possibly lock ourselves into a dangerous game of he-said, he-said. I think tomorrow leaves us with more information and we can make final decisions about whose towniness we can stake the game on.
Of course, as I said, this almost entirely hinges on blue... if he's convinced he's going to settle things with his vig tonight and possibly the next night, if there is one.
Replaces in for Exsam and starts off with an attack on another confirmed townie.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=549]
[spoiler=581]
He's continuing to question the uncounterclaimed doc (I know he wasn't really the doc, but this demonstrates AR's non townie frame of mind) and if I'm honest it's quite obvious why a doc would have protected blue on N1. [/spoiler]
It's all fine and well to say khorney is a confirmed townie now, but that's 100% hindsight. Did you actually bother reading him? His play was soooo scummy.
You also have an opportunistic double standard. I wanted to know why he made a particular play (I actually thought cantripmancer was a more helpful player at that point, and more obviously going to die). Apparently asking this one question goes over the boundary for you. However, later on when I don't have more questions for another claimed role, then you think I should have "stuck by my convictions." Really? Let me guess, if I had asked him a question you would have claimed I was badgering a claimed power role?
You keep claiming to have some superior powers of logic, but I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing typical self-serving scum play.
vote: zindabad
I feel like we're going in circles here. Given all these plans hinge on blue being convinced one way or another, I have to ask, are you?
Or are we mainly waiting for efyew to agree to track tonight?
The problem I have with these plans (and I've been going over them and working out the various cases) is that they rely on the person posting them to be town.
Unfortunately, Eric Draven's is no different. His leaves blue, RO, and Eric alive. As he says, assuming there's only one scum in those three, the town can't lose. However, if two of those people (ie non-blue) are scum, then they win.
That leaves me not wanting to go through with a plan that vigs someone tonight. I think we're in good enough shape that we can do that.
The rest of the plan, where we gather information, works fine. efyew (assuming he's around still? prod maybe?) tracks RO and can then still tell us what happened. If he gets NK'ed, that still leaves our vig alive.
It just seems like we have more margin for error that way, rather than committing to a plan that plays out nicely... if the planner is town.
Instead of trying to agreeing on a plan that locks us into an end-game, why not stay a little more flexible? It seems clear we're not ready to decide everything yet, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
What I am about to prove is that the town will not lose if they fail to lynch me today.
You start by saying you're going to prove the town can leave you alive today: then you conclude that you're not scum and that everyone can trust you. In fact, there are holes in your so-called logic and leaps that indicate people should actually NOT trust you.
ME AND ED: If I'm scum and r_0 isn't, that means r_0 is telling the truth about his role. That means the scum have a power role, which is probably a roleblocker. If that's the case, why didn't I hammer r_0 when he was at L-1? With him out of the way, we could've comfortably roleblocked blue and killed efyew for the win. I was online and still talking about lynching AR when r_0 was at L-1. Why didn't I kill him?
WIFOM. Maybe you didn't think of it at the time, or more likely, judging from your analytical style of play, you didn't want the quick hammer to make you look bad. Regardless of the efficacy of the play, you'd rather use town consensus because you believe you can make it happen anyways. This makes you look better. So this doesn't really eliminate this pairing at all.
So that's my first point proven, which is that I am not scum. I realize the only way you will know this for sure is when you see my alignment in the first post (aka, when I'm dead or the game ends), so I will accede to being vigged tonight if necessary. But you cannot lynch me today. We have to lynch scum today. That means we have to lynch AR today.
What? That's a funny thing to claim your analysis of those pairings proved.
In fact, if they proved anything at all, they prove that you could well be scum with someone else. The 'you and AR' pairing and 'you and RO' pairing just indicate you could be left alive one more day.
This leap from "I could live another day" to "I'm not scum" is an overreaching claim from the points you've argued, and now I'm sure you're scum.
In my next post, I will explain in much greater detail why AR is scum. But in the meantime, suffice to say that we must lynch him today because it cannot harm us.
I'm sure you're be making convincing arguments like this tomorrow too.
The only viable scum pairing that allows AR to be town is ED and r_0. But if r_0 is scum, that means there's no mafia power role, which means blue can vig r_0 without any trouble and we can play on tomorrow.
Or the Zindabad and RO pairing. Or -- less likely but possible -- RO is telling the truth and efyew is lying about his role.
You didn't eliminate those, but make this claim anyways. Of course, you'd claim the Zindabad and RO pairing isn't viable, but that's not logic, it's just something you'd obviously say!
In the end, all I'm seeing here is an attempt to manipulate everyone. You should be the lynch today.
R_O and Zindabad were my scum-list going in. Now R_O has claimed Bodyguard, and while I've pretty much revoked my faith in power role claims (except for the vig, obviously), it's something we can test out. That puts Zindabad to the top, for me.
I agree, Zindabad is sounding strangely desperate. He laid out his "two-step plan" for victory and thought he had a slam dunk, but now that it people are starting to ask questions and hunt scum rather than just believe his story, it's getting much worse for him.
After Zindabad's accusation's about content I went and looked back. Besides his first post where he summarizes what went on before, almost all his posts are one-liners and comments about obviousness. Not exactly compelling. Unless he knows something we don't? Like his predecessor accidentally claimed.
Carso87 has only a few posts, but I got a strong scum vibe from rubin8r actually. About three times he made statements like "I KNOW I'm town" and "Well, you can cross me off your list, I'm town". It seemed like he was trying too hard.
Then in another post he said about someone "I know he isn't fishing because I know he's town" which seems like a scum-slip to me.
Zindabad's aggressive and opportunistic play in the last little while makes me think he's one of the last two scum. I'm seeing RO and Zindabad as the remaining two.
This last post of his paints a pretty picture of the next two lynches, which neatly fits into a win for him. He's been spending a lot of time shaping popular opinion, and I think people should be going back to make their own estimations rather than relying on his, because his narrative of how this is all going to play out is very good for him and he sounds too eager to make it happen.
I am also getting quite dubious of all the power role claims going around, but I think we can leave evaluation of the remaining claims until tomorrow.
It's slow, requiring an untapped creatures that isn't doing anything else, like attacking or vialing in equipment.
It's not the equipment you want to be fetching with SFM.
It's very narrow and isn't a good answer versus anything else.
For that reason, I think going over to a Disenchant effect (particularly, say Dismantling Blow) is what I'm going to run from now on. If equipment never becomes relevant, at least I can answer a Sylvan Library or even weird stuff like a Bridge or something.
No, trying to get your opponent a penalty isn't DQable. It may be Unsporting Conduct -- and this example certainly sounds deserving of it -- but that starts at Warnings at Competitive REL, unless it's severe or aggressive. Regular REL tournaments are now governed by loose guidelines and recommendations rather than penalty categories per se. This still definitely falls under "unwanted behaviour" and so a judge or TO should be "educating" him. Firmly.
Vancouver L2 Judge
Err... Can you confirm this? Anyone else?
I think that's a good question -- and it's probably one where we need to hear from lots of people before we'd really know. Without hearing exact reasons, we could try list them all and figure out how important they are.
You've listed a couple important ones.. there are more...
1) Schedule conflict -- I don't have time that day for whatever reason
2) It's too far away
3) The PTQ is -EV for me, either in terms of prizes or Chapinesque "value"
I like the ideas around 1 and 2, but I also think the idea of providing "value" at a tournament could be expanded on. There might be TOs who have to work on basic things like getting a good venue and lining up good judging/scorekeeping staff. Past that, maybe we need to think about running events along-side, like a mini-mini-GP. One poster talked about better prizes for the PTQ, but maybe running "win-a-box" or "win-a-Ipad" tournaments to spice up the day could improve the value associated with the event.
Locally, we try run something fun like a 2HG event (with a cake prize) or whatever once the 0-2 drops are out. In different markets, a specific type of tournament might best -- legacy or whatever.
And hey, maybe prizes could be improved a little. 10% is 10% right? And maybe there are places with really bad prizes that really need to think about improving them.
Finally, one last reason I hear from a lot of players who now content themselves with other circuits of play. "I went to a PTQ and <insert rules-lawyery/jerkish-type-story> and now I'll never go again." We can all be better ambassadors for competitive Magic.
Let's hear more reasons why people don't go to PTQs.
I made a mistake in thinking L1 was acceptable claim-range. Honestly, why are you even playing in a basic? If you're just going to be rude and badger everyone... they are levels, even for mafia.
This has been the most unpleasant game of mafia I've ever played and the only reason I haven't left is to spare Ged looking for another replacement. And honestly, the game should wrap up pretty quickly.
I won't be responding to any more of your posts so don't bother. To quote you... what's the point in wasting the time?
I've already explained my opinion on khorney: his play before I arrived was very scummy. I wasn't continuing my predecessor's attacks, I was taking a legitimate read over the thread.
Again, I have to take issue with Zindabad's objections to my actions in this particular way. I thought khorney was scummy, and wanted to question him about why he did something. It turns out he made up a name from the survivors.
I then acted against the next person who looked scummy. By the way, people had some pretty legit things to say about efyew, which all got 'wiped away' with his claim which I don't believe has yet been verified. Zindabad "doesn't want to hear about him being scum" but I'd like to see at least something verifiable before I stake the game on it.
The L-1 one thing was an accident... the last votecount was a couple pages back and I messed up. It's pretty lame, and Zindabad will obviously continue to read it as a play for a mislynch, but really, doesn't that put me and the hammerer in a REALLY bad spot? Scum can't trade 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 with townies.
Regarding plans, I'd like to go day by day, although with a commitment from our presumed tracker to provide something verifiable on himself and RO, although we possibly lock ourselves into a dangerous game of he-said, he-said. I think tomorrow leaves us with more information and we can make final decisions about whose towniness we can stake the game on.
Of course, as I said, this almost entirely hinges on blue... if he's convinced he's going to settle things with his vig tonight and possibly the next night, if there is one.
It's all fine and well to say khorney is a confirmed townie now, but that's 100% hindsight. Did you actually bother reading him? His play was soooo scummy.
You also have an opportunistic double standard. I wanted to know why he made a particular play (I actually thought cantripmancer was a more helpful player at that point, and more obviously going to die). Apparently asking this one question goes over the boundary for you. However, later on when I don't have more questions for another claimed role, then you think I should have "stuck by my convictions." Really? Let me guess, if I had asked him a question you would have claimed I was badgering a claimed power role?
You keep claiming to have some superior powers of logic, but I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing typical self-serving scum play.
vote: zindabad
I feel like we're going in circles here. Given all these plans hinge on blue being convinced one way or another, I have to ask, are you?
Or are we mainly waiting for efyew to agree to track tonight?
Unfortunately, Eric Draven's is no different. His leaves blue, RO, and Eric alive. As he says, assuming there's only one scum in those three, the town can't lose. However, if two of those people (ie non-blue) are scum, then they win.
That leaves me not wanting to go through with a plan that vigs someone tonight. I think we're in good enough shape that we can do that.
The rest of the plan, where we gather information, works fine. efyew (assuming he's around still? prod maybe?) tracks RO and can then still tell us what happened. If he gets NK'ed, that still leaves our vig alive.
It just seems like we have more margin for error that way, rather than committing to a plan that plays out nicely... if the planner is town.
Instead of trying to agreeing on a plan that locks us into an end-game, why not stay a little more flexible? It seems clear we're not ready to decide everything yet, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You start by saying you're going to prove the town can leave you alive today: then you conclude that you're not scum and that everyone can trust you. In fact, there are holes in your so-called logic and leaps that indicate people should actually NOT trust you.
WIFOM. Maybe you didn't think of it at the time, or more likely, judging from your analytical style of play, you didn't want the quick hammer to make you look bad. Regardless of the efficacy of the play, you'd rather use town consensus because you believe you can make it happen anyways. This makes you look better. So this doesn't really eliminate this pairing at all.
What? That's a funny thing to claim your analysis of those pairings proved.
In fact, if they proved anything at all, they prove that you could well be scum with someone else. The 'you and AR' pairing and 'you and RO' pairing just indicate you could be left alive one more day.
This leap from "I could live another day" to "I'm not scum" is an overreaching claim from the points you've argued, and now I'm sure you're scum.
I'm sure you're be making convincing arguments like this tomorrow too.
Or the Zindabad and RO pairing. Or -- less likely but possible -- RO is telling the truth and efyew is lying about his role.
You didn't eliminate those, but make this claim anyways. Of course, you'd claim the Zindabad and RO pairing isn't viable, but that's not logic, it's just something you'd obviously say!
In the end, all I'm seeing here is an attempt to manipulate everyone. You should be the lynch today.
If Eric's scum, he gets an award.
Hearing from efyew would be good, as you say.
unvote
After Zindabad's accusation's about content I went and looked back. Besides his first post where he summarizes what went on before, almost all his posts are one-liners and comments about obviousness. Not exactly compelling. Unless he knows something we don't? Like his predecessor accidentally claimed.
Carso87 has only a few posts, but I got a strong scum vibe from rubin8r actually. About three times he made statements like "I KNOW I'm town" and "Well, you can cross me off your list, I'm town". It seemed like he was trying too hard.
Then in another post he said about someone "I know he isn't fishing because I know he's town" which seems like a scum-slip to me.
This last post of his paints a pretty picture of the next two lynches, which neatly fits into a win for him. He's been spending a lot of time shaping popular opinion, and I think people should be going back to make their own estimations rather than relying on his, because his narrative of how this is all going to play out is very good for him and he sounds too eager to make it happen.
I am also getting quite dubious of all the power role claims going around, but I think we can leave evaluation of the remaining claims until tomorrow.
For that reason:
unvote
vote Zindabad