the problem was never being stupid and walking into a removal spell with my Frenzy. the problem was knowing they had the removal spell and having a dead Frenzy in my hand, that would have been a game ending Shrapnel Blast if I had been running that card instead.
The frenzy build is really quite dependent on Atog as well, and I really dislike Atog.
atog is there to be abused with fatal frenzy but that doesnt mean you cant target youre 6/2 thopter with it or any other creature, also note that fatal frenzy isnt necesary there to be the game winnig spell, just getting 5 o 6 more damge is ussually enough, even if those damage doesnt end the game right away.
the Atog + Frenzy version is alot more unstable, its really pretty bad imo. You just don't have anything to do about an opponent that can answer your Frenzy with Smother, Putrefy, or any of that stuff (all of which is very commonly played).
I tested it out for a while and was impressed with the explosiveness but in the end I came to the conclusion that Shrapnel Blast does the same job almost as well and is ALOT more stable.
Finally there's the problem of the Doran deck. Doran's ability completely nullifies Fatal Frenzy (as well as Cranial Plating) so its really a bad time to be relying on Frenzy as your finisher since its so awful against the most popular deck.
theversion of frenzy afinity with moxes is more instable, the version of frenzy afinity with out moxes is as stables as any other "traditional"builds, I have played since the deck was T2 leagal, I have played every version(serious versions ofcourse) and I think I have enough expirience to say that frenzy afinity is as stable as any other build. the thing with frenzy affinity is that it can actually win on turn 3 fairly easily and can win ou of unwinable situations thx to fatal frenzy, if you're meta is doran heavy you may want to play the shrapnel blast version of the deck tho.
also, its not like youre stupid and would play frenzy in a bad time, a little practice with the deck can give you a very good idea on when to play the card.
What's this deck's plan against Domain Zoo? You can get an Acolyte, but that takes too much time, and if you try to combo out fast your creatures will just get burned away. I love the idea of this deck and just ordered the cards for it, but I'm a little concerned about the Red Aggro matchups.
the deck can win on turn 2 and more consitently on turn 3, the only real consern about zoo is lightning helix, cabal therapy is you're friend here. if the game goes long you can search for the acolyte if you want or go with the life combo instead of the breakfast one, after SB bring in the 3rd daru spiritualist, ancient grudges and pithing needle.
doran seems a lot better in papaer than In play,, I tested it and It gets killes the turn it comes in to play more often than not and there isnt anything you can cut fot it.
the condem idea is nece too but there is just not enough room for it, althoug in a life deck it could work very well.
I guess It's safe to name this a competitive deck since a number of players made it to day 2 on the last extended pro tour piloting this deck. A lot of us know the deck already since it has been present for long years now, the first versions of breakfast did not play the cephalid illusionist-shuko combo due to the legality of hermit druid, when the druid was banned the deck was no longer played until someone realized that the combo was still viable adding shaman en-kor and cephalid illusionst to the deck and with the shaman in the deck you could aswell add task force and some worthy cause to the deck and have two very powerfull combos in one deck that work very well together.
With the las extened rotation the deck was not viable until future sight came out and gave us acces to narcomoeba,bridge from below and dread return, we no longer have the shaman en-kor but shuko and outrider en-kor can take its place, in the life part of the deck we no longer have task force andworthy cause but daru spiritualist and starlit sactum fill this role in a modern chepald-life deck.
Here is the decklist a number of french players played at valencia:
the main inovation in the french's version of the deck is the adding of all mighty tarmogoyf for either early presure or ghoul food, sicne now it's p/t is not 0/1 when it is in the graveyard. The one thing I could not understand in this version on the deck is the manabase, I dont really know why would you want to play shocklands and fetchs if you can afford the more painful, but flexible and reliabletarnished citadel, you can also play other lands with drawbacks this deck really dont care of.
here is another take on the deck piloted to day 2 on pro tour valencia by David Besso:
this version of the deck does not have the life combo on it and is a lot more control oriented with trinket mage's tool box and even more control elements in the SB, overall I think this is a much weaker and slower version of the deck.
My build is very much like the french build but with and improved mana base and a third cabal therapy, wich I found to be crucial in the control match ups, I had to cut one land for it but thats ok, between lands/moxes/spirit guides I have 25 mana sources.
with the coming extended season just about to start I thought this deck shuold be here in the competitive section, Hope this helps.
yeah, I used to post in the UG faeries thread but some people over there just didnt see it like ug faeries, It was obvious my posts there where making them uncomfortable, they stated I was not playing UG faes and insted I created a regular UG tempo deck, thats why I came here. I guess it all depends on the point of view of each person, if my dekc doesnt fits here aswell jsut le me know
you can alwas equip the scion, bod, venser, the snake, the anysynergy exist, but its very low, plus the scion usually dies the turn is comes onto play of the next turn.
I gave a lot of reasons, if you decide wheter to belive in me or not is not my problem, plus this is not the UG faerie thred, I dont know why you posted about the clique here, as far I as recall it was you who wanted my discusion in the right thred, and your doing exactly what you told me not to do. please keep it on topic here, if you want to discuss clique vs venser or venser vs snake in UG faeries go to the right thread, thank you.
My UG tempo that happens to play some faes but just not the right amount or kind to be acceptd as a ug fae deck:
Maintaining [card= Wizened Cenn]theme in a [card= Lord of Atlantis]tribal block [card= Imperious Perfect]has its [card= Scion of Oona]benefits. You said yourself; 8 of the Faeries are way too good not to run. From that, you can reach the threshold to make Scion worthwhile really quickly; 4 other Faeries other than the Scions themselves, I believe. And if Scion is worthwhile, Clique, arguably the best of the Champion creatures, is most definitely worthwhile. From there, you just have Faeries. Slightly off topic, but I'm still not sure where you're coming from on this, especially if you run neither Spectral Force nor Troll Ascetic.
yes ofcourse having a theme has its benefits, we both agree on that. But I'm not into sticking with a them blindly, I do think that clique is the best chamion out there, but that is no reason to playing right know, I'd rather have benefits from venser, even if that means dont having more benefits with scion of oona. and what I said is exactly that, you dont need to run either of those (troll, force) when you have some 2/1s fliers.
Oh, and vary the cost. If I'm going to make a Planeswalker deck I'm going to need something that drops and lingers longer than Jace, and won't be a chase rare and be unobtainable like Garruk.
Or suck... like Goldmane...
you mean you want something good but cheap? haha In your dreams!!
I wish that morning tide has a good mana leak replacement (I dont really like rune snag)
the counter is ver very VERY good, even with having any wizards in play 3 for a counter+ draw a card? I'm in!! it's extircly betetr than dismiss and is you hapen to have a venser/tefere/other wizard inplay it is extricly better than good old counterspell, I hope this is real.
what are you thoughts with no faeries? I have avoided them in this builds because that belonged to the fae-deck, but you could come up with a nice hibridation...
is it just me or the new colosus is going to revive this builds?
I wouldnt play without th faeries, since a lot of them are very good (pestermite and scryb ranger mainly) scion of oona gives us some extra damages and p`rotects our creatres(most of them anyway) and makes the use of "big" threads like troll ascetic and force unecesary, there fore the fae build seems the most viable to me, altho I'm not afraid of including cards that are not "in-theme" like some people in the UG faeries thread, I think they over protect the theme of thedeck too much, I dont really care about theme decks sine I'm a spike (a total spike) so I'm not afraid of playing anything that can win. and if they feel that thread is not the right place for my deck then there is no reason for posting there. I'm posting my build here today in a few hours.
the colosus seems like a nice SB card if black removal is ver very dominat, plus is interaction with the noob hammer is amazing, but as I said, I think its SB material at best.
Which is why I've suggested a fourth Pestermite instead of a fourth Snake if the Dstorm deck becomes more popular than it is currently; of course tempo is important in situations when you can squeeze it out. Of course, from this, Mystic Snake is a much, much better tempo play in at least 90% of situations than Venser could ever be. Which is my point; the deck should use the tools given to it to best effect. Venser is so unnecessary, and, yes, even bad here that it's ridiculous.
And, not only that, their combo is going to be able to get there regardless of how much tempo you have. What you seem to not understand, from what I can see from your post, is that combo plays the biggest possible beat that can ever be played; the "win the game" beat. That completely overshadows almost every single bit of tempo you can play against them, so you basically just need to stall the deck for long enough to get the points you need to win the game in. Tempo by NO means can ever stop a combo; especially considering how the current Dstorm runs 20 burn spells, it's almost impossible for them not to reach the points your talking about (at which, Snake is still better than Venser), at which minimizing the damage is your only option. Snake does this much better than Venser does. Not to mention, Snake is generally better over all; Clique is good, but extremely risky with their having so much burn and all. Not to mention, the plays you seem to be describing against the new Dstorm seem slightly unrealistic, considering how a competent playing is going to be trying to steal from YOU as much tempo as he or she humanely can. Racing the deck is hard. Especially after Sulfurous Blast and friends from the board. However, this still has nothing to do with Snake vs. Venser; both are too slow to generally maintain tempo, and, at that, Snake STILL does it better than Venser does.
mm ou didnt even bother to take a look at mi list, thats a shmae. I dont really get the whole " snake still wins" thing, I dont know if you even noticed that I play both snake and venser AND the fourth pestermite aswell, I dondt actually care about venser being better or worst than the snake I removed the cliques NOT the snakes to make room for venser. reading is tech, or in this case looking at lists
@masterofpuppets:
I really think resuacion is far mroe eficient than sower irght know, just the fact that it doenst needs counters/scion to protect it makes it better, the other advantage of it is that it can give you card advantage if they kill the creature you took posesion of.
atog is there to be abused with fatal frenzy but that doesnt mean you cant target youre 6/2 thopter with it or any other creature, also note that fatal frenzy isnt necesary there to be the game winnig spell, just getting 5 o 6 more damge is ussually enough, even if those damage doesnt end the game right away.
theversion of frenzy afinity with moxes is more instable, the version of frenzy afinity with out moxes is as stables as any other "traditional"builds, I have played since the deck was T2 leagal, I have played every version(serious versions ofcourse) and I think I have enough expirience to say that frenzy afinity is as stable as any other build. the thing with frenzy affinity is that it can actually win on turn 3 fairly easily and can win ou of unwinable situations thx to fatal frenzy, if you're meta is doran heavy you may want to play the shrapnel blast version of the deck tho.
also, its not like youre stupid and would play frenzy in a bad time, a little practice with the deck can give you a very good idea on when to play the card.
the deck can win on turn 2 and more consitently on turn 3, the only real consern about zoo is lightning helix, cabal therapy is you're friend here. if the game goes long you can search for the acolyte if you want or go with the life combo instead of the breakfast one, after SB bring in the 3rd daru spiritualist, ancient grudges and pithing needle.
the condem idea is nece too but there is just not enough room for it, althoug in a life deck it could work very well.
With the las extened rotation the deck was not viable until future sight came out and gave us acces to narcomoeba,bridge from below and dread return, we no longer have the shaman en-kor but shuko and outrider en-kor can take its place, in the life part of the deck we no longer have task force andworthy cause but daru spiritualist and starlit sactum fill this role in a modern chepald-life deck.
Here is the decklist a number of french players played at valencia:
1 breeding pool
4 city of brass
3 flooded strand
1 gemstone mine
2 hallowed fountain
3 starlit sactum
2 temple garden
3 windswept heat
Creatures:
3 cephalid illusionist
2 daru spiritualist
3 narcomoeba
1 sutured ghoul
1 outrider en-kor
3 simian spirit guide
4 tarmogoyf
4 chrome mox
2 cabal therapy
1 bridge from below
1 dread return
1 dragon breath
4 eladamri's call
4 living wish
4 shuko
3 steelshaper's gift
1 cephalid illusionist
1 crimson acolyte
1 darksteel collosus
2 daru spiritualist
1 gemstone mine
2 harmonic sliver
1 kami of ancient law
1 outrider en-kor
1 ronom unicorn
3 phantom centaur
1 starlit sactum
thomas refsdal explain how the deck work here :http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/ptval07/day2decktech
the main inovation in the french's version of the deck is the adding of all mighty tarmogoyf for either early presure or ghoul food, sicne now it's p/t is not 0/1 when it is in the graveyard. The one thing I could not understand in this version on the deck is the manabase, I dont really know why would you want to play shocklands and fetchs if you can afford the more painful, but flexible and reliabletarnished citadel, you can also play other lands with drawbacks this deck really dont care of.
here is another take on the deck piloted to day 2 on pro tour valencia by David Besso:
2 breeding pool
4 flooded strand
1 forest
1 gemstone mine
1 godless shrine
2 hallowed fountain
1 island
2 temple garden
1 watery grave
3 windswept het
Creatures:
4 chepalid illusionist
1 harmonic sliver
4 narcomoeba
1 outrider en-kor
1 sutured ghoul
4 tarmogoyf
3 trinket mage
4 chrome mox
3 cabal therapy
1 dragon breath
1 dread return
4 eladamri's call
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
1 sensei's diving top
4 shuko
2 steelshaper's gift
1 tormo'ds crypt
2 engineered explosives
1 harmonic sliver
1 kataki, war's wage
2 loxodon hierach
1 mortify
4 threads of disloyalty
1 umezawa's jitte
3 vindicate
this version of the deck does not have the life combo on it and is a lot more control oriented with trinket mage's tool box and even more control elements in the SB, overall I think this is a much weaker and slower version of the deck.
And finally my take on cephalid-life:
3 starlit sactum
1 tendo ice bridge
4 gemstone mines
4 city of brass
3 forbidden orchard
3 tarnished citadel
Creatures:
1 sutured ghoul
1 outrider en-kor
2 daru spiritualist
3 cephalid illusionist
3 narcomoeba
3 simian spirit guide
4 tarmogoyf
1 dragin breath
1 dread return
1 bridge from below
3 cabal therapy
3 steelshaper's gift
4 eladamri's call
4 living wish
4 shuko
4 chrome mox
1 starlit sactum
1 tarnished citadel
1 outrider en-kor
1 chepalid illusionist
1 kami of ancient law
1 harmonic sliver
1 darksteel collosus
2 daru spiritualist
3 pithing needle
3 ancient grudge
My build is very much like the french build but with and improved mana base and a third cabal therapy, wich I found to be crucial in the control match ups, I had to cut one land for it but thats ok, between lands/moxes/spirit guides I have 25 mana sources.
with the coming extended season just about to start I thought this deck shuold be here in the competitive section, Hope this helps.
yeah, I used to post in the UG faeries thread but some people over there just didnt see it like ug faeries, It was obvious my posts there where making them uncomfortable, they stated I was not playing UG faes and insted I created a regular UG tempo deck, thats why I came here. I guess it all depends on the point of view of each person, if my dekc doesnt fits here aswell jsut le me know
you can alwas equip the scion, bod, venser, the snake, the anysynergy exist, but its very low, plus the scion usually dies the turn is comes onto play of the next turn.
I gave a lot of reasons, if you decide wheter to belive in me or not is not my problem, plus this is not the UG faerie thred, I dont know why you posted about the clique here, as far I as recall it was you who wanted my discusion in the right thred, and your doing exactly what you told me not to do. please keep it on topic here, if you want to discuss clique vs venser or venser vs snake in UG faeries go to the right thread, thank you.
My UG tempo that happens to play some faes but just not the right amount or kind to be acceptd as a ug fae deck:
1 pendelhaven
8 forest
6 island
1 treetop village
3 faerie conclave
4 yavimaya coast
Creatures:
4 scion of oona
4 pestermite
4 scryb ranger
4 birds of paradise
4 mystic snake
3 wall of roots
3 spellstutter sprite
2 venser, shaper savant
4 rune snag
3 loxodon warhammer
2 psionic blast
4 flash frezze
2 spectral force
3 pithing needle
3 persuacion
3 time stop
sure, in your tiny little world it is
yes ofcourse having a theme has its benefits, we both agree on that. But I'm not into sticking with a them blindly, I do think that clique is the best chamion out there, but that is no reason to playing right know, I'd rather have benefits from venser, even if that means dont having more benefits with scion of oona. and what I said is exactly that, you dont need to run either of those (troll, force) when you have some 2/1s fliers.
you mean you want something good but cheap? haha In your dreams!!
I wish that morning tide has a good mana leak replacement (I dont really like rune snag)
I wouldnt play without th faeries, since a lot of them are very good (pestermite and scryb ranger mainly) scion of oona gives us some extra damages and p`rotects our creatres(most of them anyway) and makes the use of "big" threads like troll ascetic and force unecesary, there fore the fae build seems the most viable to me, altho I'm not afraid of including cards that are not "in-theme" like some people in the UG faeries thread, I think they over protect the theme of thedeck too much, I dont really care about theme decks sine I'm a spike (a total spike) so I'm not afraid of playing anything that can win. and if they feel that thread is not the right place for my deck then there is no reason for posting there. I'm posting my build here today in a few hours.
the colosus seems like a nice SB card if black removal is ver very dominat, plus is interaction with the noob hammer is amazing, but as I said, I think its SB material at best.
sorry to all, I didnt noticed that thread before, please disregard my posts here, I'm heading to that thread, bye and thx.
mm ou didnt even bother to take a look at mi list, thats a shmae. I dont really get the whole " snake still wins" thing, I dont know if you even noticed that I play both snake and venser AND the fourth pestermite aswell, I dondt actually care about venser being better or worst than the snake I removed the cliques NOT the snakes to make room for venser. reading is tech, or in this case looking at lists
@masterofpuppets:
I really think resuacion is far mroe eficient than sower irght know, just the fact that it doenst needs counters/scion to protect it makes it better, the other advantage of it is that it can give you card advantage if they kill the creature you took posesion of.