4 As Foretold
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 New Gideon
3 Cryptic Command
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Collective Brutality
22 Lands
Essentially you are playing almost purely to get as foretold onto 2, at which point you are casting disruption on their turn or your own.
Sequence would be something like
T1 Push/Visions or just land go.
T2 Mana Leak / Remand / Push / Path / Brutality
T3 As foretold + Lotus Bloom -> Liliana / Gideon ( at this point their board presence will be minimal unless they are playing elves or goblins.
OR
T3 As foretold -> Restore Balance ( since your AV will be coming off soon and your hand suddenly looks pretty good )
T4 Anything including Restore Balance, AV, Lotus Bloom ect. ( You could realistically be in a situation where you cast both Liliana and Gideon on the same turn. Or follow up a restore balance with a liliana/gideon lock on the 1 creature they have )
Notes:
Possibly correct to play 4 Remand and 1 leak instead of 3/2 split since opponent having cards in hand should be mostly irrelevant in the face of a restore balance.
Possibly correct to play 4 path to exile over the push split since their additional lands are mostly irrelevant in the face of restore balance.
Cryptic command could even be replaced with Mana Leaks since restore balance makes paying 3 difficult. However the bounce and tap modes on CC are relevant.
Snapcaster is the best blue creature, and since you can have 1 creature in play it makes sense to keep him.
Gideon and Lili after a restore balance on an Empty or 1 creature board will feel pretty good.
Maybe include serum visions so that you can snap visions off lotus bloom under pressure.
Brutality seems good in certain situations, however I wouldn't go 4 of.
Must have a combo of instants and sorceries to really maximise as foretold
Stay away from multi color spells as a nombo with Bloom.
Hi,
Has anyone actually tries Ancestral Visions as a 3-4 of in Merfolk Sideboard
I mean attrition is one of our worst matchups other than Affinity. We take out our 1 mana Vials anyway and possibly some number of Cursecatchers based on the deck.
Sideboard would look something like
1 Hurkyl's recall
2 Ceremonious Rejection
4 Ancestral Visions
1 Echoing Truth
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
T1 - Land - Go / Serum Visions / Ancestral Visions
T2 - Land - Remand / Manaleak Go
T3 - Land - As foretold -> AV / Lotus Bloom->Gideon/Detention Sphere ( at this point only affinity or zoo could have any board presence )
T4 - Land - Elspeth/Gideon(from Lotus Bloom sac if not on previous turn)+ "<1" spell (cantrip, removal, AV, Retorebalance)
Opponent T4/5 - Mana open for 1 Mana Removal.
Honestly the value a deck like this can get is insane
Restore Balance After path to exile and remand means Paths downside is negated, and they will have more cards in hand due to remand.
I havnt played affinity much but it seems like a win more card in most cases. But it does seem to help against stony silence since it effectively doubles your damage and combos well with Grid.
Match1 : Living End ( Win )
Opponent is new to the deck
G1
I have an Aether Vial on 4 with 2 Reejery ( Holding back a master of pearl trident for 3 turns ) in play after Spell Piercing his first living end. Second living end hits bringing 5 creatures into play but I Vial in a master of waves end of turn and swing with Master+Muta for the last 6 points of damage.
G2
Cruse Catches->SilverGill-> Spreading Seas-> Spreading Seas always keeping Spell Pierce up. The mana denial prevents him from casting living end in time.
Match2 : Abzan ETB ( Loss )
G1 He just outvalues me but I flood ( 3 lands in opener and drawing another 6 off silvergillx3 and spreading seasx2. Never find a lord to actually attack past his threats
G2 Keep a Island + Aethervial hand with only 2 mana lords and silvergills. I flood the board after a chain of Reejery's
G3 Kept an extremely greedy hand with Vial and Silvergills ( two mutavaults ) and fail to draw an island for 7 turns ( also off 3 Silvergills and 3 Spreading Seas )
Match3 : Tron ( Win )
G1 Opponent mulls to 4 but still almost manages to beat me ( 1 color mana short )
G2 T3 Tron with Karn and follow up Ugin
G3 T1 I play island and pass, piercing his Chromatic Sphere. I add a threat to the board every turn and draw some mutavaults. I negate his T3 Karn and follow up with two lords that he couldnt recover from after bouncing his wurmcoil engine with Harbinger
Match4 : Grixis Control
Opponent is new to the deck but has been playing Jund for several years.
G1 He outvalues me with Collected Brutality and Kolaghans Command
G2 I hold back all threats and just spreading seas his lands forcing him to pain himself. T4 I get a chalice of the void which resolves after protecting it from remand with Spell Pierce. I bait out his mana leak and remand with SilverGill and Master of Pearl Trident and follow up with a Thassa. Play reejery which he couldnt remove due to chalice and the scrys draw me all that I want
G3 He removes every threat I play but holds back Tasigur for fear of Harbinger for 4 turns ( attacking only with SNapcaster ) we draw the match.
Overall I felt I made one or two bad decisions:
Not attacking into OStone with Mutavault because I didnt read the nonland part
Poor Mulligan Decisions ( I do this alot, too chicken to mulligan into a better hand )
Notes:
It feels like often I get Spreading Seas but no lords, or I get lords and no Seas. Its just variance I guess but sometimes it really makes matchups difficult. Still thinking about moving to a 6 or 8 seas build.
Chalice of the Void felt pretty great. It shut down a lot of Grixis control and im sure It would be decent against Deaths SHadow and some other decks.
I should start playing dismember in my deck. Too many times I just needed to kill one creature, not interacting with certain threats is game losing, and snag / harbinger is not good enough.
Ceremonious Rejection felt great.
Thassa was as always incredible in the attrition match-ups. So often your spreading seas already put them behind so you can afford to play slower and any lord usually turns Thassa on. Scrys are amazing.
Still thinking how many counter spells are the correct amount
One Mainboard Dispel over one Spell Pierce. Makes Tron matchup a little worse but we should be favored anyway.
Vendilion Clique vs Kira. The Slower the meta is without Abrupt Decay the better Clique seems to be. Clique is also far better against Tron in the mainboard.
Chalice of the Void can be great or irrelevant, sideboard needs serious planning.
Current Sideboard with Stock Merfolk list ( 2 Clique, 1 Dispel, 1-2 Vapor Snag, 1 Spell Pierce as non core, 1 Tidebinder, 2-3 Harbinger )
3x Chalice of the Void ( DS Jund, Zoo, 8Rack )
3x Ceremonious Rejection ( Tron, Affinity, Lantern Control )
1x Pithing Needle
2x Dispel ( Burn, Decks loaded with Instant Speed removal )
1-2x Tidebinder Mage ( DS Jund ?, Zoo, Regular Jund, Abzan Coco ? )
2-3x Relic of Progenitus ( Living End, Snapcaster Decks, Tarmogoyf Decks ?, Dredge )
2x Dismember ( Mirror, Infect, Eldrazi )
Conciderations:
Moving to 8 seas to improve racing ability
Feel Free to Critique the sideboard is very much a work in progress at this point. All I am sure about is 3x Rejection + 3x Chalice + 2 of the Relic of Progenitus. Everything past that needs to be tested.
Non Conventional Card Choices:
4 Spell Pierce - I think people will go killspell crazy initially. Spell Pierce with Curse catcher buys us critical time. The more I have Pierce in hand more more I want more copies.
4 Ceremonius Rejection - Tron, Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge decks like Latern and 8Rack
2 Echoing Truth - General Catchall card, not for specific matchups, comes in based on G1 experience
2 Relic of Progenitus - Dredge isnt dead, snapcaster and goyf are still cards, Living End gains alot in new meta ( assuming people use less grave hate )
1 Thassa, God of the Sea - Any Attrition Matchup
1 Grafdiggers Cage - Same as for Relic, could be cut based on meta
1 Spellskite - Any Targetted removal decks and Boggles
1 Pithing Needle - General Catchall card, not for specific matchups, comes in based on G1 experience
1 Dispel - Any deck with heavy reliance on instant speed pumps/disruption
1 Tidebinder Mage - Zoo, Goyf Decks, Burn
Not sure if Rejection is overkill but it feels like a strict upgrade from Hurkyl's Recall because its a hard counter against Affinity and can be cast T1 over cursecatcher. The fact that you can deploy threats against Tron and hold up mana for most of their deck is good too and the Bridge matchups and try to lock us out.
Keen to test Skaab Ruinator / Clique, though I feel Ruinator might be slightly better.
a.) Ruinator is an extremely fast clock
b.) We are already pretty good against fast combo because we are a blue deck with tons of pressure and Curse Catcher, I would rather have more game against the 200000 removal spells people might be packing. Realistically we could deploy this consistently on T4 because of Vial ( though we probably should still side out some if not all vials in that matchup. ).
c.) Its also flying, and beats everything in the Air, and actually beats almost everything on the ground if you need to block ( Wurmcoil and Primetime excluded )
I think Clique is really good, but that Skaab helps us where we need it.
Havent Posted in a while because I decided to switch to Merfolk ( also couldnt play much MTG the last 7 months ).
I want to address a few points:
1. Fatal Push. This is almost immediately a 4 of mainboard for tokens
a.) We dont care about 5+ CMC creatures because other than a quick Titan, most of those decks are favorable matchups anyway and at the time they land it we will either have a massive advantage or a different removal spell.
b.) Its better than path because its more focused on the T1 black source. Which actually alters how we can set up our mana base.
c.) Path a mana dork ? Or fatal a mana dork. Fatal is more relevant than path for the first 4-5 turns at LEAST. At which point path starts getting better
d.) I would run 4 Fatal Push + 2 Path initially concidering aggro is "slightly" worse off in the meta and will get less free wins off us without considering push's effect on the format.( only considering bans )
2.) Wescoe's build. This is more BW midrange than tokens since there is no Virtues and no Procession in the deck. I have played against a conventional BW tokens deck and Copter was okay.
a.) Wescoe's list might end up being a better version of "tokens". Because it in theory should eat midrange the same was as conventional tokens.
a.1) It has a better Tron, Fish, Elves matchup which is HUGE.
a.2) Its mana base is far less punishing with the likelyhood of more land hate in the format.
a.3) 2 Bitterblossom is now way better with copter, and allows for looting away discard after T5 which are usually dead draws.
a.4) BW have essentially the best modern Planeswalkers, Removal Package, and General Disruption of any color with Fatal Push being printed. ( Image 4 path + 4 push with Liliana and Souls backup in an Aggro / Midrange Meta )
b.) The deck is extremely synergistic without falling flat when you disrupt it.
3.) Copter in conventional BW Tokens.
a.) 4 is too many unless you MB Auriok Champion for whatever reason ( like I do ). Even then I dont believe 4 is the correct number. 3 would be solid.
b.) Is not a 3 drop, therefore its good :D.
c.) Looting ability allows you to load up on Discard without ruining your late game topdecks.
d.) Bitterblossom is now twice or even 3 times as good. Since it essentially gives your token +2+2 and haste, while the rest attack with your Virtues.
e.) Easy on our crap manabase
f.) UW Control, Tron is pretty unfavourable. Copter fixes the UW matchup by essentially giving us 3/3 haste tokens with Bitter blossom.
4.) BW Tokens General Comments
a.) Consealed courtyard makes our mana so good on the easy turns ( no more Fetch, Shock, Thoughtseize to 15 anymore just to see 5 bolts )
b.) Shambling Vent is good. 2-3 is the correct number I rate because we have EVEN more to do on T1.
c.) If the meta becomes Tron, Burn, Junk we are actually in a very good spot since new Fast Mana and Push means Burn might actually be a favorable matchup, Junk is Auto Win, and Copter builds can help us finally have game against Tron. The likely uptick in Affinity is just a bonus for us and infect no longer has the "Tokens is a bad matchup but I play infect so yolo free wins because T3 kills. Overall the bannings were extremely favorable for us. Along with mana that allows us to run GQ or Tec without having to drop spectral proc.
d.) Git probe ban, and Push printing might inadvertently mean less abrupt decay. Which is great. However Golgari charm now becomes much better as an overall card for mainboard rock decks.
5.) Stockpile.... you must mean Pile'O'Stock.
a.) Not sure how anyone thinks this is playable. Revolt triggers once a turn no matter how many permanents leave.
b.) I cant Imagine ever wanting to sac a creature unless it has an immediate impact on me winning the game. Its far to slow and doesnt help in our difficult matchups. Rather just run Phyrexian Arena and draw 2 cards a turn.
6.) Collective Brutality
b.) I believe our early game is already fixed with nerfs to aggro, push and better mana. At most i would test as a 1 of since tokens often wont have a card to discard mid and lategame, and early game im not entirely convinced its better than just casting copter/virtue/more removal.
7.) How I am building tokens for new meta
Conventional BW Tokens
No Sideboard yet. Extremely meta dependent.
Again, push changes a lot. We might not even need Stony Silence anymore. It might just end up being Burn hate and Ghostly Prison for all aggro together. Then just Tron and combo hate for the rest since midrange will still be easy.
After play this deck for 2 years. i would rate vault as one of the best cards in the deck. It crushes any midrange deck, with Bitterblossom it nets you life. You virtually unkillable Auriok Champ suddenly because more than just a damage wall.
Playing Hero of Bladehold depends on your meta honestly. If you have 3 flex spots you dont need its great for bringing in post board. It is also way better in a more controlling build with 8 discard and 6-8 killspells because you make your opponent discard their removal, play bladehold, and kill the one threat in the way. If bladehold attacks the 2nd time you usually just win the game.
I would drop both Winbrisk's before i drop vault. Windbrisks loose to opposing GQ's and Eldrazi processors, and comes in tapped.
As for Discard=7 + Killspell=6. I ran than for 2 years. Since switching to Discard=5+Killspell=8or9 my win% improved. Its partly due to my meta, but the topdeck situation happens most of the time since our decks cant kill consistently before turn 7. So ill rather kill a tarmogoyf they cast than discard it. Less T1 discard also makes the mana much easier.
The only issues with less discard is the uninteractive creatureless combo decks, but honestly we lose to those anyway without the Raise the alarm build because we are too slow.
THe original reason i got flagstones is to run more GQ, but then Auriok needs to be dropped or i need to run 26 mana. In every test with Cho's mana base it noticed the deck being way less consistant.
As for the discard / removal split, ive noticed that anything over 6 discard spells starts giving much smaller incremental gains, because i dont get much more T1 discard, and at turn 6+ the discard is terrible to topdeck, where a killspell usually wins the game by being able to race a seige rhino ect. The deck ends up playing out more like Jund, and your strongest matchups end up being GW Hatebears, Jund, Junk, Affinity, Delver Variants which is my Meta. Never played against tron, even though many people own the deck, everyone is always playing something else.
As for the fetches, its because I need it for a T1 discard. I have never in 100's of games at any point stuggled with 8 fetches vs 6, and it never felt like it was losing me the game by drawing a fetch vs anything else. IF i had Marsh flats, 1 more Fetid Heath i would drop to 6-7 fetches.
Flagstones is mostly just a test. Having Double Flagstones and a fetch in your opening hand feels good. Otherwise its just a land that loses us the game harder against bloodmoon.
2x Fetid Heath is advisable, but i dont have more, or any Marsh Flats
Auriok Champion - Cut down from 3 to 2 because less twin, i keep it in mostly for burn and general aggro matchups, but may end up dropping it for more timely reinforcements or ZPersecution main board.
Elspeth, Night Errant - Works well with Autiok champ and Reinforcements with the Jump ability. Might actually be better than a 3rd Sorin.
Dismember, Slaughter Pact and Go for the Throat might just become 3 more Doomblades because Twin is gone, dismember is bad against the big mana decks and painful against aggro. Go for the Throat might be too risky mainboard with affinity and Tron. Slaughter Pact might just be Irrelevant since it doesnt stop any real combo decks ( we have good matchups against Kiki Chord with 9 killspells ).
Sideboard:
First 4 is obvious.
Ghostly Prison is for Merfolk which isnt a great matchup. Helps against all aggro decks, but need to figure out the sideboard plan for what to take out. Might not actually have enough cards to remove.
Mark of Asylum - all the damage sweepers.
Bitterblossom - Any midrange or control matchup ( Jeskai and Grixis Control might have an upswing ( but we have a decent matchup against both already )
ZP - Aggro Matchups and Affinity ( might be pointless since we have too much cards that are already good against affinity and Delver is an autowin matchup for us anyway. Seems way way better in the Raise the Alarm Build where you are actively trying to end the game by turn 5 rather than control and get advantage over time.
3 Flex Spot - Should probably just be graveyard hate like 2x Relic + 1x Rest in Peace because we just loose to storm and living end. If the ZP's are dropped we have 5 flex spots which should probably just be 2-3 Hero of Bladehold, or additional discard spells to help us against Ad Naus and Tron.
Need to run a few mock sideboard examples to see if my sideboard is just too specific. Right now the Affinity/Tron/Zoo/Infect/Burn/Merfolk fear is real, even though we actually have decent matchups against all but Tron and Merfolk.
ADMIN !! - I believe it may start becoming worth while to add more information in the card choices spoiler.
Basically it simply indicates why a card is good for tokens, but doesnt really mention when to play X over Y in specific Meta's
Basically
Auriok Champ
- Strong vs Twin,Burn,Zoo,Affinity,Delver Variants,Jund,Abzan,Martyr Life
- Weak vs Merfolk,Ad Naus,Infect,Storm,Tron,Hatebear
Works well with Bitterblossom, Timely Reinforcements, Thoughtseize, Lilina ( because double black mana and can protect Lili ), Dismember
Go for the Throat
- Strong vs Decks that rely on Spellskite to protect combo. Fine vs everything else
- Weak vs Affinity, Tron.
Chose over Doomblade if you meta is Eldrazi black heavy.
This way players understand WHY certain card choices are affected heavily by Meta ( BW tokens is a Meta deck similar to hatebears, which is why pro tour sees more BW tokens in one event than most of the rest combined, because its "easier" to meta and next level the players. Its too low power to really just go into a GPT consistently and do well because of power level and having too many bad matchups even post board. )
4 As Foretold
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 New Gideon
3 Cryptic Command
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Collective Brutality
22 Lands
Essentially you are playing almost purely to get as foretold onto 2, at which point you are casting disruption on their turn or your own.
Sequence would be something like
T1 Push/Visions or just land go.
T2 Mana Leak / Remand / Push / Path / Brutality
T3 As foretold + Lotus Bloom -> Liliana / Gideon ( at this point their board presence will be minimal unless they are playing elves or goblins.
OR
T3 As foretold -> Restore Balance ( since your AV will be coming off soon and your hand suddenly looks pretty good )
T4 Anything including Restore Balance, AV, Lotus Bloom ect. ( You could realistically be in a situation where you cast both Liliana and Gideon on the same turn. Or follow up a restore balance with a liliana/gideon lock on the 1 creature they have )
Notes:
Possibly correct to play 4 Remand and 1 leak instead of 3/2 split since opponent having cards in hand should be mostly irrelevant in the face of a restore balance.
Possibly correct to play 4 path to exile over the push split since their additional lands are mostly irrelevant in the face of restore balance.
Cryptic command could even be replaced with Mana Leaks since restore balance makes paying 3 difficult. However the bounce and tap modes on CC are relevant.
Snapcaster is the best blue creature, and since you can have 1 creature in play it makes sense to keep him.
Gideon and Lili after a restore balance on an Empty or 1 creature board will feel pretty good.
Maybe include serum visions so that you can snap visions off lotus bloom under pressure.
Brutality seems good in certain situations, however I wouldn't go 4 of.
Must have a combo of instants and sorceries to really maximise as foretold
Stay away from multi color spells as a nombo with Bloom.
Has anyone actually tries Ancestral Visions as a 3-4 of in Merfolk Sideboard
I mean attrition is one of our worst matchups other than Affinity. We take out our 1 mana Vials anyway and possibly some number of Cursecatchers based on the deck.
Sideboard would look something like
1 Hurkyl's recall
2 Ceremonious Rejection
4 Ancestral Visions
1 Echoing Truth
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1-2 Vendilion Clique/Tidebinder Mage
1-2 Counterspells/Dismember
Do you even still need Chalice of the Void if you use AV? Generally Chalice is on X=0 or X=1 for combo or 1 mana removal anyway.
T2 - Land - Remand / Manaleak Go
T3 - Land - As foretold -> AV / Lotus Bloom->Gideon/Detention Sphere ( at this point only affinity or zoo could have any board presence )
T4 - Land - Elspeth/Gideon(from Lotus Bloom sac if not on previous turn)+ "<1" spell (cantrip, removal, AV, Retorebalance)
Opponent T4/5 - Mana open for 1 Mana Removal.
Honestly the value a deck like this can get is insane
Restore Balance After path to exile and remand means Paths downside is negated, and they will have more cards in hand due to remand.
2-1-1
Match1 : Living End ( Win )
Opponent is new to the deck
G1
I have an Aether Vial on 4 with 2 Reejery ( Holding back a master of pearl trident for 3 turns ) in play after Spell Piercing his first living end. Second living end hits bringing 5 creatures into play but I Vial in a master of waves end of turn and swing with Master+Muta for the last 6 points of damage.
G2
Cruse Catches->SilverGill-> Spreading Seas-> Spreading Seas always keeping Spell Pierce up. The mana denial prevents him from casting living end in time.
Match2 : Abzan ETB ( Loss )
G1 He just outvalues me but I flood ( 3 lands in opener and drawing another 6 off silvergillx3 and spreading seasx2. Never find a lord to actually attack past his threats
G2 Keep a Island + Aethervial hand with only 2 mana lords and silvergills. I flood the board after a chain of Reejery's
G3 Kept an extremely greedy hand with Vial and Silvergills ( two mutavaults ) and fail to draw an island for 7 turns ( also off 3 Silvergills and 3 Spreading Seas )
Match3 : Tron ( Win )
G1 Opponent mulls to 4 but still almost manages to beat me ( 1 color mana short )
G2 T3 Tron with Karn and follow up Ugin
G3 T1 I play island and pass, piercing his Chromatic Sphere. I add a threat to the board every turn and draw some mutavaults. I negate his T3 Karn and follow up with two lords that he couldnt recover from after bouncing his wurmcoil engine with Harbinger
Match4 : Grixis Control
Opponent is new to the deck but has been playing Jund for several years.
G1 He outvalues me with Collected Brutality and Kolaghans Command
G2 I hold back all threats and just spreading seas his lands forcing him to pain himself. T4 I get a chalice of the void which resolves after protecting it from remand with Spell Pierce. I bait out his mana leak and remand with SilverGill and Master of Pearl Trident and follow up with a Thassa. Play reejery which he couldnt remove due to chalice and the scrys draw me all that I want
G3 He removes every threat I play but holds back Tasigur for fear of Harbinger for 4 turns ( attacking only with SNapcaster ) we draw the match.
Overall I felt I made one or two bad decisions:
Not attacking into OStone with Mutavault because I didnt read the nonland part
Poor Mulligan Decisions ( I do this alot, too chicken to mulligan into a better hand )
Notes:
It feels like often I get Spreading Seas but no lords, or I get lords and no Seas. Its just variance I guess but sometimes it really makes matchups difficult. Still thinking about moving to a 6 or 8 seas build.
Chalice of the Void felt pretty great. It shut down a lot of Grixis control and im sure It would be decent against Deaths SHadow and some other decks.
I should start playing dismember in my deck. Too many times I just needed to kill one creature, not interacting with certain threats is game losing, and snag / harbinger is not good enough.
Ceremonious Rejection felt great.
Thassa was as always incredible in the attrition match-ups. So often your spreading seas already put them behind so you can afford to play slower and any lord usually turns Thassa on. Scrys are amazing.
Still thinking how many counter spells are the correct amount
One Mainboard Dispel over one Spell Pierce. Makes Tron matchup a little worse but we should be favored anyway.
Vendilion Clique vs Kira. The Slower the meta is without Abrupt Decay the better Clique seems to be. Clique is also far better against Tron in the mainboard.
Chalice of the Void can be great or irrelevant, sideboard needs serious planning.
Current Sideboard with Stock Merfolk list ( 2 Clique, 1 Dispel, 1-2 Vapor Snag, 1 Spell Pierce as non core, 1 Tidebinder, 2-3 Harbinger )
3x Chalice of the Void ( DS Jund, Zoo, 8Rack )
3x Ceremonious Rejection ( Tron, Affinity, Lantern Control )
1x Pithing Needle
2x Dispel ( Burn, Decks loaded with Instant Speed removal )
1-2x Tidebinder Mage ( DS Jund ?, Zoo, Regular Jund, Abzan Coco ? )
2-3x Relic of Progenitus ( Living End, Snapcaster Decks, Tarmogoyf Decks ?, Dredge )
2x Dismember ( Mirror, Infect, Eldrazi )
Conciderations:
Moving to 8 seas to improve racing ability
Feel Free to Critique the sideboard is very much a work in progress at this point. All I am sure about is 3x Rejection + 3x Chalice + 2 of the Relic of Progenitus. Everything past that needs to be tested.
Looking for someone to critique my list
4 Mutavault
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
14 Island
Creatures:
4 Curse Catcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of Pearl Trident
3 Merrow Reejery
3 Master of Waves
2 Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
3 Harbinger of Tides
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Spreading Seas
Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial
4 Ceremonius Rejection
2 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dispel
1 Tidebinder Mage
Non Conventional Card Choices:
4 Spell Pierce - I think people will go killspell crazy initially. Spell Pierce with Curse catcher buys us critical time. The more I have Pierce in hand more more I want more copies.
4 Ceremonius Rejection - Tron, Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge decks like Latern and 8Rack
2 Echoing Truth - General Catchall card, not for specific matchups, comes in based on G1 experience
2 Relic of Progenitus - Dredge isnt dead, snapcaster and goyf are still cards, Living End gains alot in new meta ( assuming people use less grave hate )
1 Thassa, God of the Sea - Any Attrition Matchup
1 Grafdiggers Cage - Same as for Relic, could be cut based on meta
1 Spellskite - Any Targetted removal decks and Boggles
1 Pithing Needle - General Catchall card, not for specific matchups, comes in based on G1 experience
1 Dispel - Any deck with heavy reliance on instant speed pumps/disruption
1 Tidebinder Mage - Zoo, Goyf Decks, Burn
Not sure if Rejection is overkill but it feels like a strict upgrade from Hurkyl's Recall because its a hard counter against Affinity and can be cast T1 over cursecatcher. The fact that you can deploy threats against Tron and hold up mana for most of their deck is good too and the Bridge matchups and try to lock us out.
Keen to test Skaab Ruinator / Clique, though I feel Ruinator might be slightly better.
a.) Ruinator is an extremely fast clock
b.) We are already pretty good against fast combo because we are a blue deck with tons of pressure and Curse Catcher, I would rather have more game against the 200000 removal spells people might be packing. Realistically we could deploy this consistently on T4 because of Vial ( though we probably should still side out some if not all vials in that matchup. ).
c.) Its also flying, and beats everything in the Air, and actually beats almost everything on the ground if you need to block ( Wurmcoil and Primetime excluded )
I think Clique is really good, but that Skaab helps us where we need it.
I want to address a few points:
1. Fatal Push. This is almost immediately a 4 of mainboard for tokens
a.) We dont care about 5+ CMC creatures because other than a quick Titan, most of those decks are favorable matchups anyway and at the time they land it we will either have a massive advantage or a different removal spell.
b.) Its better than path because its more focused on the T1 black source. Which actually alters how we can set up our mana base.
c.) Path a mana dork ? Or fatal a mana dork. Fatal is more relevant than path for the first 4-5 turns at LEAST. At which point path starts getting better
d.) I would run 4 Fatal Push + 2 Path initially concidering aggro is "slightly" worse off in the meta and will get less free wins off us without considering push's effect on the format.( only considering bans )
2.) Wescoe's build. This is more BW midrange than tokens since there is no Virtues and no Procession in the deck. I have played against a conventional BW tokens deck and Copter was okay.
a.) Wescoe's list might end up being a better version of "tokens". Because it in theory should eat midrange the same was as conventional tokens.
a.1) It has a better Tron, Fish, Elves matchup which is HUGE.
a.2) Its mana base is far less punishing with the likelyhood of more land hate in the format.
a.3) 2 Bitterblossom is now way better with copter, and allows for looting away discard after T5 which are usually dead draws.
a.4) BW have essentially the best modern Planeswalkers, Removal Package, and General Disruption of any color with Fatal Push being printed. ( Image 4 path + 4 push with Liliana and Souls backup in an Aggro / Midrange Meta )
b.) The deck is extremely synergistic without falling flat when you disrupt it.
3.) Copter in conventional BW Tokens.
a.) 4 is too many unless you MB Auriok Champion for whatever reason ( like I do ). Even then I dont believe 4 is the correct number. 3 would be solid.
b.) Is not a 3 drop, therefore its good :D.
c.) Looting ability allows you to load up on Discard without ruining your late game topdecks.
d.) Bitterblossom is now twice or even 3 times as good. Since it essentially gives your token +2+2 and haste, while the rest attack with your Virtues.
e.) Easy on our crap manabase
f.) UW Control, Tron is pretty unfavourable. Copter fixes the UW matchup by essentially giving us 3/3 haste tokens with Bitter blossom.
4.) BW Tokens General Comments
a.) Consealed courtyard makes our mana so good on the easy turns ( no more Fetch, Shock, Thoughtseize to 15 anymore just to see 5 bolts )
b.) Shambling Vent is good. 2-3 is the correct number I rate because we have EVEN more to do on T1.
c.) If the meta becomes Tron, Burn, Junk we are actually in a very good spot since new Fast Mana and Push means Burn might actually be a favorable matchup, Junk is Auto Win, and Copter builds can help us finally have game against Tron. The likely uptick in Affinity is just a bonus for us and infect no longer has the "Tokens is a bad matchup but I play infect so yolo free wins because T3 kills. Overall the bannings were extremely favorable for us. Along with mana that allows us to run GQ or Tec without having to drop spectral proc.
d.) Git probe ban, and Push printing might inadvertently mean less abrupt decay. Which is great. However Golgari charm now becomes much better as an overall card for mainboard rock decks.
5.) Stockpile.... you must mean Pile'O'Stock.
a.) Not sure how anyone thinks this is playable. Revolt triggers once a turn no matter how many permanents leave.
b.) I cant Imagine ever wanting to sac a creature unless it has an immediate impact on me winning the game. Its far to slow and doesnt help in our difficult matchups. Rather just run Phyrexian Arena and draw 2 cards a turn.
6.) Collective Brutality
b.) I believe our early game is already fixed with nerfs to aggro, push and better mana. At most i would test as a 1 of since tokens often wont have a card to discard mid and lategame, and early game im not entirely convinced its better than just casting copter/virtue/more removal.
7.) How I am building tokens for new meta
Conventional BW Tokens
2 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Fetid Heath
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Token Producers / Creatures:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom
4 Spectral Procession
3 Smugglers Copter
3 Auriok Champion
1 Timely Reinforcements
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Sorin, Sollemn Visitor
No Sideboard yet. Extremely meta dependent.
Again, push changes a lot. We might not even need Stony Silence anymore. It might just end up being Burn hate and Ghostly Prison for all aggro together. Then just Tron and combo hate for the rest since midrange will still be easy.
Adjustments to Wescoe's list.
4 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Disruption:
2 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Smugglers Copter
4 Lingering Souls
3 Blade Splicer
2 Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Sollemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
1 Thoughtseize
3 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Disenchant
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Nevermore
2 Timely Reinforcements
Final Thoughts: Mirran Crusader and Blood Baron of Vizkopa will be nearly auto win in many matchups in the new modern.
As for Discard=7 + Killspell=6. I ran than for 2 years. Since switching to Discard=5+Killspell=8or9 my win% improved. Its partly due to my meta, but the topdeck situation happens most of the time since our decks cant kill consistently before turn 7. So ill rather kill a tarmogoyf they cast than discard it. Less T1 discard also makes the mana much easier.
The only issues with less discard is the uninteractive creatureless combo decks, but honestly we lose to those anyway without the Raise the alarm build because we are too slow.
As for the discard / removal split, ive noticed that anything over 6 discard spells starts giving much smaller incremental gains, because i dont get much more T1 discard, and at turn 6+ the discard is terrible to topdeck, where a killspell usually wins the game by being able to race a seige rhino ect. The deck ends up playing out more like Jund, and your strongest matchups end up being GW Hatebears, Jund, Junk, Affinity, Delver Variants which is my Meta. Never played against tron, even though many people own the deck, everyone is always playing something else.
As for the fetches, its because I need it for a T1 discard. I have never in 100's of games at any point stuggled with 8 fetches vs 6, and it never felt like it was losing me the game by drawing a fetch vs anything else. IF i had Marsh flats, 1 more Fetid Heath i would drop to 6-7 fetches.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
4 Plains
2 Windbrisk Heights
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Fetid Heath
2 Creatures
2 Auriok Champion
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Bitterblossom
3 Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Night-Errant
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
24 Instants & Sorceries
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Murderous Cut
1 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
1 Doom Blade
3 Stony Silence
1 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Mark of Asylum
1 Bitterblossom
2 Zealous Persecution
3 FLEX SPOT
Flagstones is mostly just a test. Having Double Flagstones and a fetch in your opening hand feels good. Otherwise its just a land that loses us the game harder against bloodmoon.
2x Fetid Heath is advisable, but i dont have more, or any Marsh Flats
Auriok Champion - Cut down from 3 to 2 because less twin, i keep it in mostly for burn and general aggro matchups, but may end up dropping it for more timely reinforcements or ZPersecution main board.
Elspeth, Night Errant - Works well with Autiok champ and Reinforcements with the Jump ability. Might actually be better than a 3rd Sorin.
Dismember, Slaughter Pact and Go for the Throat might just become 3 more Doomblades because Twin is gone, dismember is bad against the big mana decks and painful against aggro. Go for the Throat might be too risky mainboard with affinity and Tron. Slaughter Pact might just be Irrelevant since it doesnt stop any real combo decks ( we have good matchups against Kiki Chord with 9 killspells ).
Sideboard:
First 4 is obvious.
Ghostly Prison is for Merfolk which isnt a great matchup. Helps against all aggro decks, but need to figure out the sideboard plan for what to take out. Might not actually have enough cards to remove.
Mark of Asylum - all the damage sweepers.
Bitterblossom - Any midrange or control matchup ( Jeskai and Grixis Control might have an upswing ( but we have a decent matchup against both already )
ZP - Aggro Matchups and Affinity ( might be pointless since we have too much cards that are already good against affinity and Delver is an autowin matchup for us anyway. Seems way way better in the Raise the Alarm Build where you are actively trying to end the game by turn 5 rather than control and get advantage over time.
3 Flex Spot - Should probably just be graveyard hate like 2x Relic + 1x Rest in Peace because we just loose to storm and living end. If the ZP's are dropped we have 5 flex spots which should probably just be 2-3 Hero of Bladehold, or additional discard spells to help us against Ad Naus and Tron.
Need to run a few mock sideboard examples to see if my sideboard is just too specific. Right now the Affinity/Tron/Zoo/Infect/Burn/Merfolk fear is real, even though we actually have decent matchups against all but Tron and Merfolk.
Basically it simply indicates why a card is good for tokens, but doesnt really mention when to play X over Y in specific Meta's
Basically
Auriok Champ
- Strong vs Twin,Burn,Zoo,Affinity,Delver Variants,Jund,Abzan,Martyr Life
- Weak vs Merfolk,Ad Naus,Infect,Storm,Tron,Hatebear
Works well with Bitterblossom, Timely Reinforcements, Thoughtseize, Lilina ( because double black mana and can protect Lili ), Dismember
Go for the Throat
- Strong vs Decks that rely on Spellskite to protect combo. Fine vs everything else
- Weak vs Affinity, Tron.
Chose over Doomblade if you meta is Eldrazi black heavy.
This way players understand WHY certain card choices are affected heavily by Meta ( BW tokens is a Meta deck similar to hatebears, which is why pro tour sees more BW tokens in one event than most of the rest combined, because its "easier" to meta and next level the players. Its too low power to really just go into a GPT consistently and do well because of power level and having too many bad matchups even post board. )