I don't understand why anyone would run the Zendikar fetches with only one of the land types they can fetch. Mind explaining it? I've seen it quite a bit, but I just don't get it.
It's for deck thinning. Whether or not it's statistically significant is a different story though.
Has anyone found any good replacements for Slithermuse in the Pact version? It hasn't been good for me but I can't think of anything else for 4-CC (one off-color) that gives me a legit shot at winning that turn.
Honestly, Slithermuse doesn't need a replacement. If you're really insistent I would replace it with 1 IGG, but it seems you already run 2. 2 IGG is waaaay overkill in the pact list. I don't run either Slithermuse or IGG, but instead 4 mana morphose, 1 belcher and 2 tendrils. It is much more balls to the wall, but its also streamlined so that I have no problems building up a lethal tendrils. It's common to run either 1 Slithermuse or 1 IGG in PSI, but definitely not both, nor 1 of each.
EDIT: Also, you are missing Eternal Witness I realized. Big big big big big mistake, witness is the stone cold nuts. Seriously, a PSI list is sub optimal if it's not running witness in its main 60. For reference, my list is -1 tendrils, -1 belcher, -2 IGG, -1 Wild Cantor, -1 Slithermuse, +4 manamorphose, +1 witness, +1 Skyshroud Cutter. Skyshroud cutter isn't the best card around, but it is the best of all the options we have.
I think you mean U/G survival, seeing that survival is green =P. And this thread is hilarious, it's filled with so many misconceptions. I don't see how anyone can make assumptions and bash a format without trying it.
There is an interesting rumor that Library of Alexandria might be unbanned in Legacy..
I believe the power level of the card is strong but it's also demanding and slow (since the card requires the player to have 7 cards in their hand to draw). I've always thought the card was to slow outside of type 1.
I would like to welcome Library to Legacy but I have a gut feeling that the card's reputation my prevent DCI from unbanning it in Legacy, also a few players believe that Wastelands and Rishadan Port may go up in value (since players would be fearing Library) and Library may jump in value (assuming 3 times it going price)... so I'm not actually sure DCI would unban Library since it may distrupt the format based upon the cards reputation.
On the other hand... If DCI does ban survival (which will actually *kill* several decks in legacy and may make many players unhappy) so they may want to throw us Legacy players a bone... And Library would be a nice bone.
Have you ever played Vintage? There is no way the DCI will unban library, its power level is through the roof. A turn 1 unanswered library will win the game 90% of the time, its sheer card advantage is overwhelming. Not to mention the fact that it costs a lot of money, and when everyone will want to put 4 in pretty much every non-aggro deck (I know for sure that I will), they're going to be near impossible to find without selling a vital organ.
They will not unban it in legacy. I'm really surprised it's not restricted in classic too. Library is just stupid good. A turn 1 unanswered library leads to infinite card advantage, anyone who's played with it in Vintage knows this.
No jtms is not a good card it is a broken card , the kind of card that blue inexplicably gets oh so frequently.Cryptic command was another skill testing card and off course teferi and in alpha draw 3 cards for 1 mana while white got prevent 3 damage . Let's not forget a host of free counters , draw and bounce spells. What a skill testing color .
Having to go around the damnable color that's called blue and permission and control requires true skill not counter , counter, draw , wrath , play bomb , game over.
Also i have played blue based permission just never in a tournament , i never wanted to torture my opponents so i never played control in tournaments . Why hate rdw ? God knows wotc hates it enough to print 1 hoser for burn spells and a creature that shuts down it's attacking creatures and gains life !
This is just a silly statement. Yes, blue gets really good cards printed, that doesn't mean it's easy to play with those cards. Anyone who has taken a permission deck to a long (7+ round) tournament knows just how challenging it is to play. Most losses from permission decks are due to misplays, one small misplay can have pretty bad repercussions. If you still think permission is easy to play try taking it to a 7 round tournament and making top 8, it's by no means "counter counter draw counter bomb."
Yes, blue does get some super powerful cards, and I agree it is a powerful color. But if you're saying "blue has powerful cards therefore it's not skill intensive," then you're pretty much saying no other color is skill intensive because they have some bonkers cards too.
Eched Champion? You realize that "protection from all colors" isn't all that strong, right? I'd rather play Knight of Dawn, and that's not a good card, but at least it has first strike, doesn't require I build my deck around it, and has a strong creature type.
Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when? Pro all colors means champion is unblockable, or can chump all day long. Attach some equipment and it's a machine. The common played cards it dies to are Journey to Nowhere and DoJ. Etched champion is bonkers, especially when it goes into legacy affinity and gets a Cranial Plating.
CYOS is crap, long live overextended, the format that will never happen!
CYOS is probably the healthiest format I've ever played. All the broken interactions are fixed because you lose tutors or protection. The most powerful and consistent combo deck is Ichorid, but even that takes 4 turns and is vulnerable to removal and yard hate. So far the best deck I've seen is a teachings deck, but all its games were pretty close.
Honestly, I don't think they're doing another format anytime soon. However, they could, and imho, should, do it as a casual-oriented format, something that people would play to finally use again all the cards they've loved back in the days. A format from Masques onwards would be nice, a format from Masques to T2 formats excluded, even better. They could simply begin to print old decks and old collections again, no money spent on R&D, on artists, just plain production. They would go sold if only they contained playable cards, and they could make those cards playable just by banning all the cards that power creeped old strategies and decks. A format with no Top, tarmogoyf, vial, jitte, maybe bob, vendilion clique, bitterblossom, ad nauseam/tendrils, sulfuric vortex and other cards I'm forgetting right now would be appealing to old and new players: think about psychatog, enduring ideal, death cloud, the old rock, reveillark, UG faeries, ponza, sea zoo, ninjas.. all playable. It would be the dream of any mtg player.
What you describe sounds a lot like Make Your Own Standard. Pick any 2 sets and a core and make a deck, legacy banned list, no ABUR 4th. Play any old decks you like, and no degenerate combo because the pieces are so spread out.
On topic, I hope this new extended thing happens, but starts an Invasion. The last extended season before the first huge change was my favorite format ever.
I'm way confused about the Treespeaker in the SB and the singleton Oracle main.
Treespeaker is for decks that don't run creature removal, like Valakut. It's a Sol Ring, but dies to bolt. I don't know about the Oracle though, probably vs the same decks.
Edit: For example, turn 1 Joraga, turn 2 level, play wall/rampant growth, turn 3 that's 6 mana, enough for Summmoner's Trap or Titan.
Seriously my post-board plan for PSI is extremely good right now. I'd suggest you try it. I've been testing post-board exclusively playing through 1 counterspell and I can win consistently by turn 6 through 1 FoW
Is winning by turn 6 through 1 FoW really that impressive? Don't forget they'll be cantripping for more counters, and beating face with goyf, it's even worse if you've used a draw4 and lost half your life. Also, what's your exact SB plan? What combo pieces do you side out to bring in the anti-blue cards? SI is a very dense deck. Also, although the deck is pretty rogue, it's not very hard to play against. The second a control player sees a Draw4 it will be countered if they have one, +3 card advantage has a huge bullseye on it. In all the tournaments I played in, no one ever countered a ritual, it was always a business spell like a draw4, IGG, belcher, etc.
Quote from Namida »
I'm trying out the list marit posted, because I definitely spent all day getting killed by my pacts. Would playing Kobolds over Phyrexian Walkers be a bad idea? Basically, how many 2x creatures are out there to make Phyrexian Walker effective?
This question is brought up a lot, personally I don't believe Kobolds are a good choice. In all my goldfishing there is rarely a time where one extra R from a chrome mox would really benefit. More common is drawing all my tall men with no rituals, and when I'm at 10 life staring down Kird Ape's, Lavamancers, various goblins etc, a 0/1 kobold seems kinda weak.
however i will say this, the mirror matchup isnt skill based whatsoever. like its very hard to make a mistake too. like the ONLY mistake you can make is keeping a hand that doesnt have ramp in it. thats about it. as much as i LOVE this deck, if this deck gets really popular which im certain it will, im gonna have to change to something else cus whoever is the luckier player will always win and theres no interaction AT ALL. you're just gold fishing for best hands :/.
I agree with this, the mirror blows. It's pure luck based, however there is a Sb card that can help, and helps with other matches too. I play the Spanish T8 list on MODO, and my SB has 4 Oracle of Mul Daya. I bring it in against valakut and the mirror, and it works wonders. The Speed/ramp boost you get from it is pretty bonkers, and it gives you a good step up in the mirror.
I believe the advantage of the pact list is that you can win before they try to disrupt you. How fast is the LG list? Also notice that the list I posted is a hybrid of both. It performs as fast as pact but it is more reliable than pact.
The Land Grant based list is a little slower, but it's barely noticeable. You still have a ridiculously high win percentage (50-60 percent turn 1), but if your draw 4 fizzles you can untap and try again next turn, vs summoner's pact killing you. It's non-dependance on Slithermuse is a benefit too, because although on the play Slithermuse is a draw 7, on the draw it's probably a draw 5 or 6, and going all in on for 5 blind cards doesn't normally end well. I haven't tested your list, it looks a lot like the old Pact lists though first proposed by Breathweapon. If you want a Slithermuse, I'd cut a charbelcher, 2 is unnecessary because tendrils is just more consistent, but one is good as a surprise around hate.
It's for deck thinning. Whether or not it's statistically significant is a different story though.
Honestly, Slithermuse doesn't need a replacement. If you're really insistent I would replace it with 1 IGG, but it seems you already run 2. 2 IGG is waaaay overkill in the pact list. I don't run either Slithermuse or IGG, but instead 4 mana morphose, 1 belcher and 2 tendrils. It is much more balls to the wall, but its also streamlined so that I have no problems building up a lethal tendrils. It's common to run either 1 Slithermuse or 1 IGG in PSI, but definitely not both, nor 1 of each.
EDIT: Also, you are missing Eternal Witness I realized. Big big big big big mistake, witness is the stone cold nuts. Seriously, a PSI list is sub optimal if it's not running witness in its main 60. For reference, my list is -1 tendrils, -1 belcher, -2 IGG, -1 Wild Cantor, -1 Slithermuse, +4 manamorphose, +1 witness, +1 Skyshroud Cutter. Skyshroud cutter isn't the best card around, but it is the best of all the options we have.
I think you mean U/G survival, seeing that survival is green =P. And this thread is hilarious, it's filled with so many misconceptions. I don't see how anyone can make assumptions and bash a format without trying it.
Have you ever played Vintage? There is no way the DCI will unban library, its power level is through the roof. A turn 1 unanswered library will win the game 90% of the time, its sheer card advantage is overwhelming. Not to mention the fact that it costs a lot of money, and when everyone will want to put 4 in pretty much every non-aggro deck (I know for sure that I will), they're going to be near impossible to find without selling a vital organ.
This is just a silly statement. Yes, blue gets really good cards printed, that doesn't mean it's easy to play with those cards. Anyone who has taken a permission deck to a long (7+ round) tournament knows just how challenging it is to play. Most losses from permission decks are due to misplays, one small misplay can have pretty bad repercussions. If you still think permission is easy to play try taking it to a 7 round tournament and making top 8, it's by no means "counter counter draw counter bomb."
Also with your example about Ancestral Recall, magic was first being printed and no one knew how powerful it would be. It's funny you were railing on blue getting bombs and forgetting the other colors, here's a list on non-blue busted cards from the beginning.
Demonic Tutor
Contract from Below (This card is eons past the power level of recall btw)
Wheel of Fortune
Channel
Fastbond
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Balance
That should be enough.
Yes, blue does get some super powerful cards, and I agree it is a powerful color. But if you're saying "blue has powerful cards therefore it's not skill intensive," then you're pretty much saying no other color is skill intensive because they have some bonkers cards too.
Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when? Pro all colors means champion is unblockable, or can chump all day long. Attach some equipment and it's a machine. The common played cards it dies to are Journey to Nowhere and DoJ. Etched champion is bonkers, especially when it goes into legacy affinity and gets a Cranial Plating.
CYOS is probably the healthiest format I've ever played. All the broken interactions are fixed because you lose tutors or protection. The most powerful and consistent combo deck is Ichorid, but even that takes 4 turns and is vulnerable to removal and yard hate. So far the best deck I've seen is a teachings deck, but all its games were pretty close.
What you describe sounds a lot like Make Your Own Standard. Pick any 2 sets and a core and make a deck, legacy banned list, no ABUR 4th. Play any old decks you like, and no degenerate combo because the pieces are so spread out.
On topic, I hope this new extended thing happens, but starts an Invasion. The last extended season before the first huge change was my favorite format ever.
Treespeaker is for decks that don't run creature removal, like Valakut. It's a Sol Ring, but dies to bolt. I don't know about the Oracle though, probably vs the same decks.
Edit: For example, turn 1 Joraga, turn 2 level, play wall/rampant growth, turn 3 that's 6 mana, enough for Summmoner's Trap or Titan.
Is winning by turn 6 through 1 FoW really that impressive? Don't forget they'll be cantripping for more counters, and beating face with goyf, it's even worse if you've used a draw4 and lost half your life. Also, what's your exact SB plan? What combo pieces do you side out to bring in the anti-blue cards? SI is a very dense deck. Also, although the deck is pretty rogue, it's not very hard to play against. The second a control player sees a Draw4 it will be countered if they have one, +3 card advantage has a huge bullseye on it. In all the tournaments I played in, no one ever countered a ritual, it was always a business spell like a draw4, IGG, belcher, etc.
This question is brought up a lot, personally I don't believe Kobolds are a good choice. In all my goldfishing there is rarely a time where one extra R from a chrome mox would really benefit. More common is drawing all my tall men with no rituals, and when I'm at 10 life staring down Kird Ape's, Lavamancers, various goblins etc, a 0/1 kobold seems kinda weak.
I agree with this, the mirror blows. It's pure luck based, however there is a Sb card that can help, and helps with other matches too. I play the Spanish T8 list on MODO, and my SB has 4 Oracle of Mul Daya. I bring it in against valakut and the mirror, and it works wonders. The Speed/ramp boost you get from it is pretty bonkers, and it gives you a good step up in the mirror.
The Land Grant based list is a little slower, but it's barely noticeable. You still have a ridiculously high win percentage (50-60 percent turn 1), but if your draw 4 fizzles you can untap and try again next turn, vs summoner's pact killing you. It's non-dependance on Slithermuse is a benefit too, because although on the play Slithermuse is a draw 7, on the draw it's probably a draw 5 or 6, and going all in on for 5 blind cards doesn't normally end well. I haven't tested your list, it looks a lot like the old Pact lists though first proposed by Breathweapon. If you want a Slithermuse, I'd cut a charbelcher, 2 is unnecessary because tendrils is just more consistent, but one is good as a surprise around hate.