I don't like Mythoses nor the Mutate cards. Yorion decks want permanents, not spells, and you don't have enough Mutate support (i.e. cheap creatures to Mutate on to). Sarulf is also heinous in Yorion decks because he exiles all of your perms too. Personally I would cut these cards in favor of more Yorion stuff and please play the 3 Yorions main + 1 "SB."
For 2 drops I like Mycosynth Wellspring because it helps you hit your lands drops and works well with Doom Foretold. Watcher for Tomorrow is also insane because it triggers on ETB and LTB. For 3 drops I like Oath of Liliana for obvious reasons. For 4 drops I'm a huge fan of Showdown of the Skalds because it's like a Blessing that draws 4 cards instead of 3 and that doesn't cost any life. I know it's 4 mana and it only lasts a turn but Skalds has been amazing in my testing. For 5 drops I prefer The Eldest Reborn over ECD but both are very good. I almost always play the full 4 TERs in my lists.
For additional mass bounce I adore Brago, King Eternal in these builds. Not only does he bounce all of your stuff but he also hits Yorion who then comes back and does Yorion things. It scales wildly out of control after a turn of two.
If you want something silly Witty Demon is bonkers in these decks. Only if your meta is cool with it obv.
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Jan 1, 2021The main change that I recommend is ditching Aetherling in favor of Approach of the Second Sun and bumping it up to 2 copies if possible. It's by far and away the best Control wincon and I'll often splash White just to include it. Otherwise the main card that should be looking at is Sublime Exhalation over some of the more expensive mass removal spells.Posted in: Multiplayer
Sep 25, 2020You should add an Inventors' Fair to your deck if possible over something like Buried Ruin or Rogue's Passage.Posted in: Multiplayer
Scour from Existence and Titan's Presence are easy cuts for things like Spine of Ish Sah. You can even play 4 and 4 copies of Phyrexia's Core for a powerful lategame engine. Meteor Golem also works but the Spine Core engine is a great mana sink and Spine is a good sac target for Tinker. Unstable Obelisk can also get the axe if needed.
2x Darksteel Juggernaut is an easy cut for another key + Forsaken Monument or 2 Monuments or whatever.
If you ever want to put some real money in the deck Ancient Tomb, Mox Opal and Mana Vault are fantastic and they all have recent printings. Mystic Forge is also nutty once you start going heavy on the mana rocks.
Sep 24, 2020Appreciate the reviews, always love seeing people's takes on new cards. That being said I think that you're overrating Leyline Tyrant and Nighthawk Scavenger. Both are essentially unplayable in my mind. I also think that you're way too low on the Bolt lands and many of the spell lands like Bala Ged Recovery. Agadeem's Awakening is bonkers and I'm buying 4 asap. Monoblack Devotion isn't the only Black deck on the market. It's very easy to build around cards like Stitcher's Supplier, Fiend Artisan and Gorging Vulture that can abuse lands like Phyrexian Tower, Crypt of Agadeem and Agadeem's Awakening to provides some amazing mid-to-lategame value. You're also looking at it the wrong way when you say "you can play Living Death instead" because it's an "addition" as opposed to a "replacement." I think that all of the Bolt lands are amazing and that they'll see play in multiplayer formats like EDH for decades to come.Posted in: Multiplayer
Otherwise I can't stress enough how broken spell lands like Bala Ged Recovery are (especially in slower/fair metas). Early game it's a land and lategame it buys back your best spell for reuse. It's absolutely perfect card and I like it way better than things like Regrowth which was a Vintage BANNED card at one point. Whereas Regrowth can be weak/useless early on this card is never dead in the developing stages of the game and later on it's just another copy of your best spell. The card is insanely good.
Jun 21, 2020For MBC you have to choose how you want to build it because the deck can't do everything. If you want a ton of creatures then board wipes aren't possible; Pestilence is no bueno in a deck full of 1/1s. Rather, your "board wipe" is curving Nightmare Shepherd into Plaguecrafter and forcing each opponent to sac 2 creatures.Posted in: Multiplayer
Phyrexian Rager is an easy cut for Ayara, First of Locthwain if you want to add her. They fill a similar role.
One thing to consider is that you don't need to buy exactly 60 cards for your deck. There's nothing stopping you from grabbing things like Dark Ritual and Pestilence so that you can try different combinations based on your meta needs.
May 6, 2020Prid3 posted a message on Ikoria and Ikoria Commander - what will you play ?While there's plenty of great cards in the set I'm mostly excited about Serrated Scorpion, Whisper Squad and Bastion of Remembrance for various stax/drain/MBC builds. Very powerful cards at rock-bottom prices is always a win in my books.Posted in: Multiplayer
Apr 28, 2020Posted in: MultiplayerQuote from Murx »
What do you think about that?
Deck looks good! I don't usually quibble about small changes and nothing seems out-of-place. You have more than enough lands, removal, cheap plays and inevitability. Changing a few cards around doesn't change the deck in a meaningful way so if you're happy with it then so am I.
This deck will struggle to hit 10 mana so I wouldn't recommend it. Knights' Charge does a similar thing for 8 mana and is a better 3 mana play than Josu Vess is as a 4 mana play.
Apr 22, 2020Posted in: Multiplayer
Lurrus AggroMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Companion:
1x Lurrus of the Dream-Den
4x Castle Locthwain
4x Cauldron Familiar
4x Serrated Scorpion
4x Whisper Squad
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Priest of Forgotten Gods
4x Fiend Artisan
1x Tymaret, Chosen from Death
1x Lampad of Death's Vigil
4x Witch's Oven
2x Throne of the God-Pharaoh
4x Gruesome Menagerie
I've been playing things like this myself. Lurrus is a ton of fun to build around . This set has so many amazing cards for these sacrifice-based decks including Serrated Scorpion, Whisper Squad and Fiend Artisan. I also plan to build something like:
Lurrus AggroMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Companion:
1x Lurrus of the Dream-Den
4x Soul Warden
4x Soul's Attendant
4x Serra Ascendant
4x Ajani's Pridemate
4x Karlov of the Ghost Council
2x Vizkopa Guildmage
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4x Authority of the Consuls
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Dawn of Hope
2x Return to the Ranks
1x Dreadhorde Invasion
Apr 19, 2020I recommend playing something closer to this:Posted in: Multiplayer
Apr 17, 2020Posted in: MultiplayerQuote from saturated_wombat »Also taking a look at Insatiable Hemophage, if you mutate one on it, that's 1 damage, two is 4, three 9, and four 16? If that's how it works? Seems like a worse Gary obviously but there could be some merit to it. Chittering Harvester and Cavern Whisperer seem okay as well in casual circles.
Agreed! I'm also going to build that deck for fun:
Golgari MutateMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Lands (24)
4x Gladecover Scout
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Insatiable Hemophage
4x Cavern Whisperer
4x Chittering Harvester
4x Once Upon a Time
Flex Slots (12)
12x Flex Slots
My flex slots would be things like Paradise Druid, Assassin's Trophy, Find // Finality, Beast Within, Pernicious Deed, Deathreap Ritual and maybe some of the Mythic Mutate creatures.
Apr 17, 2020Posted in: Multiplayer
It's a good card for any Zulaport Cutthroat style deck. I got my 5 (4 for Constructed, 1 for EDH) and I intend to use them in a variety of shells. It's durable, it scales well, it adds devotion, there's enough going on here for us to like.
Apr 14, 2020Posted in: Multiplayer
Are you certain?
Ozolith gets the counters and Skullbriar keeps its own.
Straight From Matt Tabak himself.
Yes, The Ozolith is THAT broken.
Apr 14, 2020Posted in: Multiplayer
Actually it does. The wording is weird but it generates new counters; it doesn't move the existing ones.
Green RobotsMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Lands (20)
4x Tree of Tales
4x Llanowar Reborn
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Steel Overseer
4x Scrapyard Recombiner
4x Walking Ballista
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Mox Opal
4x Hardened Scales
4x The Ozolith
4x Once Upon a Time
This is more-or-less what I would play. I might add Black for Winding Constrictor and/or Skullbriar, the Walking Grave but you get the idea.
Apr 14, 2020Bolas's Citadel is bonkers. Cut Whip of Erebos and/or Dimir House Guard and/or both for 1-2 copies.Posted in: Multiplayer
I highly recommend "fixing" your 2-3 drops. Your 2 drops should be things like Yarok's Fenlurker or Gifted Aetherborn if you need an anti-aggro option. Your 3 drops should be things like Phyrexian Arena (which you have, and that's good), Oath of Liliana and Ayara, First of Locthwain. Things like Nantuko Shade, Gatekeeper of Malakir and Nighthawk are relics of the past.
What does "Erebos-Cars" mean? I do like playing 1x Erebos, God of the Dead and 1x Erebos, Bleak-Hearted in these decks because having an indestructible beater/blocker that provides card advantage is amazing in protracted games.
For removal I'm a fan of Defile as the new de facto Doomblade. I'd play 4 of those over Dismembers/GftTs.
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Sep 23, 2015Posted in: Cz Blog
Ah, sorry, this is actually going to be a multiplayer set review :). As such I'm not especially interested in how the cards perform in competitive duel environments.
Jan 18, 2014Prid3 posted a message on Nykson's Back: The Power of Nykthos in Casual Multiplayer MagicPosted in: Cz Blog
The land just isn't for me...
Take it from someone who's played creatureless, Cabal Coffers-based decks for years; you'd be surprised. A card this powerful and flexible isn't going to go down in value and it's not going to get worse as the overall card pool increases. You might regret not grabbing them while they're still 7-8 bucks. Creatures may not be your thing now but you never know how your meta might change.
Jan 17, 2014Posted in: Cz Blog
Cloudgoat Ranger and such are undervalued in general. That being said this card isn't exactly the same thing. It can still die to a Doom Blade at 0 benefit. I'm not holding that against it or anything but I mean there's a distinct difference between this guy and Spectral Procession.
Jan 17, 2014Prid3 posted a message on Nykson's Back: The Power of Nykthos in Casual Multiplayer MagicPosted in: Cz Blog
In regards to land removal; which is where overpowered lands can fail you...I used to be able to play Glacial Chasm with no fear, now I commonly have to be concerned about Acidic Slime, Sylvan Primordial, and Terastodon. My playgroup might not be investing in the greatest land bases of all time but they are definitely spending a lot of effort into removing them from others.
I've kind of derailed; take this all as just an anecdote from one meta in particular. I completely agree with you that adding 2-4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx into most multiplayer decks is going to be a drastic upgrade every time, even in my meta. This land is the real deal; use it with enchantment decks, use it with Lurking Predators decks, use it with fish, use it with elves, use it with monstrous creatures, and definitely use it with Extort, Pestilence, and Gray Merchant decks.
I just want to stress that I would happily play Nykthos in these kinds of metas. Acidic Slime isn't much of a problem card because it only kills 1 thing. There's some give and take with Terastodon as well. Still, have you ever played games games where Sylvan Primordial just gets cheated/ramped out, copied, cloned and revived ad nauseam? That card often feelds more oppressive than Primetime to me because not only do you fetch 2-3x the quantity of lands but you're also destroying them in the process. It only takes 1 cast to be able to Genesis + Miren, the Moaning Well him every turn around here. He blocks basically anything in the air and the same goes for most things on the ground. He's also a virtual draw spell at times because he can empty your deck of lands in a flash.
When the game is focused on Sylvan Primordial I want to be the person ramping him out first. I want to play a deck with Utopia Sprawl, Strangleroot Geist, Predator Ooze, Thrun, the Last Troll, Arbor Colossus, etc. If I can get mine out first then I won't need Nykthos because I'm going to get like 5-7 Forests 2-3 times and once that happens I'm not going to need it. Still, I can't be playing catch-up once he starts coming down.
Jan 17, 2014Posted in: Cz Blog
The most comical aspect of the card is how impossibly difficult it is to misplay with it. Unless you're a sack of potatoes you basically can't mess this card up. You don't have to weigh the risks of attacking and blocking like you sometimes do with say Precinct Captain. There are none. The whole world is your oyster. I am blown away with this card's power-level. First Boros Reckoner, now this. White is sitting pretty at 3 CMC.
Jan 16, 2014Posted in: Cz Blog
To give you an idea the crux of my argument is that the card has "Indestructible," "each upkeep" and "draw a card" written on it. For it to be completely unplayable in a multiplayer setting it would have to be pretty damn bad. At 4 mana I think that it's a perfectly serviceable option. Even if you're just playing it in a regular deck it's still cantripping all of your dudes. Not great, sure, but not unplayable either (assuming that you trigger her somewhat reliably).
Jan 15, 2014Posted in: Cz BlogRhystic Study doesn't always work but it's pretty hard to pay to stop it when there's Ghostly Prison and Pendrell Mists on the table; which I typically see in these decks. Ephara, God of Polis wouldn't be my choice but I see what you're saying. I'll check back later when there are more cards spoiled.
One thing that I'll say is that you can't just hold the bar against the best possible card in the slot. RS is good but at some point you realize that people aren't going to run 4 in every Blue deck ever. If I compared everything to the best-in-slot alternative then my review would probably look something along the lines of "everything is unplayable except for Boros Reckoner." That's boring and it doesn't really help any one. The fact of the matter is that people are going to want to play with new cards to mix things up. I'm trying to help people make informed decisions and avoid obvious traps.
For example, I can see a world where you play with or against a "competitive" pillow-fort deck that has Ephara, God of the Polis in it. There's enough going on there to make it work. Conversely, I think that Champion of Stray Souls will basically never improve a deck as much as any number of alternatives could. I see very little potential for that type of card to be successful.
If we assumed that every deck has R.Study and Kokusho, the Evening Star or Wurmcoil Engine then obviously this kind of analysis is trivial. Still, since we don't like in a utopian society where every player has an unlimited budget and access to every card there is some merit to discussing a fair number of different options.
Jan 15, 2014Posted in: Cz BlogQuote from Miaou
I don't like that discard takes away the potential blowouts of Magic.
Play Bonfire of the Damned :3.
Jan 15, 2014Posted in: Cz Blog
Rhystic Study isn't a lock to always be an amazing draw spell. It has a lot of potential but plenty of people have told me that it hasn't worked out well for them. I'm not saying that the card is amazing but I wouldn't be shocked if it saw play in defensive decks that could churn out tokens every turn if needed. It's resilient to removal and it doubles as a win condition. I've seen worse cards do better things.
Nov 6, 2013Posted in: Cz Blog
If your opponents had removal for the Prison aspects of the decks they could easily beat the deck. The underlying problem is that Artifact/Enchantment removal is grossly underplayed in general. It's not that people don't have options. They do. The problem is that none of those options interacts favorably with Bridge/Scales.
That's not how I see it personally. Damage spells, to me, are there help everyone maintain their sanity by ending games at a reasonable pace. The game virtually ends when a Prison lock is established in my mind. The eventual act of killing everyone is almost entirely win-more.
I don't agree. I think that Prison decks are good, Discard + Prison decks are good and that Discard decks are bad.
Being silent is the lesser of many evils in my opinion. It's not about finding the "good" solution, they all suck, being silent is just slightly "less sucky" than the other ones.
People are passive until you attack at which point people seem to prefer to attack the instigator rather than the defendant. Pretty lame actually. You have to do it and blindly hope that people will make the right decision but I mean it's a dubious gamble at best.
I feel like you're just talking to yourself here but yeah that's more or less how it goes when you play with people who haven't memorized every card in the game (i.e. the vast majority of MTG players). I usually play with some number of "experts" who know their stuff but I mean when you play with 6+ people there's just no way that they're all going to have a firm grasp on the overall card pool.
Well I mean to me it's all about spells and inference. Playing a land shouldn't immediately spell out what your deck is but I mean no one plays a turn 1 Shrieking Affliction "randomly." You should be able to pick up on what a deck is trying to do after a spell or two and base your aggression from there.
While I hear what you're saying at the end of the day "doing nothing" is usually a worse alternative than "doing something" if you're playing around theoretically powerful plays which would probably screw you over either way.
I couldn't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
It's ignorance moreso than anything else. You basically just have to hope that people will eventually get better at the game. They always do after all. The hardest part is breaking people in for the first 10 or so big sessions. The game isn't easy to learn. Once they stop being ignorant even the sketchiest players start to develop better habits in my experience.
The main thing is education. When I break a new player in the only thing that I care about is the fundamentals of the game. "Why are you casting spells and then attacking?" "Did you realize you could do X then Y to ensure Z?" "Why play a land and then cast a draw spell?" "Why are you tapping your lands like that, wouldn't it be better to leave X up instead?" That kind of thing. Nothing that I say has anything to do with strategy or getting people to rally against Bob the Combo player. Everything is 100% mechanics focused. Priority 1 is to get people to start taking the game more seriously and to start playing it with some degree of competency.
Basically people need to get good enough to care before anything can realistically improve. Because of this I do everything in my power to teach people how to play at a reasonably competitive level. Not like PT but FNM at the very least. People care about stuff that they're good at and people want to win stuff that they care about. By making them good at the game I trick them into wanting to win (in some sense anyways). If you want to win, well, eventually you start making better decisions about how to go about doing it.
Nov 3, 2013Posted in: Cz BlogQuote from Indalecio »You seem to imply that discard strategies could be completely ignored and it would still work, because of their ineffectiveness.
No that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that if N players are playing creatures and 1 player is tapping out to annoy them with discard then that player doesn't figure to live very long.
Quote from Indalecio »In conjunction with damage AND prison I just don't think Discard is any "underwhelming" strategy, like at all. It always results on either the discard player getting killed, or the rest of the table getting killed. If people need to set their own plan and strategy aside for the common cause of killing one specific player from turn 1 then it has to be because said player is playing obnoxiously.
Except you're falsely attributing the success of the deck to its Discard aspects rather than its Prison ones. Prison decks win games and oppress tables. Discard decks don't. When a Prison + Discard deck succeeds it's typically not because of the Discard aspect.
Quote from Indalecio »And I mean, this is not an interactive deck we are talking about. Really, can you ever compete with it if you lack artifact/enchantment removal?
... to kill the Prison elements.
Quote from Indalecio »I'm sure you always have 4 Disks in all of your decks...
Quote from Indalecio »Pressure is the only way, but this is where you always find people doing some other business (ignoring their incoming doom basically), and with that in mind you can't go full-out anymore because said players would attack you as well.
Given the choice of sitting back and losing or trying to win I go for trying to win. If the other players want to attack me and let the Prison deck win then that's their prerogative. I've long since given up on relying on people to do the right thing or make smart decisions. Far more often than not they don't. They make moronic, idiotic, baseless decisions that will 100% result in their demise. That's people for you.
Quote from Indalecio »If everybody could turn their creatures sideways and kill off the discard player before he drops the prison cards then it would be easy, but in MP games I´ve experienced, people are either too slow to react or blind to recognize a threat before it's too late.
Yes. People are idiots. Do your part and do what's right. If no one else does, well, tough. That's life. The only thing that you can control are your actions and your decisions. Make them count.
Quote from Indalecio »Why should I step up and turn all my creatures sideways against this player if all I´ll get back is attacks from other players?
Because that's how Magic works. You take the line that can win you the game if it pans out. There's no point in sitting back and slowly losing. I mean, what is your proposed alternative? Let the Prison deck establish its lock and win? That's better? Why are you so afraid to lose first? What does the pecking order matter? Why wouldn't you play to your outs? Play to win? Like every action that you take should be a calculated risk taken in an attempt to win the game. If people are blind morons at least you did your part and did your best and took the line that could have won you the game.
Quote from Indalecio »I need a couple of blockers to secure that, but then it gives more time to the discard player to put his strategy online.
Because you don't need blockers. You don't need anything. You only convince yourself that you can't attack because you can't live with the idea of being vulnerable. You can't live with the idea that decisions that you make could have serious, negative consequences. It took me a long time to learn how to overcome these primal fears but this isn't a God damned duel where you have any semblance of control over the game. You're a worthless little peon in the grand scheme of things. Stop acting like the world will come crumbling down the second that you lower the shields. Do what's right. Make the smart decision that could win the game.
Quote from Indalecio »Bloodchief Ascension, Ankh to trigger it, even Megrim/Caress in conjunction with Anvil of Bogardan, supported by Ensnaring Bridge and sorceries cleaning the board... How can it matter that you can still play your topdeck card assuming no land, when you take X damage each upkeep anyway because of diverse Racks on the board?
So basically the same archetype that I've been proposing for 8 or 9 years. Take a wild guess as to who might have experience with that kind of brew? Try playing that deck regularly without Bridge and/or Noetic Scales. Tell me how far you get. I'm telling you that the only aspect of that deck that's powerful is the Prison aspect of it. Why? Because I've literally been playing that deck for like 9 years and the only games that it wins are games where the Bridge sticks early and stays in play. Period.
Quote from Indalecio »... alongside with Bottomless Pit and co. it just becomes a clock. Noetic Scales my friend.
You're listing that cards that no one other than me has realistically ever suggested and I'd be willing to wager pretty much anything that you're only aware of them because of posts that I've made.
Quote from Indalecio »Of course, your fate is not sealed by turn 2 but you can get there quite quickly.
You get there are as soon as you stick a Prison card and a constant discard engine. End of story. It only works because of the Prison elements. The discard aspect of the deck is completely worthless without them.
Quote from Indalecio »Difference between that and a Grave Pact deck?
Are you asking me what's the difference between an Ensnaring Bridge and a Grave Pact deck? What does my article say about either card?
Quote from Indalecio »About the discard lands discussion, I don't understand why it wouldn't occur.
I'm not saying that it wouldn't occur. I'm saying that most global discard costs 3 or more mana and none of it specifically targets lands. Most of it is "player's choice" and a very small selection of it is random. Very few decks should get completely cheesed out due to mana screw.
Quote from Indalecio »I would still refer discard as one of the top nemesis of creature-based decks...
How many of those discard decks function successfully without some sort of Prison element?
I'm going to share a story with you. I actually had a 3 player session tonight. Unusually small for me, I know, but hey, Magic is Magic. Anyways our games were me and my 2 friends. One posts here, his name is Carthage, you might have seen some of his posts. He's a good player. He has a lot of experience. We were all playing with his decks. The other friend is a total newb who just got into the game. Anyways, I lost every game tonight of the 6 that we played. Most of them I was out first. Why? I was making the right decisions and my newb friend was making the wrong ones. I only have 10, 000 characters so I gotta keep this brief and stick to 1 game. My friend Imprinted a Scourglass on a Protoype Portal and then cast Sword of the Meek. I would attack that player knowing that A) Scourglass would wreck both of us and B) no one plays Sword without playing Thopter Foundry. I attack this player and eventually get him down to 2. He has 1 turn to rip something... Thopter Foundry. Great. Those 2 points? The other guy could have done them ten times over. He had no outs to Scourglass nor Thopter Sword but he made moronic decisions and focused me even though he could beat my fair deck in theory. We obviously both lost... by 2 life points. Had he made a right decision at any point I probably win. Because he made every decision wrong I lost. Most of our games looked like that for the rest of the night. I was just playing with spare "hand-me-down" decks mind you, nothing "good" that I would normally want to play, but I still got ****ed over because people make bad choices all of the time. That's Magic for you. Now, I could look back on these losses and ***** about the players, my decks, etc. I don't though. I know that, at the end of the day, I took the lines that could win me the game. Yeah, sure, I came up short because the other guy had no idea what he was doing. I know that I did my part though. I played well. As long as I continue to play well and make decisions I will succeed in the long run. You can't let setbacks and bad experiences cripple you into become a passive, worthless little ***** who's afraid to lose some games. You have to take the risks needed to actually win games even if you're playing some dumb ****ter deck against a full fledged combo deck. Like I said my decisions took me to within 2 life points of beating a deck that I had no right sitting down against. Do I wish that the other player had done something right that game? Yeah, obviously. That being said I can't reflect on what happened and be anything other than proud of how and why I played the games the way that I did. I recognized that I wouldn't be able to win later and took steps to win "now." Even though I failed it wasn't due to personal misplay nor bad decision making. My damage goldfish was slower than his Scourglass lock into Thoper Sword. No player could have sat down on that table in my seat and won the game assuming that both other players played exactly the same.
Before you ask I've stopped trying to convince other players to attack obvious threats. Did it when I was younger, don't feel like doing it any more for a host of reasons. I could have won multiple games if I just completely manipulated the newbie player into attacking my friend Carthage with me. No doubt about it. That being said those tactics do more harm than good in the long run in my opinion and so I've long-since stopped employing them.
Oh, I still think that 3 player FFAs are the work of Satan. Just throwing that out there.
Nov 1, 2013I don't agree that discard requires any maindeck cards. I don't agree with any aspect your assessment actually. As someone who's been playing Black decks for the better part of 13 years I can tell you that there are tons of reasons why Discard is pretty bad.Posted in: Cz Blog
First of all discard can't stop topdecks and each opponent gets to topdeck a card each and every turn. In that sense I don't understand why you're suggesting that anyone needs maindeck answers to discard. Decks cannot function? Why not? You're still drawing cards and casting spells. How is that not a functioning deck? Now, is it fun to discard spells? Nope. But like... what is fun? Having your creatures die to removal? Get countered? Have your stuff milled? Take damage? Is anything "fun" other than favorable (for you) interactions from your opponents? There is nothing "negative" that's fun in Magic. Losing anything for any reason sucks. I don't see what makes discard so special. I find discard to be incredibly weak because it doesn't affect anything on the board, it doesn't address topdecks and it's a deaddraw later on when everyone is in topdeck mode. It has tons of weaknesses in that sense. It's not at all the same thing as having 90% of your spells countered. You're drawing a spell ~50% of the time and that spell is immune to discard. Counters and removal could interact with it however. There are massive trade-offs that you're ignoring.
Here's what usually happens in practice. N players are drawing cards that they can immediately play whereas 1 player is eventually doing the same except that he's ripping into discard spells which are, for all intents and purposes, pretty worthless after a certain point. Moreover that player is doing things that actively annoy people and that don't impact the board. That player proceeds to get crushed. It's not a winning strategy. Your topdecks are weaker, you make everyone your enemy and you can never change the fact that people are drawing a card each and every turn that they can immediately play. Since that's going to be a spell ~50% of the time there's just no way that discard figures to oppress a multiplayer table.
With respect to discarding lands, again, I don't get it. With what? 3+ mana spells at best? Even then for 3 mana you're forcing one chosen discard at best if you're talking about a multi-target spell. That's probably something against the all 8 drop deck but I mean that's hardly oppressive against a "normal" deck. Good global discard only shows up at 3+ CMC and I mean it's not like you're casting a global Hymn to Tourach for 4 mana or anything. Hitting lands... I don't see it. What cards are you even referencing? It would basically have to be a single target spell such as Hymn or Mind Twist to actually mana screw someone. Unnerve and Necrogen Mists aren't going to get the job done.
And like, again, all you have to do is discard spells, keep lands and topdeck spells. That's how you beat discard. That's how you've always beaten discard. You just pitch your expensive stuff, establish your mana base and beat the decks by having strong topdecks and a higher threat density. You should only get mana screwed if you make poor decisions that rely on ripping lands every turn or some crap.
I dunno, I'm probably in the minority but I'm not in the business of telling people that they should avoid underpowered strategies. The only discard spell that I've seen be somewhat problematic at times is Myojin of Night's Reach because you can't really interact with that kind of effect. Unnerve is annoying but I mean no deck needs a maindeck answer to it. Most of the other discard isn't really even playable or it works in specific archetypes. Stuff like Smallpox, Pox, Necrogen Mistss, etc. are bad in most decks but work well in Prison decks but I mean those aren't the same thing as generic discard decks in my mind.
Actually I think that I have a better way to explain it. People are always going to play decks that are annoying and bad. There isn't anything that you or I can do to stop that. I personally don't see these decks as a problem though because they rarely-if-ever win games. That's the big equalizer that serves to keep them in check. The problem decks, in my mind, are the ones that are annoying and extremely powerful. Those are the ones that can make the game tough to play at times. If someone wants to play a mono-Red burn deck that kills one player and loses 100% of the time, so be it. Yes it's moronic that someone would choose to run something like that but I mean you can't stop people from playing bad king-maker decks. It's unreasonable to expect all players of all skill levels to adopt the "all goodstuffs all the time" mantra that people such as myself have adopted. Mill, Burn, Discard, Counter, etc. decks annoy people, sure, but the fact that they're inherently weak strategies means that you can't really moan about them too too much. I don't think that it's right to just say "only player creatures and removal because that's fun" because the reality is that it's not. Different people like different things. You have to use a light touch and give people as much freedom as possible. The purpose of this article, for me, is to hopefully keep oppressively powerful strategies from dominating a table while also addressing the common concern of "time." If a deck doesn't consistently win in a non-interactive and unfun way then it's fine. If a deck doesn't hemorrhage time then it's fine. I'm not going to nitpick over every little thing that's somewhat unfun because I don't think that anyone should.
Also, before anyone addresses my comment about "time" cards, I would basically say "keep your mouth shut until you've played a game with 3+ active Tops with shuffle effects." I realize that some of you have had a 1 and MAYBE even 2 Top game but I'm doubting that many of you have ever seen a 6 Top game. No one who has would question this concern for an instant. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Even if my meta is unusually large there's enough 4+ player metas out there and no one should ever have to sit through a 4+ Top game. The fact that card is expensive and not always played is irrelevant because it could be. "Ban lists" aren't about what people are doing but what they could be doing.
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