For the mirror, use ooze and Linvala. There is no need to run that torpor orb on a stick.
Against tron, Crumble to Dust is something we can do to get them. Fulminator mages with recursion are also very good. Yeah, sometimes they have natural t3 tron into karn that blows a land and you can never cast the fulminator/crumble; or they just have the tron and stony silence is useless. Other times, you crumble a land, stony their mana rocks and they can't do anything besides getting beat down by dudes. I still dont like facing tron, but the new eldrazi are scarier for us
Ooze
Linvala
KoTR > the one gets out first gavony normally wins
are good vs mirror.
Yes the things you pointed out are good but for me they aren't solid answer to tron or comes up too late. Right now tron is in a very good place in modern. Modern isn't fast enough to beat tron and has slow land disruption cards. With the advent of the new expansion tron decks gets lots of toys to play and test. Sooner or later Tron and Twin are going to be the face of modern.
The deck is very very much fun to play and can be played in different ways depending on your own preference but in my experience eventhough you tweak the deck to pull out the combo fastest possible its not fast enough to win against some deck or a single ooze can hinder you to combo out and just win via attacking with horde of creatures.
Hi,
Tron is really a hard matchup for any aggro decks. Im not sure here but i believe there is no good SB or game plan against it. Under bloodmoon RG tron can still run and beat you eventually.
As for angel/feeder combo, when coco abzan was rising in popularity gy hate cards is very common main deck or in the SB thats why i opted to play them. For me having 2 slots taken away by a 2 card combo that could give you a win is worth it.
Right now i feel coco abzan is in the plateau stage in where it needs more versatile cards or stronger cards so that it could be pushed as a tier 1 deck in modern.
If a card would be made something along the lines of:
Rare
G
1/1
Sacrifice a creature, add X green mana where X is the creatures converted mana cost.
Rare
WG
2/2
If this creature is untapped other creatures you control have persist
If this creature is tapped other creatures you control gets +2/+2 and trample
@TobyornotToby
I guess smiter vs anafenza the foremost , will have its pros and cons, but for now i'll be going with smiter as i feel in our meta smiter is the better pick.
@G_g53 and @TobyornotToby
What does your deck look like since im guessing you two are more aggroish over combo. Another thing thats been bugging me is that while running a more aggro list, are there games in where you felt your game 1 was weaker to a combo build.
A friend of mine has reduced his melira combo to 1 anafenza kin tree 1 melira 1 seer 4 finks and 1 redcap, but added the thune and spike to his build, his reason behind it which for me is very valid is that expect for finks and valorz, the melira combo is just too weak or are almost 1/1 or 2/2 bears that couldn't hurt your opponent unless they got buffed by gavony. And it somewhat forces you to over extend your board so could later on go for an alpha strike assuming you draw and activate a gavony before it gets destroyed.
A route which was previously pointed out here aswell was instead of using land creatures he opted to use restoration angel, because it has evasion which is a very valid point, but the 4cc is not. The chances of your coco revealing nothing gets higher aswell. I don't know whats the best creature to fill the slot. I've tried flickerwisp its okay it has its ups and downs, but dies to pyroclasm or anger thats why i was forced to switch to smiter.
I personally like having the combo. I feel like Archangel is strong enough to keep with or without Spike Feeder. But once committed to having Thune in the list it seems like finding one more spot for Feeder is not much of an opportunity cost. Feeder isn't as strong as Finks, but it does have some nice synergies with Anafenza and Gavony and comes in handy vs Burn. He can also reset a Finks or Redcap with a persist counter, which could be useful if we find our other combo pieces.
I have to admit, most of the recent successful lists seem to have dropped them along with some of our other 1-ofs in order to be more consistent. However, I also see a lot of other decks starting to add Relic to their sideboards to deal with us, so it might not be a bad thing to have access to the non-graveyard based 2 card combo now that we are more of a known entity.
I agree that angel of thune alone can tip the game in your favor most of time. I also agree on what you said about feeder, i guess it will just boil down to personal preferences if the combo will be part of the main or SB. In terms of GY hate main yes there are alot at the moment. (gw hatebear, abzan, rg tron and maybe others). Currently i moved tune and spike in the SB, as i have no more space for spikefeeder. But at times i put them back in the main removing spellskite and linvala or something else.
I think another option that could work is reducing the number of melira combo parts and adding legit beatsticks like loxodon smiters. honestly the combo is very easy to break thats why i was thinking of going that route.
I just finished a 60+ man tourny in our place last week and finished 6th place after swiss, we didn't played out the semi's as it was getting late and we all decide to just split the prize. I never missed the tune and feeder combo in the main, maybe i was lucky that i didn't encounter my opponents main deck hate. But loxodon smiter was part of my sideboard and it performed very well and it got me thinking why not make it part of the main deck and reduce the melira combo, i haven't tested my idea if anyone has how was it ?
Few notes: Flickerwisp was freaking awful, worst card in the deck, and I am replacing it either with Reveillark, Spellskite #2, or fiend hunter. Everything else was solid, just sucked when g1 I saw a Olivia or Tasigur and had no way to deal with them. BBD was right about Varolz, he doesn't solve any problems that we have issues with; the scavenge ability almost was never relevant and honestly, I'd rather have a 3rd seer due to the easiness of casting/chording him. Tidehollow over thoughtseize is a double-edged sword. It's a body/beater and can be chorded/company, but there were sometimes where I wished the card I removed would've stayed that way, although 2 life is very relevant and creature/non-creature ratio is so important so I don't know if thoughtseize over tidehollow is correct or incorrect in the long run.
hi,
i don't get why you had such a bad experience in running flickerwisp, so far its doing what its suppose to do for me, which gives my creatures extra value. paired with anafenza kin tree its a solid 4/2 flyer. as for valorz i found him to be okay as a one off in my 3 sac outlets. he has his benefits, right now comboing off is not that easy as people know to disable the combo and honestly its easy to disable with the changing meta.
what was your horrible experience with flickerwisp if i may ask.
hello,
do you really need the extra draw from dark confidants ??
how was your deck doing since you are more of a aggro approach rather than combo. currently i ran a comboish / value build, value comes from flickerwisp.
what are the things you've found to be solid enough that is a must in the core. As for me in my testing running 3 anafenza kin tree is okay, yes she is a 2/2 dork, but don't forget, that she eats removals from time to time, if left unchecked can improve your aggro plans especially if your running flickerwisp 4/2 flyer yummy !.
I too have moved angel + spike in the side as i found myself not needing them in the main so much, but i will not deny that tune can single handedly win you games atleast that was my experience.
It has synergy with chord and that is it.
This deck wants a mana dork on turn 1, not on turn 2.
It is a actual dead draw late game bc gavony doesnt help it.
The slot(s) it takes up are better suited with other things.
Its synergy with chord does not warrant it a spot in the deck.
The only way i would see it being good is if you ran more meliras instead of anafenzas so you can still cast something after it on turn 2(with a mana dork on 1).Either way, i havent and wont be running it.
Its just a dud
hello,
i felt that way aswell with regards to wall of roots and mana dorks. As for spike feeder and tune better off in the SB, this is somewhat a yes and no for me. There are games in which tune alone gave me the win, due to the fact i can't combo off due to scooze or i can't draw any removal spells.
Can you share your list ? right now i want to cut the tune and feeder in the main aswell and fit something else that could help me win via aggro as honestly the combo is very very easy to break especially against an experienced player or has faced the deck several times.
As for Varolz, i found him to be ok ok, at times he is helpful in giving me wins, not that he is super great but i feel 2 seer 1 varloz is the right mix. What do you think about the list im currently running.
Wilt-Leaf junk is a better deck than regular Abzan because it crushes the mirror and has similar metagame matchups. I'm trying to get this deck to the same point (crushing Wilt-Leaf junk and regular junk and enjoying similar matchups) and i was there with the midrange list but the combo list has performed even better. Now the all in list has been outperforming the combo heavy list with abrupt decay, but testing will tell.
Junk Liege and Junk midrange are not mirror matches, they play very different games. Junk liege is deisgned to beak midrange, but still doesn't make the cut, and even for mirdange is not impossible or too hard to win that game, it's not over 55% in their advantage, which is Junk midrange's average against most of the field.
To me, this deck has proven already better results than Junk Liege, and it's on its way to the top Tier. In time it'll get there, we might need just one more card, or a slight change in the config, but this deck has nothing to prove, it is an excellent weapon of choice. Junk Liege might have made a top8 at PT FRF, but after the surprising apparition then, it hasn't proved itself as a better deck than the Midrange version of Junk. They have even started splashing red for Sideboard cards, because they have a rough time against this metagame.
hello,
i don't know how the deck will fare once people do recognize it and start putting in main deck hate. right now a early grave hate like scooze is giving the deck problems, what more if the meta develops or stat doing something about it. right now i feel the deck hasn't found its optimum list, if others have found it then good.
I have 23 lands, instead of the 22 run by some of the lists. With my 7 mana dorks I haven't hard a problem with the higher curve. The base already is built to be ready for turn 3 Collected Company, so Restoration Angel fits fine in that slot as effect extra copies of CC.
While I have an Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder in my collection from the old Kiki-Pod days, I haven't tried slotting them into this build. Five mana is a lot more than four, often taking 2 more turns to get to. And Archangel does relatively little the turn you play it unless you are already to combo or have a good board presence with lifegain effects.
Maybe I should try that combo in the board, as a backup against graveyard hate. In the past, I've found that killing the opposing hate cards (with Qasali Pridemage, Reclamation Sage, or removal) was better than trying to win some alternate way. I already have the alternate method of beating down with Township buffs.
Hello,
I see, but based on my testing making gavony as a backup plan is okay, assuming you don't get hit by a sweeper. I feel its somewhat same as the angel and feeder combo. Maybe its in our place only and will not apply to all but most control decks here, packs drown in sorrow or anger of the gods or wrath of god main deck, sadly our deck forces use somewhat to over commit.
Anyways i've tested your logic on singleton resto angel, it was fine acts like a 2nd spellskite, i have a main deck linvala, i feel linvala is much more valuable over resto. As for the angel + spikefeeder combo i will admit that its slow so i might cut the 2 and replace them with maybe 2 resto angle but just maybe.., the thing i want with it is the instant win we get when your up against tons of flying spirit tokens, in which plain attacking will not cut it due to the sheer numbers of your opponents tokens.
Hello,
Im guessing you haven't played with your list if you had, im sure your struggling chopping off a forest or a plains. The first thing i did when i tried running KOTRs was to change my land config and increased my basics from 4 to 6 as your burn matchup will suffer with the increase amount of fetch. I will admit that the vault + kotr is really a strong aggro plan. But again KOTR suffers the same problem as your combo which is a turn 2 scooze by your opponent will give you headaches. Especially if you can't get a removal, thats why i prefer the backup plan of spikefeeder and angel of tune combo.
It seems like it would be worse vs. Twin though. I have noticed a large amount of Twin at my meta recently. It got somewhat hated out, but has made a resurgence. My SB right now has 2 Abrupt Decay, 3 Path to Exile, and 2 Thoughtseize along with several creatures that can shut down Twin when they are Collected in response (like Spellskite or Flickerwisp).
This. I am rejoining the deck after giving it up after the Pod-ban. I almost lose every game agianst splinter twin... It's very very hard to come even close to game winning against twin. I play the exact list which won the SCG Premier IQ (because I just stepped into 'Collected Chaos', which I think is a better name than 'Look Ma, No Pod' clearly).
What's the plan against them? Playing 2 Decays and 3/4 Path in SB and hoping for the best?
I was thinking putting an extra 'out' against them in the form of Curse of Death Hold? It seems a little bit slow, but with the mana accelerators it seems testable. But I could def be wrong here, due to the fact that it's not a creature, thus not fetchable with Chord or Company.
Run main deck linvala and pridemage, but yeah twin is a very hard matchup indeed
@Aranthar
Hello,
Im guessing thats why you run 1 flickerwisp and 3 restoration angel as compared to a mix of 2 siege rhino 2 resto angel, is because you want the evasion ? and the flash is just a bonus. Its more logical to run them im not saying your wrong, i also like to change to creatures which has evasion. the problem i encounter if i run 4cc up creatures are that when you cast collected company they put them on the bottom of your library you almost never have a chance to cast them.
As for the singleton flickerwisp im guessing its common target is e.witness and pontif against token decks ?
how is running 2 witness ? and what do you normally get from witness collected ? chord ?
does the witness provide big impact or just minimal ? because in my experience my singleton witness is just fine, i feel running 2 might be too much
Running 3 gavony, have you tried out brimaz?, he is good when gavony is online, doesn't have evasion though.
Anyone has some tips against Jund? I think it's such a hard MU. They play tons of removal spells and once a bob does his job it's gg anyway. Not to mention Ooze... I literally lose every match against Jund...
Hello,
Same thing i have a hard time winning against them, the only time i won was via tune + spikefeeeder, in my whole playtest against jund i never had the chance to combo out due to scavenging ooze or i have a clear board bec of there removals.
Im testing a more aggroish version right now kinda similar to the list which runs 3 kotr and 1 vault of the archangel. i reduced the combo enablers to 3 of each expect for finks, and added muscle to the deck so far its doing ok, but im still not satisfied with it.
So far i found linvala to be a good 1 off main deck as it stops twin, mirror and other random decks. Mirran Crusaders are very very good against mirror or abzan. I found blood baron to be so so bec of his high casting cost before i could cast him it got discarded, but once you are able to resolve him, his as good as mirran aswell.
RE Jund matchup: You should be beating Jund consistently. We have many more threats than they have removal, we have much more value, and they can never tap out. I haven't lost a game to Jund in my five or so matches against them.
Here's a more linear and focused list that I'm testing currently(changes happen on a daily basis):
Yes, that's a 12-card sideboard. The last 3 slots are totally up in the air right now (could be 3 Fulminator Mage, or a different strategy).
Hello,
I don't know how you do it, saying jund is an easy matchup or maybe the jund your facing is different from mine. Anyways, besides jund i find jeskai to be a very hard matchup. Maybe bec of your combo oriented list the redundancy is high enough so you could still combo out.
Typical jund i face runs: 2-3 thoughsize, 2-3 wrench mind, 2-3 drown in sorrow, 2-3 firespout, 4 bolts, 2-3 terminates, 3 liliana, several muderous cut, fulminator mages, etc., and i couldn't barely have a board against them, paired with ooze, even persist creatures can't do anything about it.
I tested rally the ancestors before and i must say yes its really good paired with grand abolisher, the problem is when ooze has eaten all your GY, it makes rally a subpar card. Another scenario is when you resolve a abolisher your opponent will just wait for his turn to eat all your gy.
Ooze
Linvala
KoTR > the one gets out first gavony normally wins
are good vs mirror.
Yes the things you pointed out are good but for me they aren't solid answer to tron or comes up too late. Right now tron is in a very good place in modern. Modern isn't fast enough to beat tron and has slow land disruption cards. With the advent of the new expansion tron decks gets lots of toys to play and test. Sooner or later Tron and Twin are going to be the face of modern.
The deck is very very much fun to play and can be played in different ways depending on your own preference but in my experience eventhough you tweak the deck to pull out the combo fastest possible its not fast enough to win against some deck or a single ooze can hinder you to combo out and just win via attacking with horde of creatures.
Tron is really a hard matchup for any aggro decks. Im not sure here but i believe there is no good SB or game plan against it. Under bloodmoon RG tron can still run and beat you eventually.
As for angel/feeder combo, when coco abzan was rising in popularity gy hate cards is very common main deck or in the SB thats why i opted to play them. For me having 2 slots taken away by a 2 card combo that could give you a win is worth it.
Right now i feel coco abzan is in the plateau stage in where it needs more versatile cards or stronger cards so that it could be pushed as a tier 1 deck in modern.
If a card would be made something along the lines of:
Rare
G
1/1
Sacrifice a creature, add X green mana where X is the creatures converted mana cost.
Rare
WG
2/2
If this creature is untapped other creatures you control have persist
If this creature is tapped other creatures you control gets +2/+2 and trample
I guess smiter vs anafenza the foremost , will have its pros and cons, but for now i'll be going with smiter as i feel in our meta smiter is the better pick.
@G_g53 and @TobyornotToby
What does your deck look like since im guessing you two are more aggroish over combo. Another thing thats been bugging me is that while running a more aggro list, are there games in where you felt your game 1 was weaker to a combo build.
A friend of mine has reduced his melira combo to 1 anafenza kin tree 1 melira 1 seer 4 finks and 1 redcap, but added the thune and spike to his build, his reason behind it which for me is very valid is that expect for finks and valorz, the melira combo is just too weak or are almost 1/1 or 2/2 bears that couldn't hurt your opponent unless they got buffed by gavony. And it somewhat forces you to over extend your board so could later on go for an alpha strike assuming you draw and activate a gavony before it gets destroyed.
A route which was previously pointed out here aswell was instead of using land creatures he opted to use restoration angel, because it has evasion which is a very valid point, but the 4cc is not. The chances of your coco revealing nothing gets higher aswell. I don't know whats the best creature to fill the slot. I've tried flickerwisp its okay it has its ups and downs, but dies to pyroclasm or anger thats why i was forced to switch to smiter.
I agree that angel of thune alone can tip the game in your favor most of time. I also agree on what you said about feeder, i guess it will just boil down to personal preferences if the combo will be part of the main or SB. In terms of GY hate main yes there are alot at the moment. (gw hatebear, abzan, rg tron and maybe others). Currently i moved tune and spike in the SB, as i have no more space for spikefeeder. But at times i put them back in the main removing spellskite and linvala or something else.
I think another option that could work is reducing the number of melira combo parts and adding legit beatsticks like loxodon smiters. honestly the combo is very easy to break thats why i was thinking of going that route.
I just finished a 60+ man tourny in our place last week and finished 6th place after swiss, we didn't played out the semi's as it was getting late and we all decide to just split the prize. I never missed the tune and feeder combo in the main, maybe i was lucky that i didn't encounter my opponents main deck hate. But loxodon smiter was part of my sideboard and it performed very well and it got me thinking why not make it part of the main deck and reduce the melira combo, i haven't tested my idea if anyone has how was it ?
thanks
hi,
i don't get why you had such a bad experience in running flickerwisp, so far its doing what its suppose to do for me, which gives my creatures extra value. paired with anafenza kin tree its a solid 4/2 flyer. as for valorz i found him to be okay as a one off in my 3 sac outlets. he has his benefits, right now comboing off is not that easy as people know to disable the combo and honestly its easy to disable with the changing meta.
what was your horrible experience with flickerwisp if i may ask.
hello,
do you really need the extra draw from dark confidants ??
how was your deck doing since you are more of a aggro approach rather than combo. currently i ran a comboish / value build, value comes from flickerwisp.
what are the things you've found to be solid enough that is a must in the core. As for me in my testing running 3 anafenza kin tree is okay, yes she is a 2/2 dork, but don't forget, that she eats removals from time to time, if left unchecked can improve your aggro plans especially if your running flickerwisp 4/2 flyer yummy !.
I too have moved angel + spike in the side as i found myself not needing them in the main so much, but i will not deny that tune can single handedly win you games atleast that was my experience.
hello,
i felt that way aswell with regards to wall of roots and mana dorks. As for spike feeder and tune better off in the SB, this is somewhat a yes and no for me. There are games in which tune alone gave me the win, due to the fact i can't combo off due to scooze or i can't draw any removal spells.
Can you share your list ? right now i want to cut the tune and feeder in the main aswell and fit something else that could help me win via aggro as honestly the combo is very very easy to break especially against an experienced player or has faced the deck several times.
As for Varolz, i found him to be ok ok, at times he is helpful in giving me wins, not that he is super great but i feel 2 seer 1 varloz is the right mix. What do you think about the list im currently running.
Lands [22]
4 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
2 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
2 gavony townships
2 razor verge ticket
1 wooded bastion
2 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
2 godless shrine
Spells [10]
4 collected company
3 chord of calling
2 abrupt decay
1 path to exile
Creatures [28]
4 birds
2 noble
3 anafenza kin tree
1 melira
1 varolz
2 viscera seer
4 kitchen finks
1 redcap
3 voice of resurgence
1 pridemage
1 scooze
2 eternal witness
2 flickerwisp
1 linvala
hello,
i don't know how the deck will fare once people do recognize it and start putting in main deck hate. right now a early grave hate like scooze is giving the deck problems, what more if the meta develops or stat doing something about it. right now i feel the deck hasn't found its optimum list, if others have found it then good.
Hello,
I see, but based on my testing making gavony as a backup plan is okay, assuming you don't get hit by a sweeper. I feel its somewhat same as the angel and feeder combo. Maybe its in our place only and will not apply to all but most control decks here, packs drown in sorrow or anger of the gods or wrath of god main deck, sadly our deck forces use somewhat to over commit.
Anyways i've tested your logic on singleton resto angel, it was fine acts like a 2nd spellskite, i have a main deck linvala, i feel linvala is much more valuable over resto. As for the angel + spikefeeder combo i will admit that its slow so i might cut the 2 and replace them with maybe 2 resto angle but just maybe.., the thing i want with it is the instant win we get when your up against tons of flying spirit tokens, in which plain attacking will not cut it due to the sheer numbers of your opponents tokens.
hello aren't you having a hard time with your high curve ? didn't you find the angel of tune + feeder combo a better backup plan ?
Hello,
Im guessing you haven't played with your list if you had, im sure your struggling chopping off a forest or a plains. The first thing i did when i tried running KOTRs was to change my land config and increased my basics from 4 to 6 as your burn matchup will suffer with the increase amount of fetch. I will admit that the vault + kotr is really a strong aggro plan. But again KOTR suffers the same problem as your combo which is a turn 2 scooze by your opponent will give you headaches. Especially if you can't get a removal, thats why i prefer the backup plan of spikefeeder and angel of tune combo.
Run main deck linvala and pridemage, but yeah twin is a very hard matchup indeed
Hello,
Im guessing thats why you run 1 flickerwisp and 3 restoration angel as compared to a mix of 2 siege rhino 2 resto angel, is because you want the evasion ? and the flash is just a bonus. Its more logical to run them im not saying your wrong, i also like to change to creatures which has evasion. the problem i encounter if i run 4cc up creatures are that when you cast collected company they put them on the bottom of your library you almost never have a chance to cast them.
As for the singleton flickerwisp im guessing its common target is e.witness and pontif against token decks ?
how is running 2 witness ? and what do you normally get from witness collected ? chord ?
does the witness provide big impact or just minimal ? because in my experience my singleton witness is just fine, i feel running 2 might be too much
Running 3 gavony, have you tried out brimaz?, he is good when gavony is online, doesn't have evasion though.
Hello,
Same thing i have a hard time winning against them, the only time i won was via tune + spikefeeeder, in my whole playtest against jund i never had the chance to combo out due to scavenging ooze or i have a clear board bec of there removals.
Im testing a more aggroish version right now kinda similar to the list which runs 3 kotr and 1 vault of the archangel. i reduced the combo enablers to 3 of each expect for finks, and added muscle to the deck so far its doing ok, but im still not satisfied with it.
So far i found linvala to be a good 1 off main deck as it stops twin, mirror and other random decks. Mirran Crusaders are very very good against mirror or abzan. I found blood baron to be so so bec of his high casting cost before i could cast him it got discarded, but once you are able to resolve him, his as good as mirran aswell.
Hello,
I don't know how you do it, saying jund is an easy matchup or maybe the jund your facing is different from mine. Anyways, besides jund i find jeskai to be a very hard matchup. Maybe bec of your combo oriented list the redundancy is high enough so you could still combo out.
Typical jund i face runs: 2-3 thoughsize, 2-3 wrench mind, 2-3 drown in sorrow, 2-3 firespout, 4 bolts, 2-3 terminates, 3 liliana, several muderous cut, fulminator mages, etc., and i couldn't barely have a board against them, paired with ooze, even persist creatures can't do anything about it.
I tested rally the ancestors before and i must say yes its really good paired with grand abolisher, the problem is when ooze has eaten all your GY, it makes rally a subpar card. Another scenario is when you resolve a abolisher your opponent will just wait for his turn to eat all your gy.