Dark Ritual lets us power our commander out early.
Is Dark Rit really powerful enough in a multiplayer format like EDH? I know it has a high power level in 1v1, or in very early turns (generally 1 or 2), but doesn't it get outclassed by say Gilded Lotus really quick here? Or am I totally off base here razz?
EDIT:
Razz, how would you build Kothophed? In my eye, he's made for a stax-like build or just a removal heavy build, but what do you see building around him? Appreciate your time man!
I have a feeling that commander is potentially very strong, sort of Azami, Lady of Scrolls in card draw, and will draw a lot of hate. I would go for card advantage / heal back strategy and cut the "hard stax" pile for some good cards.
If we don't go the stax route, I'd first add some more big mana cards also:
to support your powerful card draw with enough mana to cast everything you draw.
Nirkana is a 2nd Crypt Ghast and I think we had her in the list at one point, but she was removed for other stax cards to get a list started. Is she worth another 6 drop spot? Not sure, as there are SO many good black six drops and Grave Titan isn't even in here.
I'm not a fan of Gauntlet of Power in any deck that wants Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth on the battlefield. I would really prefer to stay away from that one, but maybe others have a counterpoint there?
I like the big mana combined with reanimator approach. Maybe I'm biased since that's basically what my Chainer, Dementia Master deck was. I like Gauntlet and Nirkana as well, and it also adds to the need to streamline our utility lands to make sure we get a critical mass of swamps. I still like Entomb, Buried Alive, and Dismember (most of the targeted removal currently has a nonblack clause which is ever so annoying at times).
I think if we went the reanimator direction, Buried Alive and Entomb would 100% make the cut. That said, Kothophed certainly doesn't lean toward reanimator like Chainer does (I do love Chainer, don't get me wrong!), it really seems to want to force some sort of Stax or "Stax Lite" as the case may be. I just don't know what direction we're going. Honestly I don't know how exactly to decide that, since so many people helped build this deck, one person deciding the direction feels... wrong? Maybe I put up a poll? IDK...
As for Dismember, I think that Silence the Believers is probably better in a deck that already has life-loss issues, probably...? lol, but that's pre-testing, so a confident answer it is not. Regardless, what would you recommend cutting for the removal?
So, we probably need to decide finally, which direction are we going.
Stax is good, but it's always hard to determine, how many cards do you need to keep it going and not hurt yourself too much.
The light stax package is very good here imho and should stay no matter what:
My main concerns about stax strategies are two points:
1) if you aren't fast enough to build a stax machine and opponents play cards faster than you, you can end up hurting yourself more then them. Token decks don't care about stax after T3-T4 at all.
2) you sometimes provide your opponents a free sac engine for their Academy Rectors, Solemn Simulacrums, Mindslicers, False Prophets etc.
I also strongly believe that overcosted cards like Decree of Pain don't work with Stax strategy at all. Stax means you should play all the moxes you can (Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, whatever), play a T2 Smokestack and make sure you have something like a Bitterblossom to support the madness. If you feel more like play T6 commander pass turn sort of play, I think stax doesn't work anymore and should be (at least partly) removed.
Cheers
Nice breakdown, I like the Stax Lite vs Stax comparison too, thanks! So, do we think that MBC that uses some Stax Lite effects is our best bet? Or is true Stax where we want to be?
Hmm, I don't dislike either of these cards, but they don't really compete for Magus' slot here. It's an every upkeep trigger (usually a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 benefit) and generally provides long-term value. While I LOVE Barter in Blood (old time fav) and I think Languish (probably should be Damnation?) is solid, they really don't provide what Magus can. Thoughts?
Good news! The 99 has been assembled and the new thread to discuss the direction and cuts has been created here! Thank you all for your time and great suggestions!
Introduction
Recognize this thread? Good, you should! This deck was originally constructed here by your fellow MTGS Community. I first want to thank all of you that contributed to the original thread, I really appreciate all of the great conversation and ideas. Now that the 100 has been assembled, it's time to trim the fat and focus the deck. Many users felt that stax was the route to go with Kothophed, but a specific direction has not been established yet (so if there is another direction you would like to recommend, please do so). No card is "uncuttable" (spare Kothophed and probably Sol Ring ), don't hesitate to recommend cuts or additions. Thank you for your part in building the best Kothophed list we can!
I would like to thank all of those that helped build this deck on the original "Let's Build" thread (there are literally too many of you to name!), and I would especially like to thank osieorb18, whose Xiahou Dun Primer was a great source of information and an inspiration to this thread (plus he helped a ton on the original thread).
On another note, what do you think about the direction of this deck? Can this she'll support stax (as was previously mentioned)?
I think it would need to down-size and gain some focus before it went a stax route.
Yeah, I think we're all starting to see that. I wouldn't mind doing some of that trimming before we add even more fat... if anyone has ideas towards that end.
Ooh! The Archfiend looks great for stax, but it is another high mana cost creature in a deck that wants to put things in the yard. I'd like to know others thoughts on this.
Dropping Kothophed early with Ancient Tomb is still pretty dang worth it.
Yuup! An early advantage like that is certainly worth paying 2 life.
On another note, what do you think about the direction of this deck? Can this she'll support stax (as was previously mentioned)?
Not sure why nobody has suggested this, but clone lands like Thespian's Stage and Vesuva work amazingly with Cabal Coffers and your various utility land.
Good call, but boy there are a LOT of great non basics for us!
I know we aren't yet at 100 cards, but Terrain Generator is looking pretty weak with so many other utility lands. Swamps are important to have with Coffers, Crypt Ghast, and Mutilate. None of them kick in until you have 4+ swamps. Perhaps it helps with the Pox effects.
Speaking of lands, I noticed Expedition Map isn't in there yet. As far as I'm concerned that is a mono black staple artifact. It is going to find Coffers 90% of the time and if you already have coffers it gets Urborg or a way to recur Coffers (Petrified Field).
Continuing the rabbit hole...how about Crucible of Worlds. With 4 fetches in a mono color, plus the Pox and Smallpox it could be a reasonable include. Following that a little bit further what about Wasteland and Strip Mine.
I'm a bit leery of Pox. If we are including Pox and Smallpox, wouldn't we want Death Cloud? But then where is this deck heading? Full on stax? With a curve including 10 6+mana creatures (including the commander) and 5 other spells 6+...the deck will neuter itself with these effects. Something to consider as we start making cuts and focusing the deck.
Expedition Map! Of course! I do agree that the more non basic lands we add, the worse Terrain Generator gets. Strip Mine is probably a better choice at this point, and possibly Wasteland too.
I have actually thought a lot about Death Cloud and wondering if this should be in the deck. You are correct however, that we will have to make some cuts/changes once we get the 99, and yes it does seem that we're going the direction of Mono Black Stax.
As someone who only plays EDH, this is disappointing. That said, I can see this being played in Constructed Formats.
Every time they print a card that I think might be expensive and it's a total piece of ***** in EDH I don't get disappointed - I rejoice. This card doesn't have all the conditions most of the other versions of this card have, it's 3 mana, and it's super playable in a standard/modern. Thank god this is bad in EDH.
Is Dark Rit really powerful enough in a multiplayer format like EDH? I know it has a high power level in 1v1, or in very early turns (generally 1 or 2), but doesn't it get outclassed by say Gilded Lotus really quick here? Or am I totally off base here razz?
EDIT:
Razz, how would you build Kothophed? In my eye, he's made for a stax-like build or just a removal heavy build, but what do you see building around him? Appreciate your time man!
Nirkana is a 2nd Crypt Ghast and I think we had her in the list at one point, but she was removed for other stax cards to get a list started. Is she worth another 6 drop spot? Not sure, as there are SO many good black six drops and Grave Titan isn't even in here.
I'm not a fan of Gauntlet of Power in any deck that wants Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth on the battlefield. I would really prefer to stay away from that one, but maybe others have a counterpoint there?
I think if we went the reanimator direction, Buried Alive and Entomb would 100% make the cut. That said, Kothophed certainly doesn't lean toward reanimator like Chainer does (I do love Chainer, don't get me wrong!), it really seems to want to force some sort of Stax or "Stax Lite" as the case may be. I just don't know what direction we're going. Honestly I don't know how exactly to decide that, since so many people helped build this deck, one person deciding the direction feels... wrong? Maybe I put up a poll? IDK...
As for Dismember, I think that Silence the Believers is probably better in a deck that already has life-loss issues, probably...? lol, but that's pre-testing, so a confident answer it is not. Regardless, what would you recommend cutting for the removal?
Nice breakdown, I like the Stax Lite vs Stax comparison too, thanks! So, do we think that MBC that uses some Stax Lite effects is our best bet? Or is true Stax where we want to be?
Great recommendation! What would you suggest cutting for Contamination?
Hmm, I don't dislike either of these cards, but they don't really compete for Magus' slot here. It's an every upkeep trigger (usually a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 benefit) and generally provides long-term value. While I LOVE Barter in Blood (old time fav) and I think Languish (probably should be Damnation?) is solid, they really don't provide what Magus can. Thoughts?
Sincerely,
Jr.
Introduction
Recognize this thread? Good, you should! This deck was originally constructed here by your fellow MTGS Community. I first want to thank all of you that contributed to the original thread, I really appreciate all of the great conversation and ideas. Now that the 100 has been assembled, it's time to trim the fat and focus the deck. Many users felt that stax was the route to go with Kothophed, but a specific direction has not been established yet (so if there is another direction you would like to recommend, please do so). No card is "uncuttable" (spare Kothophed and probably Sol Ring ), don't hesitate to recommend cuts or additions. Thank you for your part in building the best Kothophed list we can!
Deck List
6 Kothophed, Soul Hoarder
Creature (27)
1 Viscera Seer
2 Blood Artist
2 Reassembling Skeleton
2 Bloodghast
2 Withered Wretch
3 Burnished Hart
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Merciless Executioner
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Magus of the Abyss
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Falkenrath Noble
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
5 Puppeteer Clique
5 Archfiend of Depravity
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
6 Duplicant
6 Harvester of Souls
6 Geth, Lord of the Vault
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
6 Massacre Wurm
7 Butcher of Malakir
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
7 Sheoldred, Whispering One
0 Slaughter Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Snuff Out
Sorcery (12)
1 Reanimate
1 Innocent Blood
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Exsanguinate
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Smallpox
3 Pox
3 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Mutilate
5 Living Death
7 All is Dust
8 Decree of Pain
10 Curse of the Cabal
Enchantment (7)
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Bitterblossom
2 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Grave Pact
Artifact (11)
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Expedition Map
2 Grim Monolith
3 Phyrexian Altar
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Smokestack
6 Caged Sun
7 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Temple of the False God
1 Deserted Temple
1 Strip Mine
1 Petrified Field
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vesuva
23 Swamp
Change Log
No changes yet!
Acknowledgements
I would like to thank all of those that helped build this deck on the original "Let's Build" thread (there are literally too many of you to name!), and I would especially like to thank osieorb18, whose Xiahou Dun Primer was a great source of information and an inspiration to this thread (plus he helped a ton on the original thread).
Yeah, I think we're all starting to see that. I wouldn't mind doing some of that trimming before we add even more fat... if anyone has ideas towards that end.
Ooh! The Archfiend looks great for stax, but it is another high mana cost creature in a deck that wants to put things in the yard. I'd like to know others thoughts on this.
Yuup! An early advantage like that is certainly worth paying 2 life.
On another note, what do you think about the direction of this deck? Can this she'll support stax (as was previously mentioned)?
Yuup... got me thinking of green EDH too.
Got it, wasn't sure if it was worth it here... guess so! I'll add it in along with Crucible of Worlds
Good call, but boy there are a LOT of great non basics for us!
Expedition Map! Of course! I do agree that the more non basic lands we add, the worse Terrain Generator gets. Strip Mine is probably a better choice at this point, and possibly Wasteland too.
I have actually thought a lot about Death Cloud and wondering if this should be in the deck. You are correct however, that we will have to make some cuts/changes once we get the 99, and yes it does seem that we're going the direction of Mono Black Stax.
Good point. I revise my previous position.