The main reason of why so few decks in Modern play him (in my opinion) is that he requires suitable build-lower mana curve to make him really good. He will cost you more life if you play a deck with bigger mana curve which makes him worse (for example that's why Junk usually doesn't play him while Jund does).
To be honest I think it's because lifegain sucks in non green colors. There aren't great lifegain creatures that have a low curve in modern tbh.
That's true too and he will probably cost you more in these decks because of that. If you have spells with lower cmc he can still be decent even if you don't have much life gain (Mardu plays him) but you need to play mostly cards with cmc 1 and 2 and few cards with cmc above of that.
I agree with this.
Low curve while each spell flipped is essentially a bomb; that's Jund.
Whats everyone's opinion on the best manland for us?
The manlands that best fixes your manabase are the "best manlands". In my opinion, you choose the colors you most need over what the actual manland does. If you were to rank the manlands we can run in terms of body+ability, it would be
Yet, there is a reason why noone runs Treetop while Quagmire sees some play in Abzan. Treetop only produces green while Quagmire produces black as well so it gets the nod.
Now that the fast lands have been printed, Quagmires are probably useless and there will probably be more Shambling Vents and Stirring Wildwoods in lists but that is not because they have better bodies. Its because of the colors the produce.
I agree with this.
Also, you do have a point about Quagmires losing potential value in Abzan.
I had not really seen it that way but it makes sense since HQ's body and ability are lacking aside from the colors it provides.
Depending on the type of Abzan build, fastlands are more helpful when both sides of the card can lead to active lines of play, not if half the card is dead.
Noble Abzan will most likely utilize 4x Blooming Marsh since discard or NH are possible outcomes without further investment.
Those who run a more standard list, myself included, will probably split B. Marsh or Concealed Courtyard; 3-1 split favoring Marsh as a painless T2 land for Scooze or 'Goyf.
IMO, neither fastland will benefit the T1 higher curve Abzan playstyle since there are no beneficial T1 plays outside of painless discard.
This is the reason why some folks here aren't too excited about our fastlands; we can't mimic the Jund manabase (currently) and have the option of two separate lines of play as they do. This is what makes Jund a house.
Having the option to Bolt or dicard is a big deal, whether they "bolt more" or "discard more" is superfluous. By now, we should all know it depends on the MU.
On another note how do you think the new lands change our manabase?
Well Abzan will become better against aggro decks but I think Jund will be still favourite against those-at least as long Abzan doesn't get (if) one 1 mana Bolt like removal. I honestly don't know which lands will go in favour of fast lands, probably basic plains and maybe Twillight Mire, or maybe some copy of manland. I even don't know which one will see play but I guess B/W has better chances since it gives you an option of turn 1 Path which admittedly is not good on turn 1 usually but it could be an option on the draw sometimes (by killing opposing Goyf for example) while B/G doesn't provide much (you don't need green on turn 1). That said testing will be required in my opinion to see which configuration is the best.
Versions with Noble Hierarch will almost for sure want the B/G fastland as a 4-of, I think, since it allows a turn 1 discard or Hierarch. Versions without Hierarch, I'm not sure, but I think B/G is still better because it allows plays like turn 1 discard -> turn 2 colorless land + Goyf. White mana is typically not super important until turn 3, except against Infect where we don't care about our life total too much anyway. Suicide Zoo is the only deck against which we would really benefit from having a turn 1/2 pain-free white source.
This is very sound reasoning.
Blooming Marsh makes sense as a 4-of in Hierarch builds. T1 Path off Concealed Courtyard doesn't a solid line of play.
On another note, I also don't see both fastlands being played in a single list. It's either-or since IMO fastlands are better as 4-of's. Just like Jund has with Cliffs and not Copperline Gorge.
4x Blooming Marsh and 2x Concealed Courtyard seems odd and problematic T4+ since by then they are all basically tapped lands.
Interested to see if Hierarch-less builds are well-positioned or not with the addition of fastlands and if they are, will they put up results?
Those are sound points and are reasons I'd also consider running Tendrils in my own side.
When I made the decision to replace it for Charm it was in regards to your SB as a whole. There are 4 other possible options you have at your disposal against Voice, Finks and Dredge and not to mention hate within the MB in the form of Path.
Given all those spells, I believe you're set to dispatch GY themed creatures and builds.
The only real differences now are how hard each card sweeps. Charm is weaker, but makes up for that with other modes. Regen is a nice combat trick. Echantment removal is of course less appealing ATM.
My experiences with Charm vs Affinity haven't been terrible. By the time they dump their hand around T2 they are still soft to the -1/-1 sweep. It may not hit Champion or Ornithopter but does to almost everything else, especially those elusive manlands as you've said.
Hey guys! I'm planning on play a PPTQ next weekend and I've thought that Abzan is better right now than Jund and because of this I'm thinking to play this list:
I'm playing with Siege Rhino instead of Grim Flayer because I think the deck is weaker against graveyard hate and it's better against Jund with the rhino. What do you think? Any suggestions? Do you think it's worth playing Collective Brutality even if I don't play Grim Flayer?
Lists without Flayer are fine. I like them against combo since he can dig for discard and answers but we were fine before Grim was printed. Here are a couple things I would swap
1) Swap a forest for a Twilight Mire. This will do way better fixing for Scavenging Ooze than an extra forest will.
2) What matchup is Timely Reinforcements for? Is it against burn or zoo? For burn, I would rather have Collective Brutality. Try it. Kill a guide, take an Atarka's Command, drain 2. All modes are good. If it is against zoo, I might be tempted to just run a second Kitchen Finks instead since it can be brought in against other matchups as well.
3) You are running 3 Fulminators. Honestly, I have followed suit with Andrea Mengucci and am just abandoning the tron matchup. Even with 3 fulminators, it is almost impossible to win and it might be better off to dedicate those slots to other matchups. Your call.
So, has anyone read Pat Cox's article about Medium Abzan? The part I took away from the article was Golgari Charm. I've been looking for a card that can answer Leyline of Sanctity because that's the only way Boggles and Ad Nauseum beats us... and they always have it it seems. Plus, the -1/-1 effect is great against infect and affinity. Not to mention the regeneration ability is underrated. Aka its a versatile card which is what we want in our board. So, I am trying to find room for it in my sideboard.
Please provide details on what the better options are?
From the SB, Damnation is a solid reset button when you're behind in the mirror.
Finks is difficult to remove and Painful Truths is a great way to reload.
Against Abzan, Golgari Charm or EE sweep spirits.
Other than that, most mirror MU's and especially those against Jund don't require too much more spells since Abzan's MB has incidental hate towards them anyway.
In my experiences, once I side in specific hate the remaining slots are saved for beat sticks like Thrun, Baloth or Sigarda HoH. It all comes down to sticking a threat, protecting it and riding it to victory.
Low curve while each spell flipped is essentially a bomb; that's Jund.
Not sure for GY hate since the remaining options that come to mind hurt delirium.
Also, you do have a point about Quagmires losing potential value in Abzan.
I had not really seen it that way but it makes sense since HQ's body and ability are lacking aside from the colors it provides.
I can also see Teetop as a consideration though. For it's cost you get more than what you pay for: On time, it's a T3 3/3 with Trample.
Seems about a descent starting point.
Noble Abzan will most likely utilize 4x Blooming Marsh since discard or NH are possible outcomes without further investment.
Those who run a more standard list, myself included, will probably split B. Marsh or Concealed Courtyard; 3-1 split favoring Marsh as a painless T2 land for Scooze or 'Goyf.
IMO, neither fastland will benefit the T1 higher curve Abzan playstyle since there are no beneficial T1 plays outside of painless discard.
This is the reason why some folks here aren't too excited about our fastlands; we can't mimic the Jund manabase (currently) and have the option of two separate lines of play as they do. This is what makes Jund a house.
Having the option to Bolt or dicard is a big deal, whether they "bolt more" or "discard more" is superfluous. By now, we should all know it depends on the MU.
Blooming Marsh makes sense as a 4-of in Hierarch builds. T1 Path off Concealed Courtyard doesn't a solid line of play.
On another note, I also don't see both fastlands being played in a single list. It's either-or since IMO fastlands are better as 4-of's. Just like Jund has with Cliffs and not Copperline Gorge.
4x Blooming Marsh and 2x Concealed Courtyard seems odd and problematic T4+ since by then they are all basically tapped lands.
Interested to see if Hierarch-less builds are well-positioned or not with the addition of fastlands and if they are, will they put up results?
When I made the decision to replace it for Charm it was in regards to your SB as a whole. There are 4 other possible options you have at your disposal against Voice, Finks and Dredge and not to mention hate within the MB in the form of Path.
Given all those spells, I believe you're set to dispatch GY themed creatures and builds.
The only real differences now are how hard each card sweeps. Charm is weaker, but makes up for that with other modes. Regen is a nice combat trick. Echantment removal is of course less appealing ATM.
My experiences with Charm vs Affinity haven't been terrible. By the time they dump their hand around T2 they are still soft to the -1/-1 sweep. It may not hit Champion or Ornithopter but does to almost everything else, especially those elusive manlands as you've said.
I'd try it and see how it works out.
Maybe Flaying Tendrils.
Charm has a decent sweep mode already at instant speed.
Plus, the other modes are relevant in more MU's than most think.
Tendrils is the closest thing Abzan has to Jund's Anger. If it's something you prefer in your SB the next I'd cut is disfigure.
Finks is difficult to remove and Painful Truths is a great way to reload.
Against Abzan, Golgari Charm or EE sweep spirits.
Other than that, most mirror MU's and especially those against Jund don't require too much more spells since Abzan's MB has incidental hate towards them anyway.
In my experiences, once I side in specific hate the remaining slots are saved for beat sticks like Thrun, Baloth or Sigarda HoH. It all comes down to sticking a threat, protecting it and riding it to victory.
Hope this helps.
Never thought mind-control would be so problematic.
Kal is excellent against heavy creature builds.
Albeit, he needs enough removal to facilitate his trigger.
Some spells Abzan can incorporate are S. Pact and Dismember.