I was under the impression that our biggest issue was still having our engines killed or not finding another one? Just because you mulligan to an engine does not mean it survives. I always play assuming that if I have one engine it will get killed. As far as I can tell, this is one of the few cards spoiled so far that helps with these issues that we don't already have (Unearth is cool, but it does essentially the exact same thing that Claim/Fame does). Again, I don't see how Giver of Runes really helps at all, I think that a one mana counterspell or something like Apostle's Blessing is just better in most cases.
Also, I don't think that our wincon has any issues really if the deck does what it is supposed to do (barring sideboard hate like Leyline), so idk why everyone is trying to make other wincons work that clearly don't really fit our deck.
Time of Need has already existed, and I've tried it. Call seems much better (especially the instant speed), and I think definitely warrants more testing. The manabase will need to be reconfigured. I wonder if protection becomes even more relevant now? Hold up interaction on turn 2, then if nothing EOT call for a paladin and blast off. Definitely worth considering. I'm trying the new Teferi right now, but will be testing Call once horizons is legal on MTGO.
We should definitely consider playing 3-4 of the new Teferi MD. It bounces a creature, cantrips, and prevents them from interfereing with our combo. It also beats chalice and leyline of sanctity. Combine it with our ability to power it out turn 2 with mox opal, and I think it's a winner. An infect list recently went 5-0 playing 3 in the MD, and that's the route I'm going to take.
Odd, I think AA is by far the best build for 4 of the flex spots. AA increases my combo potential drastically. I do agree though that the new one isn’t where we want to be.
I agree that on paper AA looks to be just what this deck is missing. And when I first picked up cheerios, it was a 4 of that I was very happy with. I wound up cutting it, and never missed it. I think there are two main problems with AA. The first is that if it is dropped on turn 1, the jig is likely up, and the opponent will know we are cheerios. This will discourage the opponent from tapping out on their turn 2, which is how we win 80% of our game 1's. It helps to address the problem of our fizzle rate, but I don't see that as a major problem. If we fizzle we have already drawn many cards, and likely found another engine or something else useful. AA does little to help with protecting Sram/paladin, and doesn't prevent us from losing to a lightning bolt or a thoughtseize. If the goal is raw speed though, I think AA is a great choice.
That card is definitely not gonna make the cut. The decks biggest weakness is not being unable to kill the opponent; it is winning without sticking a Sram or Paladin. We also play no removal, so to swing with it would only be good if the opponent's board is empty. A cmc of 2 is also costly, as it competes for an engine spot without actually being an engine. Riddlesmith or the scry bird would be better, but riddlesmith needs [ovalchase daredevil].
I'm testing with three different versions of cheerios right now. They all share the same 53 "core" cards, with the 7 flex spots being changed.
Protection:
4 Swan Song
1 Echoing Truth
1 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Hurkyl's Recall
Black w/ Bob:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
After playing some more on MTGO and looking at the lists that have 5-0'd recently, I've come to several conclusions.
As much as I love serum visions, I don't think it's the right card. It increases our base consistency, but doesn't assist with winning through disruption. Most recent 5-0 lists have dropped them to 2, going up to 4 repeal.
Protection of some sort is required. We need a way to beat a single lightning bolt that doesn't require drawing 2 copies of a card that we run 8 of total in the deck. Cheerios gets a lot of free wins from the opponent tapping out on turn 2 because they don't know we are cheerios. While these are key and will continue to exist, during later rounds of tournaments the jig will be up. I had this problem on day 2 of GP portland when I lost 3 matches vs spirits in a row. Admittedly I got really unlucky with my draws, but they good players were holding up mana for turn 2 spell quellers, and mulliganing to path to exile.
Swan Song is the nuts. I am almost never sad to see it in my hand. In addition to protecting us, being able to snipe an ancient stirrings or a manamorphose is a huge tempo swing that can buy us the 1-2 turns we need to win.
With that said, I'm trying those 3 lists, and will report back. If one of them ends up working really well, I will try streaming another league.
I will post my Matchups and Results and some lessons regarding the current metagame learned in this Event. I wont have time for a full Tournament report but Maybe you guys can Profit a bit from my experiences.
R1/2 Byes
R3: 2-0 UR Phoenix (he went Top8)
R4: 2-0 UR Phoenix
R5: 0-2 Abzan Midrange
R6: 1-2 UR Phoenix
R7: 2-0 Titanshift
R8: 2-1 Titanshift
R9: 0-2 Burn
R10: 2-1 Humans
R11: 2-0 Tron
R12: 0-2 Humans
R13: 2-0 Dredge
R14: 1-2 Burn
R15: 2-0 UR Phoenix
The Maindeck Hurkylls was the best call i could have made. In 3 Matches against Phoenix they surgicaled my Retract when i cast the first one and i was only capable to win these Matches, because i could redraw into a hurkylls one time and the other two times i passed the turn, dropped the 2nd dude and then digged with the returned O´s to find hurkylls for the reset to kill them. As Long as Surgical is Maindeckable we Need to run hurkylls main and a Minimum of 2 noxious. I also blanked one surcical with a noxious and could win this way.
Fragmentize overperformed as an sideboardcard, especially vs Burn. Both Burn-Opponents i faced Day2 had 3-4 copies of cindervines + Eidolon. With that in mind we can no longer board for the old silence + Combo plan but have to go for fragmentize+path+echoing truth.
I won most of my game ones with kills in turns 3-5, because i was Patient enough to wait for them to tap out. If we loose game 1 most matchups are Looking Pretty dire. Humans won vs me with T2 thalias and i dont Think, that repeal is the correct mainboardchoice for this meta. Yes it can be a mini retract, which is nice to have, but Echoing truth deals with hatepieces in a more efficient way and it also hurts decks like Dredge, Affinity or phoenix a lot. It can also be a nice hurkylls/retract Impression, in one game i returned 3 paradise mantles with an E-Truth to then draw 6 Cards from them and win it.
Noxious Revival also overperformed for me, be it countering surgicals, making fetch-onelanders keepable or recurring the engine after they tap out for their first removal when on the Play. With the London Mulligan in Mind i would consider going up to 3 Noxious maindeck, as i expect a rise in decks like grishoalbrand and therefore even more surgicals (+ we can remove grisel to fizzle goryos with NR).
If i had to make any changes at the Moment i would go with -2 Repeal +1 E-Truth +1 Noxious Maindeck. I basically never used the repeals for plain redraws, because we then have to show them which deck we are, so the advantage of a cantrip is gone for this card. Sideboard was okay, with less Control than before we might want -1 Silence and +1 SwanSong/E-Truth/Fragmentize. The Rest was quiete fine. SwanSong never came up as a relevant Card but it felt nice to draw one while going of to Combat any unexepected Thing they might do. I was sceptic beforehands but marit convinced me that it is good and having one in Hand against both my titanshift opponents made me really happy (even though they never shifted ).
Overall a good Tournament with a well Performing deck, that i enjoyed to Play a lot, but neither cash nor glory could be achieved this time, because our bad matchups are really really bad.
I saw that CFP post. I didn't realize it was you. Congrats on the solid performance! I went 9-6 at GP Portland with the deck, so 10-5 is definitely a solid finish. Posting 3-1 vs UR phoenix is also impressive. From my experience, it seems to be a pretty good matchup, so I'm glad to see you have similar results. Def some bad beats, but at least you managed to avoid death shadow. I imagine the azban midrange matchup was a slaughter =[. With humans, the match is all about thalia. If it's answered, we win, otherwise they do.
I've been on 1 echoing truth MD for a bit, suggested by xboxgregory. I've been really happy with it, and think it's a good change. I think you need to add burrenton forge-tender to your sideboard. I play 3 currently, and it is a house vs burn. Drop one early to stall them. Sometimes it can be equipped with a sigil for 2-4, and you just beat down. It additionally acts as an answer to both eidalon and cindervines, while forcing them to draw skull crack or lose.
Good points on noxious. I might bump it up to two again. I've also been considering adding 1 ghurapur aethergrid MD. I'm always happy to draw it post-SB, and it can act as a half-decent engine. Swan song is great. I agree that it's not always used, but I feel so much more secure having one in my hand. Overall, your performance was great. Cheeri0s requires nerves of steel to pilot at large events due to how swingy and polarizing it is. Day 2 isn't easy to make (you were the only cheerios player), so once again, great job!
On a side-note, MTGO will be testing the london mulligan for a month, starting April 10. I will be sure to stream a few leagues of cheerios during that time, and will keep this thread updated with those times and dates. My list will be slightly modified, running 4 repeal main, to deal with all the eldrazi stompy decks that I'm sure will be running around.
I was going to suggest exactly this. This deck is mostly optimized, since there are really only ~8 flex spots. Daze would be incredible for us. Free protection and disruption. With some tweaking, we may even be able to play force of will (although I am sure they will not reprint it). Last I checked, ~16 cards was the threshold for force (including force itself), which we might be able to do.
I second pretty much everything else you mentioned. We are a 1 card combo deck vulnerable to removal and discard, in a format with plenty of hate that attacks us on multiple axis already. I don't think it can really get worse for us, so I am optimistic for this new set!
Hey Marit, nice content, i like it Took some notes while i started watching it, just for discussion, not to blame or talk you down on any of your ingame decisions.
Match1-Game1:
You go for a 2nd Boy and fizzle with grapeshot in hand with stormcount = 20 Should have just killed instead of deploying a 2nd engine. Most of the time 2nd engine is correct but here you can just kill safely.
Game2:
Interesting Decision not to Counter the First Looting. I think i would have gone for it, as it stocks his GY with phoenix and gives him an filter for excess lands (he looked flooded) for 1 mana. could have bought 1-2 turns i think.
Game 3:
I like the spot where you stop to combo with a potential redraw 4 if both boys survive and a 2 draw if they have 1 answer. The following turn where you partly fizzle i think Sram should have attacked for 2 (still 3 mana up after attck, 2/4 dudes = save). Sometimes the Small steps matter. I also like keeping up noxious vs decks that can bring in surgical to fizzle it
Match 2 - Game 1:
Good assesment of the situation, nice reasoning of possible removals. Another argument for going for it: if you draw grapeshot from your deck you can kill them with the stuff you have in hand after he dismembers himself down to 9 life
Game 2:
When you are dead on board with him on 7 im a big fan of not showing the aethergrid, just to conceal information from the opponent. When you cant win a spot, even if the opponent misplays then just concede, except if you intend to board the grids out and make him worry about them.
Game 3: Flawless vitory.
Match3 - Game1:
That first hand is really close imho. One of the main problems with the deck is hitting the lands and i would be inclined to keep it. If it was a postboard game it think its always a keep, game1 when you aim for the fastest goldfish kill it might be okay to mull for a better hand. Lately i got more conservative with my Game1 hands. When you keep the first hand you basically get 1 draw, 3x serum visions (draw+look) and then another draw which is a probability of 57.4% to hit it according to this hypergeometric calculator: https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
The reasoning to go for it on turn 3 is perfectly on point, especially since affinity runs only 2-3 galblast since they went for frenzies and the situation can only get better, as you end up in the same spot you are now if he has it, so nothing is lost and you have 1 more handcard aswell.
Game 2:
When discarding in the Endstep i always Discard the Fetches except when i have to dig for a special shockland in the Deck, because we only have 6 fetchtargets in total. I dont think it was a problem here but its good to keep in mind, that we are limited on lands. I once lost a match cuz i discarded my sacred foundry and then couldnt fetch it, they stony silenced and i couldnt win cuz i was locked for red as my guy was summoning sick and mantle couldnt fix the mana. Was really sad.
In the spot where he concedes some thoughts on how i would have played that spot. Draw as many cards from 0´s as possible. If we then can deploy grid with 5 activations go for the grid but keep hurkylls open to nuke em from the orbit. We have 5 mana with paladin mantle and therefore it is unloosable with boardcontrol i think. Might be a slow but a safe finsish
Match 4 - Game1:
Not much to do here. One card that helped me a lot vs the Blackbased Decks is Paradoxical outcome. If they have mostly disruption for our plan postboard but no fast clock it enables an EOT Draw4-7 with the O´s run out and then you can get the Grapeshot to kill them from the hand with the returned pieces + the redraws. Sometimes you hit double engine. Might be worth a try for you, i found the 1-off outcome to be really good.
Game 2: Just shadow things.
Match 5 - Game1:
So ez.
Game 2:
I like boarding in Hurkyls for their Map or for a potential chalice on 0 or Engineered Explosives.
When you have both Paladins on board and hit land with the first redraw with 2 more cheerios i think i would have gone for the Sram from the hallowed fountain + mantle mana to redraw 6 from the reamining 2 0´s because we have to win that turn otherwise the o-stone wrecks us next turn. This way we have to hit mox/retract from 6 draws + 3 draws for each following O´s. Your line started with 2 more redraws until you hit the 3rd paladin and then go for the same Route. With that line we have to hit atleast retract from 4 draws + 2 draws for following O´s. Didnt do the math here but i think going for 6 + 3 per O is a better chance than 4 + 2 per O.
Instead of digging for another opal you could have noxioused the used one back on top to speed things up
Overall:
Nice Job, tight play, some good points for discussion. Keep those streams up, so we can all improve by discussing your plays and oppinions, its a great benefit for all of us artifact-stormers!
Thanks for the great feedback. I agree with many of your points. I want to rewatch my games later, keeping your notes next to me so I can really understand them. Paradoxical outcome is a really good idea. Maybe I will try 2-3 in the side. There have been so many leagues I 4-1'd because I ran into GDS. I don't think I'll be able to stream for a little, but ideally I plan to stream once per week, likely on the weekends. When I manage to rerrange my schedule to fit in a weekly stream I'll definitely keep the thread updated.
Hey Marit, nice content, i like it Took some notes while i started watching it, just for discussion, not to blame or talk you down on any of your ingame decisions.
Match1-Game1:
You go for a 2nd Boy and fizzle with grapeshot in hand with stormcount = 20 Should have just killed instead of deploying a 2nd engine. Most of the time 2nd engine is correct but here you can just kill safely.
Game2:
Interesting Decision not to Counter the First Looting. I think i would have gone for it, as it stocks his GY with phoenix and gives him an filter for excess lands (he looked flooded) for 1 mana. could have bought 1-2 turns i think.
Game 3:
I like the spot where you stop to combo with a potential redraw 4 if both boys survive and a 2 draw if they have 1 answer. The following turn where you partly fizzle i think Sram should have attacked for 2 (still 3 mana up after attck, 2/4 dudes = save). Sometimes the Small steps matter. I also like keeping up noxious vs decks that can bring in surgical to fizzle it
Thank you for the feedback! You'r not talking down at all. It's hard to reflect on a game without someone else's thoughts. Game 1 you have a great point. I missed lethal on the board, and will be sure to keep watch for it. I was pretty nervous since I just started streaming, and I distinctly remember having trouble thinking things through (at least in the first games). Second game is interesting, I hadn't considered hitting the looting. I just figured I would draw a land and swan song would be better for protection, especially since the hand had most of what was needed to win. I might try to be more aggressive with swan songs and see what happens. I did miss that attack in game 3, and need to keep it in mind. Every point of damage helps, especially since this deck is so random. Thanks again for the feedback! I hope to do a few more leagues, but it will be infrequently. I'll be sure to post here ahead of time though, so people who might be interested in watching will have notice.
Gonna give this thread a small bump. I just 4-1'd a competative league on MTGO, and streamed it. I meant to announce it here, but forgot to. I saved the replay, it's available here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/392018407.
R1: 2-1 vs UR Phoenix
R2: 2-1 vs Death Shadow Zoo
R3: 2-0 vs Affinity
R4: 0-2 vs Grixis Death Shadow
R5: 2-0 vs Mono G Tron
This was my first time streaming, so I forgot to turn the sound down on MTGO. Hope it is still entertaining to watch. I'm happy to answer any questions about decisions that anyone has.
Edit: Here's my current decklist, and the one I streamed with:
Hello everyone. RPTQ in December went 1-4 drop (3x Spirits 2x Hollow1, discarding my dudes at random).
After Skewer was released i returned to my roots and playerd some solid burn but after seeing the metagame breakdown for LA im 80% back on the Cheeri0s train for GP Bilbao in 2 weeks. I will attach my current Decklist and my SB-Cheatsheet for discussion, as i got very valubale input from you guys the last time
Cages are a concession to Dredge, Phoenix and Coco/Elves. Had Forgetenders or Fragmentizes in that flexslot but prefer some GY Lockdown that buys us turns to go off.
Mainboard i dont know if the repeals are really necessary with the decline of Humans/Spirits and other Decks with MB taxes, so i cut 1 for a 1-off hurkylls as it has some value vs Affinity and Hardened scales.
I would value your opinions and Input on the cheatsheet, any Matchups im missing, which are relevant at the moment?
Lets make Sram Senior again!
Glad to hear it! I've also picked up cheerios again after switching to Red splash Eldrazi Serum Stompy for a bit. I've been having much better luck with it on MTGO. A few thoughts on your list:
The MD looks pretty standard. My current MD (without protction) is -1 NR -1 Repeal +1 SV +1 ET. I've really come to like echoing truth in the main as a 1 of, since it's a way to answer any tricky permanent, and an easy out to leyline of sanctity (which has saved me multiple times from the boggles decks running around online). As for the side, I don't like grafdigger's cage. I see the reasoning behind it, but I think it's superfluous. Our dredge matchup is fine, since we race them anyways G1 and are faster. G2 their only card to worry about is thoughtseize. With regards to phoenix, once again I don't think that cage addresses the true problems. Phoenix wins by bolting our dudes and flipping TiTi early. Cage only helps if they have a double phoenix nut-draw, which will win through cage anyways 90% of the time. I think forge-tenders or more path to exile would be better suited, as burn is still a large part of the meta, and PTE is great at dealing with random hate-creatures.
I'm glad to see the hurkyl's recall. It pushes the hardened scales matchup even more in our favor, and has saved me multiple times as the fifth retract. I also prefer a second aether grid, and have considered bumping it up to 3. In the matchups where it shines, it really shines. Something else I've been considering is Swan Song over silence. They essentially serve the same purpose, but Swan Song will hit discard and Eidalon. In theory silence is better vs phoenix though, as it can stop multiple removal spells if you play it on your turn before you drop your engine. Otherwise, SB looks similar and solid as it did last time.
The new mulligan sounds too strong for combo decks and Tron to be implemented, is my guess. It gives those deck a significant boost in power and consistency, and it seems unlikely to me that it's going to be used.
Would be amazing for Cheeri0s though, I completely agree
It sounds good on paper, and I am super interested to see what happens. We are easy to disrupt though, where it's very hard to fight through a combination of two discard or removal spells. We will find our engines more often, but a good opponent will more often have the bolt/thoughtseize. I've been playing with 3 swansong MD and they have been great. I think if the new mulligan rule sticks, it will be even more beneficial to play protection. If they are not needed in the matchup (like tron), you can bottom them with the new mulligan rule, but keep them in the interactive matchups. I hope MTGO implements the new rules. I am super curious to test if it will be as degenerate as it seems on first glance.
You cut serum visions a lot. I personally would never cut one in any matchup. They help us find sideboard cards or our engines. I'd trim more equipment before trimming SV.
I think you have a good point. I've long been considering cutting more equipment, but always been a little chicken. For the foreseeable future I'll try cutting more equipment first and seeing how that works. The meta on MTGO is becoming less hostile, so I plan to start jamming some leagues again next week. I'm working on getting a good setup so I can record some leagues and post them to this thread for feedback.
Instead of SV we also could use Incubation // Incongruity to find an engine. has anyone thought about it? it digs a bit deeper and also only requires blue.
It's crossed my mind several times, but I don't think it;'s worth it. We play only 8 engines, so 5 cards deep will often whiff. Plus, SV is so great because it helps to find lands, which incubation does not. for incubation to work, I think the deck would need to take a different turn and play more creatures such as monestary mentor and maybe the scry bird, which would dilute the overall combo.
UW control / Jeskai
+3 Silence
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
G tron / Valakut
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
Prison
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
+3 Silence
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-3 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
Hardened Scales
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song/Noxious Revival
Affinity
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Infect / Boggles
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
Some things you can see I haven't decided on 100%. I am also still unsold on the swan songs, but will leave them in for now. I think swansong will win a lot more games than SV will, especially since our #1 weakness is bolt and thoughtseize.
CMC of 2 means it will be harder on the manabase to bait an engine for removal/counter and then revive
The black splash has bitten me a few times. And I am really really interested in adding Geist to the SB, as it really shores up removal heavy matchups (especially after sticking a shield on it). I do think the 2cmc will be relevant often, but I am still going to test it.
On another note, I've added 3 Swan Song MD, cutting 1 SV and 2 Repeal, running 15 land again. I've been really impressed with it so far, but also MTGO has been infested with burn decks of late. And I mean really infested. Last league I played in I faced 5 different burn pilots, and wound up 3-2 mostly on the back of swan song. We thwomp non-interactive decks regardless, so I haven't noticed cutting the SV or repeals much. Especially with the rise of UR phoenix decks, waiting until turn 3 to drop a Sram with Swansong protection has shifted that matchup to favorable.
I also think Swan Song helps with the #1 problem of this deck, which is that it's much stronger game 1 when the opponent doesn;t know what you're doing. When they are not under pressure and choose to tap out on turn 2/3 even if they have removal in hand, it generates free wins for us. If we manage to get to the high tables later in a big tournament, everyone will know our deck, and we lose that advantage. Swan Song helps to retain the advantage by punishing them for holding up mana. So far I've been really happy with it, but will keep testing, and post my findings.
Time of Need has already existed, and I've tried it. Call seems much better (especially the instant speed), and I think definitely warrants more testing. The manabase will need to be reconfigured. I wonder if protection becomes even more relevant now? Hold up interaction on turn 2, then if nothing EOT call for a paladin and blast off. Definitely worth considering. I'm trying the new Teferi right now, but will be testing Call once horizons is legal on MTGO.
I agree that on paper AA looks to be just what this deck is missing. And when I first picked up cheerios, it was a 4 of that I was very happy with. I wound up cutting it, and never missed it. I think there are two main problems with AA. The first is that if it is dropped on turn 1, the jig is likely up, and the opponent will know we are cheerios. This will discourage the opponent from tapping out on their turn 2, which is how we win 80% of our game 1's. It helps to address the problem of our fizzle rate, but I don't see that as a major problem. If we fizzle we have already drawn many cards, and likely found another engine or something else useful. AA does little to help with protecting Sram/paladin, and doesn't prevent us from losing to a lightning bolt or a thoughtseize. If the goal is raw speed though, I think AA is a great choice.
That card is definitely not gonna make the cut. The decks biggest weakness is not being unable to kill the opponent; it is winning without sticking a Sram or Paladin. We also play no removal, so to swing with it would only be good if the opponent's board is empty. A cmc of 2 is also costly, as it competes for an engine spot without actually being an engine. Riddlesmith or the scry bird would be better, but riddlesmith needs [ovalchase daredevil].
I'm testing with three different versions of cheerios right now. They all share the same 53 "core" cards, with the 7 flex spots being changed.
Protection:
4 Swan Song
1 Echoing Truth
1 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Hurkyl's Recall
Black w/ Bob:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
All-in clunky:
4 Riddlesmith
3 Ovalchase Daredevil
After playing some more on MTGO and looking at the lists that have 5-0'd recently, I've come to several conclusions.
With that said, I'm trying those 3 lists, and will report back. If one of them ends up working really well, I will try streaming another league.
I saw that CFP post. I didn't realize it was you. Congrats on the solid performance! I went 9-6 at GP Portland with the deck, so 10-5 is definitely a solid finish. Posting 3-1 vs UR phoenix is also impressive. From my experience, it seems to be a pretty good matchup, so I'm glad to see you have similar results. Def some bad beats, but at least you managed to avoid death shadow. I imagine the azban midrange matchup was a slaughter =[. With humans, the match is all about thalia. If it's answered, we win, otherwise they do.
I've been on 1 echoing truth MD for a bit, suggested by xboxgregory. I've been really happy with it, and think it's a good change. I think you need to add burrenton forge-tender to your sideboard. I play 3 currently, and it is a house vs burn. Drop one early to stall them. Sometimes it can be equipped with a sigil for 2-4, and you just beat down. It additionally acts as an answer to both eidalon and cindervines, while forcing them to draw skull crack or lose.
Good points on noxious. I might bump it up to two again. I've also been considering adding 1 ghurapur aethergrid MD. I'm always happy to draw it post-SB, and it can act as a half-decent engine. Swan song is great. I agree that it's not always used, but I feel so much more secure having one in my hand. Overall, your performance was great. Cheeri0s requires nerves of steel to pilot at large events due to how swingy and polarizing it is. Day 2 isn't easy to make (you were the only cheerios player), so once again, great job!
On a side-note, MTGO will be testing the london mulligan for a month, starting April 10. I will be sure to stream a few leagues of cheerios during that time, and will keep this thread updated with those times and dates. My list will be slightly modified, running 4 repeal main, to deal with all the eldrazi stompy decks that I'm sure will be running around.
I was going to suggest exactly this. This deck is mostly optimized, since there are really only ~8 flex spots. Daze would be incredible for us. Free protection and disruption. With some tweaking, we may even be able to play force of will (although I am sure they will not reprint it). Last I checked, ~16 cards was the threshold for force (including force itself), which we might be able to do.
I second pretty much everything else you mentioned. We are a 1 card combo deck vulnerable to removal and discard, in a format with plenty of hate that attacks us on multiple axis already. I don't think it can really get worse for us, so I am optimistic for this new set!
Edit:
Thanks for the great feedback. I agree with many of your points. I want to rewatch my games later, keeping your notes next to me so I can really understand them. Paradoxical outcome is a really good idea. Maybe I will try 2-3 in the side. There have been so many leagues I 4-1'd because I ran into GDS. I don't think I'll be able to stream for a little, but ideally I plan to stream once per week, likely on the weekends. When I manage to rerrange my schedule to fit in a weekly stream I'll definitely keep the thread updated.
Thank you for the feedback! You'r not talking down at all. It's hard to reflect on a game without someone else's thoughts. Game 1 you have a great point. I missed lethal on the board, and will be sure to keep watch for it. I was pretty nervous since I just started streaming, and I distinctly remember having trouble thinking things through (at least in the first games). Second game is interesting, I hadn't considered hitting the looting. I just figured I would draw a land and swan song would be better for protection, especially since the hand had most of what was needed to win. I might try to be more aggressive with swan songs and see what happens. I did miss that attack in game 3, and need to keep it in mind. Every point of damage helps, especially since this deck is so random. Thanks again for the feedback! I hope to do a few more leagues, but it will be infrequently. I'll be sure to post here ahead of time though, so people who might be interested in watching will have notice.
R1: 2-1 vs UR Phoenix
R2: 2-1 vs Death Shadow Zoo
R3: 2-0 vs Affinity
R4: 0-2 vs Grixis Death Shadow
R5: 2-0 vs Mono G Tron
This was my first time streaming, so I forgot to turn the sound down on MTGO. Hope it is still entertaining to watch. I'm happy to answer any questions about decisions that anyone has.
Edit: Here's my current decklist, and the one I streamed with:
4 Cathar's Shield
1 Echoing Truth
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Grapeshot
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Mox Opal
1 Noxious Revival
4 Paradise Mantle
2 Plains
4 Puresteel Paladin
1 Repeal
4 Retract
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Seachrome Coast
4 Serum Visions
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Windswept Heath
3 Claim // Fame
1 Echoing Truth
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
3 Path to Exile
3 Swan Song
Glad to hear it! I've also picked up cheerios again after switching to Red splash Eldrazi Serum Stompy for a bit. I've been having much better luck with it on MTGO. A few thoughts on your list:
The MD looks pretty standard. My current MD (without protction) is -1 NR -1 Repeal +1 SV +1 ET. I've really come to like echoing truth in the main as a 1 of, since it's a way to answer any tricky permanent, and an easy out to leyline of sanctity (which has saved me multiple times from the boggles decks running around online). As for the side, I don't like grafdigger's cage. I see the reasoning behind it, but I think it's superfluous. Our dredge matchup is fine, since we race them anyways G1 and are faster. G2 their only card to worry about is thoughtseize. With regards to phoenix, once again I don't think that cage addresses the true problems. Phoenix wins by bolting our dudes and flipping TiTi early. Cage only helps if they have a double phoenix nut-draw, which will win through cage anyways 90% of the time. I think forge-tenders or more path to exile would be better suited, as burn is still a large part of the meta, and PTE is great at dealing with random hate-creatures.
I'm glad to see the hurkyl's recall. It pushes the hardened scales matchup even more in our favor, and has saved me multiple times as the fifth retract. I also prefer a second aether grid, and have considered bumping it up to 3. In the matchups where it shines, it really shines. Something else I've been considering is Swan Song over silence. They essentially serve the same purpose, but Swan Song will hit discard and Eidalon. In theory silence is better vs phoenix though, as it can stop multiple removal spells if you play it on your turn before you drop your engine. Otherwise, SB looks similar and solid as it did last time.
It sounds good on paper, and I am super interested to see what happens. We are easy to disrupt though, where it's very hard to fight through a combination of two discard or removal spells. We will find our engines more often, but a good opponent will more often have the bolt/thoughtseize. I've been playing with 3 swansong MD and they have been great. I think if the new mulligan rule sticks, it will be even more beneficial to play protection. If they are not needed in the matchup (like tron), you can bottom them with the new mulligan rule, but keep them in the interactive matchups. I hope MTGO implements the new rules. I am super curious to test if it will be as degenerate as it seems on first glance.
I think you have a good point. I've long been considering cutting more equipment, but always been a little chicken. For the foreseeable future I'll try cutting more equipment first and seeing how that works. The meta on MTGO is becoming less hostile, so I plan to start jamming some leagues again next week. I'm working on getting a good setup so I can record some leagues and post them to this thread for feedback.
It's crossed my mind several times, but I don't think it;'s worth it. We play only 8 engines, so 5 cards deep will often whiff. Plus, SV is so great because it helps to find lands, which incubation does not. for incubation to work, I think the deck would need to take a different turn and play more creatures such as monestary mentor and maybe the scry bird, which would dilute the overall combo.
Phoenix
+3 Silence
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
GDS /Jund / Rock / JDS
+2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
+3 Claim/Fame
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
Burn
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Paradise Mantle
Dredge
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
Spirits
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Swan Song/Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Humans
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
-3 Swan Song
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Amulet Titan
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song/Noxious Revival
Storm
+2 Echoing Truth
+3 Silence
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Noxious Revival
-1 Paradise Mantle
UW control / Jeskai
+3 Silence
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
G tron / Valakut
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
Prison
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
+3 Silence
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-3 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
Hardened Scales
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song/Noxious Revival
Affinity
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Infect / Boggles
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
Some things you can see I haven't decided on 100%. I am also still unsold on the swan songs, but will leave them in for now. I think swansong will win a lot more games than SV will, especially since our #1 weakness is bolt and thoughtseize.
I'm on 3 SV as of now. Here's my most recent list:
4 Cathar's Shield
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Grapeshot
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Mox Opal
1 Noxious Revival
4 Paradise Mantle
2 Plains
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Retract
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Serum Visions
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
3 Swan Song
4 Windswept Heath
3 Claim/Fame
2 Echoing Truth
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
3 Path to Exile
3 Silence
And what is Invisible? Invisible Stalker?
https://discord.gg/FPNkpJh
I don't think the list will change much with the new set. The only change I would consider is revival/revenge over claim/fame.
Pros of Revival over Claim
Cons of Revival over Claim
The black splash has bitten me a few times. And I am really really interested in adding Geist to the SB, as it really shores up removal heavy matchups (especially after sticking a shield on it). I do think the 2cmc will be relevant often, but I am still going to test it.
On another note, I've added 3 Swan Song MD, cutting 1 SV and 2 Repeal, running 15 land again. I've been really impressed with it so far, but also MTGO has been infested with burn decks of late. And I mean really infested. Last league I played in I faced 5 different burn pilots, and wound up 3-2 mostly on the back of swan song. We thwomp non-interactive decks regardless, so I haven't noticed cutting the SV or repeals much. Especially with the rise of UR phoenix decks, waiting until turn 3 to drop a Sram with Swansong protection has shifted that matchup to favorable.
I also think Swan Song helps with the #1 problem of this deck, which is that it's much stronger game 1 when the opponent doesn;t know what you're doing. When they are not under pressure and choose to tap out on turn 2/3 even if they have removal in hand, it generates free wins for us. If we manage to get to the high tables later in a big tournament, everyone will know our deck, and we lose that advantage. Swan Song helps to retain the advantage by punishing them for holding up mana. So far I've been really happy with it, but will keep testing, and post my findings.