Alternatively, he could be kneeling as one does in confession. 'Forgive me, father, for I hath sinned' seems like it would be an appropriate fit for Banishment Decree's theme.
Less likely but also possible. The fact remains we have no hints as to what he is actually thinking or feeling. I would suggest simply moving on from this one. There's no real possible answer to it and all arguments are based on guesses we're just pulling out of our rears.
But that's just it, you're kind of ignoring the fact that white has a spectrum. It doesn't need black to do evil.
True, but it does usually need black to be evil. Anybody can do the wrong thing by mistake. The motivation to do it on purpose requires a darker heart.
Seriously, this statement alone kind of reveals to me that you, like many people are stuck on the idea that white can't be evil without attaching black to its mana cost.
Then perhaps you should be careful about jumping to conclusions.
You also need to be more consistant. Is your point that white can be evil? Do evil? Or simply be an antagonist? Three seperate answers that each require a different response from me.
Look at Konda! I wasn't even around when kamigawa was new and I know that.
I started playing the year Champions of Kamigawa came out. You should probably do some further research into Konda because you jump to conclusions about him aswell. The Novel painted a much clearer picture of him than you might glean from the flavor text of a handfull of cards. Konda wasn't evil, merely a puppet and an antagonist.
I love how threads on the Wizards community forums almost always just get replayed over here. And on topic, as an illustrator I love both of these cards and as a player I want that knight. These Praetors may be the first cards I collect just to own and not play with because their art is so epic.
I will, however, probably seek out and play that paladin just for the awesome factor.
Oh so you were on the mtg community forums aswell eh? Liked my phyrexians in white thread?
In any case I also need to get myself a handfull of those paladins...
Adolf Hitler was White through and through, and he is widely regarded as the most evil man in all of known history.
Hitler is RBW at best.
RED
Hitler was very passionate and emotional in his speeches, also prone to being very impulsive. He encourages the german soldier to use his rage in battle like the berserkers of old. His preferred tactic in battle? Blizkrieg (lightning war) Rush the enemy front. Hit them hard and fast before any real retaliation can be formed. As if he thought his army has haste.
BLACK
Hitler believed the Aryans were decendants of gods kicked out of heaven for being evil. He used anti-semetic feelings in germany to stir up negative feelings against the jews to use them as scapegoats for the German loss in WW1 putting his own people's harships on them. Nazi aggression towards jews was not in response to anything. No threat. No violence. Nothing a white aligned character would see as reason for arresting a person. They just wanted sombody to persecute.
WHITE
I really just added it in to try and comromise. Best reasoning I can give is what MaRo said in the Orzhov article about BW being willing to further their own community at the cost of all others.
I have found that White evil and Blue evil have the potential to be the most utterly horrific.
Have you even ever looked at black cards? At least if your enemies are white or blue, you can expect that your worst possible end is imprisonment or a clean death.
Want to fight red? I hope your prepared to be Incinerated from the inside out. A horrible fiery death.
Black? Oh thats the worst. Ever pondered Terror? Thats you literally being scared to death. You will feel terror so intense it will kill you. Ripped to pieces by zombies. Tortured. Mutilated. And thats just what happens before you die....
Green is pretty much as brutal as it gets. You'll be crushed by unimaginably immense beasts, Ripped apart by cheetahs, pitten by poisionous snakes, get filled by elven arrows till you look like a porcepine. Maybe eaten by a carnivorous plant.
And blue and white are the horrific ones huh? lol.
Blue may wink you out of existence or perhaps put you to sleep. No, not like a pound may do to a stray animal. literally asleep.. Sounds kinda humane after the other colors.
Now white, you'll be lucky if you only have to worry about pissing white off. Worst case scenario, a White Knight rides you down and impales you on his lance. Maybe a lawfull execution. Thats the worst you'll see.
Hitler would actually be White-Red at best... Contrary to popular belief, Hitler showed a lot of rage and made a lot of people question his ability to lead during hard times. Erwin Rommel for instance referenced the issue of Hitler making "Stand or Die" orders when the army should have retreated and regrouped, mostly in a fit of anger.
Erwin Rommel! Now there's a true white antagonist.
On a side note, how many people would give up their humanity to become Praetors if given the chance? I know I would.
Rather reign in hell than serve in heaven eh? Condemn your speicies and former friends to horrific ends? A valid choice I suppose. If you get to be a Praetor I get to be an Angel or Sun Titan though...I'm just saying.
Seriously? You're just going to switch hats with a well-reasoned and rational personality? Is this some sort of bait and switch trap? Play the inflexible stalwart who won't stand for some injustice. Then when we assail your flawed logic and close-mindedness, you swap out and now you're the rounded and level-headed wise man? You can't have it both ways. Either admit that there is flavorful space for white Phyrexians, or stick to a narrow view of white.
Could you post the response of mine you are arguing rather than saying simply "Snip"? Otherwise I have no idea what you're referring to.
Furthermore, I don't get were people get off saying White is the most selfish color. I mean, really? Where did you get that idea? There really aren't that many White cards that only work on other White cards. Black on the other hand, has plenty of cards that only work for other Black cards and Black seems the most hesitant to destroy it's own, power up your own and kill everything else is something Black does.
The common misconception is that anything involving either Judeo-christian history or government is often attributed to white. So many evils have been committed by governments in history and religions that if all were attributed to white, it would look pretty bad. Most folks who are fans of other colors love to see white in a negative light. easier to justify opposing it I guess. And they also mistakenly percieve goodguy white to be the norm and so being contrary by saying otherwise makes em feel smart.
But by hurting society, the brick hurt itself. And since the brick it's mad from powerlust, he will not harm his own power, even if this mean "not harming anyone else in the structure". It's all about seeing what's not right and wrong, but what does hurt and what does favor you. Climbing the structure is counter productive, and as such, no brick will ever move from it's own position.
Remember: the brick is a amoral brick. He has spikes on the sides, but he's not stupid. He knows what will happen if he moves.
Amoral people can be pretty stupid. Often they don't give a care about such things simply because they probably won't really adversly affect us till long after this person believes they will be dead. They take what they can and leave the next generation to clean up the mess.
You're actually describing something called ethical egoism...
Edit: In other words, it's not coherent to talk about actions being amoral in themselves, because amorality is a term relative to a system of morality. You actually need some kind of de facto normativity to take any kind of action at all; judgments of value are an essential component to motivation. In ethical egoism that's valuing what fits with self-interest (and amorality would be not considering self-interest).
? Amoral people tend to not believe in morality. Often times they are self focused. I don't need everybody in the world to agree with my moral judgements in order to have or act on them.
I know that, and I think it's cool. What I'm saying is that they've crossed the line with this one. The aesthetic is too far from mono-White is or could be that it's just a mockery of everything they've done so far.
White never attacks black just because the black mage chooses to reanimate dead bodies, embraces un-life or some such thing? Umm.. yes they do, wether it is because they (it.. whay do you call a color anyway) think it's icky to raise the dead, or they think it's desecration of the bodies, or simply are scared of the undead, it doesn't really matter.
Raising zombies is slavery of the worst kind. You're murdering a being, then forcing it's conciousness back into the rotting shell to keep locked in servitude as long as it's physical form exists.
I'd have a problem with that if it existed in real life. Most people would.
Oh, look, you found somebody else who seems to feel that corrupting white infringes upon or invalidates your real-life beliefs (for you defend white with such strength that I can't help but think you have some investment in it).
Don't we all? How would white phyrexians invalidate any real-life beliefs? As much as I like to argue about them, they really are just a card game based on the ideas of sombody in a game company.
You're so concerned that your closed-minded worldview will be shattered, and blind to the needs of the game and story, how White of you.
You know nothing of my worldview. All you know about me is that I dislike phyrexians in white. And that I play knights alot most likely. That you think you can judge my whole character simply by my opinion on a single part of a single faction in a card game seems somewhat arrogant. As if you think I fit this nice, narrow steriotype wizards has called "White". Are you sure it's me being the close-minded one?
I will bring these quotes up when a white card is spoiled that takes control of a creature with -1/-1 counters on it. It'd be pretty sweet if that were Elesh's ability. That's when, not if. Because if Wizards misses this obvious opportunity for a flavorful card, I will have no recourse but to assume they are 100% stupid.
Through your filter, and ignoring the fact that each color is a spectrum. I think that's your biggest problem, you can't understand how a world of white horrors can coexist with your happy view of a bunch of white knights.
I don't ignore the spectrum of possibilities that may apply to each color. I'm fully aware of them. White horrors just seems so...immature I guess. What an unimaginative way to represent white characters being antagonists. It should be more subtle. Not just taking normal black villans and literally painting them white and saying "Look everybody! It's white being a jerk! Are you not entertained?!"
However, if you think about it, and got two white religious groups, with different religious structures, they would be the most likely to fight. So what needs to happen here is that you need to open your mind and realize that each color can accommodate many things and many people, and that it won't suddenly invalidate your beliefs. You'll just have to be more specific about which tenants of white you hold dear.
Actually I think white and red groups would be the most likely to fight. Red is reckless and doesn't know the meaning a subtlety. So they would be the most likely to catch the eye of a white group. And being imulsive, red would be the least likely to be willing to sit down and talk it over.
I think two white groups of different religious views would probably be less likely to fight. White unlike most colors tends to like peace. It would be the most likely to start a conflict with words rather than swords which may lead to diplomatic solutions.
I think a fine real world example would be Roman Catholics vs East orthodox christians back in medieval times. They really didn't like eachother but other than the 4th crusade which didn't attack over religious differences, the conflict was pretty much limited to priests traveling back and forth debating with eachother. Which did get ugly sometimes but never resorted to combat as far as I have read.
However, the idea of two white aligned organizations actually fighting is not a new idea. It happened in Odyssey when Captain Piana and Lieutenant Kirtar disagreed about what should be done with the mirari. And it'll surely happen again.
Okay...but you admit that white can be these things. But, yet, you're not okay with them appearing in your color? Oh, right, you're White, so it's flavorful to have hypocrisy.
There's plenty of dogmatic or Authoritarian white cards that I am not arguing about. So if you're going by the scientific method, you'd want to eliminate those two ideas from your idea of what my motivations for arguing may be. Because every dogmatic or authoritarian white card I don't disagree with is an inconsistancy with that line of thought.
So, guess I'm lucky in that way, thay I think with my own mind and not for a second think like the leaders of our societies would want us to think.
Simply thinking with a moral focus does not mean you're letting sombody else do your thinking for you. It strikes me that you may be having difficulty seperating morality and religion. And at least here in America, it looks like many of our leaders want us to think selfishly. As long as you think you may somday be wealthy too, you'll not want to rock the boat and call it out when rich folks try to make the government work for them.
speaking of persecute, Radiant always seemed a worthwhile precedent to looking at Elesh Norn. though she seceded her sanity, she and her tainted angels consistently took notoriously malicious actions under the name of judgment by rule of law.
they only acted under this directive through deception on Phyrexia's part, committing a large degree of atrocious mass-killing and persecutions. despite this, Radiant, and any card directly associated with her actions, are all white.
Not a bad point. It's true radiant was tainted by phyrexia and went pretty evil as a result yet remained mono-white.
I think the reason I don't have a problem with that is because Radiant is still a regular angel. So she is still physically a creature that embodies white mana while also having the excuse that any evils she committed were the direct result of black corruption.
Not true. Even without morality, the world could be a good place to live. Imagine that every single being is a brick; and that all those bricks built up a house. If a being suddendly decide to act against another one, the whole structure weaken, and in the end, even the first "criminal" being is weaken by it's own act, when the whole gigantic structure collapse on itself.
Being amoral is not the same as being a idiot, or a b-movie villain....
True, but I still feel an amoral worldview is about as short-sighted as they come. Can't see past one's own nose.
Anyways imagine in your scenario is one brick decides it would like to be higher on the wall? It moves to the top. The ones near it say "Oh no way I'm gonna let him climb to the top if I am stuck down here." they move. More think the same thing and move. Pretty soon the fundation is gone and the whole thing collapses.
Amorality is the reason the gulf of Mexico is dying from bp's spill. The reason the polar icecaps are melting. The reason the Amazon is dissapearing. It's self destructive and the world cannot sustain an amoral society forever. Everybody is too focused on taking their share to notice the world is dying around them.
I think someone is forgetting Konda basically destroyed the world for immortality. I don't recall him ever helping the orochi, I recall him sitting in a room with his precious object and doing anything to get it back. He commited the worst "sin" possible on Kamigawa.
Third book in the Kamigawa series. Konda is leading his warped army in search of his stolen prize when he comes across the Soratami wiping out the Orochi. He immediately diverts much of his army and defeats the soratami saving the orochi in the process.
I don't think all the White Phyrexians just go around forcefully converting Mirrans.
Some flavor texts said that some Mirrans were accepting to be compleated VOLUNTARILY. Since White Phyrexians are priests and the like, I imagine they are the faction responsible for the majority of the converts.
We don't have a White Phyrexian card that explicitely says so yet, but check out Banishment Decree The Vulshok near the priest doesn't seem to be scared at all.
He's kind of huddling on his knees. We don't see his face. I would guess he's somwhat uncomfortable. Probably terrified.
Notice here that MaRo is very careful to never use good and evil but right and wrong. These two things, however, are often extremely hard to define (and while I think we can all agree flaying people's flesh and taking away their free will is wrong it's a quite extreme example) and that's why Elesh Norn is creepy. She's an example of what happens when you pervert the idea of morality. White phyrexia uses religion as a weapon to subdue and subjugate. Again the my way or the highway deal.
Yeah, morality perverted. That's why I think it fits more in BW.
The rakdos cult does not really count here as a good example of why phyrexia can't be white just because other colors have religion. Everything I found about the Rakdos says that they didn't really have an opinion about right or wrong with regard to killing people. They were unapologetic hedonists who didn't even BELIEVE in right or wrong. To a hedonist the only thing that matters is enjoying oneself. A very black attitude.
There are other black religious beliefs to choose from. pick one. Heck, look at the old black phyrexians.
As I said, morality is dependent on the person's own point of view, there are as many "rights and wrongs" as there are people, and no singular "true morale/ethic". I'm happy that not everyone think with cold emotion-free logic as I do, it gives me an edge in life
So you're baisically a parasite on the rest of humanity concerned only with your own happiness and how much others can benefit you? I often wonder how folks like that justify their existence. How they can live knowing they have no value. It's a mental state I cannot comprehend.
And Tivadar was a hero from the point of view of humans and elves and whatnot, and he was a murderer and massacrer (is that a word?) from the point of view of the goblins, so why would he be treated as "good"?
Because Tivadar's Crusade was a defensive war.
The goblins started it. To put it simply.
Sombody who's name I forgot once said somhing close to this.
"I think the only just war is a defensive one. And righteous in the eyes of god."
I don't believe in his god but I fully agreed with the speaker's meaning. The easiest and most clear-cut thing to justify violence is to prevent death or injury as a result of violence committed by sombody else.
And with that I think I am gong to pass out. Goodknight everybody. I'll try and remember to stop by here agan.
Because there can't be anything that is ultimately right or wrong, since those concepts are solely based on one's personal view of the word. So why shouldn't they be ignored, since they can't mean the same thing for everyone, and if it means a certain thing for majority, it means nothing, since white should think that everyone is equal (even those who do not think like they do).
Because if everybody ignored morality altogether, the word would be a horrible place to live in. You couldn't trust anyone. Everybody would be out to screw everybody else over.
Morality is what makes life livable. Both literally and emotionally. You are probably still alive right now because of other people's ideas of what is right and wrong. I didn't wait outside of your house yesterday waiting shoot you and take your money because I believe that would be an evil thing to do. (assuming I could find you)
— n
1. a person who governs oppressively, unjustly, and arbitrarily; despot
2. any person who exercises authority in a tyrannical manner
3. anything that exercises tyrannical influence
4. (esp in ancient Greece) a ruler whose authority lacked the sanction of law or custom; usurper
Note that the fourth definition was the original. Much like poor 'decimate', 'tyrant' has suffered a cruel and unusual punishment. Anyway, whether or not such a usage is archaic doesn't really matter anymore.
According to my dictionary:
2. A ruler who exercises power, in a harsh or cruel manner.
3. An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.
Though yeah the first definition baisically says "a person with absolute authority". So going by that, you're correct and that narrow definition can coincide with white.
However, I would still say it is a misleading identification to make for white since the word evokes thoughts more like 2 and 3 of my dictionary.
Coming back to Mirrodin was not an attempt at restoring the role of artifacts in standard play like once upon a time ago, but rather an excuse to experiment with the colour wheel yet again.
Whether or not they were able to convincingly do so at a flavour perspective, this new visit to Mirrodin seems to be them trying to find how much of each colour they can justify mechanically bleeding into anouther.
I can definitely understand how white can believe to have a place in Phyrexia. The problem I think is that white and black are being perceived as "good and evil" rather than means to an end. If white is established as being a firmly ordered approach on how life must be lived, then it is acceptable that an organization that has intentions, whether they are selfless or selfish, believes the best way to achieve their goals is to maintain such a structure. Using symbolic words such as "glory," "blessed," and "right" are just anouther way to convincingly win support.
It's kind of like the Orzhov Syndicate. Due to the theme of Ravnica, it was both white and black- Black symbolizing the intent, and white the means to achieving that intent. Then again that organization was alot more "black and white" (pun intended) where the leadership seemed to accept their facade as nothing more than a way to get what they wanted.
"White Phyrexia" seems to genuinely believe that in order to create the perfect organism, it has to be done so with these white principles. If they genuinely believe that this is the correct way of living, then being coloured white to represent order and unconditional unity to this ideal is appropriate.
Again, if white and black are looked as good and evil, then we have to remember through whose eyes we are looking through. I think that if there was a group of people playing MTG in a society that would view these fundamental Phyrexian ideals as appropriate, then what would be labeled black by most would be considered white, and so forth. Since all Phyrexians who can, believe becoming "mutilated," "evolved," "purified," "perfected," or whatever, is for a greater good, then they all would be white.
White and black are nothing more than colours. They represent what people believe it should. Personally, I think that since the story established Phyrexians as a malicious entity and antogonists, the appropriate thing to do, would be to make Phyrexian representations of the different ideals multi-coloured, all sharing the colour black. Much like how in Ravnica you had the four black-aligned guilds to highlight such a relationship, the same should have been done here to show how the Phyrexian fundamental ideals (which are almost unanimously accepted to be "Black") interracted with the other colours. At a design perspective I think this should have been the route taken.
But again, I think this was just an experiment to justify bleeding the colour wheel again through a story. Or, while the concept had potential, it just was horribly designed.
I do like the artwork for Elesh Norn, though. When I first saw the Priests of Norn back in Scars, I was instantly satisfied with the style used. It definitely does tell everything as to how she envisions the future of Phyrexia to be. However, like others point out, I am given the feeling that there is an underlying realization that it is all just a facade. As that one quote mentions, Elesh is anxious to "play an angel" because she finds it far more appealing. There is so much emphasis on how functionality is tied with image. These porcelein(?) masks that the White Phyrexian wears only emmulates purity, and in essence is hiding the otherwise deficient characteristics of the different organisms. All the rhetoric used is simply a way to control the sentiment of the following base to support this perception of perfection as absolute.
That sounds pretty "black" to me- No matter how many nice words you use to explain yourself...
The "paladin" is unimpressive. It's the typical attempt to make a knight "stand out" from a regular soldier. Unfortunately, the more "BAMF" they try to make them, the less I get the feeling they really are. The paladins that depict grace, yet nonetheless power, are far more interesting to me.
I agree. I believe phyrexians in this set should all at least be gold cards with black as one of their colors.
I think the paladin looks pretty powerfull. Look at the field of phyrexian corpses he's fighting through.
And look at his face. There's no sense of fear or fatigue. I see only Stalwart determination. As if to say "I've killed a thousand horrors today and I shall kill a thousand more before I'm done."
I m igth have chosen my words a little poorly there, so that my point was not made. I ment, there is nothing "good" in the world of Magic, just as there isn't in the real world. "Goodness" is a misconception, a ruse by those in power and of organized religions
And I thought I would get to bed ontime tonight. I should have never visited the forums. /sigh.
That is an opinion. Your own belief. One actually pretty similar to what black is described as believeing Check this out.
From the article "Lookng out for number one"
I don't even believe in the concept of evil. It relies on the existence of absolute truths which, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever proved the existence of.
The white article on the other hand "Peace, Love and Understanding."
The purpose of life is simple: Do good things. Be a good person. Help those around you. There is a moral path. Follow it.
Just because what is ultimately right and wrong isn't written in stone. doesn't mean it should be ignored completely.
You would also be mistaken if you believed morality cannot be completely secular. Religion is simply a very effective means of enforcing morality, not the source of it.
I would also like to point out that in the 3rd Kamigawa book. Konda saved the Orochi from annialation by the Soratami despite their differences and that they had no previous alliance whatsoever.
There are countless instances of white characters helping others in books, mechanics or flavor text.
It does not aid it's enemies, it aids you (the player who playes white).
Path of Peace, Swords to plowshares help both you and your opponent. The other cards I mentioned can all have their abilitis directed towards helping other players if you chose to do so.
The iconic white leaders are zealots, crusaders. Not exactly compassionate towards those who do not share their view of the world. So, they are tyrants, they force you to live by their standards, force yout to put the need of tha many before your own needs and ideals. So they are evil, facist and religious to the point of being dangerous zealots.
On a side note, Orim is a good character in Magic lore, forgot about her. But as for everyone else...
How about Captain Piana? Nagao, bound by Honor? Nagao may fit the description of a zealot but not all zealots are evil. He fought to save the Kitsune and later the wizards of Minamo. He saved alot of people.
How about Serra? Tivadar of Thornhas some dark cards that bear his name (Tivadar's crusade) But if you actually read about him, he was a hero. He saved the humans and elves of the area from genocide by goblins.
What about Elspeth? Is she tyrannical? Fascist? Zealous? Sofar, no.
Ajani?
Brigid?
Gideon?
Rafiq?
Venser?
Orim of course as you say.
Actually pick out each white character and take a look. The bad ones are a serious minority.
EDIT: A tyrant is actually someone who leads but wasn't chosen by the laws of the country, so its very possible to have good tyrants. For instance, a rebel leader who overthrows the government is a tyrant. Julius Caesar is a good example of a benevolent tyrant (at least, at first, it gets more debatable later).
You're thinking of a "Dictator" I suspect. Some dictators are fine. Tyrants really tend to be defined by the cruel or harshness of the methods they use while in their position of authority.
And I maintain that they fall within the continuum of interpretation of White philosophy. They push some boundaries more than others, but they still fit in their core beliefs and ideology. Traits like order and community aren't monopolized by white, but Norn's Phyrexians are defined by them, in contrast to their kin, who embrace different paths. The fact that their most defining, distinguishing traits line up with White core values is plenty justification for me.
Within the relative context of New Phyrexia, Norn's followers are the Whitest. Sheoldred's are the Blackest. Vorinclex's are the Greenest. And so on. They push at boundaries when laid next more conventional or traditional expressions of those colors, but within the context of their environment they translate the same basic values through a different lens. The color black in Lorwyn is a bit off compared to traditional black flavor, but in the context of its setting it fits black values into that particular framework. The same here, we have white values interpreted within the framework of a diverse Phyrexian society.
I don't wholly agree with you. But that's probably one of the best arguments I have heard for white phyrexians.
While we don't have any real info yet on their real motivations that I'm aware of and therefore need to go by flavor text of white phyrexian cards, the white phyrexian characters are very orderly. And white likes order.
I don't argue that area. My biggest problem is in their physical forms and methods.
Physically they are baisically a new variety of zombies. (White does't like undead. Undead Slayer)
Method wise, they re pretty much roaming the countryside brutally attacking whoever they find.
They are using plagues and necromancy to corrupt mirran lifeforms and physically and mentally warping them.
I just don't feel one can ignore the black traits that seem rather overwhelming to me simply because a single narrow aspect fits white's color pie.
For those wondering how infect could possibly be white, think about this:
1. White prefers to weaken/subdue enemies, rather than outright killing them.
2. Regular damage cannot weaken, it can only kill.
3. Infect damage can weaken.
4. Given 1, 2 and 3, white should actually prefer infect damage to regular damage.
It is true that black also likes to weaken its enemies. The difference is that black has no qualms over whether it weakens or kills. It simply chooses whichever one gives the best cost to benefit ratio for the current situation. White on the other hand sees weakening/subduing as the preferable outcome.
White subdues but almost never weakens. And infect does tend end in death ya know.
"My color is White. I value law, order, community and light. I love to protect the social order and the rule of law. At my best I am just and protective. At my worst, I am authoritarian and dogmatic."
Nowhere does that quote say white has a monopoly on Dogma and being Authoritarian. Nor does it say other colors do not have the same qualities.
It is simply saying that that is the lowest white will sink.
White phyrexians feel so hollow to me. They have pretty white plates. Pretty white words to cover up their back traits. But nothing else. Empty. they lack anything that truly makes somthing white. The white plates covering a normally black zombie are to me both literally and symbolically representative of what wizards has done in this block.
I'm a little confused about this "Phyrexia should not be white".. How is persecution, tyranny and forcing others to live by your moral compass not white?
Tyrants like say Cabal Patriarch or Sedris, the Traitor Kingare black. The reasoning is that an individual looking out for personal needs who finds themself in a position of authority would be fine opressing the people if it increases his powerbase.
All colors have their idea of how the world should be. here comes the obligatory run down of each color's objectives!
Green believes natural order is right.
Blue believes whatever is most efficient is right.
Red believes that others should not infringe on it's personal liberties. At all.
Black thinks there's no moral compass at all and to think there is one is stupid. It's fully capable and often willing to target those who think otherwise.
White thinks compassion is right. And like others it often ready to punish those who act against that.
I disagree. The essence of white is compassion. White at it's heart lives to help others. All of white's methods; law, healing, protecton, and so on are all given purpose by the need to help others.
There is, never was, and propably never will be, anything "good" in any color (or combination) in M:tG.
Did you just effectively say "There is anything good" and "there never was anything good-" in the same sentence?
Okay I have a few points to make about this opinion. First of all white has Righteousness
First point! Ever looked up the definition of righteousness? Lets see what this big ole dictionary beside me has to say about it shall we?
1. Morally upright; without guilt or sin.
2. In accordance with virtue or morality.
3. Morally justifiable.
Now I could agree with you if the card had quotation marks. like, "Righteousness" implying that it's simply what sombody thinks is right. But there are no quotation marks. This card represents literal righteousness. White is capable of literally gaining power by sheer goodness.
Now I am not saying white is always good, or incapable of evil. But I am saying there's alot of good in white. That much at least cannot be denied.
Now I would also like to point out that good is in the eye of the beholder. Duh, I know. And this beholder (not the D&D monster) sees alot of concepts I consider good in white.
These are all things I really admire. Other colors have many admirable traits but white has the most important. So your statement there is wrong simply because it's based opinion rather than anything that can be proven. Maybe you do not respect anything any color has ever done but I have seen many things I think are good.
Zombies are black - Why? White has magic that can resurrect the dead. There are non-black zombies in magic. Black does not have exclusive rights to magic that manipulates the realm of the dead.
It's true that mechanically, white and black are similar. Flavorwise they are miles apart.
White uses true resurrection. a dead person becomes a living, thinking being again
Black uses necromancy. A dead person becomes a moving corpse.
It's true, every once in a while there's a non-black zombie. But reallistically I think you can safely say that black is the zombie king.
Infect is black - Ideologically, is there a reason why a method of neutralizing one's enemies that converts them to your point of view would be exclusively black? Converting others to join one's flock is a perfectly valid tactic for a white creature or character to use.
Not if by "converting them" you mean that they are being horribly killed or mutilated and their pieces are reformed into somthing entirely different that likes phyrexia. Lets keep things in perspective here.
Phyrexians are supposed to be black - The old ones were. The new ones don't come from a plane saturated with exclusively black mana. The new ones have four other colors available to them, and they have embraced those nonblack possibilities as sources of strength. New Phyrexians are not Old Phyrexians. They are a different group, with different forms and different methods. They hold some of the Old Phyrexian legacy but have forged their own path. Even the Old Phyrexians had important parts of their basic ideology and culture that were awfully strange for mono-black. Such a great amount of structure, organization, and hierarchy has always bugged me, and didn't seem right for the Phyrexians' color. Now those elements have the chance to shine in a more fitting color.
It walkes like a black phyrexian, quacks like a black phyrexian, but it's a white phyrexian. Oookay.
Horrors are black - Why? Black doesn't have exclusive rights to the use of fear as a weapon either. White inspires fear in order to awe and convince their enemies that they are following the wrong path. Blue uses fear as a method of manipulation and control. Red inspires fear as part of its vast portfolio of strong, overwhelming emotions. Green embraces fear as the natural reaction of the prey towards its predator.
Search the gatherer for non-black horrors. Go on don't be shy. See how many there are.
Minions are black - Servants that serve a leader under a system of organized and highly structured hierarchical roles. Nope, that doesn't sound white at all, does it?
Heirarchy, structure and serving a superior is found in every color. Heck even red, the most anti structure color has structure. Though that isn't exactly what I mean by "minion". But whatever.
Mass genocide in favor of a certain group is black - Oh, really? White has a long history of punishing those outside of its own group, and rewarding members of its own flock.
My stance there is admittedly more shakey than others, however I would say that when the means is an infectious disease, it's black. Engineered Plague see?
Norn hasn't simply taught zombies how to say words. She honestly and earnestly believes in the messages she preaches. She and her followers use white mana in order to harness its power to create order and to purify, according to what she deems to be pure. She doesn't seek personal power, but aims to further the rise of all of Phyrexia, with the Father of Machines as its rightful ruler. That is a strong contrast to other praetors who would wish to take that throne for themselves to serve their own more selfish ends.
Aww a zombie with loyalty. How touching. Though I have yet to see a white phyrexian declare their purpose being "Order". If you read over the flavor text of all phyrexian cards sofar you'll see nothing of order. mostly just the idea that all other beings need to become phyrexians because being a phyrexians is better. So I'm not sure where this idea that "order is the point of white phyrexians" is coming from.
Though I will also point out that Blue and Black also tend to prefer order.
That is not even close to what I said. It's NOT RELIGION that makes them white. It's their devotion to ORDER, UNITY, HIERARCHY, and STRUCTURE that makes them white.
Order is common in white, black and blue.
Community is common in white, green and red.
Heirarchy is found in all colors.
Structure is an extremely broad thing. All colors have it. Red least of all. But it's there.
It's not simply the fact that they're religious that makes these Phyrexians white. It's the fact that their religion is, ultimately, about unity and togetherness, and order and hierarchy. It's not the religion that's white, it's the structure and values of this religion that are white.
Trying to apply logic of normal animal morphology doesn't make sense when the creature you're talking about is so heavily modified that it doesn't even have a racial type anymore. Phyrexian body structure is anything but obvious, and the principles that apply to natural beings don't have to hold true for them. Norn's creatures are built for a certain aesthetic, but the Priests weren't made to be fragile either, no matter how they look. The deception of seeming outwardly weak to lower the guard of their "converts" makes perfect sense as well.
I'm not sure what exactly is so dumb about infect in white? Flavorfully, it is the process of converting others to conform to a particular point of view, something that is not uncommon at all in white. "Join us or else." Mechanically, a very rough approximation of infect on a creature is to give it double strike whenever it attacks and isn't blocked (plus wither, which wasn't used in white in Shadowmoor for some reason). Double strike is certainly a white mechanic. Aggressive weenie creatures are staples of both infect archetypes as well as the color white. There's a lot of overlap.
Your entire baisis for white phyrexians is still "OMG they have religion! WHITE!"
And infect is like converting so it fits white? That reasoning is stretched so thin I really have difficulty giving it enough credibility to bother arguing it. If your going to strech your logic that much, why don't you just admit you can accept anything in white.
And one awsome paladin. Though I still find myself wondering how a knight living on a world of metal can't fnd the time to get himself a breastplate. Still, now I have somthing to look forward to in the next set.
I wonder whether the people who disagree with Norn and white Phyrexia don't understand white Phyrexia's ideas or don't understand white's ideas.
How about a third option? We're right. Yes, perhaps training your zombies to speak sanctimoniously does change their entire color alignment. I doubt it though.
Zombies are black.
Infect is black. (or green apparently. I don't get that either)
Phyrexians are supposed to be black.
Horrors are black.
Minions are black.
Mass genocide in favor of said zombies is also back.
But apparently if you glue white plates to your zombies and teach them words like "blessing!" and "glory!" all that other stuff can be ignored.
I personally think it's funny. The Zombie is literally wearing a white mask. literally. Not even figuratively. You can even still see the gore. And almost everyone is totally buying it hook line and sinker.
As I've mentioned, the Rakdos Cult. Their cult is their religion, they believe that killing people and themselves is the right thing to do. They don't think it's wrong, they don't do what they do just to be bad, they are just following their beliefs. Those beliefs happen to be chaotic and destructive, hence they are Black/Red.
Another (somewhat odd) comparison could be the goblins of Jund. Since they are on the bottom of the food chain, they have gotten used to be eaten. In fact, it's a way of life for them. Being eaten by a dragon is one of the highest honors for them, it's like the pinnacle of their religion, if you call it that. They are fairly chaotic though, so they are red. Sacrificing oneself for a cause could be considered White, couldn't it? But the way it's done is very Red.
Just because these Phyrexians believe they are doing people good by mutilating them doesn't mean that they really are. Sure, you could argue perspective, but...well...honestly...religions that would do stuff like that translated to Magic probably wouldn't be White. Just because they call themselves Priests doesn't mean they are White, take Priest of Gix or Priest of Yawgmoth for some great examples of Phyrexian "Priests" being in the proper colors.
One other thing I thought of...WHY do the Priests of Norn have high toughness? If anything, they should have terrible toughness. Same with Elesh. Oh, you want to have your organs on the outside? Well, sure, if you really want to make yourself as vulnerable as possible. All Will Be One? How about your toughness? That should be one!
And Poison in White? How is that not the dumbest thing in Magic the Gathering!?
Back to the Puresteel Paladin...I think the picture represents Hope, honestly. It does pretty well. It shows an unrelenting soldier, obviously getting worn down, but standing resolute after having slain some hideous creatures, his sword and shield bloodied from the battle. You can sense a bit of sorrow in his eyes, he looks tired, but at the same time, determined. He's in a dark warzone, obviously, but look behind him. There's a white, almost golden, light coming through the clouds. I think it represents hope for better days to come. We Will Endure!
Yes! I have finally found sombody who agrees with me on this. *highfive
I don't know about Tivadar. The opposing deck is supposed to be supported by Goblins, and Tivadar would be a lovely silver bullet, but Protection from Red is a steamroller if the Dragons deck is just one color. I wouldn't mind scoring another copy, but it would surprise me to see him included.
I'm surprised no one's spent much time considering the Dragon deck. Tatsumasa wouldn't be too bad, except it makes a blue dragon and unless the deck is multicolor, there may be fainting spells at including a blue dragon token in a red deck. A U/R dragon deck would be killer, though. If not for Tatsumasa, then at least for Keiga.
I don't think -1 goblin and 2 damage each turn could be considered a "silver bullet"
The dragon deck's purpose is presumably to stall with goblins so you can bring out big dragons. Tivadar by himslf is hardly going to stop it. Not like he'll be able to black a dragon all by himself.
Why the Steward hate? Seems like a cool card to me!
Agreed. Steward may just be a mediocre tap for mana guy who might swing on turn three in most decks but a G/W Knight deck can make some serious use of him.
Speaking of new tokens, I'm gonna cross my fingers for Griffin Guide in the Knight deck, simply because I'm tired of using Wild Griffin as a token in my Cube.
Green may not be the first color you'd think to pair with White for a Knight deck, but there are a few cards like Wilt-Leaf Liege and Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers that are just fine. Plus Green can provide some pump to ensure your Knights (Which are inherently small) can keep up with those big Dragons late game.
Knights have plenty of pump abilities in white. I know Crusade was in the Elspeth deck but I sure hope it's also in the knight deck...
I think now that Rafiq is definitelty not in the deck, I would hope to see Tivadar of Thorn printed with the rightfull knight creaturetype.
Here's a few others i'm gonna just throw out:
Sunlance A lance is a Knight's weapon Crusade Long shot since Elspeth did it, but it fits. Gallantry + Cloud Crusader = dead dragons. And fits! Steely resolve Sounds Knightly and the deck needs something from green Waylay Sort of a given
Less likely but also possible. The fact remains we have no hints as to what he is actually thinking or feeling. I would suggest simply moving on from this one. There's no real possible answer to it and all arguments are based on guesses we're just pulling out of our rears.
True, but it does usually need black to be evil. Anybody can do the wrong thing by mistake. The motivation to do it on purpose requires a darker heart.
Then perhaps you should be careful about jumping to conclusions.
You also need to be more consistant. Is your point that white can be evil? Do evil? Or simply be an antagonist? Three seperate answers that each require a different response from me.
I started playing the year Champions of Kamigawa came out. You should probably do some further research into Konda because you jump to conclusions about him aswell. The Novel painted a much clearer picture of him than you might glean from the flavor text of a handfull of cards. Konda wasn't evil, merely a puppet and an antagonist.
Oh so you were on the mtg community forums aswell eh? Liked my phyrexians in white thread?
In any case I also need to get myself a handfull of those paladins...
Hitler is RBW at best.
RED
Hitler was very passionate and emotional in his speeches, also prone to being very impulsive. He encourages the german soldier to use his rage in battle like the berserkers of old. His preferred tactic in battle? Blizkrieg (lightning war) Rush the enemy front. Hit them hard and fast before any real retaliation can be formed. As if he thought his army has haste.
BLACK
Hitler believed the Aryans were decendants of gods kicked out of heaven for being evil. He used anti-semetic feelings in germany to stir up negative feelings against the jews to use them as scapegoats for the German loss in WW1 putting his own people's harships on them. Nazi aggression towards jews was not in response to anything. No threat. No violence. Nothing a white aligned character would see as reason for arresting a person. They just wanted sombody to persecute.
WHITE
I really just added it in to try and comromise. Best reasoning I can give is what MaRo said in the Orzhov article about BW being willing to further their own community at the cost of all others.
Have you even ever looked at black cards? At least if your enemies are white or blue, you can expect that your worst possible end is imprisonment or a clean death.
Want to fight red? I hope your prepared to be Incinerated from the inside out. A horrible fiery death.
Black? Oh thats the worst. Ever pondered Terror? Thats you literally being scared to death. You will feel terror so intense it will kill you. Ripped to pieces by zombies. Tortured. Mutilated. And thats just what happens before you die....
Green is pretty much as brutal as it gets. You'll be crushed by unimaginably immense beasts, Ripped apart by cheetahs, pitten by poisionous snakes, get filled by elven arrows till you look like a porcepine. Maybe eaten by a carnivorous plant.
And blue and white are the horrific ones huh? lol.
Blue may wink you out of existence or perhaps put you to sleep. No, not like a pound may do to a stray animal. literally asleep.. Sounds kinda humane after the other colors.
Now white, you'll be lucky if you only have to worry about pissing white off. Worst case scenario, a White Knight rides you down and impales you on his lance. Maybe a lawfull execution. Thats the worst you'll see.
Regular scenario? Arrest. That's it.
Erwin Rommel! Now there's a true white antagonist.
Rather reign in hell than serve in heaven eh? Condemn your speicies and former friends to horrific ends? A valid choice I suppose. If you get to be a Praetor I get to be an Angel or Sun Titan though...I'm just saying.
Lol'd
Could you post the response of mine you are arguing rather than saying simply "Snip"? Otherwise I have no idea what you're referring to.
The common misconception is that anything involving either Judeo-christian history or government is often attributed to white. So many evils have been committed by governments in history and religions that if all were attributed to white, it would look pretty bad. Most folks who are fans of other colors love to see white in a negative light. easier to justify opposing it I guess. And they also mistakenly percieve goodguy white to be the norm and so being contrary by saying otherwise makes em feel smart.
That's what I have observed anywas.
Amoral people can be pretty stupid. Often they don't give a care about such things simply because they probably won't really adversly affect us till long after this person believes they will be dead. They take what they can and leave the next generation to clean up the mess.
? Amoral people tend to not believe in morality. Often times they are self focused. I don't need everybody in the world to agree with my moral judgements in order to have or act on them.
Agreed.
I've made many statements reguarding this sofar. Everything baisically except their choice of words.
Form. They are horrible aberrations, twisted skinless zombies.
Actions. They roam the countryside gleefully killing and maiming non-phyrexians.
methods. Plagues, murder, and so on.
Raising zombies is slavery of the worst kind. You're murdering a being, then forcing it's conciousness back into the rotting shell to keep locked in servitude as long as it's physical form exists.
I'd have a problem with that if it existed in real life. Most people would.
Don't we all? How would white phyrexians invalidate any real-life beliefs? As much as I like to argue about them, they really are just a card game based on the ideas of sombody in a game company.
You know nothing of my worldview. All you know about me is that I dislike phyrexians in white. And that I play knights alot most likely. That you think you can judge my whole character simply by my opinion on a single part of a single faction in a card game seems somewhat arrogant. As if you think I fit this nice, narrow steriotype wizards has called "White". Are you sure it's me being the close-minded one?
It does sound like somthing they'd do.
I don't ignore the spectrum of possibilities that may apply to each color. I'm fully aware of them. White horrors just seems so...immature I guess. What an unimaginative way to represent white characters being antagonists. It should be more subtle. Not just taking normal black villans and literally painting them white and saying "Look everybody! It's white being a jerk! Are you not entertained?!"
Actually I think white and red groups would be the most likely to fight. Red is reckless and doesn't know the meaning a subtlety. So they would be the most likely to catch the eye of a white group. And being imulsive, red would be the least likely to be willing to sit down and talk it over.
I think two white groups of different religious views would probably be less likely to fight. White unlike most colors tends to like peace. It would be the most likely to start a conflict with words rather than swords which may lead to diplomatic solutions.
I think a fine real world example would be Roman Catholics vs East orthodox christians back in medieval times. They really didn't like eachother but other than the 4th crusade which didn't attack over religious differences, the conflict was pretty much limited to priests traveling back and forth debating with eachother. Which did get ugly sometimes but never resorted to combat as far as I have read.
However, the idea of two white aligned organizations actually fighting is not a new idea. It happened in Odyssey when Captain Piana and Lieutenant Kirtar disagreed about what should be done with the mirari. And it'll surely happen again.
There's plenty of dogmatic or Authoritarian white cards that I am not arguing about. So if you're going by the scientific method, you'd want to eliminate those two ideas from your idea of what my motivations for arguing may be. Because every dogmatic or authoritarian white card I don't disagree with is an inconsistancy with that line of thought.
Simply thinking with a moral focus does not mean you're letting sombody else do your thinking for you. It strikes me that you may be having difficulty seperating morality and religion. And at least here in America, it looks like many of our leaders want us to think selfishly. As long as you think you may somday be wealthy too, you'll not want to rock the boat and call it out when rich folks try to make the government work for them.
Not a bad point. It's true radiant was tainted by phyrexia and went pretty evil as a result yet remained mono-white.
I think the reason I don't have a problem with that is because Radiant is still a regular angel. So she is still physically a creature that embodies white mana while also having the excuse that any evils she committed were the direct result of black corruption.
Konda was decieved. He didn't know what he was doing.
True, but I still feel an amoral worldview is about as short-sighted as they come. Can't see past one's own nose.
Anyways imagine in your scenario is one brick decides it would like to be higher on the wall? It moves to the top. The ones near it say "Oh no way I'm gonna let him climb to the top if I am stuck down here." they move. More think the same thing and move. Pretty soon the fundation is gone and the whole thing collapses.
Amorality is the reason the gulf of Mexico is dying from bp's spill. The reason the polar icecaps are melting. The reason the Amazon is dissapearing. It's self destructive and the world cannot sustain an amoral society forever. Everybody is too focused on taking their share to notice the world is dying around them.
Third book in the Kamigawa series. Konda is leading his warped army in search of his stolen prize when he comes across the Soratami wiping out the Orochi. He immediately diverts much of his army and defeats the soratami saving the orochi in the process.
Infect infecting white. I suppose thats about as good an explanation as we're going to see.
He's kind of huddling on his knees. We don't see his face. I would guess he's somwhat uncomfortable. Probably terrified.
Yeah, morality perverted. That's why I think it fits more in BW.
There are other black religious beliefs to choose from. pick one. Heck, look at the old black phyrexians.
And I suppose you believe yours is so very broad and worldly?
So you're baisically a parasite on the rest of humanity concerned only with your own happiness and how much others can benefit you? I often wonder how folks like that justify their existence. How they can live knowing they have no value. It's a mental state I cannot comprehend.
Because Tivadar's Crusade was a defensive war.
The goblins started it. To put it simply.
Sombody who's name I forgot once said somhing close to this.
"I think the only just war is a defensive one. And righteous in the eyes of god."
I don't believe in his god but I fully agreed with the speaker's meaning. The easiest and most clear-cut thing to justify violence is to prevent death or injury as a result of violence committed by sombody else.
And with that I think I am gong to pass out. Goodknight everybody. I'll try and remember to stop by here agan.
Because if everybody ignored morality altogether, the word would be a horrible place to live in. You couldn't trust anyone. Everybody would be out to screw everybody else over.
Morality is what makes life livable. Both literally and emotionally. You are probably still alive right now because of other people's ideas of what is right and wrong. I didn't wait outside of your house yesterday waiting shoot you and take your money because I believe that would be an evil thing to do. (assuming I could find you)
According to my dictionary:
2. A ruler who exercises power, in a harsh or cruel manner.
3. An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.
Though yeah the first definition baisically says "a person with absolute authority". So going by that, you're correct and that narrow definition can coincide with white.
However, I would still say it is a misleading identification to make for white since the word evokes thoughts more like 2 and 3 of my dictionary.
I agree. I believe phyrexians in this set should all at least be gold cards with black as one of their colors.
I think the paladin looks pretty powerfull. Look at the field of phyrexian corpses he's fighting through.
And look at his face. There's no sense of fear or fatigue. I see only Stalwart determination. As if to say "I've killed a thousand horrors today and I shall kill a thousand more before I'm done."
I hope he's got pro black.
And I thought I would get to bed ontime tonight. I should have never visited the forums. /sigh.
That is an opinion. Your own belief. One actually pretty similar to what black is described as believeing Check this out.
From the article "Lookng out for number one"
I don't even believe in the concept of evil. It relies on the existence of absolute truths which, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever proved the existence of.
The white article on the other hand "Peace, Love and Understanding."
The purpose of life is simple: Do good things. Be a good person. Help those around you. There is a moral path. Follow it.
Just because what is ultimately right and wrong isn't written in stone. doesn't mean it should be ignored completely.
You would also be mistaken if you believed morality cannot be completely secular. Religion is simply a very effective means of enforcing morality, not the source of it.
Reward the Faithful, Congregate, Samite Healer are some of the numerous white cards that can give aid even to opponents and their creatures.
I would also like to point out that in the 3rd Kamigawa book. Konda saved the Orochi from annialation by the Soratami despite their differences and that they had no previous alliance whatsoever.
There are countless instances of white characters helping others in books, mechanics or flavor text.
Path of Peace, Swords to plowshares help both you and your opponent. The other cards I mentioned can all have their abilitis directed towards helping other players if you chose to do so.
How about Captain Piana?
Nagao, bound by Honor? Nagao may fit the description of a zealot but not all zealots are evil. He fought to save the Kitsune and later the wizards of Minamo. He saved alot of people.
How about Serra?
Tivadar of Thornhas some dark cards that bear his name (Tivadar's crusade) But if you actually read about him, he was a hero. He saved the humans and elves of the area from genocide by goblins.
What about Elspeth? Is she tyrannical? Fascist? Zealous? Sofar, no.
Ajani?
Brigid?
Gideon?
Rafiq?
Venser?
Orim of course as you say.
Actually pick out each white character and take a look. The bad ones are a serious minority.
You're thinking of a "Dictator" I suspect. Some dictators are fine. Tyrants really tend to be defined by the cruel or harshness of the methods they use while in their position of authority.
Why would that make me feel more justified? If anything that would make such a belief less justified.
Phyrexians are zombies though. With a few added qualifiers of course. The creaturetyps has been conveiniently left off of the white cards though.
I don't wholly agree with you. But that's probably one of the best arguments I have heard for white phyrexians.
While we don't have any real info yet on their real motivations that I'm aware of and therefore need to go by flavor text of white phyrexian cards, the white phyrexian characters are very orderly. And white likes order.
I don't argue that area. My biggest problem is in their physical forms and methods.
Physically they are baisically a new variety of zombies. (White does't like undead. Undead Slayer)
Method wise, they re pretty much roaming the countryside brutally attacking whoever they find.
They are using plagues and necromancy to corrupt mirran lifeforms and physically and mentally warping them.
I just don't feel one can ignore the black traits that seem rather overwhelming to me simply because a single narrow aspect fits white's color pie.
White subdues but almost never weakens. And infect does tend end in death ya know.
Nowhere does that quote say white has a monopoly on Dogma and being Authoritarian. Nor does it say other colors do not have the same qualities.
It is simply saying that that is the lowest white will sink.
White phyrexians feel so hollow to me. They have pretty white plates. Pretty white words to cover up their back traits. But nothing else. Empty. they lack anything that truly makes somthing white. The white plates covering a normally black zombie are to me both literally and symbolically representative of what wizards has done in this block.
Persecute is black.
Tyrants like say Cabal Patriarch or Sedris, the Traitor Kingare black. The reasoning is that an individual looking out for personal needs who finds themself in a position of authority would be fine opressing the people if it increases his powerbase.
All colors have their idea of how the world should be. here comes the obligatory run down of each color's objectives!
Green believes natural order is right.
Blue believes whatever is most efficient is right.
Red believes that others should not infringe on it's personal liberties. At all.
Black thinks there's no moral compass at all and to think there is one is stupid. It's fully capable and often willing to target those who think otherwise.
White thinks compassion is right. And like others it often ready to punish those who act against that.
I disagree. The essence of white is compassion. White at it's heart lives to help others. All of white's methods; law, healing, protecton, and so on are all given purpose by the need to help others.
Did you just effectively say "There is anything good" and "there never was anything good-" in the same sentence?
Okay I have a few points to make about this opinion. First of all white has Righteousness
First point! Ever looked up the definition of righteousness? Lets see what this big ole dictionary beside me has to say about it shall we?
1. Morally upright; without guilt or sin.
2. In accordance with virtue or morality.
3. Morally justifiable.
Now I could agree with you if the card had quotation marks. like, "Righteousness" implying that it's simply what sombody thinks is right. But there are no quotation marks. This card represents literal righteousness. White is capable of literally gaining power by sheer goodness.
Now I am not saying white is always good, or incapable of evil. But I am saying there's alot of good in white. That much at least cannot be denied.
Now I would also like to point out that good is in the eye of the beholder. Duh, I know. And this beholder (not the D&D monster) sees alot of concepts I consider good in white.
Compassion, honor, chivalry, courage, loyalty, equality.
These are all things I really admire. Other colors have many admirable traits but white has the most important. So your statement there is wrong simply because it's based opinion rather than anything that can be proven. Maybe you do not respect anything any color has ever done but I have seen many things I think are good.
It's true that mechanically, white and black are similar. Flavorwise they are miles apart.
White uses true resurrection. a dead person becomes a living, thinking being again
Black uses necromancy. A dead person becomes a moving corpse.
It's true, every once in a while there's a non-black zombie. But reallistically I think you can safely say that black is the zombie king.
Not if by "converting them" you mean that they are being horribly killed or mutilated and their pieces are reformed into somthing entirely different that likes phyrexia. Lets keep things in perspective here.
It walkes like a black phyrexian, quacks like a black phyrexian, but it's a white phyrexian. Oookay.
Search the gatherer for non-black horrors. Go on don't be shy. See how many there are.
Heirarchy, structure and serving a superior is found in every color. Heck even red, the most anti structure color has structure. Though that isn't exactly what I mean by "minion". But whatever.
My stance there is admittedly more shakey than others, however I would say that when the means is an infectious disease, it's black. Engineered Plague see?
Aww a zombie with loyalty. How touching. Though I have yet to see a white phyrexian declare their purpose being "Order". If you read over the flavor text of all phyrexian cards sofar you'll see nothing of order. mostly just the idea that all other beings need to become phyrexians because being a phyrexians is better. So I'm not sure where this idea that "order is the point of white phyrexians" is coming from.
Though I will also point out that Blue and Black also tend to prefer order.
Order is common in white, black and blue.
Community is common in white, green and red.
Heirarchy is found in all colors.
Structure is an extremely broad thing. All colors have it. Red least of all. But it's there.
Your entire baisis for white phyrexians is still "OMG they have religion! WHITE!"
And infect is like converting so it fits white? That reasoning is stretched so thin I really have difficulty giving it enough credibility to bother arguing it. If your going to strech your logic that much, why don't you just admit you can accept anything in white.
And one awsome paladin. Though I still find myself wondering how a knight living on a world of metal can't fnd the time to get himself a breastplate. Still, now I have somthing to look forward to in the next set.
How about a third option? We're right. Yes, perhaps training your zombies to speak sanctimoniously does change their entire color alignment. I doubt it though.
Zombies are black.
Infect is black. (or green apparently. I don't get that either)
Phyrexians are supposed to be black.
Horrors are black.
Minions are black.
Mass genocide in favor of said zombies is also back.
But apparently if you glue white plates to your zombies and teach them words like "blessing!" and "glory!" all that other stuff can be ignored.
I personally think it's funny. The Zombie is literally wearing a white mask. literally. Not even figuratively. You can even still see the gore. And almost everyone is totally buying it hook line and sinker.
Yes! I have finally found sombody who agrees with me on this. *highfive
I don't think -1 goblin and 2 damage each turn could be considered a "silver bullet"
The dragon deck's purpose is presumably to stall with goblins so you can bring out big dragons. Tivadar by himslf is hardly going to stop it. Not like he'll be able to black a dragon all by himself.
Agreed. Steward may just be a mediocre tap for mana guy who might swing on turn three in most decks but a G/W Knight deck can make some serious use of him.
Knights have plenty of pump abilities in white. I know Crusade was in the Elspeth deck but I sure hope it's also in the knight deck...
I think now that Rafiq is definitelty not in the deck, I would hope to see Tivadar of Thorn printed with the rightfull knight creaturetype.
Here's a few others i'm gonna just throw out:
Sunlance A lance is a Knight's weapon
Crusade Long shot since Elspeth did it, but it fits.
Gallantry + Cloud Crusader = dead dragons. And fits!
Steely resolve Sounds Knightly and the deck needs something from green
Waylay Sort of a given
Just because she served alongside other knights and soldiers doesn't mean she was a member of an order.
That would be awsome.
Four bucks?! All the local card shops that have one still want like thirty for him.
Hmm, guess it's time for a reread.