Infect decks can be quite fierce if you include a decent smattering of Proliferate. It's easy to run Contagion Engine as a targetable semi-board wipe, and it's pretty easy to activate it reliably almost every turn if you want. Inexorable Tide might look like jank, but the popularity of Doubling Season attests to how useful more counters on permanents can be. Suddenly, one hit by any infector is a death sentence, and all you can do is watch as your opponent kills you one counter at a time, with nothing you can do about it. Even if you find an answer to the Engine or Tide, you're still a Steady Progress away from just randomly losing whenever infect.dec says it's your time.
Infect decks at their most effective are like the dedicated Land Destruction decks of Time Spiral-era Standard, the ones that made WotC rethink Land Destruction. They take away a player's ability to interact with them, and force the player to simply watch themselves lose.
My playgroup has tossed around the idea of raising the poison count limit to 21, to mirror the general damage rule. This idea should turn Skittles from "powerhouse" to "solid beater", but we haven't made it official and we haven't had a dedicated infect deck in our group for a while, so I can't comment on how well it works.
Tidewater Minion, actually. Originally to get extra uses out of my Grindclock and whatnot, it finds other uses at times.
As for random milling off the top, I agree that statistically, it's a wash-- you're equally likely to help an opponent as to hurt them. That said, in any single game of Magic, each Tome Scour isn't going to hurt them as much as help them, it's going to hurt or help them a fixed amount. The odds only balance out over a long period of games, not in each individual game.
Let's say your opponent needs Card X to dig himself out of the stalemate. He's trying to draw it (and he'll win if he does), while you're trying to mill it (and he'll scoop if you do). Statistically, it could be anywhere in his deck. Let's say that you're activating a Millstone and a Merfolk Mesmerist every turn, while he's activating a Bonded Fetch every turn. He's drawing a total of two cards, and you're drawing a total of four. Statistically, you're twice as likely to hit Card X as he is. Aren't you?
Of course, this is a contrived situation. It relies on the board state being stalemated-- and since milling doesn't contribute to board state and you're spending resources milling, your opponent is likely to pull ahead. It also relies on your opponent needing a certain card in his deck-- if, say, he's running a mindless aggression deck and all of his nonland cards are attacking creatures, he likely won't care what he draws.
There may be circumstances under which milling helps your position, but they're few enough and far between enough that you're better off spending your mana on things that further your victory condition.
I attempted a Szadek mill deck, and it basically flopped. In multiplayer I could never mill enough. The only way I ever came close is if I could get Szadek up to 20/20 or bigger, but somebody always found an answer for him and then it's back to Square One.
Geth, on the other hand, gives my table fits, simply because attacking the Geth player just results in him pulling a chump blocker out of your own graveyard. The cards he mills is an irrelevant rider.
Basically, mill cards are like life gain cards-- in order to be good, they need to A) do something else in addition to milling, or B) be a repeatable effect with little or no continues investment. Glimspe the Unthinkable and Nourish aren't worth much, but Memory Erosion and Soul's Attendant are pretty good simply due to the sheer amount of times their abilities can trigger over the course of a game.
Since he doesn't cast the spells, and the original will still be on the stack and not in the graveyard: No.
I think he meant Riku would copy your spells more easily than Pyromancer Ascension would, so forget the Ascension and run Riku.
Does casting an instant out of your graveyard with the Volute even trigger Pyromancer Ascension? I would think the Volute would move the card from the graveyard to the stack before the Ascension's ability triggers. If Volute works, then wouldn't Flashback work just as well too?
Felidar Sovereign has everybody in my group scrambling for an answer pretty quick. Similarly, Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant always gives me that feeling of dread. Asceticism as well, for similar reasons as Rune-Tail... having all your options for killing that guy's creatures is a pretty hopeless scenario.
As for generals, Sharuum the Hegemon and Sen Triplets are pretty feared, though the Triplets less so lately as they haven't won much recently. Most of the folks in my playgroup are pretty afraid of Geth, Lord of the Vault as well.
Before I go on a rant about how bad I think this strategy is, can anyone tell me what the usual kill condition for this type of strategy is ?
Large evasive creatures, usually. This is basically a multiplayer-specific control variant, where instead of gaining inevitability through advantageous trades, you gain it through persuading your opponent to spend their resources grinding each other down and leaving you alone. Once they're all out of gas and you're not, you can basically win at your leisure.
Somebody already said Norn's Annex, but I'm surprised nobody said Stuffy Doll. Granted, Stuffy is really only a deterrent against one player, and to everybody else he's "attack me if you want to attack him but he has better blockers". And even against that player, Stuffy is more like "don't attack me until you find a kill spell".
My biggest disappointment here is that Army of the Damned counts the number of Zombies in play. If it were a Tribal Enchantment - Zombie, it would count itself. MaRo said that there weren't enough situations where being Tribal would've mattered, because too many abilities that care about creature types specifically say they only work for creatures. But why not just say they work on all things with that type? Just make sure Army of the Damned doesn't have the word "creatures" right after "Zombie", and it would totally be worth the complexity creep, because its having the Zombie subtype would ALWAYS be relevant when it's in play!
Okay, yes, it wouldn't matter as much in most other cases (I can't think of any noncreature card in INS that would benefit from being a Tribal - Werewolf) but still, I think closing the book on Tribal was a mistake. I'm fine with it being something that only gets used once every four or five blocks, but for MaRo to "declare it dead" feels a bit shortsighted. It's a tool in Magic's toolbox. Choosing not to use it is fine, but giving up on EVER using it?
If you're better at math than your opponent, you might try and create these complex states on purpose to find an advantage over your opponent. An opponent who's struggling with the math is more likely to make play mistakes. If you're worse, play control and pack plenty of sweepers.
I don't usually find myself in board states that I can't calculate, but I do occasionally have to correct my opponent's combat math. Maybe I'm just that good? I really never thought about it much before now.
If Pyromancer Ascension decks were likely to hit metalcraft, I'd be all over Molten Psyche and I suspect that most other people would too. Like somebody already mentioned, copying Molten Psyche is basically the win right there.
Would they even allow artifact destruction in this block, as it pertains to Standard?
I guess I'm just considering Liquimetal Coating's awesomeness.
I'm also not a fan of blinking since I don't understand what's "white" about it, but that's just my view on their twisting of the color pie.
I also don't think destroying an artifact will be the red ability. If we're expected to believe that the Sword will be Mirran, it won't destroy artifacts because destroying artifacts is one of Phyrexia's best tricks against the Mirrans. But seriously, nobody thinks it'll be "sacrifice a permanent"?
Blinking is white because Flicker, the first card to do it, was white. I think it makes sense for white. White gets to exile things, it gets a lot of "temporary" removal, and it gets ways to protect its creatures by diverting harm. Blinking makes more sense as white when it can be done at will, at instant speed, so it feels more like the creature is "dodging" whatever's coming at it.
Here's a possible red ability I haven't seen suggested yet-- Misguided Rage. Red hasn't really done any of this lately, but then neither has any other color unless you count Annihilator, so I'm assuming it's still considered a red ability.
For white, the only thing I can think of is putting +1/+1 counters on creatures, but I know it won't do that because SoM block has -1/-1 counters, and WOTC has said they won't use both kinds in one block. Maybe it'll untap creatures, a la To Arms!?
It would be pretty easy to synergize with SoM's Proliferate just by having permanents that want lots of counters on them. Planeswalkers are the obvious choice, but any given set doesn't want too many of them. I'd say a +1/+1 counter theme is all but guaranteed, even if it's not a major theme-- they're a type of counter that's easy to put on a creature and get better the more you have. We may also get the return of storage lands like Calciform Pools.
Metalcraft will be harder to coordinate without making a whole 'nother artifact block. Maybe there'll be a tribe of clockwork creatures like Shadowmoor's Scarecrows, to keep motivation to play artifacts high, or maybe there'll be some cards that make Thopter tokens?
Battle Cry is the Mirran ability most likely to get played off. All you need is to encourage swarming and weenie strategies. Maybe a few token producers?
I wish there were more of them, then. Also with better flavor, preferably. "Spirit of the Night" doesn't even sound like something there's only one of. Something more along the lines of Kuro, Pitlord.
As for already-existing generals I'd build around given infinite resources, here are my choices:
1. Reaper King-- Not entirely sure what goes into a Reaper King deck, beyond of course one of every Scarecrow. Wouldn't mind finding out though.
2. Sek'kuar, Deathkeeper-- I feel like Sek'kuar would make a good general for a Goblin deck that uses all the Goblins from Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block. Wort, Boggart Auntie and the sack/recur themes of Lorwyn's Boggarts certainly agree with Sek'kuar, and having access to green shores up black and red's weaknesses (enchantments, creature pump, mana fixing)
3. Rakdos the Defiler-- I feel a little bad that I picked three tribal decks, but Rakdos is tribal on a technicality alone. Still, getting to hit people with Curse of the Cabalalong with my general damage and actually making the Ogre/Demon theme from Kamigawa work for me is just too cool an idea to pass up.
I have acess to just about whatever general I want. I want what doent exist yet.
1. A 5 color spirit legend.
2. A mono white or a black/white knight legend
3. A fat red general with protection from red
This is what I thought this thread was actually about when I clicked. I agree-- the generals I really want don't exist yet.
1. A three-color "wedge" general, like Intet or Vorosh, that plays more towards the strengths of all three of its colors
2. A (colorless) legendary artifact creature that plays to a different deck style than Karn. Maybe one that encourages you to throw lots of Equipment on it, or one with a tap ability like that of Kuldotha Forgemaster.
3. An Akroma-like creature in black or blue (or UB). Just a 6/6 or bigger, loaded up high with keyword abilities like flying, trample, shroud, indestructible, etc. The perfect win condition for a control deck, and the perfect avatar of destruction to cast from the general zone and beat face with.
Infect decks at their most effective are like the dedicated Land Destruction decks of Time Spiral-era Standard, the ones that made WotC rethink Land Destruction. They take away a player's ability to interact with them, and force the player to simply watch themselves lose.
My playgroup has tossed around the idea of raising the poison count limit to 21, to mirror the general damage rule. This idea should turn Skittles from "powerhouse" to "solid beater", but we haven't made it official and we haven't had a dedicated infect deck in our group for a while, so I can't comment on how well it works.
Tidewater Minion, actually. Originally to get extra uses out of my Grindclock and whatnot, it finds other uses at times.
As for random milling off the top, I agree that statistically, it's a wash-- you're equally likely to help an opponent as to hurt them. That said, in any single game of Magic, each Tome Scour isn't going to hurt them as much as help them, it's going to hurt or help them a fixed amount. The odds only balance out over a long period of games, not in each individual game.
Let's say your opponent needs Card X to dig himself out of the stalemate. He's trying to draw it (and he'll win if he does), while you're trying to mill it (and he'll scoop if you do). Statistically, it could be anywhere in his deck. Let's say that you're activating a Millstone and a Merfolk Mesmerist every turn, while he's activating a Bonded Fetch every turn. He's drawing a total of two cards, and you're drawing a total of four. Statistically, you're twice as likely to hit Card X as he is. Aren't you?
Of course, this is a contrived situation. It relies on the board state being stalemated-- and since milling doesn't contribute to board state and you're spending resources milling, your opponent is likely to pull ahead. It also relies on your opponent needing a certain card in his deck-- if, say, he's running a mindless aggression deck and all of his nonland cards are attacking creatures, he likely won't care what he draws.
There may be circumstances under which milling helps your position, but they're few enough and far between enough that you're better off spending your mana on things that further your victory condition.
Geth, on the other hand, gives my table fits, simply because attacking the Geth player just results in him pulling a chump blocker out of your own graveyard. The cards he mills is an irrelevant rider.
Basically, mill cards are like life gain cards-- in order to be good, they need to A) do something else in addition to milling, or B) be a repeatable effect with little or no continues investment. Glimspe the Unthinkable and Nourish aren't worth much, but Memory Erosion and Soul's Attendant are pretty good simply due to the sheer amount of times their abilities can trigger over the course of a game.
I think he meant Riku would copy your spells more easily than Pyromancer Ascension would, so forget the Ascension and run Riku.
Does casting an instant out of your graveyard with the Volute even trigger Pyromancer Ascension? I would think the Volute would move the card from the graveyard to the stack before the Ascension's ability triggers. If Volute works, then wouldn't Flashback work just as well too?
You could also use Azusa or Molimo as your backup general, depending on what kind fo game you want to play.
As for generals, Sharuum the Hegemon and Sen Triplets are pretty feared, though the Triplets less so lately as they haven't won much recently. Most of the folks in my playgroup are pretty afraid of Geth, Lord of the Vault as well.
Large evasive creatures, usually. This is basically a multiplayer-specific control variant, where instead of gaining inevitability through advantageous trades, you gain it through persuading your opponent to spend their resources grinding each other down and leaving you alone. Once they're all out of gas and you're not, you can basically win at your leisure.
Somebody already said Norn's Annex, but I'm surprised nobody said Stuffy Doll. Granted, Stuffy is really only a deterrent against one player, and to everybody else he's "attack me if you want to attack him but he has better blockers". And even against that player, Stuffy is more like "don't attack me until you find a kill spell".
Okay, yes, it wouldn't matter as much in most other cases (I can't think of any noncreature card in INS that would benefit from being a Tribal - Werewolf) but still, I think closing the book on Tribal was a mistake. I'm fine with it being something that only gets used once every four or five blocks, but for MaRo to "declare it dead" feels a bit shortsighted. It's a tool in Magic's toolbox. Choosing not to use it is fine, but giving up on EVER using it?
I don't usually find myself in board states that I can't calculate, but I do occasionally have to correct my opponent's combat math. Maybe I'm just that good? I really never thought about it much before now.
Cerebral Eruption might be sideboard tech against Oracle of Mul Daya? Though in most cases I'd rather have Chain Reaction.
I also don't think destroying an artifact will be the red ability. If we're expected to believe that the Sword will be Mirran, it won't destroy artifacts because destroying artifacts is one of Phyrexia's best tricks against the Mirrans. But seriously, nobody thinks it'll be "sacrifice a permanent"?
Blinking is white because Flicker, the first card to do it, was white. I think it makes sense for white. White gets to exile things, it gets a lot of "temporary" removal, and it gets ways to protect its creatures by diverting harm. Blinking makes more sense as white when it can be done at will, at instant speed, so it feels more like the creature is "dodging" whatever's coming at it.
For white, the only thing I can think of is putting +1/+1 counters on creatures, but I know it won't do that because SoM block has -1/-1 counters, and WOTC has said they won't use both kinds in one block. Maybe it'll untap creatures, a la To Arms!?
Metalcraft will be harder to coordinate without making a whole 'nother artifact block. Maybe there'll be a tribe of clockwork creatures like Shadowmoor's Scarecrows, to keep motivation to play artifacts high, or maybe there'll be some cards that make Thopter tokens?
Battle Cry is the Mirran ability most likely to get played off. All you need is to encourage swarming and weenie strategies. Maybe a few token producers?
I wish there were more of them, then. Also with better flavor, preferably. "Spirit of the Night" doesn't even sound like something there's only one of. Something more along the lines of Kuro, Pitlord.
As for already-existing generals I'd build around given infinite resources, here are my choices:
1. Reaper King-- Not entirely sure what goes into a Reaper King deck, beyond of course one of every Scarecrow. Wouldn't mind finding out though.
2. Sek'kuar, Deathkeeper-- I feel like Sek'kuar would make a good general for a Goblin deck that uses all the Goblins from Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block. Wort, Boggart Auntie and the sack/recur themes of Lorwyn's Boggarts certainly agree with Sek'kuar, and having access to green shores up black and red's weaknesses (enchantments, creature pump, mana fixing)
3. Rakdos the Defiler-- I feel a little bad that I picked three tribal decks, but Rakdos is tribal on a technicality alone. Still, getting to hit people with Curse of the Cabalalong with my general damage and actually making the Ogre/Demon theme from Kamigawa work for me is just too cool an idea to pass up.
This is what I thought this thread was actually about when I clicked. I agree-- the generals I really want don't exist yet.
1. A three-color "wedge" general, like Intet or Vorosh, that plays more towards the strengths of all three of its colors
2. A (colorless) legendary artifact creature that plays to a different deck style than Karn. Maybe one that encourages you to throw lots of Equipment on it, or one with a tap ability like that of Kuldotha Forgemaster.
3. An Akroma-like creature in black or blue (or UB). Just a 6/6 or bigger, loaded up high with keyword abilities like flying, trample, shroud, indestructible, etc. The perfect win condition for a control deck, and the perfect avatar of destruction to cast from the general zone and beat face with.