So not to revive a dead horse or anything but I stumbled upon this thread recently and was wondering if anyone was still playing anything like this.
If anyone is I've got a couple questions/food for thought:
Has anyone thought about testing out crop rotation? Might be good with a utility land package here
I wonder if the zendikon enchantments from zendikar are worth testing out. Gives a way to finally close out the game and give board presence without increasing your creature count for fengraff, commune with the gods can fetch them, and slapping one on a darksteel citadel sounds pretty sweet to me.
How in the world does this deck deal with a resolved angler? At least in G/B colors. I'd love to play this deck and maybe I'm just missing the obvious but idk if it's worth it if it can't deal with one of the most popular current decks right now
Going off the last question, I really wanna go into different colors like G/U or G/W because of the problem of angler, white has plenty of decent removal and cenn's enlistment seems like a pretty good finisher, but then you lose out on raven's crime, Idk.
I'm interested in if you had any good results up until now with the current build of the deck?
Surprisingly well really, the addition of nissa has gone a long way in upping the threat density, since a problem with earlier builds was like getting wrath'd and just never drawing a way to close the game.
Not that this is a "new" idea or anything but it's kind of funny having blue mana sources in g1 even though for all intents and purposes they're useless. Like, just searching out an island with Pilgrim's eye and bluffing dispel puts more pressure on the opponent.
Veteran warleader has been pretty great so far especially when you have kor tokens out so you can grant trample to him. I think the fact that both him and managorger hydra can be tramplers make them both better choices compared to undergrowth champion. The champ is great and everything but the fact he doesn't have trample really makes him kinda lackluster here. The only problem I've ran into with the warleader is the fact that he often times turns on crackling doom when it usually is kind of a semi-dead card against us. Considering putting a couple elvish visionary's in the side to replace warleader with in that matchup, but even in that matchup he has the potetial to be so clutch. I guess that's what the dispel's for.
A weird idea I had earlier was to put in a from beyond / oblivion sower package in the sideboard to side into heavy control matchups. The fact that you can recur a from beyond with emeria shepherd after you used it to search the sower with seems just janky enough to try out.
I've got a special place in my heart for janky equipment but slab hammer might be getting cut here really soon to be replaced with another creature or maybe a valorous stance or something. Sometimes it just wins the game equipped to a pilgrim's eye flying over a stalled board but games like that are few and far between enough to where that spot would probably be better served with more redundancy.
Posting again in this thread because the addition of nissa, vastwood seer has ramped up the power level of this deck a lot. Truthfully I don't know why I didn't throw in some copies of her sooner, she works perfectly with this deck's gameplan. Able to be hit off coco, fetches a land for landfall/ramp, a draw engine and landfall enabler herself all in one.
(The blue is for counterspells in the sideboard. The mana is basically perfect considering not only do I have fetches, but I have 8 creatures, pilgrim and knight, that can fetch me blue. Don't wanna go any lower than what i have now on basic lands due to the nature of the deck.)
Honestly, I know I probably don't have enough creatures in for collected company, I know I whiff often enough that I know it's a problem. Maybe coco should be gideon, ally of zendikar instead. It really comes down to the fact that I have a playset of coco and have no copies of gideon irl lol. That and whenever I hit a pilgrim's eye + anafenza off of coco it really does feel good.
After some recent testing with this list, I just wanted to say, landing more than 1 retreat to emeria on the field can be pretty busted. You can easily pump up your full board +6/+6 or more depending on your hand. Gonna be really sad when fetches rotate out and I gotta rely on evolving wilds with this deck lol
Gideon is a must in this build. I would even say as a 4 of. The beauty of this build is that it has tempo ability. There's a version someone dropped in mono white Eldrazi thread that you should consider. It takes advantage of silkwrap, stasis snare and quarantine field mixed with Helm of the gods on relic seeker's part to open up for some early game pressure. I don't think you would more than one sword main there's little artifact removal today. Turn two Hangarback walker turn three knight of the white orchid is a really solid play. Finally mastery unseen if quite interesting here because it can provide life gain and the advantage we lack as well as helping us kamakazee our removal into the yard for later shepherd plays. I will say that if done right you may cause your opponent to lose steam by the team shepherd hits to give us back the momentum.
Ya know I hadn't seen that white eldrazi thread till now but I thought it was kinda funny cuz a couple of those builds on there looked very similar to early versions of this deck lol. That said I like the direction some of them are going with it, for one thing I think some oblivion sowers could really help out a lot.
The problem with cards like hangarback is I built this deck specifically with collected company in mind, which hangarback obviously has a bit of a nonbo with.
Also I agree gideon would probably be really good here but alas he's a tad too rich for my blood lol, though I'm aware this isn't a budget forum. He works great with emeria shepherd of course, but he's not needed for the deck to function I don't think. Retreat to Emeria works similar to what gideon would be doing in this deck and is in certain situations just better at pumping up the team than he is.
Figured redundancy is always a good thing especially with enchantments that make tokens so I added 2 retreat to emerias to supplement the roil. The pump ability on retreat is HIGHLY relevant when you're sitting on an army of tokens. Kind of want at least one more retreat but not sure yet what to cut. Maybe the ratio of roils to retreats should be reversed?
Undergrowth champion is a good card but I wanted to try out veteran warleader as a surprise game ending threat whenever tokens just can't get ya there, figured champion was the most comparable so I'd try it out in it's spot. I've only tested this version of the deck with the veteran a couple of times, but so far it hasn't been hard getting him to the point where he could trade favorably with Ulamog. His other ally-centric ability is only relevant in the deck when you also have retreat to emeria on field so it hasn't come up often.
Overall I'm starting to become happy with the direction the deck is going, but still could use some advice.
Maybeboard:
Flip Nissa? oblivion sower over the shepherd?
So this deck kinda sorta sprang into being from my brewing sessions after watching some footage on youtube of the modern W/U Sun titan control deck and thinking that looks like a fun deck to play, and me wanting to play with certain cards that I like but might not usually see a lot of competitive play for one reason or another. Just started off as a for fun brew but I've found it's actually beaten a wide range of casual-competitive decks, so I figured with some tweaking, something could possibly come of this?
So that's the deck. It seems kinda motley at first glance but there's some synergy here that can't be overlooked. I'm not married to some of these card ratios at all but I think a lot of the card choices are sound. I'll talk about a couple choices:
Pilgrim's Eye: would you believe me if I told you this little guy is one of the centerpieces of the deck? Between pilgrim, knight, and sword of the animist I'm all but guaranteed to always have a steady stream of lands to ramp and trigger landfall with. Plus, and this is almost as important, it's a flyer. This deck can fold pretty quickly to clogged skies I've found out so the fact that I have a blocker up there has been lifesaving. Mantis Rider is a hell of a card. The good news is, in this deck, very often pilgrim is gonna be bigger than a 1/1. Between Anafenza, the equipments, and dromoka's command the pilgrim can pretty often trade or even go above the rider.
Jeskai Barricade: Probably the weirdest choice out of all of them and rightly so. It's draft chaff from 3 sets ago that to my knowledge really never saw play, although after testing it out I'm starting to wonder why that is. It's a deceptively good card. In the hand it fizzles your opponent's removal spell at no loss of card advantage to you. In the deck, it synergizes hilariously well with collected company. Crack coco in response to a removal spell or after you've declared blockers with something you'd really rather keep, and if you hit the barricade, congratulations, you're now way ahead in card advantage. Hitting a barricade and an anafenza with coco is a lot funnier than I thought it'd be. 4 copies main deck is probably (almost definitely) the wrong number, but i really do encourage people to try the card out before judging it. At least in this deck. Hell, there's been plenty of times where I've end-of-turn bounced pilgrim with barricade just so I could grab some more lands. Just a funny little card
Undergrowth Champion: I mention this because I originally had managorger hydra in this slot, but I think the champ is the right choice over hydra for this deck. Hydra was a freaking lightning rod for removal anyways, got really annoying. I only have 2 mainly cuz of the double G in it's casting cost but I wonder if I could get away with more...
Relic seeker/sword of the animist/slab hammer: seeker should be obvious, pumps itself, searches out our equipments, overall a decent card depending on what kind of equipment we have in standard. Sword is amazing and pretty vital to the deck I've found. The singleton slab hammer is really just in there as a test to see if I like it or not. It can sometimes be nice when we start to get low on lands to just bounce a land to hand for more landfall triggers. It's been good half the time and irrelevant the other half, so idk.
Emeria shepherd: Honestly this card probably shouldn't be at 3 copies maindeck, 1-2 is probably the correct ratio. Either way though, it's an interesting card and one of the main reasons I wanted to try this deck. Good late game bomb (or mid-game with the amount of ramp that we do) that has obviously a ridiculous amount of value tacked onto it. Cracking a fetchland the turn this comes down (pretty easy to do) is value city baby. That being said, I win often enough without even needing to ever cast her that I'm contemplating whether it's even worth having.
Zendikar's Roil: If this deck needed a win condition, this would be it. This card is the nuts. Turning all of our land drops (we make a lot of those) into bears clogs up the board surprisingly quick. Land 2 of these down and your opponent probably won't ever recover. (Side note: I think it's kinda funny this card doesn't actually have the landfall keyword even though it functions exactly like it does.)
That said, even with how good this card is, I'm conflicted. Should I even be playing this card or should I just go with retreat to emeria instead? The pump ability retreat has can be pretty amazing, but an army of bears shouldn't be underestimated. Maybe I should be playing both? 4 roils and 2-3 Retreats? Idk, help me out guys!
So yeah that's the deck at the moment, lemme know what you guys think, try it out if you want, if anyone ever decides to sleeve it up and take it to fnm let me know the details, lemme know any changes you would make and any glaring issues that I've overlooked. The tier 1 matchups are semi-good from what I've seen, control is winnable game 1 but becomes a lot more interesting games 2 and 3 after the sweepers come in. Dark jeskai sucks, but mostly only because of mantis rider ruining your day. But I guess that's what sideboard plummets are for eh?
The option to go bant for counterspells is definitely there. Going abzan or naya is also an option if access to more removal is needed, but let's be honest here, we already got the best removal spell in standard in dromoka's command amiright fellas?
The main problem really in going 3 colors is, due to the nature of the deck, a certain number of basic lands are needed, probably a lot more than most 3 color decks would want to play. To be honest I'm considering going down on the flooded strands, they're in there for more landfall triggers obviously but there's been plenty of times where the game went long and I got dangerously close to or just outright ran out of basics to grab. Yes, that has actually happened with this deck a non-zero amount of times.
Just a homebrew I've been working on that is pretty funny when it goes off, no idea if others have tried this idea or not but help me out! Decklist before explanations:
Probably gonna replace the thornwood falls with just some evolving wilds tbh, fulfills the same purpose plus fuels cruise. Then again if anyone has better ideas on improving the manabase I'm all ears. Considering going sultai for kin-tree invocation and some black draw spells but not sure if it's necessary yet.
So yeah anyways the deck at first glance seems weird I'm sure, it seems to be wanting to accomplish 2 different gameplans but I've found out surprisingly that these 2 plans compliment each other pretty well. The main card that ties them both together is fruit of the first tree. Basically, it's an "oops I win spell" with tutelage and a sac outlet on field. Gain 6 life and 6 tutelage activations? Yes please. Plus even if you don't have tutelage on the field, I've found it might as well give your wall hexproof cuz nobody wants to use a kill spell on it then, even if it's swinging in big with ass formation.
This is where evolutionary leap comes in. The card is obviously great at blanking removal and making sure I always have some sort of threat present/triggering fruit, but also kinda sorta helps stack my deck and helps draws out a tad. All around good card, and always love seeing a string of lands put down to the bottom of the deck after grabbing a wall.
spidersilk net is just an idea I'm trying out as it's an easy pump spell that sticks around plus gives reach, since flyers can be somewhat of a problem for this deck. Honestly it might just be better in the sideboard though.
taigam's scheming is a necessary evil because commune with the gods is no longer in standard and I'm still pissed we don't have some sort of equivalent.
hangarback walker is in mainly cuz it's a good card but also has some random synergies in the deck. tide drifter becomes a lord for the walker and it's tokens when formation is on the field, plus the usual sac synergies with faithful and leap.
So that's the deck! Lemme know what you think and help me out with ratios! I know it needs it.
So after getting blown out by utter ends and abzan charms constantly these last couple weeks with a primarily starfield-centric deck I've been thinking about changing it up my game plan a bit with this deck.
Been testing this spicy brew online this last week and I'm considering sleeving it up and trying it out this FNM. Let me know what you guys think.
(Can be either windswept heath or flooded strand, doesn't matter, just there for the landfall. Maybe I should have a playset of both, idk)
Now, this deck MIGHT be trying to do too much, but I can't deny the synergies present here between the different strategies
Some notes:
-This deck has a much higher threat density than the earlier "pure" enchantment version I was playing before, and I like that. Now instead of starfield and sigil being the only game enders in the deck, I can also win by any other number of ways, like beating down with a helm-equipped knight/seeker/token, swarming and pumping with retreat triggers, etc.
-Bumped Starfield down to 2 in this deck, while it's a very potent card I'm tired of it being the sole reason why I lose games. Now at 2 it becomes purely a lategame threat I can drop and then swing in for a whole bunch of surprise damage after they've dealt with all of my guys.
-Archangel of tithes is just a good card by itself of course, even if it's a lightning rod for removal. It can stall pretty well till I can start dropping threats, and if it does get removed It's a prime reanimation target with the shepherd. Not sure if 3 copies is correct though, only problem.
-Speaking of the shepherd, the card is a lot better than I thought it'd be. Idk if I've actually finally found a home in standard for the card yet, but it does work here. With the surprising amount of ramp we got here (mono white probably shouldn't have access to this kind of ramp) from things like knight and sword, getting up to 8+ mana is EASY. Very often I'll hold up playing a fetchland till after I throw down the shepherd (or retreat, but I'll get to that) and just cascade advantage from there. Doesn't even matter if shepherd dies next turn, I'm already up in card advantage.
-retreat to emeria is an amazing card. The fact that it turns all of your lands into 1/1s is potent in it of itself, but very often I'm able to get triggers off of it 2-3 or even 4 times in 1 turn. Pumping your entire board +3/+3 can win games by itself. I think I want more than just 2 copies in this deck, but not sure yet how I want to rearrange ratios yet.
-I'm really not sure if mastery of the unseen should be mainboarded here or not tbh. The reason it's there of course is to make more dudes to attach helms and swords too, but I'm probably already covered in that department. The fact that it also puts cards in the yard for the shepherd to reanimate is a bonus too, but idk. Maybe better as a sideboard card, but I guess that's why I'm posting this in the first place lol, to get your opinions.
So that's the deck, any and all critiques are of course appreciated. No side yet, that will come soon. I'm not married to the idea of keeping it mono colored of course, that's not a requirement here, and I'll probably end up at least splashing a little bit, either for blue or green or maybe both, depending on what I want my sideboard to look like.
No monastery mentor? I feel like if there's any kind of home for him in standard, something like this would be it.
ojutai's exemplars might be worth a look as well, prowess, hard to kill, might be worth it as a midgame threat that can also finish the game if it stays on long enough.
You might as well turn this into a token build tbh, you're already halfway there, might as well go all out lol. retreat to emeria might just seem like a weaker gideon, but if you build your deck with it in mind it's surprisingly powerful. With fetchlands it becomes terrifying. Pumping up a field of tokens from secure the wastes last turn a couple of times puts out a crapton of damage out of nowhere. knight of the white orchid and to a lesser extent sword od the animist are retreat's best friends. Also, the fact that it turns all of your lands into chumps is not something to scoff at either.
I'll say what I said on that other thread and thats to bring in whirler rogue to the mainboard, the card by itself is great and is another valid target for mirror mockery, plus it makes your living lore unblockable. I'd say it's pretty much an essential combo piece tbh
Yeahhhh to all who reminded me about that kiora/frostwalker nonbo, I realized it like right after I posted that, sorry guys, lol. Thankfully I haven't actually done that in a test game before since rattleclaw is obviously the superior choice to untap, but I digress.
I'm liking you guys' decklists a lot, definitely giving me ideas. Especially using Collected Company! Totally forgot about that card while brewing up the deck, I can see it be amazing with the krasis and harbinger of the tides and even with silumgar sorcerer. Will have to test it out for myself
Ehhh Ojutai is a good card obviously and I used him in early versions but I always kinda felt that, not only did it make the 5 drop spot even more cluttered, it was also a lightning rod for countering and removal that was mostly turned off beforehand by the deck not really using much creatures. So it never really worked out for me lol. It could be different for you though, have you tried testing with ojutai?
So I went to FNM last week and was gonna post a report about it, but I've been swamped with work lately so just didn't really have the time for it, plus with everything going on I kinda forgot the matchups I had, I remember going 3-2 with 1 bye and 1 missed round due to getting there late (work again) but also remember being somewhat disappointed with the games I did play, but I guess you can't win them all. Not giving up on this bad boy by a long shot but I think we're gonna have to do some serious metagaming going forward as the format becomes more and more defined.
I'll (probably) be going to this week's WNM so I'll be sure to put a report in then.
I was doing a little online testing last night of a W/B version using wasteland stranglers and relic seekers/helm of the gods when I realized I really wish there were more pillow fort type effects in standard. Citadel siege helps a lot but wish there was more. We have PLENTY of removal enchantments but only relying on removal just isn't enough sometimes, if we had pillow fort enchantments I think it would really take this deck over the top. Maybe try going all in on the Citadel sieges and dampening pulses? Dunno, I might test something like that.
By the way, going on what I said earlier, helm of the gods is actually really freaking sweet. Maybe everyone except me already knew this but after finally testing with it I can see the appeal. It's often times as ridiculous as a cranial plating, and if you get multiple on the field it can be hard for your opponent to deal with. What's more is I really like the extra threat density that helm brings, it was kinda nice not JUST having to rely on sigil or the super risky starfield as a finisher to close out the game.
Yeah I've seen that thread and like it a lot! Been wanting to mess around with a temur deck, but I just felt like the mid-late game plus the underlying themes and mechanics used here were different enough that it warranted its own thread. Although, I may end up taking this into temur colors anyways if I find that being low in main deck removal besides bounce and tap effects hurts more than it helps lol.
Ok so this is a deck I made recently kinda for gigs and shiggles cuz I like simic colors and wanted just a fun janky deck to play around with when I'm not playing with my enchantment deck, nothin too serious.....till I actually started testing it, and it performed.....kinda well?
So yeah the basic idea is to just tempo the ever living crap out of the opponent while transitioning to the long game with big threats like whisperwood and hooded hydra if need be.
-Surrak and bounding krasis go together like 2 peas in a pod. Flashing in the krasis at the end of their turn and tapping down a jace or mantis rider or something then playing surrak and swinging in for 8 feels sooooooo good.
-frost walker is a surprising early game mvp, especially against controll-y decks. Comes down too early for counterspells and easily swings in multiple times before being dealt with cuz honestly who wants to use a kill spell on frost walker?? Also a good early blocker against aggro and of course turns on stubborn denial super early which is always great. You usually don't even care when he finally dies either, as he just becomes more food for the delve.
-Went with treasure cruise over dig through time since cruise is less blue intensive and honestly draw 3 is usually gonna be enough for this deck most of the time. Could be persuaded to change this though, the fact that cruise is a sorcery kinda bums me out
-Kiora is working out pretty sweet not gonna lie. I often times use her +1 over her -2 to keep mana up for my flashy dudes or for stubborn denial. Her -2 also does a great job at fueling delve. Haven't gotten her to ultimate yet unfortunately but hey a guy can dream.
-The morph sub-theme works pretty great I've found, not just with whisperwood but with playing mind games in general. "Is that a rattleclaw or a sagu mauler? Should I counter/kill it or let it go through?"
-Speaking of morph, hooded hydra is surprisingly awesome. It's being touted as the "budget replacement to hangarback" I've noticed around here but in this deck it actually does some work. Hitting hydra off of a whisperwood manifest is freaking awesome of course but he's also not bad at all to just cast for 3 then flip for 5 next turn. Ties into the whole mindgames thing. Also works as a ridiculously scary late game mana sink. Hardcasting him for 8+ mana while you have a surrak on field is probably GG. It's flexible in the sense that it's good at basically all times in the game sans the super early game.
The ideal christmasland early curve scenario here is as follows:
T1 forest or island
T2 land play frostwalker
T3 land swing with walker and play a facedown rattleclaw mystic
T4 land swing with walker (if still alive) unmorph the mystic using 2 mana to gain 3 floating mana. Tap the mystic for a 4th floating mana and play Kiora off the floating mana. +1 kiora to untap a land and the mystic or the frostwalker. You now have 3-4 open mana to flash in a bounding krasis or harbinger of the tides on their turn if need be.
Proceed to run away with the game from there.
So yeah that's the deck, it's been a surprising amount of fun from the testing I've done with it so far. The main thing I need help with I think is some sort of removal. Maybe some Fight effects in green? Also the ratios could probably (definitely) be tweaked. I'm not above splashing a 3rd color but I'm curious to see if this can be at the very least semi-viable in just G/U colors. Thanks for any feedback!
If anyone is I've got a couple questions/food for thought:
Has anyone thought about testing out crop rotation? Might be good with a utility land package here
I wonder if the zendikon enchantments from zendikar are worth testing out. Gives a way to finally close out the game and give board presence without increasing your creature count for fengraff, commune with the gods can fetch them, and slapping one on a darksteel citadel sounds pretty sweet to me.
How in the world does this deck deal with a resolved angler? At least in G/B colors. I'd love to play this deck and maybe I'm just missing the obvious but idk if it's worth it if it can't deal with one of the most popular current decks right now
Going off the last question, I really wanna go into different colors like G/U or G/W because of the problem of angler, white has plenty of decent removal and cenn's enlistment seems like a pretty good finisher, but then you lose out on raven's crime, Idk.
Surprisingly well really, the addition of nissa has gone a long way in upping the threat density, since a problem with earlier builds was like getting wrath'd and just never drawing a way to close the game.
Not that this is a "new" idea or anything but it's kind of funny having blue mana sources in g1 even though for all intents and purposes they're useless. Like, just searching out an island with Pilgrim's eye and bluffing dispel puts more pressure on the opponent.
Veteran warleader has been pretty great so far especially when you have kor tokens out so you can grant trample to him. I think the fact that both him and managorger hydra can be tramplers make them both better choices compared to undergrowth champion. The champ is great and everything but the fact he doesn't have trample really makes him kinda lackluster here. The only problem I've ran into with the warleader is the fact that he often times turns on crackling doom when it usually is kind of a semi-dead card against us. Considering putting a couple elvish visionary's in the side to replace warleader with in that matchup, but even in that matchup he has the potetial to be so clutch. I guess that's what the dispel's for.
A weird idea I had earlier was to put in a from beyond / oblivion sower package in the sideboard to side into heavy control matchups. The fact that you can recur a from beyond with emeria shepherd after you used it to search the sower with seems just janky enough to try out.
I've got a special place in my heart for janky equipment but slab hammer might be getting cut here really soon to be replaced with another creature or maybe a valorous stance or something. Sometimes it just wins the game equipped to a pilgrim's eye flying over a stalled board but games like that are few and far between enough to where that spot would probably be better served with more redundancy.
Current deck:
3x Anafenza, kin-tree spirit
4x knight of the white orchid
3x relic seeker
4x pilgrim's eye
2x veteran warleader
2x managorger hydra
3x nissa, vastwood seer
2x emeria shepherd
4x collected company
1x valorous stance
1x secure the wastes
Enchantments
4x Retreat to Emeria
Artifacts
2x sword of the animist
1x slab hammer
Lands
4x winswept heath
2x flooded strand
3x canopy vista
1x prairie stream
1x blighted steppe
1x island
2x forest
10x plains
(The blue is for counterspells in the sideboard. The mana is basically perfect considering not only do I have fetches, but I have 8 creatures, pilgrim and knight, that can fetch me blue. Don't wanna go any lower than what i have now on basic lands due to the nature of the deck.)
Honestly, I know I probably don't have enough creatures in for collected company, I know I whiff often enough that I know it's a problem. Maybe coco should be gideon, ally of zendikar instead. It really comes down to the fact that I have a playset of coco and have no copies of gideon irl lol. That and whenever I hit a pilgrim's eye + anafenza off of coco it really does feel good.
After some recent testing with this list, I just wanted to say, landing more than 1 retreat to emeria on the field can be pretty busted. You can easily pump up your full board +6/+6 or more depending on your hand. Gonna be really sad when fetches rotate out and I gotta rely on evolving wilds with this deck lol
Ya know I hadn't seen that white eldrazi thread till now but I thought it was kinda funny cuz a couple of those builds on there looked very similar to early versions of this deck lol. That said I like the direction some of them are going with it, for one thing I think some oblivion sowers could really help out a lot.
The problem with cards like hangarback is I built this deck specifically with collected company in mind, which hangarback obviously has a bit of a nonbo with.
Also I agree gideon would probably be really good here but alas he's a tad too rich for my blood lol, though I'm aware this isn't a budget forum. He works great with emeria shepherd of course, but he's not needed for the deck to function I don't think. Retreat to Emeria works similar to what gideon would be doing in this deck and is in certain situations just better at pumping up the team than he is.
-1 jeskai barricade
-1 Emeria shepherd
-2 undergrowth champion
+2 veteran warleader
+2 retreat to emeria
Figured redundancy is always a good thing especially with enchantments that make tokens so I added 2 retreat to emerias to supplement the roil. The pump ability on retreat is HIGHLY relevant when you're sitting on an army of tokens. Kind of want at least one more retreat but not sure yet what to cut. Maybe the ratio of roils to retreats should be reversed?
Undergrowth champion is a good card but I wanted to try out veteran warleader as a surprise game ending threat whenever tokens just can't get ya there, figured champion was the most comparable so I'd try it out in it's spot. I've only tested this version of the deck with the veteran a couple of times, but so far it hasn't been hard getting him to the point where he could trade favorably with Ulamog. His other ally-centric ability is only relevant in the deck when you also have retreat to emeria on field so it hasn't come up often.
Overall I'm starting to become happy with the direction the deck is going, but still could use some advice.
Maybeboard:
Flip Nissa?
oblivion sower over the shepherd?
4x knight of the white orchid
3x anafenza, kin-tree spirit
3x relic seeker
4x jeskai barricade
4x pilgrim's eye
2x undergrowth champion
3x Emeria shepherd
2x sword of the animist
1x slab hammer
instants
4x collected company
2x dromoka's command
enchamtments
4x Zendikar's roil
Lands
4x windswept heath
4x flooded strand
1x blighted steppe
1x blighted woodland
4x canopy vista
9x plains
1x forest
So that's the deck. It seems kinda motley at first glance but there's some synergy here that can't be overlooked. I'm not married to some of these card ratios at all but I think a lot of the card choices are sound. I'll talk about a couple choices:
Pilgrim's Eye: would you believe me if I told you this little guy is one of the centerpieces of the deck? Between pilgrim, knight, and sword of the animist I'm all but guaranteed to always have a steady stream of lands to ramp and trigger landfall with. Plus, and this is almost as important, it's a flyer. This deck can fold pretty quickly to clogged skies I've found out so the fact that I have a blocker up there has been lifesaving. Mantis Rider is a hell of a card. The good news is, in this deck, very often pilgrim is gonna be bigger than a 1/1. Between Anafenza, the equipments, and dromoka's command the pilgrim can pretty often trade or even go above the rider.
Jeskai Barricade: Probably the weirdest choice out of all of them and rightly so. It's draft chaff from 3 sets ago that to my knowledge really never saw play, although after testing it out I'm starting to wonder why that is. It's a deceptively good card. In the hand it fizzles your opponent's removal spell at no loss of card advantage to you. In the deck, it synergizes hilariously well with collected company. Crack coco in response to a removal spell or after you've declared blockers with something you'd really rather keep, and if you hit the barricade, congratulations, you're now way ahead in card advantage. Hitting a barricade and an anafenza with coco is a lot funnier than I thought it'd be. 4 copies main deck is probably (almost definitely) the wrong number, but i really do encourage people to try the card out before judging it. At least in this deck. Hell, there's been plenty of times where I've end-of-turn bounced pilgrim with barricade just so I could grab some more lands. Just a funny little card
Undergrowth Champion: I mention this because I originally had managorger hydra in this slot, but I think the champ is the right choice over hydra for this deck. Hydra was a freaking lightning rod for removal anyways, got really annoying. I only have 2 mainly cuz of the double G in it's casting cost but I wonder if I could get away with more...
Relic seeker/sword of the animist/slab hammer: seeker should be obvious, pumps itself, searches out our equipments, overall a decent card depending on what kind of equipment we have in standard. Sword is amazing and pretty vital to the deck I've found. The singleton slab hammer is really just in there as a test to see if I like it or not. It can sometimes be nice when we start to get low on lands to just bounce a land to hand for more landfall triggers. It's been good half the time and irrelevant the other half, so idk.
Emeria shepherd: Honestly this card probably shouldn't be at 3 copies maindeck, 1-2 is probably the correct ratio. Either way though, it's an interesting card and one of the main reasons I wanted to try this deck. Good late game bomb (or mid-game with the amount of ramp that we do) that has obviously a ridiculous amount of value tacked onto it. Cracking a fetchland the turn this comes down (pretty easy to do) is value city baby. That being said, I win often enough without even needing to ever cast her that I'm contemplating whether it's even worth having.
Zendikar's Roil: If this deck needed a win condition, this would be it. This card is the nuts. Turning all of our land drops (we make a lot of those) into bears clogs up the board surprisingly quick. Land 2 of these down and your opponent probably won't ever recover. (Side note: I think it's kinda funny this card doesn't actually have the landfall keyword even though it functions exactly like it does.)
That said, even with how good this card is, I'm conflicted. Should I even be playing this card or should I just go with retreat to emeria instead? The pump ability retreat has can be pretty amazing, but an army of bears shouldn't be underestimated. Maybe I should be playing both? 4 roils and 2-3 Retreats? Idk, help me out guys!
So yeah that's the deck at the moment, lemme know what you guys think, try it out if you want, if anyone ever decides to sleeve it up and take it to fnm let me know the details, lemme know any changes you would make and any glaring issues that I've overlooked. The tier 1 matchups are semi-good from what I've seen, control is winnable game 1 but becomes a lot more interesting games 2 and 3 after the sweepers come in. Dark jeskai sucks, but mostly only because of mantis rider ruining your day. But I guess that's what sideboard plummets are for eh?
The option to go bant for counterspells is definitely there. Going abzan or naya is also an option if access to more removal is needed, but let's be honest here, we already got the best removal spell in standard in dromoka's command amiright fellas?
The main problem really in going 3 colors is, due to the nature of the deck, a certain number of basic lands are needed, probably a lot more than most 3 color decks would want to play. To be honest I'm considering going down on the flooded strands, they're in there for more landfall triggers obviously but there's been plenty of times where the game went long and I got dangerously close to or just outright ran out of basics to grab. Yes, that has actually happened with this deck a non-zero amount of times.
Thanks again for feedback!
2x sidisi's faithful
4x hangarback walker
4x dragon's eye savants
4x tide drifter
2x monastery flock
Artifacts
2x spidersilk net
4x Sphinx's tutelage
4x assault formation
2x evolutionary leap
4x fruit of the first tree
Sorceries
2x taigam's scheming
2x treasre cruise
4x yavimaya coast
3x lumbering falls
3x thornwood falls
2x blighted cataract
2x blighted woodland
5x forest
5x island
Probably gonna replace the thornwood falls with just some evolving wilds tbh, fulfills the same purpose plus fuels cruise. Then again if anyone has better ideas on improving the manabase I'm all ears. Considering going sultai for kin-tree invocation and some black draw spells but not sure if it's necessary yet.
So yeah anyways the deck at first glance seems weird I'm sure, it seems to be wanting to accomplish 2 different gameplans but I've found out surprisingly that these 2 plans compliment each other pretty well. The main card that ties them both together is fruit of the first tree. Basically, it's an "oops I win spell" with tutelage and a sac outlet on field. Gain 6 life and 6 tutelage activations? Yes please. Plus even if you don't have tutelage on the field, I've found it might as well give your wall hexproof cuz nobody wants to use a kill spell on it then, even if it's swinging in big with ass formation.
This is where evolutionary leap comes in. The card is obviously great at blanking removal and making sure I always have some sort of threat present/triggering fruit, but also kinda sorta helps stack my deck and helps draws out a tad. All around good card, and always love seeing a string of lands put down to the bottom of the deck after grabbing a wall.
spidersilk net is just an idea I'm trying out as it's an easy pump spell that sticks around plus gives reach, since flyers can be somewhat of a problem for this deck. Honestly it might just be better in the sideboard though.
taigam's scheming is a necessary evil because commune with the gods is no longer in standard and I'm still pissed we don't have some sort of equivalent.
hangarback walker is in mainly cuz it's a good card but also has some random synergies in the deck. tide drifter becomes a lord for the walker and it's tokens when formation is on the field, plus the usual sac synergies with faithful and leap.
So that's the deck! Lemme know what you think and help me out with ratios! I know it needs it.
Been testing this spicy brew online this last week and I'm considering sleeving it up and trying it out this FNM. Let me know what you guys think.
3x relic seeker
4x knight of the white orchid
3x Archangel of Tithes
2x Emeria Shepherd
Artifacts
4x Helm of the Gods
2x Sword of the Animist
4x silkwrap
2x mastery of the unseen
4x stasis snare
2x retreat to emeria
4x sigil of the empty throne
2x starfield of nyx
4x windswept heath
2x blighted steppe
1x tomb of the spirit dragon
1x rogue's passage
16x plains
(Can be either windswept heath or flooded strand, doesn't matter, just there for the landfall. Maybe I should have a playset of both, idk)
Now, this deck MIGHT be trying to do too much, but I can't deny the synergies present here between the different strategies
Some notes:
-This deck has a much higher threat density than the earlier "pure" enchantment version I was playing before, and I like that. Now instead of starfield and sigil being the only game enders in the deck, I can also win by any other number of ways, like beating down with a helm-equipped knight/seeker/token, swarming and pumping with retreat triggers, etc.
-Bumped Starfield down to 2 in this deck, while it's a very potent card I'm tired of it being the sole reason why I lose games. Now at 2 it becomes purely a lategame threat I can drop and then swing in for a whole bunch of surprise damage after they've dealt with all of my guys.
-Archangel of tithes is just a good card by itself of course, even if it's a lightning rod for removal. It can stall pretty well till I can start dropping threats, and if it does get removed It's a prime reanimation target with the shepherd. Not sure if 3 copies is correct though, only problem.
-Speaking of the shepherd, the card is a lot better than I thought it'd be. Idk if I've actually finally found a home in standard for the card yet, but it does work here. With the surprising amount of ramp we got here (mono white probably shouldn't have access to this kind of ramp) from things like knight and sword, getting up to 8+ mana is EASY. Very often I'll hold up playing a fetchland till after I throw down the shepherd (or retreat, but I'll get to that) and just cascade advantage from there. Doesn't even matter if shepherd dies next turn, I'm already up in card advantage.
-retreat to emeria is an amazing card. The fact that it turns all of your lands into 1/1s is potent in it of itself, but very often I'm able to get triggers off of it 2-3 or even 4 times in 1 turn. Pumping your entire board +3/+3 can win games by itself. I think I want more than just 2 copies in this deck, but not sure yet how I want to rearrange ratios yet.
-I'm really not sure if mastery of the unseen should be mainboarded here or not tbh. The reason it's there of course is to make more dudes to attach helms and swords too, but I'm probably already covered in that department. The fact that it also puts cards in the yard for the shepherd to reanimate is a bonus too, but idk. Maybe better as a sideboard card, but I guess that's why I'm posting this in the first place lol, to get your opinions.
So that's the deck, any and all critiques are of course appreciated. No side yet, that will come soon. I'm not married to the idea of keeping it mono colored of course, that's not a requirement here, and I'll probably end up at least splashing a little bit, either for blue or green or maybe both, depending on what I want my sideboard to look like.
Cheers!
ojutai's exemplars might be worth a look as well, prowess, hard to kill, might be worth it as a midgame threat that can also finish the game if it stays on long enough.
You might as well turn this into a token build tbh, you're already halfway there, might as well go all out lol. retreat to emeria might just seem like a weaker gideon, but if you build your deck with it in mind it's surprisingly powerful. With fetchlands it becomes terrifying. Pumping up a field of tokens from secure the wastes last turn a couple of times puts out a crapton of damage out of nowhere. knight of the white orchid and to a lesser extent sword od the animist are retreat's best friends. Also, the fact that it turns all of your lands into chumps is not something to scoff at either.
I'm liking you guys' decklists a lot, definitely giving me ideas. Especially using Collected Company! Totally forgot about that card while brewing up the deck, I can see it be amazing with the krasis and harbinger of the tides and even with silumgar sorcerer. Will have to test it out for myself
I'll (probably) be going to this week's WNM so I'll be sure to put a report in then.
I was doing a little online testing last night of a W/B version using wasteland stranglers and relic seekers/helm of the gods when I realized I really wish there were more pillow fort type effects in standard. Citadel siege helps a lot but wish there was more. We have PLENTY of removal enchantments but only relying on removal just isn't enough sometimes, if we had pillow fort enchantments I think it would really take this deck over the top. Maybe try going all in on the Citadel sieges and dampening pulses? Dunno, I might test something like that.
By the way, going on what I said earlier, helm of the gods is actually really freaking sweet. Maybe everyone except me already knew this but after finally testing with it I can see the appeal. It's often times as ridiculous as a cranial plating, and if you get multiple on the field it can be hard for your opponent to deal with. What's more is I really like the extra threat density that helm brings, it was kinda nice not JUST having to rely on sigil or the super risky starfield as a finisher to close out the game.
Got any other tops for the deck though?
4x frost walker
4x rattleclaw mystic
2x harbinger of the tides
2x stratus dancer
4x bounding krasis
2x hooded hydra
2x surrak, the hunt caller
4x whisperwood elemental
3x sagu mauler
3x Kiora, master of the depths
Sorceries
2x Treasure Cruise
Instants
3x Stubborn Denial
Lands
2x Lumbering Falls
4x Yavimaya Coast
2x Thornwood Falls
2x tomb of the spirit dragon
1x blighted woodland
1x blighted cataract
7x forest
6x island
(No sideboard yet)
So yeah the basic idea is to just tempo the ever living crap out of the opponent while transitioning to the long game with big threats like whisperwood and hooded hydra if need be.
-Surrak and bounding krasis go together like 2 peas in a pod. Flashing in the krasis at the end of their turn and tapping down a jace or mantis rider or something then playing surrak and swinging in for 8 feels sooooooo good.
-frost walker is a surprising early game mvp, especially against controll-y decks. Comes down too early for counterspells and easily swings in multiple times before being dealt with cuz honestly who wants to use a kill spell on frost walker?? Also a good early blocker against aggro and of course turns on stubborn denial super early which is always great. You usually don't even care when he finally dies either, as he just becomes more food for the delve.
-Went with treasure cruise over dig through time since cruise is less blue intensive and honestly draw 3 is usually gonna be enough for this deck most of the time. Could be persuaded to change this though, the fact that cruise is a sorcery kinda bums me out
-Kiora is working out pretty sweet not gonna lie. I often times use her +1 over her -2 to keep mana up for my flashy dudes or for stubborn denial. Her -2 also does a great job at fueling delve. Haven't gotten her to ultimate yet unfortunately but hey a guy can dream.
-The morph sub-theme works pretty great I've found, not just with whisperwood but with playing mind games in general. "Is that a rattleclaw or a sagu mauler? Should I counter/kill it or let it go through?"
-Speaking of morph, hooded hydra is surprisingly awesome. It's being touted as the "budget replacement to hangarback" I've noticed around here but in this deck it actually does some work. Hitting hydra off of a whisperwood manifest is freaking awesome of course but he's also not bad at all to just cast for 3 then flip for 5 next turn. Ties into the whole mindgames thing. Also works as a ridiculously scary late game mana sink. Hardcasting him for 8+ mana while you have a surrak on field is probably GG. It's flexible in the sense that it's good at basically all times in the game sans the super early game.
The ideal christmasland early curve scenario here is as follows:
T1 forest or island
T2 land play frostwalker
T3 land swing with walker and play a facedown rattleclaw mystic
T4 land swing with walker (if still alive) unmorph the mystic using 2 mana to gain 3 floating mana. Tap the mystic for a 4th floating mana and play Kiora off the floating mana. +1 kiora to untap a land and the mystic or the frostwalker. You now have 3-4 open mana to flash in a bounding krasis or harbinger of the tides on their turn if need be.
Proceed to run away with the game from there.
So yeah that's the deck, it's been a surprising amount of fun from the testing I've done with it so far. The main thing I need help with I think is some sort of removal. Maybe some Fight effects in green? Also the ratios could probably (definitely) be tweaked. I'm not above splashing a 3rd color but I'm curious to see if this can be at the very least semi-viable in just G/U colors. Thanks for any feedback!