I started with Kiblers deck and tweaked it. Woodland wanderer was meh for me, Pia and Kiren Nalaar have been INSANE. Card is so good right now. This is not an aggro deck the way Kibler/I have it built, it is a grindy deck with a SLIGHTLY aggressive spin. Sarkhan has been pretty good and Kiora has impressed me. Sometimes she comes down turn three and untaps rattleclaw allowing you to Negate/dispel. Other times she rots in your hand till Raptors Stabilize the board and then draws you a few cards/feeds delve. Been really enjoying the deck, just 5-0ed a league last night with it and I am 3-1 in the current league.
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What are Pia and Kiran working against? I'm not really sure what you'd be sacking to them aside from the one token they create?
Two tokens.
It's a creature that generates 3 bodies, making it resilient to removal -- alongside Deathmist Raptor. It basically turns spot removal spells off against you, which a lot of people are relying on in mid-range MUs.
Edit: This is totally a list I would play. I wasn't on board with Kibler's lists until I saw Suff's changes with Pias and Kirans as it lets you play super long against decks like Jeskai Black and Esper Dragons.
Ah. Missed that it was two. Makes a lot more sense now.
I started with Kiblers deck and tweaked it. Woodland wanderer was meh for me, Pia and Kiren Nalaar have been INSANE. Card is so good right now. This is not an aggro deck the way Kibler/I have it built, it is a grindy deck with a SLIGHTLY aggressive spin. Sarkhan has been pretty good and Kiora has impressed me. Sometimes she comes down turn three and untaps rattleclaw allowing you to Negate/dispel. Other times she rots in your hand till Raptors Stabilize the board and then draws you a few cards/feeds delve. Been really enjoying the deck, just 5-0ed a league last night with it and I am 3-1 in the current league.
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What are Pia and Kiran working against? I'm not really sure what you'd be sacking to them aside from the one token they create?
Anyone have any thoughts on the matchup with Esper Dragons? I have found it winnable, but iffy, and I'm wondering how including Surrak Dragonclaw and Crater's Claws in the list might help.
Has anyone had trouble with Esper Dragons? I won my match at FNM against it, but I won the first match after he got stuck on three lands for two turns, so it's hard to call that a solid victory. Ojutai into Silumgar seems pretty hard to deal with. I'd like to find a place for Surrak Dragonclaw for the control matchups but I don't know how he fairs against the dragons lists.
2-0 vs GW Eldrazi Ramp
2-0 vs what was basically a heap of cards sort of vaguely centered around allies
2-1 vs Esper Dragons
Makindi Slide runner performed pretty well in putting early pressure on and I really enjoyed the surprise at the reality shifts, and they worked out pretty well. I never actually cast Sarkhan, so I'm going to be doing some more testing with the list.
So, I was thinking Reality Shift gets passed over a lot considering it takes out creature Gideon, and is cheap "removal" that works well against other people's fatties and works especially well with trample, leaving the damage unblocked even if they do get another creature out of the deal. For that reason, I'm also trying out Makindi Sliderunner, which has done some work when it gets out early. I kinda miss the extra mana from the Rattleclaw but honestly I like the aggressive creature better. I have had some trouble against Esper Dragons, mostly Jace in Combo with Ojutai. Anyway, I'd love to hear suggestions and ideas. Loving being able to play temur. Waiting on my bloodstained mires to arrive in the mail so I can sleeve this up. Otherwise, I'd be taking it to FNM. :/
Somehow I'm thinking if the Wastes are real, they would be worth a really nice amount for a land. Full-art, first time seen in the game. Could be quite valuable.
This is a deck I've been testing. It's performed pretty well against the Standard Staples, though I was finding ramp to be a tough match-up. I guess Reality Shift somewhere in the 75 might help to have a way to interact with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but honestly even then Ulamog cracking a Sanctum of Ugin is not an easy thing to deal with.
Card choice notes: Self Inflicted Wound is mostly get around Hangarback and the sacrifice effect on Foul-Tongue Invocation against Abzan and possibly Bant. I don't like the fact that they get to choose, but I can't run Crackling Doom so that's the way it is. Radiant Flames is obviously for Aggro Matchups, and as far as I can tell paired with Foul-Tongue Invocation and the Draconic Roars is pretty back breaking against the aggro decks that are around. Disdainful Stroke is just a beast against the midrange decks right now trying to cast Gideon or Siege Rhino or Wingmate Roc, etc. and I have definitely loved plays recycling it with Den Protector Draonic Roaring a Deathmist Raptor then countering Gideon and having the Den Protector around to buy either back depending on what I need to respond to. Actually had a game I won just by attacking with Den Protector, doing damage with Draconic Roar, and keeping the board clean on their side.
The major issue that the deck has is the issue that most four color decks have. Once in a while the mana is inconsistent. Advice on the lands mix would be helpful. I see that some are including the wedge lands from Khans. I'd like to know how that's working out as the 2G for Deathmist and the 2R for Thunderbreak can be painful at times.
So, I was about to buy the cards to build this but...it just seems like the Atarka red match up = unwinnable unless they draw poorly or just brick the entire game. I'm assuming this deck is the Meta's answer to Dark Jeskai and Midrange? I don't about you all but Atarka and R/G landfall + aristocrats is what I'm seeing more off lately. How exactly does the deck prepare to beat those?
With certain builds I've definitely found this to be true. A good hand for Atarka DW played well generally doesn't care if you've gained a few life and have reusable blockers because it has things like temur battle charm or can just go wide with dragon fodder.
For example, this list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10766&d=261604&f=ST getting 1st baffles me as I've tested it against Atarka DW and consistently lost even after sideboarding in the jaddis, etc.
Also, I've heard some people calling Honored Hierarch "the Green Delver". Not sure he's good enough to make the cut, but in the Dream World where you can play it Turn 1 and make him renown it seems very useful to achieve the victory in a Tempo-y way.
And I'd really try to play some copies of Thunderbreak Regent (you know... like... 4 maybe?). I know it would make the deck too close to those Dragon lists, but he's SO good. Kills Wingmate Rock and Mantis Rider, bolts your opponent if he tries to remove it and left uncheck it quickly closes the game.
I would think the honly way Honored Hierarch could fill that roll would be that he's in your opening hand and you burn whatever your opponent drops so they can't block. Problem is people seem pretty keen on destroying mana dorks what with Abzan and Jeskai running plenty of removal for the early game (Fiery Impulse and Reave Soul)
This is what I've been wanting to do. I was running Ojutai's over Mantis Riders, but I think the Riders are the right call. They just put so much pressure on the opponent. Just tested the list against Atarka Decks wins and really just crushed it.
I've been pondering whether it's worth splashing white into a temur aggro/midrange shell and essentially replacing stormbreath (more aggro) with Dragonlord Ojutai. Ojutai with mana up for stubborn denial and Ojutai with Kiora are both pretty ridiculously powerful with so much instant speed removal missing.
(I'm aware that bant is a thing right now, but I don't have the money for Jace or 4 Gideons XD)
My only bad matchup so far as has been the "Gruul/Atarka Deck Wins"... lifegain definitely seems like a necessity for the eldrazi model at the very least because with monastery swiftspear it is definitely possible to have lost to damage by turn four, with turn three even being possible with a totally bonkers hand. The power of become immense with monastery swiftspears against a deck that doesn't want to block early on can't be understated.
Example: I actually had a game that went
Opponent: T1 Mountain, Swiftspear, swing for 1
Me: T1 Forest, Pass
Opp: T2 Mountain, second Swiftspear, titan's strength, swing for 7
Me: T2 Mountain, Rattleclaw (didn't have anything better), pass
Opp: T3, Forest, Wild Slash Rattleclaw, Atarka's Command, dealing 3 and pumping, swing for 6
After that, without drawing into any life gain it was easy enough for him to close out the game. I feel like this alone is enough to make the straight out ramp to Eldrazi plan bad since there's a lot of aggressive decks like that being played. (Especially since in an ideal draw with fetches, titan's strength, swiftspear, and become immense 20 damage is possible on turn 3 for R/x Aggro)
In short, I guess what I'm saying is that I feel like the plan against aggro has to be more than just a SB plan for a deck like ours.
Oops. I want to apologize for posting a list that had already been posted. Anyway, it still stands that I think the mods I've made to the list have helped me out with some of the trickier matchups. The 5c Ramp that was at the SCG Open and placed I think 29th is neat, but I feel like the mana base is quite off so I plan on tinkering around with that. I think Dromoka contributes a lot to a deck like this because she can come out fast and they either use mana on killing her or the next thing you cast can't be countered and in this deck that could easily be Atarka or Ugin.
As far as I can tell, our worst matchup in most of these decks is RDW or whatever variation you might run into, though the game is over if you drop Ugin and have anything north of 6 life. Sometimes ramping is just too slow in these cases where your opponent can attack with a monastery swiftspear they've hit with become immense and then temur battle raged. 18 damage in one swing that early is gg.
Ah. Missed that it was two. Makes a lot more sense now.
What are Pia and Kiran working against? I'm not really sure what you'd be sacking to them aside from the one token they create?
Has anyone had trouble with Esper Dragons? I won my match at FNM against it, but I won the first match after he got stuck on three lands for two turns, so it's hard to call that a solid victory. Ojutai into Silumgar seems pretty hard to deal with. I'd like to find a place for Surrak Dragonclaw for the control matchups but I don't know how he fairs against the dragons lists.Sorry. Post below loaded late.
2-0 vs GW Eldrazi Ramp
2-0 vs what was basically a heap of cards sort of vaguely centered around allies
2-1 vs Esper Dragons
Makindi Slide runner performed pretty well in putting early pressure on and I really enjoyed the surprise at the reality shifts, and they worked out pretty well. I never actually cast Sarkhan, so I'm going to be doing some more testing with the list.
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Woodland Wanderer
Instants(10)
4 Reality Shift
3 Murderous Cut
3 Stubborn Denial
Planeswalker(2)
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
Land(26)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
1 Cinder Glade
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Frontier Bivouac
4 Lumbering Falls
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Shivan Reef
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Virulent Plague
2 Dispel
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Radiant Flames
2 Duress
1 Exert Influence
2 Self-inflicted Wound
So, I was thinking Reality Shift gets passed over a lot considering it takes out creature Gideon, and is cheap "removal" that works well against other people's fatties and works especially well with trample, leaving the damage unblocked even if they do get another creature out of the deal. For that reason, I'm also trying out Makindi Sliderunner, which has done some work when it gets out early. I kinda miss the extra mana from the Rattleclaw but honestly I like the aggressive creature better. I have had some trouble against Esper Dragons, mostly Jace in Combo with Ojutai. Anyway, I'd love to hear suggestions and ideas. Loving being able to play temur. Waiting on my bloodstained mires to arrive in the mail so I can sleeve this up. Otherwise, I'd be taking it to FNM. :/
3 Deathmist Raptor
3 Den Protector
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
3 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
4 Thunderbreak Regent
Instants (7)
3 Draconic Roar
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Stubborn Denial
Planeswalkers (5)
4 Kiora, Master of the Depths
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cinder Glade
3 Forest
1 Island
2 Lumbering Falls
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
1 Shivan Reef
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
2 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Greenwarden of Murasa
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Crater's Claws
4 Radiant Flames
3 Roast
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
Card choice notes: Self Inflicted Wound is mostly get around Hangarback and the sacrifice effect on Foul-Tongue Invocation against Abzan and possibly Bant. I don't like the fact that they get to choose, but I can't run Crackling Doom so that's the way it is. Radiant Flames is obviously for Aggro Matchups, and as far as I can tell paired with Foul-Tongue Invocation and the Draconic Roars is pretty back breaking against the aggro decks that are around. Disdainful Stroke is just a beast against the midrange decks right now trying to cast Gideon or Siege Rhino or Wingmate Roc, etc. and I have definitely loved plays recycling it with Den Protector Draonic Roaring a Deathmist Raptor then countering Gideon and having the Den Protector around to buy either back depending on what I need to respond to. Actually had a game I won just by attacking with Den Protector, doing damage with Draconic Roar, and keeping the board clean on their side.
The major issue that the deck has is the issue that most four color decks have. Once in a while the mana is inconsistent. Advice on the lands mix would be helpful. I see that some are including the wedge lands from Khans. I'd like to know how that's working out as the 2G for Deathmist and the 2R for Thunderbreak can be painful at times.
With certain builds I've definitely found this to be true. A good hand for Atarka DW played well generally doesn't care if you've gained a few life and have reusable blockers because it has things like temur battle charm or can just go wide with dragon fodder.
For example, this list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10766&d=261604&f=ST getting 1st baffles me as I've tested it against Atarka DW and consistently lost even after sideboarding in the jaddis, etc.
I would think the honly way Honored Hierarch could fill that roll would be that he's in your opening hand and you burn whatever your opponent drops so they can't block. Problem is people seem pretty keen on destroying mana dorks what with Abzan and Jeskai running plenty of removal for the early game (Fiery Impulse and Reave Soul)
(I'm aware that bant is a thing right now, but I don't have the money for Jace or 4 Gideons XD)
Example: I actually had a game that went
Opponent: T1 Mountain, Swiftspear, swing for 1
Me: T1 Forest, Pass
Opp: T2 Mountain, second Swiftspear, titan's strength, swing for 7
Me: T2 Mountain, Rattleclaw (didn't have anything better), pass
Opp: T3, Forest, Wild Slash Rattleclaw, Atarka's Command, dealing 3 and pumping, swing for 6
After that, without drawing into any life gain it was easy enough for him to close out the game. I feel like this alone is enough to make the straight out ramp to Eldrazi plan bad since there's a lot of aggressive decks like that being played. (Especially since in an ideal draw with fetches, titan's strength, swiftspear, and become immense 20 damage is possible on turn 3 for R/x Aggro)
In short, I guess what I'm saying is that I feel like the plan against aggro has to be more than just a SB plan for a deck like ours.
Oops. I want to apologize for posting a list that had already been posted. Anyway, it still stands that I think the mods I've made to the list have helped me out with some of the trickier matchups. The 5c Ramp that was at the SCG Open and placed I think 29th is neat, but I feel like the mana base is quite off so I plan on tinkering around with that. I think Dromoka contributes a lot to a deck like this because she can come out fast and they either use mana on killing her or the next thing you cast can't be countered and in this deck that could easily be Atarka or Ugin.
As far as I can tell, our worst matchup in most of these decks is RDW or whatever variation you might run into, though the game is over if you drop Ugin and have anything north of 6 life. Sometimes ramping is just too slow in these cases where your opponent can attack with a monastery swiftspear they've hit with become immense and then temur battle raged. 18 damage in one swing that early is gg.