I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
Sorcery speed is def relevant to removal of any kind. Sure, they can still hold priority and get the first activation, but being able to kill a walker on their turn, untap, and either develop your board or continue messing with your opponent's board is what most are people are looking for. It is meaningful interaction. Shoot, the option to kill a blocker at the end of their turn to allow your team to swing in on your turn, plus whatever else you do, is much better than having to use your removal on your turn.
You are certainly correct, but couldn't you have done the same thing with Cancel and not given them the first activation? You want to hold Mana up in case they play something you can kill at instant speed, but that's just poor play. You should develop your board or play counterspells. You should not want a card that induces you to play nothing on your turn and then answers a card after the other card got value.
Yes, this card would be much better as an instant, but thinking removal needs to be instant speed is just conditioning based on 15+ years of all removal being instant speed. The way the game has evolved makes instant speed removal less necessary because you can't waste your Mana hoping to kill something.
Edit: replying to SC1987.
It's a temporary loss if you can't use your Mana the next turn. If they spent 3 Mana and you don't 3 Mana, there is no tempo loss. It would be a tempo loss if you held up Hero's Downfall Mana and they played around it and stranded your Mana. It's all relative.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
The two flashbacks you left out, which went on to be standard and modern staples, as well as defining archetypes, Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls, beg to differ.
Point to where I said flashback cards were always better when their flashback cost was higher. I pointed out where you said the opposite which I already proved untrue.
Edit:
Which of these two cards is better? Lingering Souls or 1W: Put two 1/1 Flying Spirits into play. Flashback 2B.
Maybe the fact that the flashback was cheap on Lingering Souls isn't what made it good.
Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
This was exactly my thought. Half of this thread is "Standard is too powerful" and the other half wants Hero's Downfall with card advantage and graveyard hate tacked on for 1 extra Mana.
The above comments are why I hate modern. Just people thinking they know the format like the back of their hand and trying to shove it down people's throats.
Modern or not, this is a fun card and I'll probably try to brew up a cool RG Stompy deck with it. It's also definitely going to find a home in my Commander decks...
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But everyone who's said this is bad in Modern has also said this card is fun and has a place in Magic. Saying a card is bad in a competitive formats is not a bad thing. It's just a factual statement.
To answer an earlier post, I did not say that 4 Mana cards needed to win the game to be playable in Modern. I said they needed to win the game OR provide card advantage. Thought-Knot Seer can do both. Reality Smasher can do both. When Splinter Twin was legal, it could do both. Karn, Wurmcoil, and Ugin do both. Scapeshift wins the game. Empty wins the game. Bloodbraid provided card advantage. Wrath provides card advantage.
Those are the cards this card has to compete with, and it doesn't do so on any level. It can provide card advantage, but relies on a 2nd card to do so AND needs to survive and entire turn. Compare this to Splinter Twin. While it did rely on a 2nd creature, it won the game immediately. You didn't have to wait and hope your creature didn't get bolted when the opponent tapped out.
Good card is bad in competitive. Nothing wrong with that.
What four mana card can win the game on its own, may I ask?
I'm also curious what exactly is necessary in regards to a card "winning the game on its own". If this gets to attack in the right deck, it will win the game on its own by virtue of your mana only being needed to cast this card to win. Is it on its own if you require one of your hand cards to be an Eldrazi - this card wins if it attacks after all.
That said it's just discussing semantics and while I want this card to work the talk about Elvish Piper has convinced me it's probably not going to do it. That said. The problem with Piper was that it was useless on its own. This isn't. A Hill Giant isn't a good card, but it's no Fugitive Wizard. I'm not sure why people think Piper is superior. This caRD is more resilient, requires one less mana, and can therefore be activated one turn earlier with haste.
Probably not going to break any format and isn't strictly better due to the definition of the phrase. But I could see this being tested with say Lightning Greaves. I'd do that if I had the software.
Thrun and Olivia are both examples that have seen at least fringe Modern play. Those are great cards that can win the game on their own, and even they see at best fringe play.
This card on it's own is worthless in the context of competitive Magic, and it requires you to build a deck around it. Not good.
Why don't more people try to figure out how a card can work instead of seeing only the ways in which it cannot?
The hype is for Limited/Sealed and Standard, formats where this card can--and will--start winning some games on turn 4.
Because why waste looking for a reason to make a bad card work? The card is fun and will be fun in casual formats. But spending time trying make a bad card work competitively is just a waste of time. 4 Mana cards that do not create instant card advantage or can win the game on their own are not good competitively.
You realize Elvish Piper is available in Modern already right? This is a worse version because you can't drop the fatty at instant speed at end of opponent's turn.
Unlike Elvish Piper, this card is good without its ability. There's a big difference between a 3/3 body and a 1/1.
How? We're talking about Modern playability here. What cards that are commonly played kill a 1/1 that do not kill a 3/3?
Edit: And this card is a Hill Giant without it's ability. What Modern tournaments are you going to that a Hill Giant is good?
How many cards are we playing in this hypothetical deck for the sole purpose of saving our 4 drop from getting killed by 1 Mana removal spells? How are you saving it from Fatal Push and Path?
This card is very bad in competitive play. It does nothing the turn it enters play, and must survive a full turn opening it up to sorcery speed removal and sweepers. Even if it lives, it requires another card for it to even be good. And what happens if your hand is 3 lands, Emrakul, Proggy, Mana Dork, and a Mutagenic Growth? You can't build a deck that will actually be able to make him work in Modern.
You realize Elvish Piper is available in Modern already right? This is a worse version because you can't drop the fatty at instant speed at end of opponent's turn.
Unlike Elvish Piper, this card is good without its ability. There's a big difference between a 3/3 body and a 1/1.
How? We're talking about Modern playability here. What cards that are commonly played kill a 1/1 that do not kill a 3/3?
Edit: And this card is a Hill Giant without it's ability. What Modern tournaments are you going to that a Hill Giant is good?
You realize Elvish Piper is available in Modern already right? This is a worse version because you can't drop the fatty at instant speed at end of opponent's turn.
This is stupid strong. Will see play easily. "Dies to removal" argument isn't applied because whatever.
But it does die to removal and provides no value until the following turn. It also requires you to have large creature to cheat in otherwise it's a bad manadork. So now we are running a giant creature we probably will never be able to cast that relies on a 4 mana creature living to our next turn. Put this in the context of 4 color saheeli where not only does it win faster, but the combo pieces still provide value even if they die and you realize you have a steaming pile of *****. It's a cool card to play around with, but the dies to removal argument absolutely applies.
This rule change is intuitive, but pretty sad for a lot of decks. Breaking // Entering and Beck // Call decks were lighting up Modern and those decks are now 100% dead. Meanwhile it's been a long time since Fire // Ice on a Stick was a major force in any format but it was a fun casual deck that no longer works at all.
Good stuff in Standard though - Maybe if Red's "Aftermath" card is good we could see some sort of hyper-aggressive red deck with Sin Prodder and Nahiri's Wrath dishing out massive chunks of damage off of a playable card? Add more discard and milk that new Flameblade Adept for all he's worth alongside cards with low cycling costs and high CMCs.
Define "lighting up Modern." Was there a single deck playing these cards at the top of GP this weekend?
You are certainly correct, but couldn't you have done the same thing with Cancel and not given them the first activation? You want to hold Mana up in case they play something you can kill at instant speed, but that's just poor play. You should develop your board or play counterspells. You should not want a card that induces you to play nothing on your turn and then answers a card after the other card got value.
Yes, this card would be much better as an instant, but thinking removal needs to be instant speed is just conditioning based on 15+ years of all removal being instant speed. The way the game has evolved makes instant speed removal less necessary because you can't waste your Mana hoping to kill something.
Edit: replying to SC1987.
It's a temporary loss if you can't use your Mana the next turn. If they spent 3 Mana and you don't 3 Mana, there is no tempo loss. It would be a tempo loss if you held up Hero's Downfall Mana and they played around it and stranded your Mana. It's all relative.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
Point to where I said flashback cards were always better when their flashback cost was higher. I pointed out where you said the opposite which I already proved untrue.
Edit:
Which of these two cards is better? Lingering Souls or 1W: Put two 1/1 Flying Spirits into play. Flashback 2B.
Maybe the fact that the flashback was cheap on Lingering Souls isn't what made it good.
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
But everyone who's said this is bad in Modern has also said this card is fun and has a place in Magic. Saying a card is bad in a competitive formats is not a bad thing. It's just a factual statement.
To answer an earlier post, I did not say that 4 Mana cards needed to win the game to be playable in Modern. I said they needed to win the game OR provide card advantage. Thought-Knot Seer can do both. Reality Smasher can do both. When Splinter Twin was legal, it could do both. Karn, Wurmcoil, and Ugin do both. Scapeshift wins the game. Empty wins the game. Bloodbraid provided card advantage. Wrath provides card advantage.
Those are the cards this card has to compete with, and it doesn't do so on any level. It can provide card advantage, but relies on a 2nd card to do so AND needs to survive and entire turn. Compare this to Splinter Twin. While it did rely on a 2nd creature, it won the game immediately. You didn't have to wait and hope your creature didn't get bolted when the opponent tapped out.
Good card is bad in competitive. Nothing wrong with that.
Thrun and Olivia are both examples that have seen at least fringe Modern play. Those are great cards that can win the game on their own, and even they see at best fringe play.
This card on it's own is worthless in the context of competitive Magic, and it requires you to build a deck around it. Not good.
Because why waste looking for a reason to make a bad card work? The card is fun and will be fun in casual formats. But spending time trying make a bad card work competitively is just a waste of time. 4 Mana cards that do not create instant card advantage or can win the game on their own are not good competitively.
[/quote]
Just trying give people a PSA. Don't waste time with bad cards in competitive formats.
How many cards are we playing in this hypothetical deck for the sole purpose of saving our 4 drop from getting killed by 1 Mana removal spells? How are you saving it from Fatal Push and Path?
This card is very bad in competitive play. It does nothing the turn it enters play, and must survive a full turn opening it up to sorcery speed removal and sweepers. Even if it lives, it requires another card for it to even be good. And what happens if your hand is 3 lands, Emrakul, Proggy, Mana Dork, and a Mutagenic Growth? You can't build a deck that will actually be able to make him work in Modern.
How? We're talking about Modern playability here. What cards that are commonly played kill a 1/1 that do not kill a 3/3?
Edit: And this card is a Hill Giant without it's ability. What Modern tournaments are you going to that a Hill Giant is good?
You realize Elvish Piper is available in Modern already right? This is a worse version because you can't drop the fatty at instant speed at end of opponent's turn.
Thank you logic. This card is fun. It is not good in competitive formats.
Define "lighting up Modern." Was there a single deck playing these cards at the top of GP this weekend?
This was "confirmed" on Matt Tabak's Twitter last night. They will be legal.