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  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
    ? What exactly is your question?

    What does Pia and Kiran Nalaar bring to the table as a sideboard card in the deck? Why do we want it, and against whom?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    GreatNate, why Pia and Kiran?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from 0oSunnYo0 »
    First of all thanks for the feedback so far, this is all very helpful in my quest to finalise my list for the PPTQ season here in Melbourne! Some good points have been made.. I'll address a couple.

    @ax92
    Gearhulk is a house against Eldrazi Tron (as long as your deck can go to turn 6 and hit its land drops against them). It is also great against delve threats like Tasigur and Gurmag Angler. It also is a flash win-con that generates value ETB which ticks all the boxes for a control deck. I'm a big fan but you do have to build your deck to accomodate it and it would be horrible in a Queller/Geist list (although I've never tested it). It is also weak to Khologan's Command. The drop to 3 snapcaster mages was to accomodate the Gearhulk as I want better game vs. Eldrazi Tron, but once I test the list further I will inevitably move back to 4 snapcaster mages.

    @zcowan
    First of all I have to sadly say that Shadow of Doubt will not cause a Scapeshift player to sac his lands, as Scapeshift requires the player to sacrifice lands upon resolution not cast, and the Scapeshift player can simply choose not to sac lands. The card (shift) would be much less powerful if it were sac-on-cast. Responding to Scapeshift with SoD is more like using a hard-counter remand.

    Next up on the PtE synergy, it is true that if the opponent drops an early big threat that we need to path we may not have the mana or resources to cast both SoD and PtE. However it is also empirically true that when we have mana for both spells, SoD makes PtE better. And while basic lands are not run in high numbers in modern, most decks will have enough basics to fetch after at least your first 2 PtE's. SoD is good here, but the PtE is an incidental bonus in my mind (an incidental bonus that makes it main-deckable in certain metas).

    In terms of using ones second turn to nab a fetchland on turn 2 being a waste of a turn, I'm not sure that it is. If they have 1 less land then usually they are unable to make their turn 3 play, or will play sub-optimally that turn and not do much threatening. At the very least hitting a fetch on turn 2 is a 2-mana, cantripping land destruction spell. If any LD spell actually gave us a cantrip and cost 2 mana then we would all be howling its praises, so I'm not so quick to dismiss the value of this play.

    There are indeed things that we would rather just counter and deal with that way - for example Primeval Titan is better countered than allowed to resolve, even with SoD in hand to stop the ETB Search trigger. But in most of my examples above a counterspell and a SoD have examctly the same effect, but SoD draws a card. Counterspells trade 1-for-1. SoD trades 1 for 0 in essence. In fact, I am of the opinion that in almost ANY circumstance where both SoD and Logic Knot/Mana Leak can hit a target, SoD is a more efficient spell by a country mile. Again it's all about 'draw a card'.

    Finally on the issue of 'tempo'... tempo is a funny word to use a lot of the time because it's ambiguous. I regard tempo as manifestation of board state (I guess others would define it differently). For example, remand is a perfect tempo card, allowing you to time-walk an opponents turn 2/3 play while remaining card-neutral, and then letting you resolve your turn 3 play 'ahead' of the natural board state. SoD isn't exactly tempo in the same manner but I sure feel way ahead on tempo when they crack a fetch when i have SoD in hand, as it will essentially allow me to resolve my turn 3 or 4 play (or hold up the relevant turn 3 or 4 interaction) while my opponent is still working on the plays that his depleted mana base will allow.

    PPTQ's this weekend and FNM tonight, I'll let you know how it performs!



    Gearhulk seems great against eldrazi tron unless they have Karn or Ugin or Oblivion Stone or All is Dust. Since it has flash, you can negate that downside somewhat. A 5/6 to ambush a reality smasher seems like fun.

    Shadow of Doubt seems excellent when it's good, ok when it's a 2 mana cycle, and awful when it's bad. I doubt its effectiveness and would only run 1 total main for a couple reasons. Its mana efficiency is alright, but not stellar. When paired with snapcaster, to Shadow Snap Shadow costs 6 mana, for example. Seems like a cornercase (and it likely is) but asking how it interacts with Snappy is a good way to get a feel for the card's effectiveness.

    I really don't like it against GDS, since they have thoughtseize and IOK. Once they see that there is a SoD on the other side of the table, you can't get them quite so easily. Against tron though--actual tron--it seems like a great card. They have a bunch of maps, sylvan scryings, etc.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    I just watched the top 8 Jeskai match from SCG Syracuse where Rossum got eaten by Eldrazi Tron. Question for the Jeskai Queller pilots: how bad is the matchup exactly? It looks pretty disgusting. What Karn doesn't hit, All is Dust does. They have Thought-Knot Seer as a better Vendilion Clique to eat answers for the big threats--either by being countered or by taking something with its ability--and Reality Smasher and Matter Reshaper to grind. Queller certainly seems great against the lower part of the curve, but the higher part--ballista, all is dust, karn--seems to disregard it. I have thought about giving the deck a shot, but seeing it crumple on camera like that gives me misgivings.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Hi all, I just wanted to state that the Queller version still feels strong. I placed 1st in a small PPTQ yesterday (only 27) using a list essentially the same as this one: UWR Flash. The only differences were -1 Spirebluff for +1 Desolate Lighthouse and -1 Logic Knot for 1 Remand. I was a little worried about the addition of a colorless land, but it never caused a problem in the matches that day. I played against Grixis Shadow, UR Storm, Knightfall, Burn, UR Storm, and GR Tron. All matches were 2-0 with the exception of Burn (which is always close!).

    Highlight of the day was against the burn deck in the T8. I'm at 4 with a Spell Queller that has a Boros Charm under it and the burn opponent is at 8. My opponent's hand is all gas, but he has only had two lands to work with. Instead of going for the kill on his turn on which I only have a Steam Vents and Flooded Strand up, he let's me untap and draw. I draw an Electrolyze to match with my two bolts and go to attacks. He casts Lightning Helix on the Queller to go for the kill, and I'm able to Lyze+Bolt+Bolt for the win!

    I think in this version of the deck Electrolyze is very important. It not only lets you gain incremental advantage when killing small creatures, it also chips away at your opponent's lifetotal without costing you a card. That's extremely relevant for a deck that wants to enable a bolt-snap-bolt finish. If you're playing a slower build with more powerful win-cons, then I could see the card being less useful (though I still think it's good).

    There's a UWR build I'm curious about though that seems to be doing well online in the hands of habakiri: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/716363#online . It's built very similarly to the UW decks that have been successful lately, with red being added only for Helix, Electrolyze, and sideboard cards. It seems crazy to play red without lightning bolt, but it's hard to argue with his/her results. What do you all think?





    Deck looks great. I want to try it.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from zcowan »
    @JohnSwift

    My mainboard is:
    4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
    1x Emrakul
    4x Path to Exile
    4x Lightning Bolt
    2x Electrolyze
    3x Lightning Helix
    2x Cryptic Command
    2x Remand
    2x Supreme Verdict
    4x Serum Visions
    4x Snapcaster Mage
    2x Mana Leak
    1x Logic Knot
    2x Faithless Looting
    1x Sphinx's Revelation

    Then Lands

    And My Sideboard:
    4x Geist of Saint Traft
    2x Stony Silence
    2x Dispel
    1x Counterflux
    1x Rest in Peace
    1x Anger of the Gods
    1x Keranos, God of Storms
    1x Crumble to Dust
    1x Negate
    1x Wear/Tear

    I went 3-1 in tonight with the list with strong success of 2-0 against Grixis Death Shadow, UB Faeries, and Grixis Control. My only though matchup was Affinity which came down to a close game three.
    If anyone has any questions on my deckbuild, I know it seems all over the place in writing but there are reasonings behind what I run. I've owned and played the deck for over two years now so this has been tweaked many times Smile

    Why remand? I've been consistently unimpressed by the card, especially against burn, affinity, and death's shadow.
    Sphinx's rev with Nahiri? Please explain.

    Electrolyze? It's a sweet card, but is it truly good?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Bearscape: Do you run the full four quellers main with Nahiri? If so, how does that affect your density of Snapcaster targets?

    Zcowan: Could I get your list? If not, could you tell me what your removal/burn packages look like?


    On Queller, I'd like to trade into some at some point to try them out against tron and valakut. Seems great against GB tron, since brutality doesn't deal with it and you can queller their sylvan scrying or map.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    When Grixis Death's shadow isn't the top deck, I might be persuaded to play copycat.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from TheAller »
    Personally I'm following what Harlan Firer is doing in the last couple months he has had really impressive results with his Geist-Control version (in the last event, he swapped Geist for Quellers). He is playing something very similar to Tamada but usually he runs Geist over Queller. I think that's a correct choice 'cause Queller being our only creature other than Snap means it's usually just going to die while Geist protects itself. Queller really shines in decks like Bant CoCo where there's an overabundance of targets for removals. But I guess regardless of whether you chose to play Queller or Geist, that's the best Jeskai Control list. 4x of everything, no Ancestral Vision, no maindeck Spreading Seas, no Nahiri. Like I said, it's the best Jeskai Control list. But I don't know whether it's the best Jeskai list. 'Cause Copycat is for real. It requires a different playstyle but I think that in many regards, it's a better deck than UR Twin was.


    You think that Jeskai Copycat is better than Twin was? That's a bold statement, and I honestly have a hard time believing it. Twin warped the format by forcing everyone to have specific answers. Jeskai copycat seems like a fun deck, and I'd like it to be good, but I doubt that it's great right now.

    The reason I don't like spell queller tempo builds of Jeskai right now is that (in my amateur opinion; I've only played about 80 games with Jeskai Nahiri so far) it doesn't deal with big creature decks super well right now. Two of the top decks, Eldrazi tron and grixis death's shadow, are both big creature decks. I think that the main reason to be playing neither of these decks right now is supreme verdict. It kills all of the threats out of GDS and most of the creatures from Eldrazi tron outright. Can't be chaliced, can't be stubbornly denied. It's bad against the Karn draws, but we have counterspells for that. Indeed, I presently have 2x Ceremonious rejection. Verdict can be thoughtseized, but that goes for most every answer in the format. Geist and Queller just don't go well with Supreme verdict.

    I grant that every version of jeskai has path to exile, which unconditionally kills stuff, but having an additional 3-4 cards that sweep up any mess just puts it over the top for me.

    So I'm only really comfortable cosigning Jeskai Nahiri and draw-go at this point.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    I feel like if you're playing your Jeskai deck super aggressively, it might just be better to drop it for a deck that does aggro better.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from ebrosef »
    How do people feel about Ceremonius Rejection? Is it worth running in the Stony Silence slots? As I see it Stony is a much better hoser but Ceremonius has the chance to hit Eldrazi tron a bit.

    I play both. Stony silence is fantastic against affinity and lantern, but not much else. Ceremonious rejection hits tron, lantern, and affinity. Against affinity they play different roles. Stony Silence makes their stuff worse, whereas rejection makes your interaction more efficient.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from ax92 »
    Guys during this "reborn" of control i came across many lists that almost forget about Spell Snare. So here's my question, it still worth the 2 spots in main or i could replace 1 (or both) with some other counters? They were very handy in many games though.
    Right now that's my counter suite: 2 Snare, 2 Knot, 2 Remands, 3 CC, 1 Ojutai's command (that's my flex spot in main).
    I was thinking about a possible switch like -1 Snare - 1 OC / + 1 Knot + 1 Leak

    I just bought two yesterday at GP Atlanta and actually cut the remands for them. I haven't tested them extensively, but so far they're promising. I played a few casual games against my affinity buddy and they were great for stopping turn 1 and 2 plays that they rely on to snowball out of control. Vault skirge off of a turn 1 springleaf drum, in this particular case. I'm also looking forward to having them be either definitively good or bad in most matchups, so that my games 2 and 3 become stronger. Against burn, for example, spell snare seems decidedly great while against eldrazi tron it seems decidedly terrible. The only places that it seems medium are the decks that run only a few two-drops, like Grixis Death's Shadow and GR Valakut.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Guys, how does Jeskai Nahiri beat Eldrazi Tron? What's the plan? Are we the beatdown or the control? I tried boarding in Geist and going beatdown once, and that was a mistake, I think, since they can just block geist.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control


    Not sure that this is quite the right place for the deck, but I'll give you my two cents anyway. I think 9 creatures is too high and I'd cut the clique. Sphinx's rev seems too expensive for the game plan of spewing off spells in a mana-efficient manner. Maybe you want Mishra's Bauble instead?

    Electrolyze might be good, but I think that 0-2 is probably better than 3-4. Seems like an expensive way to churn out tokens.



    Just remember that the reason that Mentor is good in Vintage is that there are a lot of free/cheap ways to trigger it, such as moxen, gush, ponder, brainstorm, preordain, probe, etc.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    I went 2-2 at a local modern FMN. Beat Jund scapeshift and GW vizier druid combo, lost to GR tron and naya company.

    Round 1: Naya CoCo beat me 2-0. Game 1 I kept a land-heavy hand with a serum visions and a Nahiri. Maybe a Snapcaster, I forget. Loxodon smiter gave me headaches and eventually killed me. Game 2 he brought in choke and blood moon. Between the threats and the enchantments, I couldn't do a whole lot. I made some sequencing misplays, which may have cost me that game. How many non-island blue sources do we want in the deck to fight choke?

    Round 2: GR Tron chewed me up and spit me out. Game 1 I kept a hand of lands and spells, not knowing what I was up against and suprisingly got to the late game with the Remand and Cryptic in my opener. He got me in the end. He suprised me with through the breach. It didn't matter; any payoff at that point would have done it. Game 2 I brought in 2 Geist, 1 negate, 1 ceremonious rejection. I should have thought to board in the wear // tear. I never saw a geist and he killed my ambush viper snapcaster. I got stuck on two lands for a turn or two, which didn't help. Pyroclasm might invalidate the Geist plan. I'm thinking about putting a Ghost Quarter in the side to supplement the one in the main.

    Round 3: Jund scapeshift went off for 18 damage when I was at 16. I helixed him. So he sacrificed sakura-tribe elder to finish me. Response: Blessed alliance. Fell to 2, then untapped and cast Nahiri. He failed to draw anything to deal with it or deal me the last two damage, so I eaked out the kill. Game 2 I brought in the geist and played it on turn 3. Opponent cast lost legacy to get rid of Nahiri, but found no way to deal with Geist.

    Round 4: Green-White Vizier/Druid combo seems like a great matchup for us. The deck is basically all removal and countermagic. I brought in one copy of dispel to deal with the chords and CoCos. I didn't want the second for fear of making the counterspells not work against creatures--the bulk of the deck. Game 1 I managed to stick a Nahiri and protect it for a while. Poor girl took lots of hits, but I eventually pulled her up to 8 and we killed him with Emrakul. Remand on chord of calling for a lot is quite satisfying; it's a real tempo swing, since they have to tap their creatures, of which they ought to have relatively few, considering we've been going to town with bolt, helix, and path. Game 2 I was beat down by sheer value. Kitchen Finks+Gavony Township helped him grind through two supreme verdicts. Two! Maybe I should have saved the second wrath a turn or two to have extra removal to add to the verdict and kill one permanently. Game 3 was a grind. I killed everything that moved as best I could but eventually I ran out of kill spells. So he stuck the combo and cast CoCo. I dispelled it. He had nothing else to use the mana on except a birds of paradise. So I threw my needle spires at him for a turn or two in which he whiffed. Then I drew Anger and nuked his board. Great card for the matchup. Then I beat him down with Spires and Snapcaster.


    I found myself siding out electrolyze a lot. Perhaps that just needs to go entirely. I love the card, but I just don't think that it's worth it right now.
    Posted in: Control
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