Well it was new Phyrexia after all. Like most here, I'm not suprised. Just dissapointed.
The flavor text on that black card in a white frame is interesting. Almost confirms my speculation about phyrexians winning in mirrodin and each color faction breaking off to go take over other planes in their own way. Gives wizards a pretty straightforward way to clearly represent the evils of each color and positive sides of it's enemies.
If wizards was to make Mirrodin Pure they would be killing one of there most influential baddies. Look at how many sets were around them before this. Would have been a bad move for Wizards.
The way I see it, the real phyrexians are still dead. This new flavor of them has almost no resemblence to the originals save the name.
I'm a little disappointed they didn't go with something more orginal for a card with such awesome art. I'm also a little ticked that this is yet another white card which could easily pose as a black card.
I thought one of the things seperating black from white mass removal was that white said "destroy" while black got things like mutilate and black sun's zenith. I hope to Karn Yawgmoth that not all of white's cards this set are black cards with a white background
It was expected, but...that doesn't make it any less disappointing. Or utterly predictable. Villains winning is nothing new, it happens quite often in fiction and all the time in real life.
Enjoy your pathetic, writhing, hideous, plague abominations while you can. Someone's gonna tear these Praetors to shreds all too soon. I can see it now...
And that Norn. Ugh, Wizards is way too hung up on this Phyrexian nonsense. Phyrexian language? Really? Praetor is a creature type? Really? That bloody freak has 7 toughness and powers up all your creatures? REALLY? Suddenly, Deathmark seems like a cool card.
As far as I'm concerned, this will be the smallest set ever.
Meh. I don't know when they are gonna fix this mistake. I'd like to see Mirrodin restored, but maybe not as a set, because that would mean someone would have to fight the Phyrexians, meaning more Phyrexian cards. I'm counting on Wizards to let go of their immature infatuation with Phyrexia. Until then...We Will Endure!
Agreed, it's interesting to see white getting more into its religious zealot mode, rewarding the faithful with one hand while smiting those who won't conform to its vision.
Love it....What ever it is/does its just plan bad for the mirrans and there's 72 other devices. Let me ask this how can the mirrans win this fight when such things are around.
Let me guess,next you're going to say:
"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."
BTW, I had just been wondering when I would quote this Master of White's Knights guy. A fan of White (and Knights) as I also am, he seems to be a pretty cool guy. Cool avatar and sig bro.
Thanks. That's nice to hear after all the negativity I got over my opinion on white phyrexians.
Honestly, would it really have killed them to put something like Warrior en-Kor or Order of Leitbur or Order of the White Shield in the Knights deck and more than one Dragonspeaker Shaman in the Dragons? Yes, I know that the two Orders are pro-black and not applicable for being pro-anything in the Dragons deck, but so is White Knight. Hopefully the White Knight will at least be the original art, but I doubt it. At best, it'll be the Legions art for a change.
Am I the only one who is excited to see alaborn cavalier in a new frame?
FIREARMS CONFIRMED FOR M2012
Not a chance. I think Alaborn Cavalier is probably the card I liked seeing the most in the decklists. I would have preferred Alaborn Veteran, but the cavalier is enough for me.
Interesting to see new Silver Knight art. I just wonder why so few Knights in Magic actually wear full helmets. And some of the ones that did, like White Knight and Silver Knight felt like having open helms in their respective new arts. Just a weird little thing that bothers me.
Just be happy you can see their face. The way media goes nowadays, the less unique you are the less powerfull you are. No, really.
If white knight took his helmet off and told you his name, he could probably take on half an army singlehandedly. If he put his helmet back on and then lined up with 20 other knights wearing similar armor, he'd be killed off by the first random goblin that came along.
So I like seeing helmless knights. I means they'll live longer.
Well, at least this knight got nice new looks. KotR is a sad panda right now...
Oh cool, I've been wondering when I'd see the new silver Knight art. Definitely better than the original. Though that isn't saying much. That silver mist around him is pretty slick though I wonder that that thing on his shoulder is? Is that a pauldron? It doesn't match the rest of hi armor. I hope i can manage to get my hands on a playset of those. Wonder what the flavor text says. I really wish I was able to remember more of German class. Al I can make out are a few words. Now if ony I could see the new Loxodon Warhammer art. I hope a knight is holing it instead of some goofy elephant man.
Becoming aware of the decklists I am now instilled with an pretty insistent urge to throw down some games with this Duel Deck set. It looks as though they will be quite the evocative games. The design of the decks all but ensures that players will feel transplanted into some strife-ridden fantasy setting; one where a rapacious winged terror (or two) scourges the realm with a band of brave derring-do-makers staking all to redeem it.
Yeah, the flavor of this one was so great. A shame that the ball was dropped with the decklists.
Someone should tell the worst artist in Magic that it is possible to hold a weapon while your arm is bent. Somehow he does not understand this basic anatomical point.
*sigh The Knight deck doesn't have Waylay or Tivadar.
I hope the artwork for Silver Knight is cool. Can't be worse than the original can it? I am growing very tired of Loxodon Warhammer but maybe it'll have knightly art this time and won't be so bad. Includes some cool knights though.
Well maybe they thought that when you know you are going to be playing against a deck with Knight Exemplar and Kinsbale Cavalier, you'd probably not want to play a Hunted Dragon.
The paladin creaturetype was removed a few years ago though sometime around the Timespiral block. And all the Paladins were folded into the "Knight" creaturetype. I was very happy to hear it. I never liked that cards which buffed Knights wouldn't work on paladins.
Half of the evil female vampires in fiction are more or less like that generic look. I wouldn't say these features are distinctive. I definitely wouldn't jump to a Lillian-ian conclusion just because I perceive a vampire-esque creature in the foreground.
Well the clothes fit. She's got that wierd downward tiara thing of hers and...is that the veil she's holding in her right hand?
Perhaps this is the continuation of the comic we saw in which she ws destroying that town a while back. It's possible the guy in the back is a soldier she killed who is turning into a zombie or somthing.
He really doesn't look like the Baron. His dull grey plate armor hardly looks like somthing Sengir would replace his gold plate and red robes for.
Numerous articles by Maro and others about the color pie philosophy have made it clear that White is concepted as the color of "order and rules" and not the color of "goodness". Of course, there are a lot of people in the world who haven't worked out a moral philosophy that goes deeper than "follow the rules", but as Henry David Thoreau said, "Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?
law and order can be evil, and your moronic for saying that's droll. Ever heard of China, yea a law that has directly lead to babies being left in the street to die, yep that's not evil. Nazi Germany? a law stating that because your different you have be sent to a work camp/die...nope that's fine. Law and Order provides us with safety but they can be taken to the extreme where they instill fear and unrest.
Again, law and order is simply one aspect of white's broad color pie. Laws can be unjust but with a white character at the helm, I think they'd make fair laws.
Goodness me, I wish someone had reported this thread sooner. This argument should have ended about 100 posts ago (with post 213, if you want specifics). Master of White's Knights, whether you are trolling or just stubborn, please stop. Same goes for everyone else.
I'll leave the thread open in the hope that it can be brought back onto a worthwhile topic.
Stubborn I guess. For the record I didn't start ths one. But alright I'm done.
Communism is white, but the Soviet Union wasn't communist, nor was any other 'communist' nation, which is the main flaw with 'communism is an example of evil white' argument.
Thankyou. I'm glad sombody saved me the trouble of pointing that out.
Now, I'm not sure anymore if it ever came up, but why exactly do (some of) you think Phyrexia is evil, in any color? Just because their are the antagonists? Or because their cultural values are so different from your own?
Yeah, I'll go with that. They have some radically different cultural values than I. They're not like you and me, which means they must be evil! We must sound the drums of war!
As a side note, Law and Order are sinister on their own (in white) if they are monitored or enforced in any level, however small or unnoticeable.
Now law and order are evil? How droll. You should be thankfull for law and order. Without laws protecting your rights you probably wouldn't even have a roof over your head. Or a computer to talk on this forum with. Laws provide us with freedom and peace of mind.
Master of White's Knights argues there can be white Phyrexian but is proven wrong by the current block. Hence, Master of White's Knights is wrong and stuborn for refusing to admit it.
Heeey. You invented a false discussion and won it. Good for you.
So you are saying americans and australians are evil by default? Not very nice thing to say I personally would just eradicate all humanity, and let nature run it's course, for humans are like a virus.
Make sure to get yourself first so you don't forget later.
He said his ancestors may have but not him. He addressed that. Guilt lies with the people who committed the crime. You can't get on sombody's case for a crime they weren't alive to commit. That just aint right.
Rommel was very educated and understood how to exploit the situation to his benefit, he was also no fool when it came to expressing his opinion over those who he believed detrimental to his cause. His aggressive military tactics weren't a result of personal aggression but rather his view that he had to keep the momentum going or he'd lose a valuable opportunity. All and all Rommel was a very rational person who often put logic ahead of personal ambition and order. However, there were other times he allowed his belief in authority to cloud his judgement.
As far as his actions go against Hitler, they had NOTHING, to do with what Hitler was doing but rather what the state of the war was. Rommel opposed Hitler and Himmler on a personal basis but he still believed in the power of authority in order. His attempt to negotiate a separate peace had more to do with how he feared the Red Army would deal with Germany after the war and as such he decided to side step Hitler in hopes of finding allies against Russia.
Rommel staunchly opposed the persecution of jews and is quoted in saying so.
During the Afrika campaign Rommel was under orders from Hitler to execute all captured Jewish prisoners or turn them over to the SS. Rommel refused.
He was also ordered to execute all captured allied soldiers he believed to be commandos. He refused that order aswell.
At one point he drove into an allied hospital and took a tour and promised to send medical supplies when he left. As I recall he even followed through on the promise.
So there you have it. He was a soldier, chivalrous, mercifull and compassionate even to enemies while also being a fine tactician. Many of white's good traits. Still fought on the badguy's side.
I think you're a bit delusional, as the big difference between White and Black isn't the intention but rather the target. In other words, both can view things in terms of "the ends justify the means" but Black wishes to benefit the single person while White aims to benefit the whole. In short, Hitler was partially White based on his methods as he wanted to benefit Germany (his people) and not just himself with his horrific action.
Lets not start namecalling over cardgame philosophy.
Intent is the most important topic in the W VS B conflict.
I could accept hitler being somthing like BRW with maybe another B thrown in there for good measure but that's as far as I would go.
Remember the final quote is "God is all things good." As for Isaiah, you can interpret that in many fashions, one of which as in simple physics as in "Every action has an opposite and equal reaction" so by doing good he's unintentional creating evil.
Yeah, god is all things good. According to god. I have an opinion or two on that but I'll save that for some religious philosophy forum.
As for reactions and whatnot, I think the old tesament came long before Newton's laws. God isn't supposed to do anything unintentionally. He's omnivorous!
In fact, the context of that passage doesn't refer simply to "evil" as in ontological evil, but rather to the previously mentioned calamity that is experienced by man. So it's not evil itself, but rather suffering and hardship that is experienced by all. Here's the previous part to show context:
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these,"
Alright, so god is doing good things. But he's also creating Darkness, Calamity and evil. It seems hard to deny that he's got some B in there somwhere.
Humans are greedy. To deny this is deluding yourself. Humans respond to exactly one thing: incentives. Monetary incentives, personal incentives, whatever. To say that a society is "based on greed" is merely saying that a society has accepted Human nature, and has chosen to use it rather than fight it. If a government incentives positive behaviors instead of punishing negative ones, than people will naturally behave in a positive way, because it would be in their own self-interest to do so.
Why fight what we are? Why not use it?
Don't lump all humans in with yourself. We are what we want to be. And we should never just surrender to our baser needs and say "we're greedy! Why try be anything else? We can't fight our nature." The prevalance of ideas like this is only putting our race on a steeper decline.
Do you remember when the Titanic was sinking and the men allowed the women and children onto the life boats? There's no greed there. Just chivalry. I wonder if people could do that today? Or are philosophies like your's becoming so prevalant that the people would simply panic and swamp all the boats trying to save themselves?
Nope. The traits I listed for the White Phyrexians were religious devotion to a cause greater than oneself, upholding the group while suppressing individuality, and seeking to bring others into the fold, whether they want to convert or not. Which one of those are at all Black's domain?
I appreciate you trying to tell me what I was really thinking, but I've got it covered. I can assure you that I'm thinking of White as I and others understand it.
Opressing individuals in the name of one's group is WB's domain according to MaRo. Let me quote one on my favorite articles for these sorts of discussions.
Playing by their own Rules:
To understand the guild's goals, we have to first look at the goals of each of the two colors. White seeks peace. White wants everyone to get along. Black seeks omnipotence. Black wants to have all the power for itself. So how does one have both peace and omnipotence? By being the one that controls the peace. White/Black wants a world without pain and suffering. Although it understands it might need to use pain and suffering to achieve this goal. White/Black believes in tough love. It keeps you safe at the cost of all your liberties. After all, what do you need liberties for if White/Black is taking control of everything for you?
White/Black's greatest strength is its ability to institute order. You might think this would be mono-White's domain, but mono-White has the problem that what is good for the group comes at the expense of individuals. Selling White's vision requires more effort. White/Black, on the other hand, only focuses on a subgroup. As such, it can offer that subgroup things at the expense of everyone not in the subgroup. It's much easier to be sold a package when someone else is doing the suffering.
Get in your last words for whatever insipid slight he last delivered, and block him. Then we can get back to marveling at cool art and actually moving the conversation forward, instead of wallowing in a morass and fighting an inexorable foe.
Thats the spirit. If you can't beat em, insult em! Very mature.
How'd this become a debate about colour pie and World War II figures?
Well! Sombody was talking about how wrong people who dislike white phyrexians are. I decided to try n help them to better understand our point of view.
I'm really not looking to change minds. I'm just hoping the the pro-white phyrexian people can better understand the anti-white phyrexian point of view and accept it as a valid opinion rather than just stupid people who don't know the color pie.
Naturally when I'm arguing why white doesn't fit phyrexians, people always feel the need to start saying "White can be evil! and here's why!" So of course the argument sidetracks into baisic color pie discussion.
And finally there is the Obligatory "Hitler was white!" comment. And thet's where history discussion began. I'm just happy this thread has avoided communism sofar. I get really tired of dabating that over and over it's refreshing not to see it for once.
Ah, but I'm not necessarily talking about slavery from the master's point of view. Followers of white have no qualms "enslaving" themselves to an ideal or some greater purpose.
Now, I know this can be seen as devotion, but I'm specifically drawing parallels of such dedication as slavery since I'm trying to highlight the weakness of White in light of the virtues of another colour.
Plus, I figure that it's appropriate in the "how white acts evil" category.
That's fine if you want to consider loyalty, devotion or fealty forms of slavery. But in doing so, your not changing what white is. Simply modifying the definition of slavery.
Actually, I think Red is the worst fit for Phyrexians. Red is about passion, rage, individuality, and chaos. These are things that are totally lacking in the Phyrexian worldview. Phyrexia is cold, calculating, and willing to wait patiently for decades in the core of Mirrodin waiting for Karn's orders. That's pretty much the opposite of Red.
Also, to be honest, I think White is a better fit for Phyrexians than Green. Survival of the Fittest is certainly a Green philosophy,
I also agree here. Green is a crappy fit for phyrexia. Phyrexians have a serious necromantic theme and also a very mechanical...maybe industrial theme.Both are about as far from green as it gets.
. White's religious devotion, purging of individuality, and desire to spread its way of life at the expense of others fits Phyrexia much better than Green's respect for the natural order, in my opinion.
Hypocrisy my behind. I'm not saying I'll never trust any of your opinions, just your opinions on white aligned villains. I'm not trusting your opinion because you've officially proven you can't be objective in your assessment of any white character. You are like the unreliable narrator in many a story. I hate to say it but there's no point arguing with a zealot. Kind of the epitome of white actually. Oh the irony.
That wouldn't be ironic. That would be fitting. Assuming it's basis was true.
I mean you're implying that other colors are incapable of being stubborn or strongly believing that they are right about something? Hate to break it to you but you are going to find that somwhere in every color.
And there you go again. You'll never trust any of my opinions on white characters. You said it yourself. Just narrowing down what you plan on being zealous about does not make it any more reasonable. This is just the crow calling the raven black.
I'm referring to your general disregard for logical thinking when it does not serve your own ends. When we have a logical arguments, you ignore them completely (rejecting reality and substituting your own, as they say). As soon as we show a slight flaw in our reasoning, however, you're right their with a logical breakdown of how we have erred. You can't have it both ways. Either continue to play the stubborn troll and I can put you on my ignore list, or continue to think logically, which will lead to the conclusion that not only are White Phyrexians wholly acceptable within the context of the game, it is quite flavorful.
Right, so because it's your opinion, it's the only logical conclusion and all opinions contrary to it must be mad ramblings of illogical people. Okay I got ya. Thats fair.
If you think I have overlooked you're point, you're welcomed to restate it more clearly and I will address it to the best of my abilities.
So you think white phyrexians have more dimensions? I mean the only reason people say they fit white is because they sound religious. That's a single narrow dimension if I've ever heard one.
So which single narrow dimension do you prefer?
White characters who do evil for religion?
White characters who do good for....whatever reason. I mean there's so many. Maybe they had family killed by the badguy. Or maybe their family is still alive and they want to protect em. Maybe they fight evil by principle. Maybe it's a sworn duty. Maybe they think it's pointless and the badguy is going to win but they fight on anyways against inevitability. Maybe they were the badguy but after seeing the horrors a person is capable of they turned away and decided to protect people rather than harming them. And thinking back to their evil days only drives them forward to do more good. Maybe it's pragmatism. They see a world of compassion as the most efficient system and intend to create that. Or maybe They have a friend who opposes the badguy and they stand by their friend or take up the quest when their friend dies.
On second thought, I don't see how you think that's one dimensional. It's simply an end goal and says nothing about politics, aquaintances or the source of one's motives. Just in my ramblings off the top of my head I can throw out plenty of dimensions.
Phyrexians on the other hand just have one. Programmed, cold, thought driven by a desire to conquer. Not even really any willpower. What is so 3 dimensional about that?
See, this is too coincidental. Can somebody really so perfectly embody a color philosophy, right down to it's faults. I'm almost positive "Master of White Knights" is just a character he plays, possibly "for the lulz". Or maybe he's into theater, I dunno.
It's easy to devalue a person when you can think of a nice clean steriotype to fit them in huh?
All this talk about W, when are we going to see a noble B society? When are we going to see the pure capitalist meritocracy that shows us the power of B's self-reliance and self-motivation to bring individuals to their finest through pure competition?
I don't think a purely capitalist society can be noble. America is only as good as it is because the corporations are held in check by the constitution. And even that is just slowing them down. A society based on greed always self destructs eventually.
To a certain extent. They have black characteristics that normal humans would define as Black, but might not be seem intrinsically Black to an imaginary culture of Frankenstein's Monsters. Because this imaginary culture would see the process of harvesting fresh corpse parts from a Graveyard to take to the lab in a way more similar to the way we see love (a process meant to create more similar lifeforms).
You excused Poison in Green earlier (was it you?) because you said Poison was natural in plants and insects. But what if poison was natural in humans? Surely then, fighting with poison would be seen as as natural as fighting with your firsts.
They are meant to challenge the definitions of what is Black and what is White/Green/Red/Blue. I don't think Suture Priest should see print in a normal set as Mono White, but Banishment Decree fits in every sense. And this set is New Phyrexia, and we'll have to examine things from a Phyrexian perspective. And from the viewpoint of Phyrexians, I think the Church of Norn is White.
Does Norn even utilize chruches? All I have heard is that it is a being that lives in mirrodin's core.
Keep in mind, this game is created by normal humans. You and I? Probably normal humans. The color pie? Made by normal humans. So if you are going to say "They have characteristics normal humans would define as black." It's okay to just say "they have the characteristics of black." And if a non-human shows up to complain, we'll deal with that when it presents itself. Until that happens we can just avoid getting so focused on political correctness that we are adjusting for beings that don't even exist.
EDIT: Oh, and there is one more interesting thing about the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor settings. The Elves. Elvish society and beliefs were barely changed by the Morningtide, yet their second color switched from Black to White just because of the change in their setting. They went from persecuting everything they found ugly in Lorwyn, to having to protect what little beauty managed to survive in Shadowmoor.
I thought that was interesting aswell. I took it as a direct comparison of the influence of white vs the influence of black when applied to green.
Add black and they become a harsh society that lords over and enslaves lesser creatures, obsessed over personal beauty and willing to ditch anyone who becomes flawed.
Add white and they become stalwart, brave defenders who protect the last remaining examples of beauty they find in the world.
I enjoyed that part.
Though I thought the Lorwin/shadowmoor elven feet were drawn poorly. They were supposed to be hooved like satyrs but they are mostly drawn as if they have normal feet but with only two clawed toes.
Master of White Knights, stretch your mind a bit. I'm not going to continue to try to convince you with logic when you've obviously made up your mind. An entire thread went on for 14 pages and was locked because you wouldn't listen to reason. Considering your reactions on this page I can't trust any of your interpretations about any white villain as being reliable.
So you're saying you will never trust any of my interpretations or opinions and then you're calling me close-minded? Oh the hypocrisy!
And I believe that thread was locked because people stopped caring about the point. Not because of anything I did.
I think White Phyrexians are meant not to be White in the traditional sense. That was pretty well stablished with Suture Priest and Sheoldred's speech for Elesh. They are meant to be White "in context".
They are born in a society where there is no other option besides being a flesh-machine Horror. But given that society, they are the Horrors that care about being pristine.
I agree that Infect doesn't really make sense in White, but from the context (and remember this is a set with focus on flavour, not mechanics) White Phyrexians probably can't really choose to be non-infectious, as the Oil their race spills is infection itself. They are like Birds of Paradise in this sense.
Elesh Norn's speech talks about maiming people. Which isn't very white, but is probably something the Phyrexians like. And she does so to incite "hope" and "unity" in her followers and to give a warning to the Mirrans that don't join Phyrexia, which is white.
Phyrexians are meant to be a very "Alien" culture, one where pain and gore, don't carry the same connotations they do in our society. Comparations with Hitler wouldn't do them justice, because he was still a western person with western beliefs. Even comparations with mesoamerican cultures like the Azteks (who thought being a human sacrifice was a good thing because it released you from "eternal torment") wouldn't do them justice, because the very process of reproduction of Phyrexians is one that requires the death and suffering of other animals and yourself.
So to sum up your belief, Phyrexians are a very Black focused culture so even it's white inhabitants have black physical and mental traits.
Sorta like if they should be multicolored but their creators had an agenda. They wanted phyrexians purely of each color and so they made cards that would by definition be mulitcolored into monocolored cards.
Rommel would probably be UW initially and UWb towards the end. I wouldn't say he's heavily into black in the end but he does try to negotiate a separate peace, despite his "kings" wishes, which was an act of treason, and that's primarily what lead to his execution.
Why do you believe U?
Military tactics are well within white's domain. Rommel was also considered too aggressive by many of his peers. He'd advance his armored units rapidly with the notion that if he never gave his enemies breathing room, they'd never be able to put up a strong resistance. He'd advance beyond his supply lines and too far for rienforcements. I would say he's pure white. But at the very least he's closer to red than blue.
Rommel conspired against hitler because he knew hitler was evil. That's white.
I'm actually finding it fascinating that they're allowing Phyrexian philosophy to be reinterpreted through each color. It shows that the Phyrexians on Mirrodin are becoming more than a genocidal weapon. They are now an actual race with various actual cultures. Sure, they started out as biomechanical monstrosities that shred and reprocess their enemies into upgrades, which is mostly UB, but humans on Earth started out as simple Mono-Green apes. Our societies evolved to be able to express and fulfill the philosophies of the five colors in our own way, and now Wizards is exploring how the Phyrexians can fulfill those philosophies in their own way. Can't wait to build a Mono-White Phyrexian deck!
They're still biomechanical monstrocities. They are simply diverse biomechanical monstrocities now.
Not sure who originally argued that infect doesn't belong in white but I have to disagree. I definitely feel it belongs in white from a Phyrexian religious flavor perspective.
The Infect mechanic is, I believe, intended to resemble Phyresis with the end result being that the "infected" player has been fully transformed into a Phyrexian. From a white mana/religious flavor perspective, infect is like Norn's evangelism. A convert or die (or perhaps in this case convert and die) mentality. I think it really fits. The Norn character is extremely devout in her Phyrexian faith. It seems reasonable she'd aim to convert more to her flock through any means.
I like white in this block. Time and time again, white is represented as a kind of color that strictly adheres to it's own goody-goody nature. I like how WotC has turned the traditional white values of law, order, community from something positive into something sinister. Instead of a well respected churchgoers we have cultish behavior. I appreciate how they've turned the common conception of white magic upside down but still kept it feeling white. Well done.
We've already gone over the misconception that Religion = white.
And I don't understand why people are so opposed to white being "goody goody". If you want somthing more sinister, that's what black is for. If you want somthing you can look to as heroic and noble, that should be white's domain.
There is a reason the game has different colors. Each one serves the purpose of appealing to different people. Of representing different human qualities.
White is the heroic one to put it much more simply than I should. And if that is removed, white loses a large portion of it's purpose in mtg.
If you make white take on black's role, you simply have two blacks. And where is the fun there?
Right now the best I have to look forward to is that there are still good white characters there to kill these white phyrexian jokes. Like this Paladin guy this thread was intended to show off.
All I have to say about white Infect is that while it might or might not be converting the other player or simply making them drop dead, but doesn't anyone remember the Ten Plagues of Egypt. While there were eight plagues that were external, there were two that physically impacted the population, the plague of pestilence and boils, so it's not impossible for white to spread diseases as a method of warning or purification.
A common misconception. Yahweh, the Judeo-christian god simply isn't white. A white aligned character, even one doing the wrong thing, only does what they believe to be right.
in the old tesament god is quoted to have said
"I do good and create evil. I, Yahweh do all these things." Isaiah 45:7
Though if you read more modern bibles, they have changed this passage to somthing less objectionable like "I create woe".
Someone from the mothership mentioned that white has the second highest capacity for evil out of all of the colours (i.e. second to black). I thought it was MaRo, but I haven't been able to pull it out from the site. He does make arguments that white can be evil by itself and even calls Konda into the equation. He also states that any colour can have evil actions completed regardless of starting philosophy.
I'm inclined to think that white can commit amoral acts (sure amoral isn't "evil" per se either) by simply believing such an amoral act to be moral. Utilitarianism is white, obviously can involve causing harm. Deontological actions are white, but can be quite amoral (i.e. if I order you to kill someone, the deontological action is to kill that someone: white but amoral). This is the same arguments that people make about "Lawful = good" and "chaotic = bad". That isn't true at all.
Yeah, folks are getting offtrack here. I was trying to argue that phyrexians don't fit white. Not that white is always good.
Personally I think white should be at least third, probably fourth on the "capable of evil meter."
Black>Red>Blue>White>Green
Black obviously because a majority of evils happen when people put their own needs above the well-being of others.
Red because many crimes are fueled by passion and done on impulse. emotions get to high and people get hurt.
Blue because it is cold and calculating and prone to be motivated by what it can do rather than what it should do.
White should be here I think because it tries to be good. The big danger is that when you put yourself in the position of judge, occasionally you'll make bad calls. And the veteran cop scenario. You see the worst of society and somtimes it gets in your head.
Green gets off easy just because most of it's members are non-sentient. Elves however, can be pretty bad. xenophobic, harsh laws, and their belief in racial superiority.
I definitely think red is far more capable of evil than white. But if you havn't noticed, wizards is very focused on villifying the colors with forethought. Black, Blue, White.
I mean when was the last time a red character was the primary villan in a mtg story? Closest I can think of was Hidetsugu from the Kamigawa block and even he was potrayed in as positive a light as you can potray a demon/chaos worshiping ogre.
White enslaves through the use of the ideology "numbers is power" to the unwashed masses. Praetor Norn merely wishes to have minions who believe in adding their power to the power of the whole--which incidentally is represented by her.
Is she pure white? No.
Is she mostly white? Sure.
As for the earlier discussion of her headpiece, I like it. Assuming it is made of bone, it would be quite heavy and the way that it's curved back, would more or less force her head to be tilted upwards at all times.
She is the perfect exemplar of Phyrexian religion; truth by blindness, prayer through design.
I wouldn't say white is supposed to "enslave" at all. Slavery implies personal gain. I can almost agree with you here though.
The flavor text on that black card in a white frame is interesting. Almost confirms my speculation about phyrexians winning in mirrodin and each color faction breaking off to go take over other planes in their own way. Gives wizards a pretty straightforward way to clearly represent the evils of each color and positive sides of it's enemies.
Yep. a sad day but not unexpected.
The way I see it, the real phyrexians are still dead. This new flavor of them has almost no resemblence to the originals save the name.
Agreed.
I'm with you on this one. It's pretty dumb.
If by "interesting" you mean done to death. Yeah.
Let me guess,next you're going to say:
"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."
Yeah, it definitely gets old.
Thanks. That's nice to hear after all the negativity I got over my opinion on white phyrexians.
Order of Leitbur/white shield would have been cool. /sigh
Not a chance. I think Alaborn Cavalier is probably the card I liked seeing the most in the decklists. I would have preferred Alaborn Veteran, but the cavalier is enough for me.
Just be happy you can see their face. The way media goes nowadays, the less unique you are the less powerfull you are. No, really.
If white knight took his helmet off and told you his name, he could probably take on half an army singlehandedly. If he put his helmet back on and then lined up with 20 other knights wearing similar armor, he'd be killed off by the first random goblin that came along.
So I like seeing helmless knights. I means they'll live longer.
Oh cool, I've been wondering when I'd see the new silver Knight art. Definitely better than the original. Though that isn't saying much. That silver mist around him is pretty slick though I wonder that that thing on his shoulder is? Is that a pauldron? It doesn't match the rest of hi armor. I hope i can manage to get my hands on a playset of those. Wonder what the flavor text says. I really wish I was able to remember more of German class. Al I can make out are a few words. Now if ony I could see the new Loxodon Warhammer art. I hope a knight is holing it instead of some goofy elephant man.
Yeah, the flavor of this one was so great. A shame that the ball was dropped with the decklists.
Lol I noticed this aswell. I think he likes the Naruto style ninja run. Silly as it is.
I hope the artwork for Silver Knight is cool. Can't be worse than the original can it? I am growing very tired of Loxodon Warhammer but maybe it'll have knightly art this time and won't be so bad. Includes some cool knights though.
Well maybe they thought that when you know you are going to be playing against a deck with Knight Exemplar and Kinsbale Cavalier, you'd probably not want to play a Hunted Dragon.
Actually thee were a number of early paladins that had the creaturetype "paladin".
I can think of a couple off the top of my had.
Serra Paladin
Lim-Dul's Paladin
Order of the Sacred Torch
Northern Paladin (Alpha, Beta, Revised, Unlimited, 4th edition)
The paladin creaturetype was removed a few years ago though sometime around the Timespiral block. And all the Paladins were folded into the "Knight" creaturetype. I was very happy to hear it. I never liked that cards which buffed Knights wouldn't work on paladins.
Lets hope so.
Well the clothes fit. She's got that wierd downward tiara thing of hers and...is that the veil she's holding in her right hand?
Perhaps this is the continuation of the comic we saw in which she ws destroying that town a while back. It's possible the guy in the back is a soldier she killed who is turning into a zombie or somthing.
He really doesn't look like the Baron. His dull grey plate armor hardly looks like somthing Sengir would replace his gold plate and red robes for.
Again, law and order is simply one aspect of white's broad color pie. Laws can be unjust but with a white character at the helm, I think they'd make fair laws.
Stubborn I guess. For the record I didn't start ths one. But alright I'm done.
Thankyou. I'm glad sombody saved me the trouble of pointing that out.
Yeah, I'll go with that. They have some radically different cultural values than I. They're not like you and me, which means they must be evil! We must sound the drums of war!
Now law and order are evil? How droll. You should be thankfull for law and order. Without laws protecting your rights you probably wouldn't even have a roof over your head. Or a computer to talk on this forum with. Laws provide us with freedom and peace of mind.
Heeey. You invented a false discussion and won it. Good for you.
Make sure to get yourself first so you don't forget later.
He said his ancestors may have but not him. He addressed that. Guilt lies with the people who committed the crime. You can't get on sombody's case for a crime they weren't alive to commit. That just aint right.
Simply being educated and rational when it comes to military strategy is fully within white's domain. Cenn's Tactician, Master Warcraft, Diversionary Tactics. And plenty more where that came from.
Rommel staunchly opposed the persecution of jews and is quoted in saying so.
During the Afrika campaign Rommel was under orders from Hitler to execute all captured Jewish prisoners or turn them over to the SS. Rommel refused.
He was also ordered to execute all captured allied soldiers he believed to be commandos. He refused that order aswell.
At one point he drove into an allied hospital and took a tour and promised to send medical supplies when he left. As I recall he even followed through on the promise.
So there you have it. He was a soldier, chivalrous, mercifull and compassionate even to enemies while also being a fine tactician. Many of white's good traits. Still fought on the badguy's side.
Lets not start namecalling over cardgame philosophy.
Intent is the most important topic in the W VS B conflict.
I could accept hitler being somthing like BRW with maybe another B thrown in there for good measure but that's as far as I would go.
Yeah, god is all things good. According to god. I have an opinion or two on that but I'll save that for some religious philosophy forum.
As for reactions and whatnot, I think the old tesament came long before Newton's laws. God isn't supposed to do anything unintentionally. He's omnivorous!
Alright, so god is doing good things. But he's also creating Darkness, Calamity and evil. It seems hard to deny that he's got some B in there somwhere.
Don't lump all humans in with yourself. We are what we want to be. And we should never just surrender to our baser needs and say "we're greedy! Why try be anything else? We can't fight our nature." The prevalance of ideas like this is only putting our race on a steeper decline.
Do you remember when the Titanic was sinking and the men allowed the women and children onto the life boats? There's no greed there. Just chivalry. I wonder if people could do that today? Or are philosophies like your's becoming so prevalant that the people would simply panic and swamp all the boats trying to save themselves?
Opressing individuals in the name of one's group is WB's domain according to MaRo. Let me quote one on my favorite articles for these sorts of discussions.
Playing by their own Rules:
To understand the guild's goals, we have to first look at the goals of each of the two colors. White seeks peace. White wants everyone to get along. Black seeks omnipotence. Black wants to have all the power for itself. So how does one have both peace and omnipotence? By being the one that controls the peace. White/Black wants a world without pain and suffering. Although it understands it might need to use pain and suffering to achieve this goal. White/Black believes in tough love. It keeps you safe at the cost of all your liberties. After all, what do you need liberties for if White/Black is taking control of everything for you?
White/Black's greatest strength is its ability to institute order. You might think this would be mono-White's domain, but mono-White has the problem that what is good for the group comes at the expense of individuals. Selling White's vision requires more effort. White/Black, on the other hand, only focuses on a subgroup. As such, it can offer that subgroup things at the expense of everyone not in the subgroup. It's much easier to be sold a package when someone else is doing the suffering.
Thats the spirit. If you can't beat em, insult em! Very mature.
Well! Sombody was talking about how wrong people who dislike white phyrexians are. I decided to try n help them to better understand our point of view.
I'm really not looking to change minds. I'm just hoping the the pro-white phyrexian people can better understand the anti-white phyrexian point of view and accept it as a valid opinion rather than just stupid people who don't know the color pie.
Naturally when I'm arguing why white doesn't fit phyrexians, people always feel the need to start saying "White can be evil! and here's why!" So of course the argument sidetracks into baisic color pie discussion.
And finally there is the Obligatory "Hitler was white!" comment. And thet's where history discussion began. I'm just happy this thread has avoided communism sofar. I get really tired of dabating that over and over it's refreshing not to see it for once.
That's fine if you want to consider loyalty, devotion or fealty forms of slavery. But in doing so, your not changing what white is. Simply modifying the definition of slavery.
Point taken.
I agree. Red doesn't fit Phyrexia at all.
I also agree here. Green is a crappy fit for phyrexia. Phyrexians have a serious necromantic theme and also a very mechanical...maybe industrial theme.Both are about as far from green as it gets.
You're thinking of W/B here.
That wouldn't be ironic. That would be fitting. Assuming it's basis was true.
I mean you're implying that other colors are incapable of being stubborn or strongly believing that they are right about something? Hate to break it to you but you are going to find that somwhere in every color.
And there you go again. You'll never trust any of my opinions on white characters. You said it yourself. Just narrowing down what you plan on being zealous about does not make it any more reasonable. This is just the crow calling the raven black.
Right, so because it's your opinion, it's the only logical conclusion and all opinions contrary to it must be mad ramblings of illogical people. Okay I got ya. Thats fair.
If you think I have overlooked you're point, you're welcomed to restate it more clearly and I will address it to the best of my abilities.
So you think white phyrexians have more dimensions? I mean the only reason people say they fit white is because they sound religious. That's a single narrow dimension if I've ever heard one.
So which single narrow dimension do you prefer?
White characters who do evil for religion?
White characters who do good for....whatever reason. I mean there's so many. Maybe they had family killed by the badguy. Or maybe their family is still alive and they want to protect em. Maybe they fight evil by principle. Maybe it's a sworn duty. Maybe they think it's pointless and the badguy is going to win but they fight on anyways against inevitability. Maybe they were the badguy but after seeing the horrors a person is capable of they turned away and decided to protect people rather than harming them. And thinking back to their evil days only drives them forward to do more good. Maybe it's pragmatism. They see a world of compassion as the most efficient system and intend to create that. Or maybe They have a friend who opposes the badguy and they stand by their friend or take up the quest when their friend dies.
On second thought, I don't see how you think that's one dimensional. It's simply an end goal and says nothing about politics, aquaintances or the source of one's motives. Just in my ramblings off the top of my head I can throw out plenty of dimensions.
Phyrexians on the other hand just have one. Programmed, cold, thought driven by a desire to conquer. Not even really any willpower. What is so 3 dimensional about that?
It's easy to devalue a person when you can think of a nice clean steriotype to fit them in huh?
I don't think a purely capitalist society can be noble. America is only as good as it is because the corporations are held in check by the constitution. And even that is just slowing them down. A society based on greed always self destructs eventually.
Does Norn even utilize chruches? All I have heard is that it is a being that lives in mirrodin's core.
Keep in mind, this game is created by normal humans. You and I? Probably normal humans. The color pie? Made by normal humans. So if you are going to say "They have characteristics normal humans would define as black." It's okay to just say "they have the characteristics of black." And if a non-human shows up to complain, we'll deal with that when it presents itself. Until that happens we can just avoid getting so focused on political correctness that we are adjusting for beings that don't even exist.
I thought that was interesting aswell. I took it as a direct comparison of the influence of white vs the influence of black when applied to green.
Add black and they become a harsh society that lords over and enslaves lesser creatures, obsessed over personal beauty and willing to ditch anyone who becomes flawed.
Add white and they become stalwart, brave defenders who protect the last remaining examples of beauty they find in the world.
I enjoyed that part.
Though I thought the Lorwin/shadowmoor elven feet were drawn poorly. They were supposed to be hooved like satyrs but they are mostly drawn as if they have normal feet but with only two clawed toes.
So you're saying you will never trust any of my interpretations or opinions and then you're calling me close-minded? Oh the hypocrisy!
And I believe that thread was locked because people stopped caring about the point. Not because of anything I did.
So to sum up your belief, Phyrexians are a very Black focused culture so even it's white inhabitants have black physical and mental traits.
Sorta like if they should be multicolored but their creators had an agenda. They wanted phyrexians purely of each color and so they made cards that would by definition be mulitcolored into monocolored cards.
Why do you believe U?
Military tactics are well within white's domain. Rommel was also considered too aggressive by many of his peers. He'd advance his armored units rapidly with the notion that if he never gave his enemies breathing room, they'd never be able to put up a strong resistance. He'd advance beyond his supply lines and too far for rienforcements. I would say he's pure white. But at the very least he's closer to red than blue.
Rommel conspired against hitler because he knew hitler was evil. That's white.
They're still biomechanical monstrocities. They are simply diverse biomechanical monstrocities now.
We've already gone over the misconception that Religion = white.
And I don't understand why people are so opposed to white being "goody goody". If you want somthing more sinister, that's what black is for. If you want somthing you can look to as heroic and noble, that should be white's domain.
There is a reason the game has different colors. Each one serves the purpose of appealing to different people. Of representing different human qualities.
White is the heroic one to put it much more simply than I should. And if that is removed, white loses a large portion of it's purpose in mtg.
If you make white take on black's role, you simply have two blacks. And where is the fun there?
Right now the best I have to look forward to is that there are still good white characters there to kill these white phyrexian jokes. Like this Paladin guy this thread was intended to show off.
A common misconception. Yahweh, the Judeo-christian god simply isn't white. A white aligned character, even one doing the wrong thing, only does what they believe to be right.
in the old tesament god is quoted to have said
"I do good and create evil. I, Yahweh do all these things." Isaiah 45:7
Though if you read more modern bibles, they have changed this passage to somthing less objectionable like "I create woe".
Yeah, folks are getting offtrack here. I was trying to argue that phyrexians don't fit white. Not that white is always good.
Personally I think white should be at least third, probably fourth on the "capable of evil meter."
Black>Red>Blue>White>Green
Black obviously because a majority of evils happen when people put their own needs above the well-being of others.
Red because many crimes are fueled by passion and done on impulse. emotions get to high and people get hurt.
Blue because it is cold and calculating and prone to be motivated by what it can do rather than what it should do.
White should be here I think because it tries to be good. The big danger is that when you put yourself in the position of judge, occasionally you'll make bad calls. And the veteran cop scenario. You see the worst of society and somtimes it gets in your head.
Green gets off easy just because most of it's members are non-sentient. Elves however, can be pretty bad. xenophobic, harsh laws, and their belief in racial superiority.
I definitely think red is far more capable of evil than white. But if you havn't noticed, wizards is very focused on villifying the colors with forethought. Black, Blue, White.
I mean when was the last time a red character was the primary villan in a mtg story? Closest I can think of was Hidetsugu from the Kamigawa block and even he was potrayed in as positive a light as you can potray a demon/chaos worshiping ogre.
That leads to the entire post. It doesn't give me any idea what point you're referring to.
I wouldn't say white is supposed to "enslave" at all. Slavery implies personal gain. I can almost agree with you here though.