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  • posted a message on Fires of invention deck
    A couple of things:

    Fae of Wishes is a legitimate 2 drop so this deck has more early game than it otherwise seems. You can and should run it out on turn 2 as a 1/4 flying blocker when needed. It's leagues better than things like Bonecrusher Giant which I view as unplayable.

    Sphinx of Lost Truths does help you find Fires. Why wouldn't it? You can cast it on turn 5 and dig 3 cards for one while simultaneously putting a flying 3/5 blocker into play. You're not required to Kick it.

    Godo, Bandit Warlord + Helm of the Host is the "good" win condition for the deck. Cast Fires, cast Godo, tutor + Equip, send your Token into battle, repeat until the entire table is dead. Easy turn 6 kill that only requires 2 deckslots total and that kills from a (nearly) empty board (save Fires).

    Rite of Replication is a bonkers 5 drop for the deck since you can cast + kick it on turn 5 after you've stuck a Fire. Copying 5 of anything tends to be fantastic.

    In terms of a decklist, assuming no Vintage cards:



    Something close to this would be my staring list. I know Gemstone Caverns isn't exactly cheap but I own 4 and typically play them in all of my decks. It's also amazing with Fires which requires actual lands as opposed to generic ramp making it a functional 0 mana Time Walk. They're not required though. Brainstorm + Fetchlands can be replaced by Ponder/Preordain + No Fetchlands if you don't have any. I'd opt for Ponder over Preordain since it sees up-to 4 cards whereas Preordain only sees up-to 3 but either would work fine.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Fires of invention deck
    Quote from Kain123 »

    You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game.


    I disagree. Lim-Dûl's Vault is a 2-drop that all-but guarantees a turn 4 Fires of Invention so there's realistically nothing better to be casting on that turn. After all, not only does it find Fires + the lands to cast it but you can also stack your library to ensure you don't draw Fires until the turn that you're looking to cast it (to dodge discard). Dimir House Guard does the same thing on 3 CMC and, because Transmute isn't a spell, enables you to go Transmute -> Mastermind's Acquisition -> [ANY SPELL] once you have a Fires out. Between 4x DHG and 4x Mastermind's Acquisition you're drawing into 8 copies of [ANY SPELL IN THE GAME] once you have a Fires out which is nuts. Moreover, while 12x Fires of Invention may be overkill in a vacuum having this many virtual copies means that removal doesn't especially bother you. This deck struggles to play Magic without one since your spells become far too expensive so it behooves to go all-in on playing as many copies as possible.

    I'll note that I play Massacre in all of my Dimir House Guard decks since it enables you to transform it into an Infest should you need some interaction on turn 3. It's a low-opportunity cost way to add some cheap interaction to the list.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Discussion: Recent Mulligan Changes and their Impact on Multiplayer
    Smart players know better...


    I agree with most of what you said but take issue with this statement. I personally don't adhere to the "bolt the bird" mindset in multiplayer because it tends to be a losing/kingmaker line as opposed to being something that's actively good for you. Spot removal isn't very good in multiplayer due to the increased number of players which means that you're typically forced to play a small quantity of cheap + versatile removal spells to give you outs against oppressive bombs, combos, overpowered engines, etc. So if you use your one and only Swords to Plowshares to kill a Llanowar Elves then your shields are down, possibly for the rest of the game. That's a bad place to be and it's why I don't think that "bolting the bird" rings true in MP. Rather, the line that wins you the highest quantity of games on average will be to save it for that Crypt Ghast, Consecrated Sphinx or in response to that Splinter Twin on Deceiver Exarch.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Discussion: Recent Mulligan Changes and their Impact on Multiplayer
    I assume when you do this it is because in the majority of your brews these are the optimal cards for those CMC costs unless another niche card is needed..


    3 reasons:

    Reason #1 is exactly what you said; they're typically optimal.

    Reason #2 is because it's significantly easier to make good decks weaker than it is to make bad decks stronger. Starting with a solid base and dialing it back as needed is significantly easier for a newer players to figure out than starting with a weak base and trying to build it up. Good cards are also easy to trade/sell whereas bad cards are functionally worthless which makes moving into other decks easier.

    Reason #3 is because 99% of your suggestions are completely ignored so it isn't worth your time to put a ton of time and effort into any one deck. As such I'll often default to basic curves like Cavaliers, Titans, Primordials and Forces because it's always going to be reasonably competitive regardless of the number of players involved and it's not going to expend much mental energy.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Discussion: Recent Mulligan Changes and their Impact on Multiplayer
    That being said, all the mulligans in the world aren't always able to overcome variance and multiple opponents.


    I want to quickly clarify that this has nothing to do with overall win % as far as I'm concerned. The fact that everyone gets to take advantage of these rules means that everyone more-or-less benefits equally. Player skill and deckbuilding come into play obviously but those aren't quantifiable variables. All told I don't think that this causes people to win more or less than they otherwise would/should.

    What does bother me is when both Green players at the table open with turn 0 OuAT, turn 1 Elf, turn 2 three drop almost every single game. And I'm absolutely including myself in there so this isn't a "screw everyone else" complaint. I don't enjoy the fact that I have to build my decks that way but I'm still going to do it if it's optimal. When multiple people are making the exact same openers game after game it no longer feels like you're playing unique games of Magic. Rather, it feels like you're stuck playing the exact same game. That's what really bothers me about the free MP mulligan, the London mulligan and OuaT combined.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Discussion: Recent Mulligan Changes and their Impact on Multiplayer
    Evening everyone! I thought I'd kick off a discussion on something that's been on my mind for quite some time now that's recently been exacerbated by Once Upon a Time. Part of what's caused me to lose interest in Magic over the past year is all of the changes to the mulligan system and how that's impacted multiplayer magic as a whole. I find myself playing the same games against the same openers far more often than I'd like to the point where I sometimes feel as though I'm palming the perfect 7 on my lap. After all, let's analyze what we have access to:

    1. We draw our initial hand of 7 cards and see if it has enough of what we're looking for. We've seen 7 card.
    2. If not, we ship it back and draw another hand of 7 at no penalty. Hooray for free multiplayer mulligan! We've seen 14 card.
    3. Still not good enough? No problem! Just draw another 7 and put back the worst card. Let's say we keep. We've seen 21 card.
    4. Game starts. Turn 1 we draw our card which you always do in multiplayer even if you're on the play. We've seen 22 card.
    5. Before even playing our first land we cast Once Upon a Time. We've seen 27 card.

    Congratulations! We're turn 1 into the game, on the play, we've spent 0 mana and we've seen upwards of 27 cards in our 6-7 card hand. Earlier I joked about how it feels like you're palming the perfect 7 but it's disturbingly close to being true. With this much control over your opening hands and draws there's no compelling reason to keep anything that isn't a busted 7 because if you want it you're going to get it the overwhelming # of the time. You have every reason to abuse broken lands like Gaea's Cradle, Cloudpost, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Urza's Tower, Field of the Dead etc. and/or go for those busted 1 -> 3 openers via mana dorks. You know, Arboreal Grazer/Elvish Mystic/Llanowar Elves into Runic Armasaur/Elvish Rejuvenator/Llanowar Tribe.

    Moreover, none of this even takes into consideration cards like Gemstone Caverns, Serum Powder and Leylines which further exacerbate the power of the recent mulligan changes. These are cards with (potentially) extremely powerful effects and I dislike how "free" they feel to add to your decks. Leyline of Abundance is particularly obnoxious when paired with Once Upon a Time because not only can you reliably find a mana dork to cast on turn 1 but OuaT can also help locate things like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx which can enable completely absurd turn 3 wins off of things like turn 2 Nissa, Who Shakes the World and other nonsense. Even putting Abundance aside for the time being Gemstone Caverns is functionally a Mox Diamond that isn't a dead draw past the first copy and tends to be an auto 4-of in my lists as a result. Serum Powder can dial combo decks up to 11 because it all-but guarantees that you'll see your key card in your opening hand. So if I want to go turn 0 Gemstone Caverns, turn 1 Waste Not, turn 2 Dark Deal I can. The other Leylines are also pretty busted because not only are you getting a powerful spell for free but you're also getting permanents/devotion for things like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. And with Leyline of the Void I can even add Helm of Obedience to my deck which suddenly reads "5 mana, tap, kill target player" and that's just completely free if I want to include it. There's so many upsides and so few drawbacks.

    I'm curious what everyone else's experiences have been with the changes to mulligans and/or the introduction of Once Upon a Time. I can't say that I'm a fan but at the same time I also don't think that anything is going to change anytime soon. My concern is that I'll stop playing 60 card Magic altogether if I'm replaying the same game with the exact same sequences over and over again because what am I even doing at that point? Is it still a game? Am I still making decisions? It sure doesn't feel like it sometimes.

    Finally, while I acknowledge that I can choose to "not do something" the reality is that I never will. I'm aware that I can choose to not take free mulligans, there's no gun to my head, but if I think it's optimal then I'm going to do it. Same thing with Once Upon a Time. I'm not legally compelled to play 4 copies in all of my Green decks but if I think that it's optimal then I'm going to include them. That's the kind of person that I am. My argument is that these rules and cards make the game significantly worse, not better, and so I'm voicing my opinion that I'd like to see them changed or removed. But, as a competitive player, I'm going to play them if I feel as though they maximize my probability of winning.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Lucky Knights
    So ditch the innkeepers or play both?


    Play both. You want to draw at least 1 copy of either in your opening hand every game. If you're willing to mulligan you can cut down to 6-7 total copies but I typically just play 4 of each because worst-case scenario you can toss extra Innkeepers into the meatgrinder and convert them into other cards. I'd cut all of the Clovers.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Lucky Knights

    Still, feels like the deck needs tweaking though as it feels fragile.


    Agreed. The deck wins when it sticks and keeps an Innkeeper and loses when it doesn't.


    Anyone adding anything "more potent" to their lists?


    Skullclamp, if you're allowed to play it, will turn it into a "real" deck so to speak. The card is absolutely nutty with all of your X/1s, Priests and Rankles. Speaking of which, I've also cut 2x Konrad and 1x Order of Midnight for 3x Rankle, Master of Pranks because Priest + Rankle is fantastic at keeping the board clear. They even kill dumb things likes like Emrakul and Progenitus.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Boros Fires

    I just want to up the power level


    Personally, I find that I crave consistency more than power. The Boros versions of the deck are fine as long as you mulligan properly and draw the right cards but what I wouldn't give for a nice cantrip or Drawn from Dreams type effect. A big part of the appeal of Jeskai is Castle Vantress for card selection let alone all of the amazing Blue spells that you gain access to.

    I'm actually starting to think that this might have to become a Serum Powder deck because it just doesn't do what I want it to unless I have a Fires. Though, I'm starting to lose interest in multiplayer somewhat with all of these mulligan changes because it's starting to feel like I can functionally palm a perfect 7 and play it every game. I might start a thread about it actually.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Boros Fires
    If playing Divine Visitation is it actually better to run Elspeth, knight-Errant for the opportunity to hit that emblem or is it still better to just play Elspeth, sun's champion


    I don't think it matters much one way or another. Any combination in any reasonable quantity should be fine. If I had to rank my choices in a vacuum it would be 4lspeth, DV, 6lspeth but DV pops over to #1 if you add those 2x Westvale Abbeys. That's assuming 4x Assemble though. If you're cutting 2 go with Elspeths because DV is useless with Luminarch Ascension.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Boros Fires

    I have crap luck that way.


    Preaching to the choir lol. Every time it's cast on me I flip Vampiric Tutor or w/e and every time I hit someone else they get something dumb like Sun Titan. I still run it because "it's the right thing to do" but I know what you mean about feeling cursed -_-.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Boros Fires
    Since it wasn't in my original reply I'll repost it here: Westvale Abbey is a low-opportunity cost way to turn 1/1s into a threat that matters and this deck can easily support 4. Ormendahl, Profane Prince doesn't give players much breathing room.

    Godo and Helm go infinite right?


    Yep. It's a mindless 1-card kill on turn 6.

    Jokulhaups seems like a nombo with Fires of invention?


    It is, but that doesn't matter as long as you win. Turn 6 Luminarch Ascension/Assemble the Legion/Chandra, Awakened Inferno/etc. + Jokulhaups functionally ends the game a huge % of the time so it doesn't matter if Fires stops working after that. In my circles we don't even play those games out; we scoop and move on to the next one.

    I mean, if I am putting blue duals of some sort in the deck, I really should just go Jeskai and if I am going three colors, I feel like Grixis is stronger


    The deck certainly gets better the more colors that you play. I too wish that Boros has a usable draw spell. Maybe Endless Atlas + Fetches but even that's kinda meh. Idol of Oblivion is neat, especially if you add a couple more enablers like Kher Keep or whatever. Still doesn't feel great though.

    Oh man. Replace Fires of Invention with Smothering Tithe and then add Idol of Oblivion. Now you have my attention! We can even get Dockside Extortionist in the 2 CMC slot as a blocker... a nice $15.00 1/2 blocker :P.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Boros Fires

    [T]he deck needs either another finisher, OR it needs something to convert those 1/1 tokens into something better. Either a divine visitation, anointed procession or cathars' crusade type of effect would work, but I am not sure they warrant a spot.


    If you want the "good" win condition feel free to add Godo, Bandit Warlord + Helm of the Host since it's a clean 1-card kill on turn 6. If people are going for OTKs themselves then that's likely your best bet. That's the one that I use if I'm trying to win.

    Westvale Abbey is a low-opportunity cost way to turn 1/1s into a threat that matters and this deck can easily support 4. Ormendahl, Profane Prince doesn't give players much breathing room.

    Alternatively you could try something with some combo of token payoffs, Tilonalli's Summoner and Assemble the Legion. Any payoff would work just fine; Impact Tremors, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Divine Visitation, Cathars' Crusade, etc. Other options include things like Rite of the Raging Storm, Cavalier of Flame and/or Jokulhaups style mass removal spells.

    Also, is it just me or is chaos Warp just trash? Both times I used it, it backfired and put better things on the board, /smh


    You could swap it for something like Generous Gift or any other decent piece of removal if you wanted. My meta has cards like Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and Darksteel Forge so I like having access to a catch-all to deal with them. It's also rather spell-based in general which means plenty of whiffs. It's the most popular Red card in EDH for a reason but I'll certainly acknowledge that it won't necessarily work for everyone.

    [D]o I just go Grixis, play 12 tutors and be done with it?


    That's always going to be the most competitive option. This one is an excuse to play Boros Control.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Bringing Back Dragons
    Ruinous Path is fine. Do you have access to any of the decent 2 CMC mana rocks? Mind Stone, Prismatic Lens, Everflowing Chalice, anything? It doesn't have to be Rakdos Signet.

    Just so we're on the same page I said that I liked Goblin Rabblemaster because he pressures players trying to ramp, kills PWers and forces Fogs. I never suggested cutting him. The cards that I don't like are Dragon Fodder and Hordeling Outburst because they're too low impact.

    Creatures that I do like include things like Dire Fleet Daredevil, Gonti, Lord of Luxury and Olivia Voldaren.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from Onering »
    I don't think that this is enough to keep it banned any longer. We already have Meren being repetitive graveyard city...


    Agreed. I draw the comparison to Seasons Past because I'm sure we've all played against the Seasons Past + tutor combo that lets you cast anything in your GY every turn if desired. Including the same spells over and over again. These types of sequences aren't overly problematic in my experience.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
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