Got any pointers for playing against combo decks? I assume its about knowing what to put Chalice on at the right time? I went to Regionals in Raleigh and it was infested with Burn and Combo so I just don't think I can play Bant Eldrazi anymore (my brother and I went a combined 3-6 with it...).
Burn I would put chalice on 1, side out dismember for spatial.
Combo, is a bit more situational. Cheeri0s I'd move in Ratchet bomb, spatial. Put a chalice on 0 to shut off paladin, and if I can get a chalice on 2 also. That would shut down the most commonly run answers to chalice.
If I'm on the play very ad nauseum, drop chalice on 0 to shut off lotus if they suspend them t1. If I'm on the draw then put it on 1 for angels grace, or the one 1-drop black version of ad nauseum. Chalice on 1 also shuts off their card selection. Removal is bad. Ratchet bomb comes in for phyrexian life. Remember tha pithing needle doesn't work on lotus bloom. And I'll probably side out the last dismember for a spatial contortion for the fringe benefit of using it on a TKS or smasher to close the game.
I could be wrong, because I'm rusty with the build and only started playing with it again just a couple days ago. But that's where I'd start.
Relic comes in against grishoal. Titan breach/shift I'll mulligan to GQ and anot aggro hand to try to win the race.
JW were either of these posts directed at me?
I was just answering the question? The question didn't seem directed at any one person...
Burn I would put chalice on 1, side out dismember for spatial.
Combo, is a bit more situational. Cheeri0s I'd move in Ratchet bomb, spatial. Put a chalice on 0 to shut off paladin, and if I can get a chalice on 2 also. That would shut down the most commonly run answers to chalice.
If I'm on the play very ad nauseum, drop chalice on 0 to shut off lotus if they suspend them t1. If I'm on the draw then put it on 1 for angels grace, or the one 1-drop black version of ad nauseum. Chalice on 1 also shuts off their card selection. Removal is bad. Ratchet bomb comes in for phyrexian life. Remember tha pithing needle doesn't work on lotus bloom. And I'll probably side out the last dismember for a spatial contortion for the fringe benefit of using it on a TKS or smasher to close the game.
I could be wrong, because I'm rusty with the build and only started playing with it again just a couple days ago. But that's where I'd start.
Relic comes in against grishoal. Titan breach/shift I'll mulligan to GQ and anot aggro hand to try to win the race.
Someone brought this up on /r/modernmagic: why don't we try twisted image as an alternative win con against GBx type decks. I remember more than one instance in which I was facing a lone liliana on 1 when I drop a paladin and equip everything.
It might be 'cute', but I'm curious if anyone has tried this?
Thanks for the reports! Regarding Ghost Quarters in the side, I've found that they are invaluable against Tron. Dig heavily until I hit one of those and a life from the loam. Then apply a fair bit of pressure while keeping them off of Tron. Takes some luck, and a lot of reminding myself that my primary goal is keeping them off tron and not setting up the win for next turn, but they make Tron feel winnable in a post-GGT world.
With the rise of cheeri0s, I bet this deck will get an even greater lease on life with holding main board chalice. Cheeri0s often relies on no sideboard tech game 1 to stealing the win. Chalice is one of the more scary cards for that deck as well.
So yeah, loving this idea right now. And thanks Ashton Kutcher for keeping this thread alive. (Side note, are you Jordan from modernnexus?)
Thanks Sheridan, as always for the write up. And thanks Zac for all the effort and the sideboarding guide. I studied it heavily mid way through today. I was able to make it to GP San Diego for the final day just to play in some side events. Each one was 4 round swiss. Records were 2-1-1 (4th round was intentional draw to split prizes), and 2-2.
My list is virtually the same as Sheridan's list above, however in place of Sacred Foundry I'm stealing a page from zac's book and running a horizon canopy. Part of the reason for that is because I'm travelling, and I don't have a sacred foundry with me.
First set of matches:
Round 1 - Mardu Midrange, AKA removal.dec. Needless to say this didn't go so great. G1 every engine I landed just died. G2 I mulligan to 5 to find an engine but no silence. He know's better than to tap out, and my life totaly dwindles while trying to find the silence. SB +4 Silence, -1 Noxious Revival, -1 Slight of Hand, -2 Serum Visions
0-1
Round 2 - Bubble hulk. We're both on fairly non-interactive combo decks. G1 I go off T2. G2 he goes off on T5, G3 I mull to 5 he mulls to 4, I keep a 1 lander wish Serum Visions, 2 engines, and an equipment. I eventually find my second land, play Sram, pass. He's still on 1 land trying to get enough cards in hand to discard hulk to go off. I land the second engine the next turn and go off on like turn 7.
SB: Silence + 3. -1 NR, -1 Sleight, -1 serum
1-1
Round 3 - Affinity. G1 I win on T3. G2 he wins very quickly with multiple steel overseers and a couple airborne beaters (I have no net). G3 was interesting, and really grindy. Eventually he gets me to 3, because he didn't want to go all in thinking that I was holding up removal. I don't have removal, but he didn't know that. At 3 life, I end step NR for retract and go off.
2-1
SB: Echoing Truth +4 in game 1. -2 serum, -1 NR, -1 sleight. I did this since he lead on basic mountain and I thought that blood moon would happen. G3, I put in forge-tender in place of 2 truths. I don't see any of them in games 2 or 3.
Round 4- Burn. Intentional draw before the game started but we played anyway. I didn't mulligan aggressively becuause I didn't take the games we played for fun after very seriously so I won't comment too much. He draws his whole sideboard in game 2. I don't see mine.
2-1-1
Second tourney:
Round 1 - Jund; Unremarkable losses here. I quickly go 0-2. Able to hard cast leyline on turn 3 in game 2. This one gets grindy. I lose eventually because of an endless stream of removal and dark confidant beats.
SB: +4 Leyline. I didn't write what I took out. I probably should have done something a little more aggressive here, but I realize that this is just a bad MU.
0-1
Round 2 - Mono U Prison with Howling Mine and the Owl that pings you for life. G1, I just win on T2. G2 he wins bu filling my hand and bouncing my engines with Cryptic Command and I have a slow start. He eventually gets chalice on 0 and 1. Interestingly here, there was a time that I had enough storm to win but no red mana because I couldn't resolve the Mox Opal, so I had to take the loss. G3 he puts Chalice on 0 on turn 1. Echoing Truth into combo.
SB +1 Lab maniac, +3 silence. -1 NR, -2 serum, -1 sleight for game 1. For game 3 I swap the sideboard for Echoing Truth.
1-1
Round 3 - Grixis Delver. G1 I die quickly to Pyromancer beats. G2 is more grindy, but eventually I go off on the back of silence. G3 was really close and I punted this match away. We're both at 3 life. I got my grapeshots Slaughter Games removed. I have 4 land and 2 opals, so I drop 2 puresteel and a sram while he's tapped out and drop a million equipment on them. Eventually between beats and burn we get to 3 life each. Then I put the game. He waits for my upkeep for some reason to thought scour (digging for bolt), I should have cast the silence I had in hand in response to the thought scour. I didn't. I just said, "Okay" Then when he finds bolt, I realize my mistake. Bummer. 1-2
SB: +4 silence, remove same as above.
1-2
Round 4 - Esper Mill. I lose game 1 on turn 3 (hard to combo out after they get rid of most of your library because of our low land count). Game 2 he has chalice on 0 and 1. End step echoing truth to go off next turn. Game 3 leads with chalice on 0, on turn 2 he plays chalice on 1. I have 3 engines in hand. I just play them and beat with 2/2s until I win.
2-2
Fun day, that is the most important thing. And I've only had about 15 games with the deck prior to the event, so i'm not terribly upset with it.
Takeaways:
-At one point I couldn't cast grapeshot due to lack of red mana and a chalice of the void on 0. I'll be going down 1 hallowed foundry mainboard and up 1 sacred foundry. I'm also considering dropping the sleight of hand for it, also. The times when having slight of hand as an additional cantrip was once. I also didn't see it all day and didn't miss it. When I used it it was because I was digging for land.
-Sidebaord needs an alt wincon. Lab maniac I think only would matter when expecting surgical ong rapeshot. I just wnet with Lab maniac today, but I don't think its correct. I didn;'t try grid today, but I will.
-EDIT: Beat down plan. I'm surprised how much easier the games felt once I really started to figure that out how to use grapeshot as a non wincon, and also to
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their work in developing this. I'll keep at getting more reps in. It feels really close to amazing, but the sideboard needs protecting. I didn't run some of the latest things because I don't have the cards.
This might sound an odd question, but how does everyone keep track of their storm count?
I realise that you need some way of demonstrating to the opponent how many spells you've played. But, I think plonking a dice out seems pretty obvious as to what our game plan is..... I kind of want it to be a surprise.
Also, pro tip: when comboing and using two mox opals to play grapeshot, it is always wise to tap these for 2 red, then play a third mox (if you can). This means that you have it open to play swan song if your grapeshot gets countered. Unlike what I did in my last game!!! Foolish mistake.
Remember that the storm count happens when you cast, not when the spell resolves. So just add a couple of extra damage to the storm count. Usually by the time I've gotten to enough mox opals I am far enough into my storm count that there's a couple of extra on the storm count than I need anyway. So if they counter Grapeshot, they're only countering 1 damage. Not any of the copies. Just like Newlamog's cast trigger. After reading your second post, countering the quicken would have been what needed to be done.
Edit: To answer the initial question, I'll just count the equipment that I've cast that turn after the first Retract resolves. Or I'll make sure to place the cards to a different spot of the board so that there's no doubt about what I cast that turn. Its just hard not to give it away, but the reality is that if I'm comboing off game 1 then the surprise factor has been reached and I timed it for when they were tapped out anyway, so its okay to reveal the surprise.
Hard not to. But at the first retract is a good time in my mind, then they'll be like... "Oh crap. You're counting spells... I didn't leave up a way to deal with that."
Been following this deck for a couple of weeks now. Glad I ordered the pieces a week or so ago. I can't wait to get it in the mail! It looks like tons of fun and on the surface looks really consistent (almost scarily so... we all know what that means, but I'll leave that for another thread).
Just wanted to say congratz and thanks to everyone for doing the solid research into this deck.
Blood moon asks, "do they have nature's claim in hand?" If yes, then they have it.
Hey all, I've been a long time follower and I've been playing Delver for a couple of months now. I just wanted to say that this quote above reminds me of an article by a pro that I read recently. He was discussing playing against twin and how you had to play like they always had it, but you also had to force them to. Blood Moon in this example plays the same way, I think.
I've always loved the card. And always chosen it over Fulminator or Molten Rain. Also, I'm not a pro by any stretch. I mostly wanted to point out the similarity of the statements. Blood Moon passes the 'Nature's Claim' test IMHO.
More to the point, I walked around the meta where I'm visiting the other day and I'll be able to play next week. A few midrange, and 1 of grixis, Tron, eldrazi, affinity, an energy Hebrew. I know that some other period might show next week but aside from Tron I was thinking Bogles would be a good pick. Thoughts?
This. Definitely. I'd consider for the sake of spiciness one week to mainboard them since the only deck it wont hurt is the mono black list. Just make sure you know how to play around it.
Also I'd definitely keep snare around for Eldrazi taxes, because it hits a lot there.
Which mono black control list? An 8 rack type, or something else?
Round 1 vs. Grishoalbrand. Turn 1, Faithless Looting, turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance Griselbrand. He had to Nourishing Shoal a Borborygmos, but then went to discard. When I put lethal on the board with a Spirit Mantle, he Nourishing Shoaled a Borborygmos Enraged again. He won a few turns later when he his Worldspine Wurm was big enough to barely trample damage over an 11/11 NON LIFELINKed creature. Lifelink would have won the game at any point. In the next game after Gaddock Teegs and Rest in Peaces came in, he did turn 2 SSG X 2, Desperate Ritual, and Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm. I decide whether to cast Rancor or Hyena Umbra on Kor Spiritdancer in case I draw Daybreak Coronet. I do draw it, but after a triple block leaves my Spiritdancer without any gear, I have to chump with it. I top deck a Bogle, but only have 3 total mana to play Bogle, Aura, and then be 1 short of putting another Daybreak Coronet that I drew. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. 8 Whack. This was the first time I saw this newer player. She drew pretty terribly, which was the first time I'd seen this happen (usually I squeak out wins vs. this deck, despite a seemingly amazing matchup). She flooded in game 2 while I drew Daybreak Coronet both games. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Jeskai Queller. This is our resident UR player. In the first game, I get a big Bogle quickly. He runs Cryptic Commands, but fails to find a 6th land to Snapcaster Mage another back. In the next game, I get off to a good start again and he just doesn't have enough. He had Runed Halo for my Bogle, but I had Nature's Claim in hand. By the time he got another Runed Halo, I have another Bogle with Ethereal Armor and it's big enough for lethal. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Kiki Nahiri Chord.. I am unsure about the composition of this deck since this guy likes putting his own spin on things, but I know he has the Angel Feeder Combo. In the first game, I get 2 Kor Spiritdancer by turn 3, and then draw enough Auras to go all-in on it since I lose to Path to Exile anyway, especially with Restoration Angel on top of his library (Courser of Kruphix in play), 5 mana, and no Path to Exile for me in hand. I go all-in and luckily draw enough Auras with Ethereal Armor for game. In the next game, I draw a nutty hand and explode while he does Chord for Reclamation Sage to hit my Rancor to keep any damage from getting through. He tries the same thing with Restoration Angel off Chord of Calling next turn, but I had drawn a Path to Exile and the Rancor tramples for lethal. It was a super quick hand with double Daybreak Coronets. 2-0.
Round 5 vs. Mono Black Rack. I am deathly afraid of this player. He always seems to draw super well, drawing discard early, then Smallpox and Ensnaring Bridges midgame, and then Shrieking Afflictions and the Rack like crazy in the end game. He beat me before a bit back in games 2 and 3 when I opened on Leyline of Sanctity. The games at that time were not close and this time was nearly the same. There is a card that will help him in any situation and that's the card he got. Yep, I'm pretty salty that I have not ever looked at a Mono Black Rack deck list, yet I can guess what he will play nearly every turn. 0-2.
I get 3-2, which is good for 6th place. I only dropped one place that last round, but it's frustrating to know that if that opponent drew the same way as he did against you, he'd probably never lose a match at FNM. Two more days until the RPTQ!
Re: round five. People stack decks all the time. If you're afraid of this player because he ALWAYS draws insanely well... There may be a reason. Always shuffle the opponents deck in competitive play. If they take issue, call the judge.
Another thing about it, 8 rack is just a terrible MU for bogles IMHO. All of its draws can look pretty bleak for bogles. Bogles really is a combo deck. I started in modern on mono black 8 rack. What you are describing is just what the deck is built to do. It's also a deck that needs to be piloted similar to lantern control in that it rewards solid knowledge of the format. If he has any knowledge of bogles you're just going to feel... Well... Salty.
http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/facetofacegames-com-toronto-open-coverage-february-4th-2017/
The deck list is pretty standard. 1 grapeshot and 1 sigil of distinction.
Sideboard is 4 Monastery Mentor, and 3 thoughcast. Also 1 void snare and no echoing truth.
I was just answering the question? The question didn't seem directed at any one person...
Combo, is a bit more situational. Cheeri0s I'd move in Ratchet bomb, spatial. Put a chalice on 0 to shut off paladin, and if I can get a chalice on 2 also. That would shut down the most commonly run answers to chalice.
If I'm on the play very ad nauseum, drop chalice on 0 to shut off lotus if they suspend them t1. If I'm on the draw then put it on 1 for angels grace, or the one 1-drop black version of ad nauseum. Chalice on 1 also shuts off their card selection. Removal is bad. Ratchet bomb comes in for phyrexian life. Remember tha pithing needle doesn't work on lotus bloom. And I'll probably side out the last dismember for a spatial contortion for the fringe benefit of using it on a TKS or smasher to close the game.
I could be wrong, because I'm rusty with the build and only started playing with it again just a couple days ago. But that's where I'd start.
Relic comes in against grishoal. Titan breach/shift I'll mulligan to GQ and anot aggro hand to try to win the race.
It might be 'cute', but I'm curious if anyone has tried this?
So yeah, loving this idea right now. And thanks Ashton Kutcher for keeping this thread alive. (Side note, are you Jordan from modernnexus?)
My list is virtually the same as Sheridan's list above, however in place of Sacred Foundry I'm stealing a page from zac's book and running a horizon canopy. Part of the reason for that is because I'm travelling, and I don't have a sacred foundry with me.
My sideboard is closer to Zacs:
4 Echoing Truth
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
First set of matches:
Round 1 - Mardu Midrange, AKA removal.dec. Needless to say this didn't go so great. G1 every engine I landed just died. G2 I mulligan to 5 to find an engine but no silence. He know's better than to tap out, and my life totaly dwindles while trying to find the silence. SB +4 Silence, -1 Noxious Revival, -1 Slight of Hand, -2 Serum Visions
0-1
Round 2 - Bubble hulk. We're both on fairly non-interactive combo decks. G1 I go off T2. G2 he goes off on T5, G3 I mull to 5 he mulls to 4, I keep a 1 lander wish Serum Visions, 2 engines, and an equipment. I eventually find my second land, play Sram, pass. He's still on 1 land trying to get enough cards in hand to discard hulk to go off. I land the second engine the next turn and go off on like turn 7.
SB: Silence + 3. -1 NR, -1 Sleight, -1 serum
1-1
Round 3 - Affinity. G1 I win on T3. G2 he wins very quickly with multiple steel overseers and a couple airborne beaters (I have no net). G3 was interesting, and really grindy. Eventually he gets me to 3, because he didn't want to go all in thinking that I was holding up removal. I don't have removal, but he didn't know that. At 3 life, I end step NR for retract and go off.
2-1
SB: Echoing Truth +4 in game 1. -2 serum, -1 NR, -1 sleight. I did this since he lead on basic mountain and I thought that blood moon would happen. G3, I put in forge-tender in place of 2 truths. I don't see any of them in games 2 or 3.
Round 4- Burn. Intentional draw before the game started but we played anyway. I didn't mulligan aggressively becuause I didn't take the games we played for fun after very seriously so I won't comment too much. He draws his whole sideboard in game 2. I don't see mine.
2-1-1
Second tourney:
Round 1 - Jund; Unremarkable losses here. I quickly go 0-2. Able to hard cast leyline on turn 3 in game 2. This one gets grindy. I lose eventually because of an endless stream of removal and dark confidant beats.
SB: +4 Leyline. I didn't write what I took out. I probably should have done something a little more aggressive here, but I realize that this is just a bad MU.
0-1
Round 2 - Mono U Prison with Howling Mine and the Owl that pings you for life. G1, I just win on T2. G2 he wins bu filling my hand and bouncing my engines with Cryptic Command and I have a slow start. He eventually gets chalice on 0 and 1. Interestingly here, there was a time that I had enough storm to win but no red mana because I couldn't resolve the Mox Opal, so I had to take the loss. G3 he puts Chalice on 0 on turn 1. Echoing Truth into combo.
SB +1 Lab maniac, +3 silence. -1 NR, -2 serum, -1 sleight for game 1. For game 3 I swap the sideboard for Echoing Truth.
1-1
Round 3 - Grixis Delver. G1 I die quickly to Pyromancer beats. G2 is more grindy, but eventually I go off on the back of silence. G3 was really close and I punted this match away. We're both at 3 life. I got my grapeshots Slaughter Games removed. I have 4 land and 2 opals, so I drop 2 puresteel and a sram while he's tapped out and drop a million equipment on them. Eventually between beats and burn we get to 3 life each. Then I put the game. He waits for my upkeep for some reason to thought scour (digging for bolt), I should have cast the silence I had in hand in response to the thought scour. I didn't. I just said, "Okay" Then when he finds bolt, I realize my mistake. Bummer. 1-2
SB: +4 silence, remove same as above.
1-2
Round 4 - Esper Mill. I lose game 1 on turn 3 (hard to combo out after they get rid of most of your library because of our low land count). Game 2 he has chalice on 0 and 1. End step echoing truth to go off next turn. Game 3 leads with chalice on 0, on turn 2 he plays chalice on 1. I have 3 engines in hand. I just play them and beat with 2/2s until I win.
2-2
Fun day, that is the most important thing. And I've only had about 15 games with the deck prior to the event, so i'm not terribly upset with it.
Takeaways:
-At one point I couldn't cast grapeshot due to lack of red mana and a chalice of the void on 0. I'll be going down 1 hallowed foundry mainboard and up 1 sacred foundry. I'm also considering dropping the sleight of hand for it, also. The times when having slight of hand as an additional cantrip was once. I also didn't see it all day and didn't miss it. When I used it it was because I was digging for land.
-Sidebaord needs an alt wincon. Lab maniac I think only would matter when expecting surgical ong rapeshot. I just wnet with Lab maniac today, but I don't think its correct. I didn;'t try grid today, but I will.
-EDIT: Beat down plan. I'm surprised how much easier the games felt once I really started to figure that out how to use grapeshot as a non wincon, and also to
I think I'll shift the sideboard as follows:
4 echoing truth
3 Silence
2 Path to Exile
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their work in developing this. I'll keep at getting more reps in. It feels really close to amazing, but the sideboard needs protecting. I didn't run some of the latest things because I don't have the cards.
Remember that the storm count happens when you cast, not when the spell resolves. So just add a couple of extra damage to the storm count. Usually by the time I've gotten to enough mox opals I am far enough into my storm count that there's a couple of extra on the storm count than I need anyway. So if they counter Grapeshot, they're only countering 1 damage. Not any of the copies. Just like Newlamog's cast trigger. After reading your second post, countering the quicken would have been what needed to be done.
Edit: To answer the initial question, I'll just count the equipment that I've cast that turn after the first Retract resolves. Or I'll make sure to place the cards to a different spot of the board so that there's no doubt about what I cast that turn. Its just hard not to give it away, but the reality is that if I'm comboing off game 1 then the surprise factor has been reached and I timed it for when they were tapped out anyway, so its okay to reveal the surprise.
Hard not to. But at the first retract is a good time in my mind, then they'll be like... "Oh crap. You're counting spells... I didn't leave up a way to deal with that."
Been following this deck for a couple of weeks now. Glad I ordered the pieces a week or so ago. I can't wait to get it in the mail! It looks like tons of fun and on the surface looks really consistent (almost scarily so... we all know what that means, but I'll leave that for another thread).
Just wanted to say congratz and thanks to everyone for doing the solid research into this deck.
Hey all, I've been a long time follower and I've been playing Delver for a couple of months now. I just wanted to say that this quote above reminds me of an article by a pro that I read recently. He was discussing playing against twin and how you had to play like they always had it, but you also had to force them to. Blood Moon in this example plays the same way, I think.
I've always loved the card. And always chosen it over Fulminator or Molten Rain. Also, I'm not a pro by any stretch. I mostly wanted to point out the similarity of the statements. Blood Moon passes the 'Nature's Claim' test IMHO.
I often say it wrong and call it boggles...
More to the point, I walked around the meta where I'm visiting the other day and I'll be able to play next week. A few midrange, and 1 of grixis, Tron, eldrazi, affinity, an energy Hebrew. I know that some other period might show next week but aside from Tron I was thinking Bogles would be a good pick. Thoughts?
This. Definitely. I'd consider for the sake of spiciness one week to mainboard them since the only deck it wont hurt is the mono black list. Just make sure you know how to play around it.
Also I'd definitely keep snare around for Eldrazi taxes, because it hits a lot there.
Which mono black control list? An 8 rack type, or something else?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/527927#online
Re: round five. People stack decks all the time. If you're afraid of this player because he ALWAYS draws insanely well... There may be a reason. Always shuffle the opponents deck in competitive play. If they take issue, call the judge.
Another thing about it, 8 rack is just a terrible MU for bogles IMHO. All of its draws can look pretty bleak for bogles. Bogles really is a combo deck. I started in modern on mono black 8 rack. What you are describing is just what the deck is built to do. It's also a deck that needs to be piloted similar to lantern control in that it rewards solid knowledge of the format. If he has any knowledge of bogles you're just going to feel... Well... Salty.
Edit: good luck in a couple days! ! !