He probably meant that blue already has enough tools now that Jace got printed.
Just because your color isn't far and away the best color in the format doesn't mean it sucks. Blue has a ton of the best spells and synergies in the format along with the best aggressive build, and some of the absolute best cards available. And you still aren't satisfied? Please, give me a freaking break.
Hey guys,
I'm going to start building towards an abzan midrange list since I have most of the cards except for the Lilianas, Goyfs and half of the fetches. The list I've settled on is very much towards the controly side of the spectrum. (list here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/spicey-rhino/)
So what do you guys think of this list in general, and what about maybe squeezing a 2-of Aven Mindcensor into this list? Or perhaps Zombie Fishes instead of Tasigurs. I think Tasigur buyback will actually be useful in this deck, but I'd love to hear what you all think.
EDIT: Also, what about cutting a Liliana and another card for a Bitterblossom and A Sorin, Solemn Visitor?
EDIT2: What about the card Painful Truths? Good enough to be worthy of a slot?
I really like that list. Looks pretty well rounded. I really like running 10 removal spells and even though i don't like Voice of Resurgence that much in this deck, some people certainly had success doing so. I also used to run a single Sorin, Solemn Visitor, but i'm now trying out a Gideon Jura instead. I don't know if cutting a Liliana of the Veil for another Sorin is correct though. It could work if you're running some number of Bitterblossom, but i really wouldn't know what to cut in this case.
As for Tasigur, the Golden fang, i think he fits better our game plan than Gurmag Angler. Being a little easier to cast and having a card advantage engine is probably better than +1 power, in my opinion. I never really tried Aven Mindcensor. I can see it being decent in some matchups, but i really don't know
Painful Truths is amazing. I'm really impressed with this card after trying it out. It almost fells like a fixed version of Treasure Cruise. Very very good aginst people trying to outgrind you.
I agree that this is clearly the objective truth. Though, I believe (and this is stricly my opinion) that SFM will practically reduce it as well. The reason and the argument is that she is going to exist mainly(hatebears is the obvious exception) in splash white decks(such as Abzan/Jeskai) and there wont be a reason really to play Grixis for example. In addition, the Hatebears player may even think "why just not play Abzan"?
Well, I think some may do.
This is very hard to predict unfortunately. Decks like Abzan and Jeskai would most certainly become more common and maybe that would be a very good reason to play Grixis, since k-command would be even more powerful. We'd have to wait and see how the meta adapts. Some decks will always be better positioned in the meta. Right now the Jeskai players are thinking "why just not play Grixis?" and the Abzan players "why not just play Jund?". I know we're talking about players switching archtypes, but that's part of the meta too.
I think the format has the tools to deal with her just fine and i feel that her presence in the meta would only punish decks that are not interacting, which may be a good thing but i'm not certain yet. So yeah, i really have mixed feelings when talking about unbbaning her, but i think it will not happen.
In case it does happen, the PT meta would probably be a mess and people would go nuts (like when some dudes wanted Siege Rhino banned, lol). Some pros would probably be butthurt because they aren't allowed to play their busted blue cards and have to think about Blood Moon *cough*PV*cough*. But what would really be the worst case scenario? A Batterskull ban? I don't know but the meta would certainly adapt. It's a shame we can't properly test this. So, for now, maybe she should stay banned.
I'm hoping 2x EE is enough to combat Merfolk, Elves and Zoo post SB as I have been struggling with these match ups. My only problem is that this SB loses game against other SB decks as Fulminator Mages and the second sweeper were usually filled in.
I placed two Feed the Clan in the SB as I start to prepare for a GP I'll be attending and believe that dedicated SB slots are necessary to solidify the match up.
I'm also having trouble on those matchups. Merfolk in particular is giving a lot of problems. The other aggro matchups are also hard, but at least they are not trying to mana screw us and get card advantage in the process. I've been trying Dromoka's Command lately with relative success. I needed a way to deal with Spreading Seas without being down a card so the idea popped. It's also a 2-for-1 against burn sometimes which is nice. You just have to be careful not to get blown out by removal when using the fight mode
I'm running 2x Nihil Spellbomb as my grave hate and only a single Feed the Clan to add 2x Dromoka's Command. But other than that, my current sideboard is almost the same as yours. I also dropped Fulminator Mage because, in my opinion, it's not worth it. We'll lose to Tron anyways.
This deck is missing Innocent Blood and Vindicate. I was so excited when they spoiled Utter End, but that ended up being not good enough.
I'm currently playing Junk but Deadguy Ale will always be a pet deck for me, so i'm always testing some builds even though i don't post in here very often. I recently started trying Hangarback Walker. This card is really great on grindy matchups, but it is kinda slow sometimes. The one card that i'm really starting to like is Elspeth, knight-errant. She can close up games so fast against decks like Jund and she is hard to deal with as well. And as someone already mentioned, she also plays really well with Shambling Vent.
I wish we had another strong 2-drop! Pack Rat is good but really clunky sometimes Especially when i'm used to casting Tarmogoyf on turn 2, haha. I tried Seeker of the Way for some time, but i felt it was too weak. Too bad we can't have Stoneforge Mystic
Nice to see other Abzan users with Bobs on their decks!
Still a bit frustrated with my mana base coz it really hurts especially when I am up against Burn. Also having a bit difficulty against Grixis delver decks (Angler and Tasigur on turn 2 or 3 really hurts). Regarding my deck, I am planning to split bobs and scavenging ooze to both 3 a piece. Also want to change my discard suite to 2 of each (thoughtseize, IOK and duress) and make my 4th Liliana into a Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Flex spots on my SB includes Illness in the Ranks and a few Feed the Clans. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Our meta usually includes RG Tron, BGx, Grixis Delver/Twin, 3 Color Burn and other Twin Variants.
Yeah, you really don't need to build around Percy. The average deck runs 8-16 ways to kill him when he's done his damage and each of those cards is usefull even when you don't draw Percy and are winning with Rat tokens instead.
Don't make the mistake to think he's not entirely under your control, leave that to your opponents, it'll cost them the game.
Blinking with restoration with your oponent at -20 life dont cause you to win the game, I already looked for that rules =P
My bad then! That really sucks
So you guys have been cutting Baneslayer/Brimaz for Percy? This deck is an old favorite of mine, but the last time i played it competitively was back when Craig Wescoe wrote that article. I was also running a single Phyrexian Arena.
I'm trying the Ray Wee GP Singapore list tonight, will let you know how it goes. Anyone think the mana base is correct? I'm tempted to cut a charm for a 25th land (a verdant).
I too was wondering about that manabase. I can find no reason not to include Verdant Catacombs in the list. I am trying out a similar build (but keeping the Liliana of the Veils). This is the mana base I came up with:
Its tough to say if its all on purpose, or he just can't afford the liliana's/verdants after he bought goyfs and had a great run. When building Jund I didn't realized how much that deck is BRg over Junks BGw, this Wee list really is BWg by comparison, so prioritizing flats at least makes sense. In generally I've really felt the pain of the manlands coming into play tapped. I've really wanted to turn 1 discard into goyf lately on the play and the draw and a lot of hands are just too slow when you have a tapland first and 24 lands. I can see a 1/1 split of manlands. If you're going to introduce lily, heaths make sense, but I'd still only consider 2 swamps rather than three. I like the thickets however, turn 1 fetch into swamp into discard, turn 2 verge into goyf is just the right amount of land damage, but without the high risk of drawing them too late and cutting you off from casting your rhinos. I just wish there was a GB fastland.
I think I will cut a charm for a verdant before I play. I also only have 1 thrun, what should I replace it with? probably a second thragtusk unless I can find one or pick another hate card. I cut scooze again for leylines of the void.
I did take the list for a spin yesterday for a single match and in game 1 I was sitting there with only three lands on turn 15 obviously losing me the game. Second game wasn't much better where I also missed land drops.
Sure variance is a thing and the first game was definitely a prime example of that but with such a high curve like this deck has I would seriously consider 25 lands. You want to hit 4-5 mana regularly and consistently to deploy your stuff. Betting on wrathing the board only to not hit your 4th land in time just sucks.
I can understand the rationale for not playing Liliana in that list. Since you run so much higher costed spells Lilianas +1 puts you actually in an awkward spot. You don't really want to discard spells and threats that you could still need but discarding lands also sucks since that sets you back from being able to play Sigarda, Host of Herons or Thragtusk.
And of course there is also the strain on the mana base with multiple double white spells being present that other Abzan lists don't have.
I think the main problem with this type of deck in our colors is that we don't have all those tools that blue has. The Visions/Snap/Remand/Electrolyze/Command package is what ensures land drops and keep cards flowing while interacting. I guess that's the reasoning behind running Abzan Charm. Maybe this is the kind of deck that would benefit from stuff like Courser of Kruphix and/or Phyrexian Arena? Sounds really slow though... But yeah, i could totally see this deck running 25 lands.
Completed a list (minus a few sideboard cards) that I plan on trying out soon. Looks good on paper but I have concerns with BB and the singleton abzan charm. Doesn't seem like BB adds a whole lot to the deck for most match ups...but I want to see for myself. I don't really want to play lingering souls or any other 3 cmc card. I want to be more efficient than my previous iterations.
what percy and bone splinters are you talking about?
Percy = Abyssal Persecutor
And Bone Splinters as the means to sacrifice it.
Btw, what do you guys think of the newly spoiled Erebos' Titan? It's almost a vanilla 5/5 for 4 but I quite like the possibility of recursion - especially if you play Jotun Grunt.
As for Erebos' Titan, i almost like him. Triple black is kinda rough, tough. I feel like if we'd play that we'd might play Phyrexian Obliterator instead. But i could be wrong.
According to the data we are favored against burn and even (51%) against affinity, contrary to the matchup-info in the primer here.
Does the data agree with your experience with these matchups?
At least from what i experienced, we definitely don't have an edge against Burn... I think the matchup analysis from Modern Nexus is more accurate.
Hehe
I really like that list. Looks pretty well rounded. I really like running 10 removal spells and even though i don't like Voice of Resurgence that much in this deck, some people certainly had success doing so. I also used to run a single Sorin, Solemn Visitor, but i'm now trying out a Gideon Jura instead. I don't know if cutting a Liliana of the Veil for another Sorin is correct though. It could work if you're running some number of Bitterblossom, but i really wouldn't know what to cut in this case.
As for Tasigur, the Golden fang, i think he fits better our game plan than Gurmag Angler. Being a little easier to cast and having a card advantage engine is probably better than +1 power, in my opinion. I never really tried Aven Mindcensor. I can see it being decent in some matchups, but i really don't know
Painful Truths is amazing. I'm really impressed with this card after trying it out. It almost fells like a fixed version of Treasure Cruise. Very very good aginst people trying to outgrind you.
Nice report! Thanks!
Really interested in your list. Is it the Dark Confidant version? Or just no Siege rhino?
This is very hard to predict unfortunately. Decks like Abzan and Jeskai would most certainly become more common and maybe that would be a very good reason to play Grixis, since k-command would be even more powerful. We'd have to wait and see how the meta adapts. Some decks will always be better positioned in the meta. Right now the Jeskai players are thinking "why just not play Grixis?" and the Abzan players "why not just play Jund?". I know we're talking about players switching archtypes, but that's part of the meta too.
I think the format has the tools to deal with her just fine and i feel that her presence in the meta would only punish decks that are not interacting, which may be a good thing but i'm not certain yet. So yeah, i really have mixed feelings when talking about unbbaning her, but i think it will not happen.
In case it does happen, the PT meta would probably be a mess and people would go nuts (like when some dudes wanted Siege Rhino banned, lol). Some pros would probably be butthurt because they aren't allowed to play their busted blue cards and have to think about Blood Moon *cough*PV*cough*. But what would really be the worst case scenario? A Batterskull ban? I don't know but the meta would certainly adapt. It's a shame we can't properly test this. So, for now, maybe she should stay banned.
I'm also having trouble on those matchups. Merfolk in particular is giving a lot of problems. The other aggro matchups are also hard, but at least they are not trying to mana screw us and get card advantage in the process. I've been trying Dromoka's Command lately with relative success. I needed a way to deal with Spreading Seas without being down a card so the idea popped. It's also a 2-for-1 against burn sometimes which is nice. You just have to be careful not to get blown out by removal when using the fight mode
I'm running 2x Nihil Spellbomb as my grave hate and only a single Feed the Clan to add 2x Dromoka's Command. But other than that, my current sideboard is almost the same as yours. I also dropped Fulminator Mage because, in my opinion, it's not worth it. We'll lose to Tron anyways.
I'm currently playing Junk but Deadguy Ale will always be a pet deck for me, so i'm always testing some builds even though i don't post in here very often. I recently started trying Hangarback Walker. This card is really great on grindy matchups, but it is kinda slow sometimes. The one card that i'm really starting to like is Elspeth, knight-errant. She can close up games so fast against decks like Jund and she is hard to deal with as well. And as someone already mentioned, she also plays really well with Shambling Vent.
I wish we had another strong 2-drop! Pack Rat is good but really clunky sometimes Especially when i'm used to casting Tarmogoyf on turn 2, haha. I tried Seeker of the Way for some time, but i felt it was too weak. Too bad we can't have Stoneforge Mystic
I'm also glad to see other people using Bob
I'm currently running a playset. I went down to 2 Rhinos, though. I'm also running a single Tasigur. Bob revelead him only once so far...
Gaze of Granite is interesting. How are you liking it so far?
Yep! I was referring to Altar's Reap and Rite of Consumption! This guy is scary
My bad then! That really sucks
So you guys have been cutting Baneslayer/Brimaz for Percy? This deck is an old favorite of mine, but the last time i played it competitively was back when Craig Wescoe wrote that article. I was also running a single Phyrexian Arena.
I think the main problem with this type of deck in our colors is that we don't have all those tools that blue has. The Visions/Snap/Remand/Electrolyze/Command package is what ensures land drops and keep cards flowing while interacting. I guess that's the reasoning behind running Abzan Charm. Maybe this is the kind of deck that would benefit from stuff like Courser of Kruphix and/or Phyrexian Arena? Sounds really slow though... But yeah, i could totally see this deck running 25 lands.
Let us know about your results! Abzan Charm and Bitterblossom have both been on my radar for a while now.
I tried Rite of Consumption and Altar's Reap with Abyssal Persecutor in the past and it was pretty fun But this would require the deck to be built around. We can also blink Percy with Restoration Angel once our opponent hits zero or less life!
As for Erebos' Titan, i almost like him. Triple black is kinda rough, tough. I feel like if we'd play that we'd might play Phyrexian Obliterator instead. But i could be wrong.
I'm from the "ban nothing, unban everything" team
At least from what i experienced, we definitely don't have an edge against Burn... I think the matchup analysis from Modern Nexus is more accurate.