MTG Salvation

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Quote from RedGauntlet »

I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.

Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.

There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.

What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?

Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.

Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.

Your nitpicking is factually wrong. CHK/RAV had Enduring Ideal combo, and Lorwyn/Shards had the Seismic Swans combo. While it's true that Innistrad/RTR had no combos on it, it was more because their active decision to not allow combo on Standard. It's the lack of answers that is a problem, not the proficiency of threats.

Combo ~= Broken Combo.

My argument remains the same.

Edit: Also, Enduring Ideal wasn't a combo deck. It was a ramp deck. You didn't combo Ideal with anything. You just cast it and searched for other enchantments based on the game state. It's similar to Scapeshift or Standard Valakut. There's a small argument they are "combo" decks, but in reality, they are just ramp decks with different win conditions.

Quote from RedGauntlet »

Quote from jturphy »

Quote from RedGauntlet »

I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.

Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.

Thats incopetence. Nothing to do with what i said.

You want powerful cards in normal blocks, which would mean Standard. How does my response not have anything to do with what you said. We already know from history that Standards with overly powerful cards and broken combos are horrendous and have horrible attendance (Mirrodin, CawBlade/Splinter Twin/Valakut Standard and current Standard).

You want to be able to buy cards for cheap no matter what it does to the game.

Quote from Blueberrybagel »

Quote from jturphy »

Quote from RedGauntlet »

I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.

Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.

There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.

What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?

Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.

Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.

Quote from RedGauntlet »

I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.

Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.

Quote from The Greendale Human Being »

Quote from SonofaBith »

Took 15 mins to go from $3 to $8, and another 15 mins to go from $8 to $13. Managed to snag 2 from StrikeZoneOnline for $3 apiece.

EDIT: well, I HAD purchased 2 copies at $3 from StrikeZoneOnline, before they cancelled on my as "out of stock". Last time I buy from them. Pissed me off too, I didn't buy these to flip, but to use. Also, at the time I could have bought from other sellers at $6 but didn't, now that ship has sailed.

I'm sure it doesn't make you feel any better, but from what I understand talking to some friends who run LGS's and sell through Crystal Commerce (which SZO does iirc), they have very poor inventory coordination mechanisms which causes issues like this to happen with some degree of regularity when things spike. The orders end up canceled automatically later on when Crystal Commerce reconciles the inventory. I know a few owners who get frustrated because they get hate mail from people accusing them of canceling because of the spike.

Not saying no owners do that and not saying it's definitely a Crystal Commerce issue in this case, but knowing that made me more forgiving about this kind of thing.

Using software that you know doesn't take these issues into account, and not paying attention to your inventory on ban day is not an excuse for poor business practices. In fact, those are poor business practices, which they compound by then cancelling orders because of their own poor business practices. They deserve every bit of bad publicity that comes doing this, and no one should understand or feel sorry for them.

Quote from orlouge82 »

LOL at all the people saying this is a bulk Mythic. It's Time Walk for 2R. There are a million ways around the "you lose the game" effect.

EDIT:
Excuse me, I misspoke. It's Time Walk AND Counterspell mashed into one card for 2R.

That was my thought. This is the most Mythic card I've seen in a long time. It's a better version of Final Fortune.

Quote from Anara_of_the_Old_Ways »

Quote from kpal »

Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.

ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:

• Standard
• Limited
• Sealed
• Block
• Duel Commander
• Multiplayer Commander
• Pauper
• Pauper Highlander
• Pauper Commander
• Peasant
• Peasant Highlander
• Peasant Commander
• Horde
• Tiny Leader
• Frontier
• Modern
• Legacy
• Vintage
• Two-Headed Giant
• Emperor
• Cube
• Casual

Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.

Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.

Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?

Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.

Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.

This is just wrong. They frequently design cards for specific formats, including Standard. They also rarely test newer cards in older formats. They test some for Modern, and have printed cards specifically for Modern, but if it wasn't designed with Modern in mind, they do very little testing for it. Nearly all of their time is spent on Standard and Limited, and for other formats, it is largely based on theory crafting.

Quote from SC1987 »

Quote from lueg »

I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).

As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.

If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.

Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.

Quote from LordOrgodemir »

Quote from jturphy »

Quote from SC1987 »

Quote from LordOrgodemir »

Quote from orlouge82 »

Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.

And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.

No one remembers flashback or something?

Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U

The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.

Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.

If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.

You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?

Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.

Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings

The two flashbacks you left out, which went on to be standard and modern staples, as well as defining archetypes, Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls, beg to differ.

Point to where I said flashback cards were always better when their flashback cost was higher. I pointed out where you said the opposite which I already proved untrue.

Edit:

Which of these two cards is better? Lingering Souls or 1W: Put two 1/1 Flying Spirits into play. Flashback 2B.

Maybe the fact that the flashback was cheap on Lingering Souls isn't what made it good.

This was exactly my thought. Half of this thread is "Standard is too powerful" and the other half wants Hero's Downfall with card advantage and graveyard hate tacked on for 1 extra Mana.

No Standard bannings seems bad. I guess waiting until the Pro-tour isn't completely unreasonable.

Glad they didn't ban anything in modern. Death's Shadow decks might reach bannable levels at some point, but we are no where near there yet. Honestly, I think another dredge banning would be more reasonable than a DS ban at this point.

Neutral on no unbannings in Modern. The main problem with the format right now is that blue and white are significantly weaker than the other 3 colors. A Jace unban would likely be an OVER correction, and a SFM unban probably isn't worth the risk.

Re: Legacy, RIP top. You will not be missed. I think a T1.5 pr T2 control deck will emerge. The problem is, why would anyone play Uxx control without counter-top? Now you have to, and Imagine the deck will still be powerful. It won't be T0.8 like Miracles was, but thems the breaks boys. You enjoyed your fun for long enough.

Don't play Vintage. Gush almost seemed like one of the big draws to play vintage and what made it unique, but Vintage is probably the only format that they actually have definitive data on, since it has to be almost exclusively played online.

Anyway, I don't actually PLAY standard, but the health of Standard is actually really important for the health of magic as a whole. So I'm a little concerned but other than that good list.

Yeah. It was miserable there too.

Prove me wrong, friend.

Quote from cantspeak »

Turn 4: do it again and laugh while you cry because you don't have any removal left (Ps the cards you are trying to talk about are called Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Fatal Push and Dismember)

Trying to correct someone about format staples when they have a better grasp on the format than you do is hilarious.

Every Magical Christmasland scenario described for this card involves jumping through multiple hoops, having multiple precise cards in hand, and still typically doesn't do anything until turn 3 or 4. Look at the decks that are played in Modern:
Death's Shadow runs 8 targeted discard spells in its main deck and will typically both use one and have a 5 power creature in play by turn 2.
Abzan and Jund run 6+, plus 12+ removal spells for this guy to fiht through before doing anything.
Dredge and affinity often have 12 power on board turn 3, which other decks need to be able to interact with or race.
Storm variants go off turn 2-3 if they aren't facing interaction.
Eldrazi runs playsets of Paths, Thought-Knots and Displacers, all of whom blank this guy.
Scapeshift runs Primetime out at the same speed as this guy, but more reliably and without depending on other draws for Titan to win the game.

A deck built around Champion needs to either A) manage to be fast enough or interactive enough to grt on board against these decks, B) actually be able to stick and attack with Champion even through removal and discard, C) have a high enough density of high enough impact fatties for Champion to do something and D) actually draw/tutor and keep those fatties in hand through Thoughtseizes, Cliques and Thought-Knots long enough to actually cheat them in.

Like everyone says, fun kitchen table card. It might do something cool once in a while in a draft deck. But absolutely no place in Modern, and Standard is optimistic.

Please take it to a tournament and prove us wrong. I'll be holding my breath to see it break to 32 anywhere.

Quote from RedGauntlet »

So you can say the samething for alot of cards like: Strong removal like Lightningbolt, Mana dorks like Elvish Mystic, powerful 1 mana discard like Inquisition of Kozilek, stronger counter spell like Mana Leak, good 1 mana cantrips.


Sorry but they are trying to make an enviroment so weak for some type of cards that others like Desert that overral isn't overpowered at all, but somehow managed to become too strong in this enviroment.

Well they said that recently that they understand that they need betetr awnsers so i'll give them the benefit of doubt since Amonkhet was most likelly already made when they finally grasped the problem.

But thanks to our complains that they took the hint that standard has became a mess with way too many pwoerfull threats while making other cards suffer because is unfun or too strong.

I'll address your concerns here, going by each of your examples.

Reprinting Lightning Bolt in particular makes red very powerful, meaning that power will be transfered from other new exciting red cards to Lightning Bolt. This is in order to maintain a balanced environment. And while Lightning Bolt isn't an unexciting reprint (in fact it's a pet card of mine) WotC wants to allocate power to new cards so eternal formats can be continually expanded upon. If players get no new exciting cards for eternal, they'll get unhappy. Therefore Lightning Bolt isn't something they're very eager to reprint. That said, while Lightning Bolt is a very very good card, it's not completely off the table, as the card is (somewhat) fair. Maro, although not a power level guy, has stated this plenty of times. It's just a question about priorities, and Lightning Bolt is an incredibly powerful card that warps standard, killing everything toughness 3 and less, and allowing favorable trades - and reach - late game. For one mana. Instant speed.

The interesting thing is that in reality Elvish Mystic isn't off the table either. They just realized that starting mana dorks at cmc 2 by default severely increased the design space of cmc 3 green cards. Maro has stated here, too, that one drop mana dorks can be printed, it's just improbable with the current ebb and flow of the game. They prefer the possibility to make Standard as interesting as possible.

But in regards to reprinting really powerful utility cards, refer to the Thoughtseize reprint. They tried that as an experiment to figure out whether players like high profile reprints like that. While MonoB Devotion became an incredibly powerful deck, meaning that black didn't suffer particularly in regards to power allocation, but due to unfavorable player reactions, they found the experiment unsuccesful. (Note that they are actively listening to player response here.)

However there is another factor here. Contrary to Lightning Bolt discard spells are perceived similar to counterspells, in that players experience that they don't get to play the cards in question. They'll probably print more potent discard spells in the future, but don't expect them to print anything on the level of Thoughtseize. Amusingly, from what I gather, I believe Inquisition of Kozilek is a fine reprint for WotC as it requires some deckbuilding and play considerations (which Thoughtseize really doesn't do that much in Type 2). They considered reprinting it in BfZ but decided not to due to the fact that it wasn't colorless - meaning that it would be a flavor disconnect in Devoid Eldrazi world. It's the same reason they didn't reprint Ghostfire (as it, while basically having Devoid, wasn't flavored as an Eldrazi card in a set where colorless/devoid was the central identity of the Eldrazi).

Good 1 mana cantrips, I assume you mean quality card selection like Preordain, becaue we just got a beater Sphinx that cycles for U. The reason they don't print Preordain-like cards isn't actually Standard. It's because of concerns with eternal formats, particularly Modern. 1 mana blue cantrips are incredibly powerful there as they severely empower the tempo of blue combo decks. Of all things, don't blame Standard card design on 1 mana cantrips/card selection. This is one of the few areas they are really careful in regards to eternal.

Now, Desert. The problem with Desert is quite simple. It's a land (the card type in Standard with least playable answers), it answers creatures and allows favorable trades early game, and for a very limited tempo cost. I wouldn't ask for an answer like Desert if I were you. The card slots into every deck, meaning that it warps the format against small creatures. That's not ideal. Answers that don't require any color to play severely warps the format they're in, see Dismember. There's a question about mana effeciency compared to Dismember. (Desert basically pays 1 mana to deal 1 damage, while Dismember trades life for removal, a much better deal.) But please try to realize that the more powerful answers we need shouldn't be colorless, uncounterable and costing no mana to put on the battlefield.

Understand that they completely agree with you that they have went overboard with threat power right now. The basis of my arguments is that they want freedom to make Standard as interesting as possible, and to be blunt, Standard isn't particularly interesting right now. And it's not just uninteresting for players that like Draw-Go. WotC has made some serious mistakes in regards to threat power.

I wouldn't expect Lightning Bolt (and probably not Mana Leak either - the card has similar issues in locking down early game board development, which severely hampers the game pace) but they'll definitely power up answers because in spite of all the arguments I presented above, they have made threats too powerful compared to answers. I await Hour of Devastation eagerly. It's probably not before the fall set that we'll see a proper answer (as Hour of Devastation's vision and tempo infrastructure was already in place when they realized answers were too weak) but we might see some remedies this summer.

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Is it just me, or is Wizards trying to dumb down the game? Deck building is an attempt to be creative within the rules, doesn't mean rules should be made to usurp that creativity harder. It's not like expertise/fuse spells are dominating the league, they made this new rule to accommodate newer players, not unlike the planewalker decks (and they dumbed down the story to boot). Rather than making new rules to lessen creativity, Wizards should create new cards that could even the popularity, not killing something that's not remotely broken.

No, they're not "dumbing" the game down. The point of CMC is to give every card a singular numerical value that can be referenced by other cards. This new rules means that split cards have exactly 1 CMC in every zone. This makes the rules more logically consistent. It dumbs nothing down. Casting a spell to put a 15/15 flying anihalator 6 into play on turn 3 isn't "smart." Neat, maybe, not not "smart."

it has nothing to do with "casuals" it has to do with logical, streamlined rules. The ENTIRE point of CMC is to give every card a singular numerical value that can be referenced by other cards. The old rule gave split cards 3 unique cmc's, the new rule gives them one. This is a completely logical rule change and fits with the goal of What CMC is supposed to be.

I sympathize with those who like jamming emrakul into play on turned 3 and modern, and I'm sorry it ruins your combo. But for the love of God don't be so disingenuous to say that this change was to appease the "casuals" because they're "too dumb."

They didn't make you buy anything, and buying a set wasn't breaking your bank.

Quote from Melkor »

Quote from jturphy »

I think people need to look up the definition of Monopoly.

One vendor gets all Grand Prix for an entire year, no competition and as far as we have been told, nothing to regulate them in any way. If you want to play a Grand Prix for an entire year, you have to play by their rules. If this is not a monopoly on.Grand Prix, hoe EXACTLY do you define it?

A one year contract (if that's what it is) isn't monopoly, a lot of companies outsource work on a yearly contractual basis and they're not monopolies. People are freaking ridicules about this, talking about regulations and monopolies. Seriously? First you have to prove they are the only one permitted to hold MTG tournaments, I think TCG Player and SCG might have something to say about that. Next you'd have to prove that this supposed monopoly is artificially inflating a price of a service or product. Given that SCG charges $50 for their events but pays out less than half that of a Grand Prix, you have a hard sell on artificial inflation.

Bottom line is that CFB is only doing Grand Prix events. SCG will still be having big events.

Reason to print is that MM is not JUST about competitive modern. It has always been a haven for reprints for EDH and casual too. I mean Doubling Season is not a tourney card and it's appearance in MM 1 was well received.