Poor Jaya got the wrong end of the stick with her tainted glass artwork. Her face is a big miss. It looks like a meme photoshop or something, with a glued stupid face on an otherwise fine artwork.
I just wanted to say that I've been playing that list that performed well recently in my LGS on Wednesday and... I've been disappointed. This version of the deck has a glaring weakness : it doesn't play any catch all like Oblivion Ring or Cast Out, and I really missed them. I lost 2 games (and thus a match 1-2) to a Liliana the Last Hope I simply couldn't possibly handle. I lost 1 other game to a Scavenging Ooze while I couldn't draw a path or a wrath. And I won a match against an artifact deck that wasn't playing Ensnaring Bridge for a reason. If he had it would have been nigh impossible to get more than a Draw.
I think I'll modify a few things to play these catch all that I feel are necessary in this deck.
I was however pleased by Avacyn (first time trying her), satisfied by Hallowed Burial against Hollow One, and ok with the manabase. The 4 Fields of Ruin 4 ghost quarters feels good
Congrats on your result ! How did you "recur" Ballistas, though ? Just using Mistveil Plains + Dusk / Dawn ? How did you find Dusk // Dawn by the way ? I'm afraid this is a dead card against most of the format, really. Just looking at your matchups, it doesn't feel optimal against Humans, Hatebears, and even Mardu Pyromancer as well.
Let's not talk about privileges and stuff, because as much as I like Magic Aids' gameplay videos I feel like we're not at all on the same political page. He went through an embarrassing meltdown from my point of view, but at least it's over ^^'
Like you I feel the deck is still looking for ITS finisher because none fits perfectly. The angels are good but kinda slow and fragile to counterspells. Keranos/Kefnet are interesting but require a splash. Assemble the Legion and Luminarch Ascension are a nombo with Solemnity.
I'm not sure about Hazoret either, since it's got no evasion it'll take a looooong time killing your opponent by pinging him 2 damage each turn.
Asking for a turn 4 kill is a little ambitious, but yeah killing by turn 8-10 would already be better than what happens some times with the deck ^^
Adding planeswalkers is an idea but PW : 1/ Are not protected by Leyline of Sanctity 2/ Are not protected by Ghostly Prison and 3/ Suffer from Suppression Field. I'm not sure they'd survive long.
Personnally I'll stick to the Entreat the Angels + Sigil plan game 1 and bring Luminarch Ascensions (+ Obliterate if I go the WR route) against control if necessary.
I suppose the best land to cast an Obliterate while still providing white mana when needed would be Rugged Prairie ? Drmarkb, maybe you can share your WR manabase with us (or possibly your whole list) =)
By the way, content creator Magic Aids posted a video playing a Jeskai version of Pillow Fort.
It makes for a very funny video, and blue enables a lot of drawing plus a funny kill with Keranos. I'm not convinced at all it is better than non blue versions, but it fared pretty well on camera ^^
Played pillow fort last week. The deck still feels good. I had a hard time against the new UR wizards, mostly because I didn't know the deck. One game I wanted to land a ghostly prison : it got remanded - remanded - remanded - snapremanded. Sure... Of course I never had a Leyline in starting hand to make things spicy ^^
I must say I'm pretty glad I swapped Grand Abolisher for Defense Grid though. They basically don't remove anything that's on board, so a turn 2 Grid is a very efficient way to protect oneself. And it doesn't die to bolt.
I was also caught of guard by a Mardu Nahiri deck. The damn Nahiri is strong against us, and for a long part of the game I was sure I was just playing against a weird mardu pyromancer list. :X
I had to utterly crush a RB Hollow One deck though. Loved it.
It was the first time I playtested a single Arch of Orazca in the main, and despite the nombo with Suppression field it drew me a few cards so that made it way better than a "normal" land in the slot.
Edit : I really like your sideboard plan, Sandmanness. I'll pilfer it I think. I always refrained to play Luminarch because of Solemnity but I guess against control it is actually viable. The only thing I don't like are the two Abolishers but it's just because I like to blank my opponent's removal spells. I have three grids right now but I should go to 4.
How is the Flagstones/Ghost quarter plan working out for you ?
Count me part of the unconvinced crowd. Impressive win, congrats to the originality, but Sarkhan... just doesn't seem that good. The deck looks super clunky. It's maybe a few pieces away to be really slick though.
The only thing I could see myself do with my regular Skred deck : maybe let go of the 4x Relics 2x Scourge main deck like he did. I mean... it's a slight edge against control, but are the slots really worth it ? I'm less and less sure. That's 10% of the deck we can free.
Thank you Flossed Beaver. Also your last phrase made me chuckle x)
I do like the take on Vampiric Tutor myself. It's obvious he's a vampire from Ixalan, and since the beginning I've been a real fan of the Legion of Dusk vampire style. This pale figure, the groomed mustache, the pale eyes, they leave no doubt.
I like when they reinterpret old cards in different settings.
I'm building an Emeria deck, can't wait to try it out
I wanted to ask : what is the common consensus about Gideon of the Trials ? I've been playing it in Martyr Procs lists for a while, but it consistently underperformed for me, to the point I ended up removing it from the deck. And Martyr Proc is running a similar package of wraths compared to Emeria Titan. The thing is I felt that Gideon was very hard to defend and keep on board, and his abilities were far from game changing anyway.
I see someone in the previous page playing Restoration Angels instead. I can see myself do that. What do you think of this swap ?
Hi Semoreh, thanks for sharing your list and thoughts!
So, about the Balustrade Spy, I think it's just a matter of preference. Some people like the combo to be the main win condition (so 4 copies makes it more likely) while others think of it as a secondary win condition, so 2 copies is enough, sometimes only 1. I have tried both and I think it really is a matter of meta and personal preference. If your meta is very fast, the combo allows you to win on the spot, if your meta is slower and has more answers, you might want those Balustrade Spies to be Force of Wills or some other defense cards.
Thanks for your insight
That means maybe I could add 1 or 2 additionnal Balustrade Spies in the side I could bring in case I need to go faster.
Or just go with the full playset main deck... frankly I'd consider trimming the Chancellors to make room and move them sideboard but I'm reading on this topic that it's widely seen as a bad idea ^^
The baubles are not bad, but I do think they are not necessary. You need 4x for a chance that they are in your opening hand and even so, you can't cast them on the first turn, you will most likely only be able to reap the benefits on your opponents third turn at best. i'm testing them, but most professional manaless dredge players have already accepted that you can live without.
If the bauble is in your opening hand you will indeed reap the benefits on your opponent's third turn, but it then garanties you a strong third turn. If you don't have baubles in your deck, it feels you're relying a lot on Street Wraiths to enable a fast Dredge or on the biggest Dredgers to hit your yard early but sometimes you only have a Thug and it's pretty slow.
I know the card is far from ideal, but I see it as a backup plan to kickstart the deck again if it sputters. Thus the 3x set instead of a 4x sorta makes sense : it's only a plan B so if I've got it in my opening hand that's sweet, if not it's no big deal.
But maybe it's not the right mentality and I'll change my mind after some playtesting. I totally see your point that it's not necessary.
As for my SB, first the Flame-Kin Zealot comes and goes from MB to SB, I can never decide. I like having both on the MB as sometimes it's easier to win with one or the other. In old times, Flame-Kin Zealot was the preferred win-con but I have such hatred for Ensnaring Bridge that I like to have outs in MB =P Just a pet-peeve.
The Noxious Revivals I'll send you to an article I read written by the genius of Manaless Dredge, Michael Keller (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy). I think his current views are no longer in favor of the card, but as I said, my SB is just a generic one and since Noxious can also serve as a reanimator answer like Faerie Macabre, I think it is not a bad card to try.
The Sickening Shoals are there for all the critters we will find that are annoying, and I think it is better than Contagion. Things like Containment Priest and sometimes even a big reanimator (as the Phantasmagoria can deal with a Griselbrand).
Mindbreak Trap for anything Storm/Ant/Belcher, as those are other non-interactive decks that are as fast as Manaless.
- Yeah contrary to you I see Flame-Kin as my secondary kill, a tech againt Leylines of Sanctity and maybe Surgical Extraction. If there were a little room I'd for sure include it in the main. Maybe trim one Nether Shadow ? It feels like one of the less impactful creature to me. Or go down to 2x Bauble since they're just a convenience. That would free one sideboard slot.
- Thanks for the article about Noxious ! If I see in my meta a lot of Miracle and Reanimator decks, as well as decks using top-of-the-library tutors, I might consider it now
- Sickening Shoals are interesting, and wow indeed they can take care of a Griselbrand in the right situation. Hadn't realized that. I guess the only situation it's inferior to Contagion is when you want to deal with a pair of 1/1s, but that's probably rare anyway.
- Mindbreak Trap I only own a pair but I could consider going for the full playset, since it's so useful.
I'll try to build my sideboard using all your info, thanks ! =)
Hey all ! Quick noob question, if you don't mind : why are some of you playing 2x Balustrade Spy effects and some 4 ? Is there a debate on the subject ?
I have a Manaless Dredge deck but I must say I play Legacy VERY rarely, so my judgment is not worth much.
This is my current Postban list :
I feel Baubles are important, since they allow us to dredge a first time during the opponent's turn. They're not Probes, for sure, but I feel like they're better than just dropping the idea of a 0 cmc draw spell. What do you think ?
I'm also trying to rebuild my sideboard post ban. Now that we have a whole playset of blue cards that's down, I feel Force of Will and Disrupting Shoals are harder to justify.
So far I have :
2x Ashen Rider
3x Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Progenitus
So I still have a little bit of room.
@ArkhangelAzrael : can you tell what the Noxious Revivals and Sickening Shoals are for ? I'm intrigued.
Also, you should just buy a "promo" Progenitus, it's actually pretty cheap
Just a quick post to say I've finally tried Lear's "Bant Martyr Wish" list IRL during a small tournament and it was plenty of fun although the result itself wasn't all that impressive (1-3).
I won agaist burn, then lost against :
- Ad Nauseam. I managed to win ona game with both Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg on the board, but the fact there was no silver bullet against the deck made it hard.
- Thopter Foundry. I won a game by beatdown because the opponent couldn't assemble his combo. Then I lost the following games despite Wheel of Sun and Moon that unfortunately was easy to destroy for my opponent using Abrupt Decay (main deck).
- Green Tron. The matchup just felt horrible, and the land destruction effects weren't enough. I don't often meet Tron in my local meta but boy is it a disaster when I do. Lost 0-2.
The mana felt ok, and frankly the deck is fun. It feels you have plenty of answers, the Spheres and Verdicts make for a great control package... it's just that there aren't apparently enough multicolored silver bullets to make it worthwhile (at least in my meta). I might play it from time to time but it didn't feel better than mono W version.
By the way, I've seen your new mono W brew on the previous page, Lear, and I may give it a shot ! How love how creative you are while still keeping the martyr proc spirit. I can't wait to win a game with a Brisela, it will be quite memorable
Ouch ! I wonder if it doesn't outright kill Manaless Dredge, one of the best viable budget deck of Legacy :/
(without it being broken by any means)
I have it myself and I can't afford to upgrade to a "Normal" Dredge so yeah, that sucks.
I also played the Probe in Ruby Storm, another budget deck...
Maybe I should just cash out from Legacy and only keep my mono red Goblins
I think I'll modify a few things to play these catch all that I feel are necessary in this deck.
I was however pleased by Avacyn (first time trying her), satisfied by Hallowed Burial against Hollow One, and ok with the manabase. The 4 Fields of Ruin 4 ghost quarters feels good
Like you I feel the deck is still looking for ITS finisher because none fits perfectly. The angels are good but kinda slow and fragile to counterspells. Keranos/Kefnet are interesting but require a splash. Assemble the Legion and Luminarch Ascension are a nombo with Solemnity.
I'm not sure about Hazoret either, since it's got no evasion it'll take a looooong time killing your opponent by pinging him 2 damage each turn.
Asking for a turn 4 kill is a little ambitious, but yeah killing by turn 8-10 would already be better than what happens some times with the deck ^^
Adding planeswalkers is an idea but PW : 1/ Are not protected by Leyline of Sanctity 2/ Are not protected by Ghostly Prison and 3/ Suffer from Suppression Field. I'm not sure they'd survive long.
Personnally I'll stick to the Entreat the Angels + Sigil plan game 1 and bring Luminarch Ascensions (+ Obliterate if I go the WR route) against control if necessary.
By the way, content creator Magic Aids posted a video playing a Jeskai version of Pillow Fort.
It makes for a very funny video, and blue enables a lot of drawing plus a funny kill with Keranos. I'm not convinced at all it is better than non blue versions, but it fared pretty well on camera ^^
I must say I'm pretty glad I swapped Grand Abolisher for Defense Grid though. They basically don't remove anything that's on board, so a turn 2 Grid is a very efficient way to protect oneself. And it doesn't die to bolt.
I was also caught of guard by a Mardu Nahiri deck. The damn Nahiri is strong against us, and for a long part of the game I was sure I was just playing against a weird mardu pyromancer list. :X
I had to utterly crush a RB Hollow One deck though. Loved it.
It was the first time I playtested a single Arch of Orazca in the main, and despite the nombo with Suppression field it drew me a few cards so that made it way better than a "normal" land in the slot.
Edit : I really like your sideboard plan, Sandmanness. I'll pilfer it I think. I always refrained to play Luminarch because of Solemnity but I guess against control it is actually viable. The only thing I don't like are the two Abolishers but it's just because I like to blank my opponent's removal spells. I have three grids right now but I should go to 4.
How is the Flagstones/Ghost quarter plan working out for you ?
The only thing I could see myself do with my regular Skred deck : maybe let go of the 4x Relics 2x Scourge main deck like he did. I mean... it's a slight edge against control, but are the slots really worth it ? I'm less and less sure. That's 10% of the deck we can free.
If affinity ends up harder than expected, a Cleansing Nova as a fourth wrath could be interesting.
Thanks for your answer Fincow. I'll have to test with and without gideon then. If I find it underperforming again he won't stay long
I do like the take on Vampiric Tutor myself. It's obvious he's a vampire from Ixalan, and since the beginning I've been a real fan of the Legion of Dusk vampire style. This pale figure, the groomed mustache, the pale eyes, they leave no doubt.
I like when they reinterpret old cards in different settings.
Overall the themes are nice. The jund land deck will probably fuel my Gitrog deck.
I wanted to ask : what is the common consensus about Gideon of the Trials ? I've been playing it in Martyr Procs lists for a while, but it consistently underperformed for me, to the point I ended up removing it from the deck. And Martyr Proc is running a similar package of wraths compared to Emeria Titan. The thing is I felt that Gideon was very hard to defend and keep on board, and his abilities were far from game changing anyway.
I see someone in the previous page playing Restoration Angels instead. I can see myself do that. What do you think of this swap ?
Thanks for your insight
That means maybe I could add 1 or 2 additionnal Balustrade Spies in the side I could bring in case I need to go faster.
Or just go with the full playset main deck... frankly I'd consider trimming the Chancellors to make room and move them sideboard but I'm reading on this topic that it's widely seen as a bad idea ^^
If the bauble is in your opening hand you will indeed reap the benefits on your opponent's third turn, but it then garanties you a strong third turn. If you don't have baubles in your deck, it feels you're relying a lot on Street Wraiths to enable a fast Dredge or on the biggest Dredgers to hit your yard early but sometimes you only have a Thug and it's pretty slow.
I know the card is far from ideal, but I see it as a backup plan to kickstart the deck again if it sputters. Thus the 3x set instead of a 4x sorta makes sense : it's only a plan B so if I've got it in my opening hand that's sweet, if not it's no big deal.
But maybe it's not the right mentality and I'll change my mind after some playtesting. I totally see your point that it's not necessary.
- Yeah contrary to you I see Flame-Kin as my secondary kill, a tech againt Leylines of Sanctity and maybe Surgical Extraction. If there were a little room I'd for sure include it in the main. Maybe trim one Nether Shadow ? It feels like one of the less impactful creature to me. Or go down to 2x Bauble since they're just a convenience. That would free one sideboard slot.
- Thanks for the article about Noxious ! If I see in my meta a lot of Miracle and Reanimator decks, as well as decks using top-of-the-library tutors, I might consider it now
- Sickening Shoals are interesting, and wow indeed they can take care of a Griselbrand in the right situation. Hadn't realized that. I guess the only situation it's inferior to Contagion is when you want to deal with a pair of 1/1s, but that's probably rare anyway.
- Mindbreak Trap I only own a pair but I could consider going for the full playset, since it's so useful.
I'll try to build my sideboard using all your info, thanks ! =)
I have a Manaless Dredge deck but I must say I play Legacy VERY rarely, so my judgment is not worth much.
This is my current Postban list :
1x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
1x Griselbrand
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Prized Amalgam
2x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below
Artifact (3)
3x Urza's Bauble
2x Ashen Rider
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Progenitus
I feel Baubles are important, since they allow us to dredge a first time during the opponent's turn. They're not Probes, for sure, but I feel like they're better than just dropping the idea of a 0 cmc draw spell. What do you think ?
I'm also trying to rebuild my sideboard post ban. Now that we have a whole playset of blue cards that's down, I feel Force of Will and Disrupting Shoals are harder to justify.
So far I have :
2x Ashen Rider
3x Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Progenitus
So I still have a little bit of room.
@ArkhangelAzrael : can you tell what the Noxious Revivals and Sickening Shoals are for ? I'm intrigued.
Also, you should just buy a "promo" Progenitus, it's actually pretty cheap
1x Breeding Pool
4x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
3x Plains
3x Stirring Wildwood
2x Temple Garden
2x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (5)
2x Gideon Jura
3x Gideon of the Trials
1x Kami of False Hope
4x Martyr of Sands
3x Ranger of Eos
4x Squadron Hawk
2x Thraben Inspector
Sorcery (9)
4x Glittering Wish
2x Proclamation of Rebirth
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
Enchantment (4)
3x Detention Sphere
1x Search for Azcanta Flip
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
1x Detention Sphere
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Hex Parasite
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Meddling Mage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sky Hussar
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
I won agaist burn, then lost against :
- Ad Nauseam. I managed to win ona game with both Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg on the board, but the fact there was no silver bullet against the deck made it hard.
- Thopter Foundry. I won a game by beatdown because the opponent couldn't assemble his combo. Then I lost the following games despite Wheel of Sun and Moon that unfortunately was easy to destroy for my opponent using Abrupt Decay (main deck).
- Green Tron. The matchup just felt horrible, and the land destruction effects weren't enough. I don't often meet Tron in my local meta but boy is it a disaster when I do. Lost 0-2.
The mana felt ok, and frankly the deck is fun. It feels you have plenty of answers, the Spheres and Verdicts make for a great control package... it's just that there aren't apparently enough multicolored silver bullets to make it worthwhile (at least in my meta). I might play it from time to time but it didn't feel better than mono W version.
By the way, I've seen your new mono W brew on the previous page, Lear, and I may give it a shot ! How love how creative you are while still keeping the martyr proc spirit. I can't wait to win a game with a Brisela, it will be quite memorable
(without it being broken by any means)
I have it myself and I can't afford to upgrade to a "Normal" Dredge so yeah, that sucks.
I also played the Probe in Ruby Storm, another budget deck...
Maybe I should just cash out from Legacy and only keep my mono red Goblins