Why not play classic junk list? T1 discard t2 goyf, t3 lilly.. is so much stronger then t1 discard, t2 tidehollow t3 kitchen finks.
Because this deck is better against Burn and way better against Junk itself while having very similiar matchups against the rest of the meta.
Against what the play you described will be so much stronger? Not against Burn, Affinity, Tokens or Abzan Liege. It is also questionable against Junk. Against Twin, Liliana can win a game for sure. But so can a Smiter into a Liege after taking away two cards from their hand. That's 13 power on the board by turn 4 after disrupting them. The two decks play differently and the two decks will have strong plays. Also, Voice will be better than Goyf in some matchups.
I'd say you should give the deck a try. Even if you don't like it, you could come in here and say what went wrong. Saying you don't believe us will not lead to any constructive discussion.
Honestly, after playing Emracool's version i'm not even sure i'll rebuy Tarmogoyfs when MM2015 hits. Like someone already said, our multicolored dudes get so absurdly big that Goyfs are just not good enough for this deck. Not to mention that all of our creatures do something useful besides beating down. The deck crushes traditional Abzan while having the same good matchups. Sounds like a strict upgrade to me.
Also, unless they unban Deathrite Shaman, i don't see myself playing mana dorks anytime soon
This intrigues me. Does it have the same good and bad matchups as the Abzan Midrange lists? If this is the case, why is goyf and lily running all over the tournament scene? What is the difference?
People tend to think that you can't play BGx without Tarmogoyfs. If you posted Jacob Wilson's list in the BGx primer before he played it at the PT, people would tell you that your deck is terrible and that you should post on the budget forums without even giving it a try. But now that he proved the deck is strong, people will accept it and play it. Same is true for Gerrard's Sultai list.
There's nothing wrong with cutting Goyfs if they're not doing what we want our creatures to do. He's a hell of a card but he's just a dumb beater. And unlike traditional Abzan, we don't need that. We need utility creatures that can still be very aggressive. This deck fixed the original Abzan Liege's biggest flaw (lack of disruption and interaction) by sacrifing explosiveness (mana dorks) while still being able to put absurd amounts of pressure and punishing your opponents for playing discard effects.
As for Liliana of the Veil, i could see some sideboard slots for her if Scapeshift/Bogles were a big part of the meta. But since that is not the case, i guess we're just fine without her.
Also, we not only have the same Good matchups but we also have a much better Burn matchup. I haven't played against any Tron yet but the only matchup giving me problems right now is BW Tokens on game 1.
Thanks man made my week :). I agree. I would use the money towards buying the deck on MTGO so we can get it out there. I would but I don't have the money so I would love it if someone else did :).
No problem, man I'll consider doing that. I was also considering getting into Legacy but let's see!
Honestly, after playing Emracool's version i'm not even sure i'll rebuy Tarmogoyfs when MM2015 hits. Like someone already said, our multicolored dudes get so absurdly big that Goyfs are just not good enough for this deck. Not to mention that all of our creatures do something useful besides beating down. The deck crushes traditional Abzan while having the same good matchups. Sounds like a strict upgrade to me.
Also, unless they unban Deathrite Shaman, i don't see myself playing mana dorks anytime soon
Thanks for the report! I love how restoration angel did for you. Seems like an awesome replacement but I still like liege more as yyou need a clock against all of the decks you mentioned and it speeds up your clock so why not keep it up consistently? I highly suggest playing more as I noticed misplays that could have cost the match. The deck rewards you for your misplays being fixed highly.
Yep! I'll get the fourth Liege. Even though Resto is really good in this deck, i don't think we could cut anything.
Any ideal replacements for 1 of the Gavony Townships?
Vault of the Archangel is he other go-to utility land.
They both cost 5 to activate.
I haven't activated township once yet either, with all the 4 drops in the deck, it's better to slam a threat for next turn.
Lack of mana dorks and tokens makes it much less appealing as an immediate threat or overall game ender.
I wouldn't wan to replace 1 of the townships with a tapland though, as this deck usually wants to curve pretty well.
I tend to think the same. The one card that underperformed for me was Township. It is good when you're ahead or when the board is stalled. But it doesn't do much if you're behind on board. And as you mentioned, we lack all those 0/1's to make Township better.
Vault might be better as it gives us the ability to race even if we're behind. Maybe a 1/1 split is correct.
Hey guys Just a quick report on my results playing Emracool's list. The only change was a single Restoration Angel replacing a Wilt-Leaf Liege because i still don't have the full playset.
Went 5-0 at a local tournament.
Match 1: UWR control 2-0
Game 1: I was on the draw here. Started on turn one Inquisition of Kozilek taking a Remand into turn two Tidehollow Sculler Taking a Lightning Bolt, leaving him with a Supreme Verdict, a Path to Exile and some lands in hand. I wanted him to Path the Sculler here so i could stick a Loxodon Smiter and force his wrath. And that's how it played out. He took a couple hits from the elephant before wrathing because i didn't play anything else. After that, i just went Thoughtseize into Siege Rhino and he scooped.
Game 2: Was even faster. He mulled to 6 and got Thoughtseize'd on turn 1, revealing a Path to Exile, an Electrolyze and some lands. I took his Path and he just couldn't handle a Smiter into a Liege. He drew very poorly this game but i feel like this deck has enough disruption to make this matchup very favorable.
Match 2: Orzhov Tokens with a splash for Abrupt Decay. 2-1
Game 2: I almost lost this one I had no idea until now that he had green on his deck. He played very smart on game 1 by not showing me any green lands or Decays. This time i was on the play and had disruption though. My turn one Inquisition of Kozilek revealed me a very redundant hand. He had two Spectral Procession (which i couldn't take), two Anthems and some lands. I remember he started flooding the board with tokens and i made a very bad misplay that almost costed me the match. I tapped out for a Siege Rhino and played a Engineered Explosives for 0. He then finally showed me his splash, as he fetched for a Temple Garden and quickly Abrupt Decay'd the Explosives EOT. He had 6 2/2 fliers at this point. But luckily i drew another Explosives the folliwing turn for the win, lol.
Game 3: This game wasn't as exciting. I did mulligan to 6 but he mulled to oblivion. I Thoughtseize'd a Path to Exile turn one and basically goldfished for the rest of the game. Despite his bad luck on game 3, this match was the hardest for the night. And the only match i actually missed having Maelstrom Pulse. Also, he went 4-1 for the night.
Match 3: Burn 2-0
Game 1: As usual, he starts with a Goblin Guide followed by non-interaction, lol. This was basically me trying to survive until i can drop a Siege Rhino. I had some disruption followed by a Kitchen Finks to hold off his creatures and then finally dropped a Siege Rhino while he drew too many lands.
Game 2: Same old Burn start but this time he had more action. I was at 4 life when i could finally resolve a Siege Rhino around his Skullcrack. He then just draws and pass. By this time, i knew he was about to get blown out so i just pass back. He then slams a land, drop a Guide and attacks into the Rhino. As i declare blockers, he just plays a Searing Blaze. I then show him a Restoration Angel. He says "Goddamn" and scoops, rofl.
Match 4: Junk (Traditional) 2-1
Game 1: This game was easy. We kept trading one for one until he just couldn't handle a Siege Rhino plus a Wilt-Leaf Liege. Nothing much to say about this game. This deck is basically tailored to beat Junk. While we just Decay his Goys and Oozes, he just gets 2-for-1'd by our Voices and Kitchen Finks. The only real potentially problematic card in game one is Lingering Souls.
Game 2: Well, it is embarassing when you lose a game against the deck you are supposed to crush Everything was going as usual this game until he slammed a Blood Baron of Vizkopa. That's when i realized we don't have anything to deal with this guy. My only real hope was to make a big Scavenging Ooze but they can get rid of it pretty easily. I just couldn't beat that card.
Game 3: I set up for a longer game by taking away cards like Thrun, the last Troll and the dreaded Blood Baron with my early disruption (I had sided out discard and 2 Scullers for game two but i brought Thoughtseizes back because of Blood Barons). I left him with his removal spells because i wanted him to waste them on stuff like Voice, Sculler or Finks while answering his Tarmogoyfs and Siege Rhinos as usual. Everything worked as intended.
Match 5: RUG Twin 2-0
Game 1: I feel like this matchup is easier than UR Twin. Tarmogoyf is just not that good against our dudes. Also, they don't usually run Blood Moon, which is good for us. This game felt really really easy. I took his counters away from his hand leaving him with his Goyfs. All i had to do was hold them back a little bit with Voices until i could drop a Liege followed by a 6/6 Elephant while keeping Abrupt Decay mana up for potential combo attempts. Nothing much to say here. They have too many cards that are bad against us.
Game 2: Inquisition away his Remand, Sculler away his Lightning Bolt and a second Inquisiton takes care of a Snapcaster Mage, with Combo pieces nowhere to be seen. At this point i was almost sure he had sided out the combo entirely, but i still played safe. He did had a Flame Slash in hand which i wanted him to use on Sculler so i could stick a Liege. But he played well and waited until he had Mana Leak up. At this point he started beating me down with Goyf and even resolved a Keranos, god of Storms, leaving three mana up. As i kept drawing into lands, i was pretty sure i was going to lose this time. All i had was a Resto in hand waiting to get some value. I finally drew into a Siege Rhino and played it. He then plays a Pestermite EOT, tapping my Rhino and putting me dead to a Keranos trigger + attacks since Goyf was a 5/6 and i tapped wrong for Rhino and didn't left Wildwood up (i was so sleepy don't judge me, lol). Needless to say, Restoration Angel saves the night here. I had exactly eight lands on the battlefield so i just flashed it in after Pestermite trigger resolves. After that i even drew into a Liege and all he had was stuff like Spell Snare and Mana Leak. I was lucky though. Keranos kept revealing lands and drawing into blanks, which gave me enough time to finish the game.
Some sidenotes:
- In general, the deck felt really solid with only a few minor mana issues.
- My sideboard decisions throughout the tournament were pretty much as Emracool suggested in the primer. With the only exeption being on the Junk matchup where i brought discard back in to deal with Blood Baron of Vizkopa, as it felt like the card was almost unbeatable for me.
- I liked Restoration Angel the few times it showed up, but i will try the fourth Liege as soon as i get one.
I just recently sold my Tarmogoyfs and was looking for a deck to play until MM2015 hits. I usually don't like playing with mana dorks so i gave Emracool's list a shot. And oh, man That deck is sweeet! I went undefeated in a small 5-round tournament at my LGS.
The only thing i had to cut was a Wilt-leaf Liege. Simply because i don't own any and i couldn't find anyone who had a playset and wasn't already using it, so i replaced it with a Restoration Angel. How did you came up with this list? I was really skeptical about Tidehollow Sculler but i really like them now. Dude is just annoyance incarnate, lol.
Edit: He also said:
Because this deck is better against Burn and way better against Junk itself while having very similiar matchups against the rest of the meta.
Against what the play you described will be so much stronger? Not against Burn, Affinity, Tokens or Abzan Liege. It is also questionable against Junk. Against Twin, Liliana can win a game for sure. But so can a Smiter into a Liege after taking away two cards from their hand. That's 13 power on the board by turn 4 after disrupting them. The two decks play differently and the two decks will have strong plays. Also, Voice will be better than Goyf in some matchups.
I'd say you should give the deck a try. Even if you don't like it, you could come in here and say what went wrong. Saying you don't believe us will not lead to any constructive discussion.
People tend to think that you can't play BGx without Tarmogoyfs. If you posted Jacob Wilson's list in the BGx primer before he played it at the PT, people would tell you that your deck is terrible and that you should post on the budget forums without even giving it a try. But now that he proved the deck is strong, people will accept it and play it. Same is true for Gerrard's Sultai list.
There's nothing wrong with cutting Goyfs if they're not doing what we want our creatures to do. He's a hell of a card but he's just a dumb beater. And unlike traditional Abzan, we don't need that. We need utility creatures that can still be very aggressive. This deck fixed the original Abzan Liege's biggest flaw (lack of disruption and interaction) by sacrifing explosiveness (mana dorks) while still being able to put absurd amounts of pressure and punishing your opponents for playing discard effects.
As for Liliana of the Veil, i could see some sideboard slots for her if Scapeshift/Bogles were a big part of the meta. But since that is not the case, i guess we're just fine without her.
Also, we not only have the same Good matchups but we also have a much better Burn matchup. I haven't played against any Tron yet but the only matchup giving me problems right now is BW Tokens on game 1.
No problem, man
Also, unless they unban Deathrite Shaman, i don't see myself playing mana dorks anytime soon
Yep! I'll get the fourth Liege. Even though Resto is really good in this deck, i don't think we could cut anything.
I tend to think the same. The one card that underperformed for me was Township. It is good when you're ahead or when the board is stalled. But it doesn't do much if you're behind on board. And as you mentioned, we lack all those 0/1's to make Township better.
Vault might be better as it gives us the ability to race even if we're behind. Maybe a 1/1 split is correct.
Went 5-0 at a local tournament.
Match 1: UWR control 2-0
Game 1: I was on the draw here. Started on turn one Inquisition of Kozilek taking a Remand into turn two Tidehollow Sculler Taking a Lightning Bolt, leaving him with a Supreme Verdict, a Path to Exile and some lands in hand. I wanted him to Path the Sculler here so i could stick a Loxodon Smiter and force his wrath. And that's how it played out. He took a couple hits from the elephant before wrathing because i didn't play anything else. After that, i just went Thoughtseize into Siege Rhino and he scooped.
Game 2: Was even faster. He mulled to 6 and got Thoughtseize'd on turn 1, revealing a Path to Exile, an Electrolyze and some lands. I took his Path and he just couldn't handle a Smiter into a Liege. He drew very poorly this game but i feel like this deck has enough disruption to make this matchup very favorable.
Match 2: Orzhov Tokens with a splash for Abrupt Decay. 2-1
Game 1: I got stomped here, lol. My start was a bit slow and without disruption. I went tap land into Voice into Smiter (i was on the draw). He went turn one Thoughtseize my own Thoughtseize into turn two Inquisition of Kozilek my Abrupt Decay. He then casted Spectral Processtion into Intangible Virtue into Sorin, solemn Visitor. It was just too much to deal with. He even has a Path for my Rhino.
Game 2: I almost lost this one
Game 3: This game wasn't as exciting. I did mulligan to 6 but he mulled to oblivion. I Thoughtseize'd a Path to Exile turn one and basically goldfished for the rest of the game. Despite his bad luck on game 3, this match was the hardest for the night. And the only match i actually missed having Maelstrom Pulse. Also, he went 4-1 for the night.
Match 3: Burn 2-0
Game 1: As usual, he starts with a Goblin Guide followed by non-interaction, lol. This was basically me trying to survive until i can drop a Siege Rhino. I had some disruption followed by a Kitchen Finks to hold off his creatures and then finally dropped a Siege Rhino while he drew too many lands.
Game 2: Same old Burn start but this time he had more action. I was at 4 life when i could finally resolve a Siege Rhino around his Skullcrack. He then just draws and pass. By this time, i knew he was about to get blown out so i just pass back. He then slams a land, drop a Guide and attacks into the Rhino. As i declare blockers, he just plays a Searing Blaze. I then show him a Restoration Angel. He says "Goddamn" and scoops, rofl.
Match 4: Junk (Traditional) 2-1
Game 1: This game was easy. We kept trading one for one until he just couldn't handle a Siege Rhino plus a Wilt-Leaf Liege. Nothing much to say about this game. This deck is basically tailored to beat Junk. While we just Decay his Goys and Oozes, he just gets 2-for-1'd by our Voices and Kitchen Finks. The only real potentially problematic card in game one is Lingering Souls.
Game 2: Well, it is embarassing when you lose a game against the deck you are supposed to crush
Game 3: I set up for a longer game by taking away cards like Thrun, the last Troll and the dreaded Blood Baron with my early disruption (I had sided out discard and 2 Scullers for game two but i brought Thoughtseizes back because of Blood Barons). I left him with his removal spells because i wanted him to waste them on stuff like Voice, Sculler or Finks while answering his Tarmogoyfs and Siege Rhinos as usual. Everything worked as intended.
Match 5: RUG Twin 2-0
Game 1: I feel like this matchup is easier than UR Twin. Tarmogoyf is just not that good against our dudes. Also, they don't usually run Blood Moon, which is good for us. This game felt really really easy. I took his counters away from his hand leaving him with his Goyfs. All i had to do was hold them back a little bit with Voices until i could drop a Liege followed by a 6/6 Elephant while keeping Abrupt Decay mana up for potential combo attempts. Nothing much to say here. They have too many cards that are bad against us.
Game 2: Inquisition away his Remand, Sculler away his Lightning Bolt and a second Inquisiton takes care of a Snapcaster Mage, with Combo pieces nowhere to be seen. At this point i was almost sure he had sided out the combo entirely, but i still played safe. He did had a Flame Slash in hand which i wanted him to use on Sculler so i could stick a Liege. But he played well and waited until he had Mana Leak up. At this point he started beating me down with Goyf and even resolved a Keranos, god of Storms, leaving three mana up. As i kept drawing into lands, i was pretty sure i was going to lose this time. All i had was a Resto in hand waiting to get some value. I finally drew into a Siege Rhino and played it. He then plays a Pestermite EOT, tapping my Rhino and putting me dead to a Keranos trigger + attacks since Goyf was a 5/6 and i tapped wrong for Rhino and didn't left Wildwood up (i was so sleepy don't judge me, lol). Needless to say, Restoration Angel saves the night here. I had exactly eight lands on the battlefield so i just flashed it in after Pestermite trigger resolves. After that i even drew into a Liege and all he had was stuff like Spell Snare and Mana Leak. I was lucky though. Keranos kept revealing lands and drawing into blanks, which gave me enough time to finish the game.
Some sidenotes:
- In general, the deck felt really solid with only a few minor mana issues.
- My sideboard decisions throughout the tournament were pretty much as Emracool suggested in the primer. With the only exeption being on the Junk matchup where i brought discard back in to deal with Blood Baron of Vizkopa, as it felt like the card was almost unbeatable for me.
- I liked Restoration Angel the few times it showed up, but i will try the fourth Liege as soon as i get one.
- I didn't activate Gavony Township a single time.
- I was really sleepy and made some misplays, lol. But i was lucky enough for them not to matter.
- I will definitely play this deck more
Cheers!
The only thing i had to cut was a Wilt-leaf Liege. Simply because i don't own any and i couldn't find anyone who had a playset and wasn't already using it, so i replaced it with a Restoration Angel. How did you came up with this list? I was really skeptical about Tidehollow Sculler but i really like them now. Dude is just annoyance incarnate, lol.
Either that or 1 CMC Selesnya hibrid mana
But yeah, it is very hard to imagine a playable 6 CMC spell in modern that doesn't win the game on the spot...