Looks like I'd missed a few ban list updates. The original post is now up to date, I think!
I've been lurking, waiting to see how things shook out after all this Zurgo/Breya/Vial Smasher dominance, and from this spectator's perspective: these bans look good for the diversity of the format. I agree with the Moxen bans, too. It feels consistent with other fast mana bans, anyway.
All that said: how're things looking for the format? Those who are on Cockatrice, are the amount of games more or less the same? Better? Worse? Tournaments look pretty well populated, but I'm otherwise way out of touch...
Hey, Sisay fans! I'll start right off the bat by admitting that I haven't played in two months (an obsession with politics and activism took hold of me, but goddamn is that ever draining and despondent work), but the thrall of spoiler season always sucks me back in to at least speculate on potential inclusions. In truth, I've done close to zero work on this deck to adapt it to 20 life, but I intend to do that work. Soon, hopefully.
Anywho, thus far this upcoming set has had more Sisay-playable spoilers than any set in years (imo) and we've only seen half of the cards! Here's what's got me excited in order of viability:
Amazing card is amazing? This hits a large majority of our most essential early-setup creature permanents, yes, but I'm most excited for this functioning as a fetchland ramp play. I've always been on the fence about Wood Elves in a build that isn't tilted heavily towards elves, so the added versatility of this (double Wasteland, heyyyyy) makes this card pretty much an auto-include IMO.
My style of Sisay still involves a big dependence on landing That Big Spell, and we've long lacked for more, competitive, low-cost creature options that help set up inevitability in the early game. This is an overall better Xantid Swarm (even if for only one turn, it can shut off a control/combo player from making any progress on THEIR turn as well, so it's not just an anti-counterspell permanent), and it's definitely something I want to test out. +1 Legend feels good, too.
One fairly consistent thing about this deck over the years is the motley crew of control, protection, and prison-style creatures that aren't combat viable until the mid-to-late game pump, so these creatures just kind of... sit there for several turns. This is a ramp option that better distributes mana elf options rather than, say, depending on Rofellos who gets sniped and then your progress gets stalled. This adds versatility and better inevitability and gives pre-played creatures the immediate ability to tap. Hey, anything to soften the blow of losing Cradle is welcome in my book.
For high mana cost and not having an immediate impact, this one strikes me as the least playable in DC (but superb for multiplayer, right?), so I'm most skeptical of this one. Nevertheless, holy crap, the potential is obvious. Untapping Sisay and mana dorks and recreating some of that Gaea's Cradle single turn mana burst shenanigans of ye olden days is enticing. It's a cool card.
But before all of that hype: I owe y'all an updated 20-life list. Coming soooooon. Probably.
That's a good point, Raizen; the current unban methodology does seem, on its surface, very careless.
Can anyone from the committee confirm to what degree things like Necropotence/Balance are tested prior to the unban decision? As someone whose professional life is primarily in data analysis, I know I'd have a lot more confidence in these very drastic decisions if we had some insight into the tests preceding them, if any: data, methodologies, time frame, measurable changes to color-pie representations, noted "making the rich richer" effects—anything really.
For that matter, is there a sense of tacit desperation among committee members? I don't recall reading anything official as commentary on (what appears to be) a dwindling community. I could be wrong about that assessment, but I must admit that my confidence in the immediate future of this format is very shaken and I wonder if that's shared by the decision makers.
I think you could make a second section on the banlist for the ante cards since they're usually not very relevant (and are banned in every format anyways). The Gaea's Cradle link also doesn't seem to work.
The website is currently not maintained by the Rules Commitee afaik, and there should be a new one soon. For now, the official "website" is this Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/mtgduelcommander/?fref=nf
Only one mistake that I've seen so far:
First, players start the game with 30 life. (In the Official Rules section, though again, it is true until November 11)
Wait, is that right? Did I miss an announcement? The upper left corner of DuelCommander.com says this:
"The official website and your best resource for MTG duel Commander games. Rules, French banlists, news, blog posts and announcements from the committee."
EDIT: Added the November 11th life change caveat, official Facebook page link, added Ante cards to the ban list, and fixed the Gaea's Cradle link.
For better or for worse, y'all seem to be stuck with me as the owner of the Duel Commander Mega-Thread. The Mega Thread is meant to be an entry-point for newcomers to learn the fundamentals of the format in a kind of one-sheeter, easily navigate-able layout. By the end of the post, newbies should feel sufficiently knowledgeable and inspired to create a deck and get started.
So, with that said... what would an up-to-date (potentially completely overhauled from-the-ground-up) primer include?
Just another opinion here about the 50% control. Getting post Yisan/Tasigur Data, you have
Control
42 %
Keranos, God of Storms 26 5 %
Narset, Enlightened Master 24 5 %
Maelstrom Wanderer 24 5 %
Geist of Saint Traft 23 5 %
The Gitrog Monster 16 3 %
Wydwen, the Biting Gale 12 2 %
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV 12 2 %
Nissa, Vastwood Seer 11 2 %
Five-color Control 11 2 %
Vendilion Clique 10 2 %
Nin, the Pain Artist 6 1 %
Griselbrand 4 1 %
Daretti, Scrap Savant 3 1 %
Rakdos Control 2 0 %
Azami, Lady of Scrolls 2 0 %
Surrak Dragonclaw 2 0 %
Dragonlord Ojutai 2 0 %
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon 2 0 %
Jhoira of the Ghitu 2 0 %
Leovold, Emissary of Trest 2 0 %
Thraximundar 1 0 %
Other - Control 14 3 %
but, here is not only control, Ramp decks are also placed in control... So Maelstrom/Nissa/Griselbrand are not control, they don't interact early, they take a lot of time to interact, so taking them out leaves actually 34% control... Fun decks? Don't know, but I like to play with and against them, better then the land-go and the I'm killing you with these 3 lightning bolts type cards, my opinion.
I don't really get all the 30+ counter decks you are saying was so present, lately there has been really few of these types (Keranos the only main one), they were much more present when DTT+TC and Tasigur were allowed.
Anyway, lets see how the format will survive :/
I agree with you about the miscategorization of Nissa (whose decklists tend to be somewhere between elfball and tempo), but I'd argue that Griselbrand and Maelstrom can be considered control decks at least by your definition. For instance, this Griselbrand deck (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12769&d=274049&f=EDH) has 23 cards that either kill creatures or are hand discruption, the majority of which are played in the first 3 turns. Similarly, one of Wanderer's very few goals is to clear the board and make way for an uncontested as-soon-as-possible Commander that can cast more free removal spells—which makes it exactly like Narset, a deck I think we would both agree is "control." An element of ramp to cast the commander faster doesn't invalidate the controlling core of the decks. Excluding only Nissa, I'd argue that the "true" number of control decks is 40%.
Given that so much of the meta has been elfball for years and years already and that tier 1 decks have long included a decent density of 2-to-4 mana sweepers to not get blown out by ramp decks, I'm skeptical that reduced life will have as much of a negative impact on top tier control decks as this rules change intended. From what I've witnessed on Cockatrice from the many many players who have and continue to play aggro over the years at 30 life, I'd estimate that roughly 1/3 of their losses against control decks happened while their opponent had 10 or less life remaining. Compensating by running more 1-drop aggressive creatures is just begging for a bigger blowout by control decks—who may might not even have to adjust their density of sweepers or do anything sub-optimal like jamming in walls.
But the more I think about it, having the chance of turning 1/3 of aggro's losses into wins by making control/combo more accountable in the early game would be a fairly seismic shift in terms of how players will gravitate towards the 3 different archetypes. It's meta observations like that which can allow us to reasonably calculate that the life change total can bring a bit more balance and (slightly) earlier interactions to Duel Commander. Control decks aren't going anywhere, but making their matchup slightly less of a blowout against aggro and midrange might ought to reduce their proportional dominance if only slightly.
I've gone through and quickly summed up a few generals who I think are definitely worth looking into.
Anax and cymede
Exava
Olivia mobilizer of war
Marchesa the black rose (2 Top 8 finishes)
Queen marchesa (2 Top 8 finishes)
Rafiq
Ruhan
Grenzo dungeon warden (3 Top 8 finishes)
Grenzo (rr)
Tymaret (1 Top 8 finish at a 38 player tournament http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12796&f=EDH)
Skullbriar (2 Top 8 finishes)
Thalia (3 Top 8 finishes)
Zurgo bellstriker (5 Top 8 finishes)
Who do you think has a chance at 20 life??
This is a weird thread. Several of the above decks have finished top 8 at tournaments (and this is just factoring in Post Tasigur/Yisan bans and only for tournaments recorded on MTGTop8, so there's almost certainly far more), and I've personally seen many of them kick so much ass on Cockatrice so it wasn't any kind of fluke.
Kaalia is still playable. But hey, what do I know when it comes to her.........
Serious question here—and I'm being completely earnest—do you play with the Duel Commander banlist or with the multiplayer banlist? I clicked the Kaalia thread in your signature and I see a Rol Ring in the decklist.
I do have a DC list as well. It plays very much like a combo deck (as it should, Kaalia isn't aggro or midrange but combo at her best). I just haven't put the legwork in with that list yet as I've just now been finalizing Alesha to a point where only sporadic updates at best are necessary.
Sorry, I was beating around the bush: do you primarily (or ever) play Duel Commander or do you exclusively play multiplayer 40 life 1v1 Commander?
Kaalia is still playable. But hey, what do I know when it comes to her.........
Serious question here—and I'm being completely earnest—do you play with the Duel Commander banlist or with the multiplayer banlist? I clicked the Kaalia thread in your signature and I see a Rol Ring in the decklist.
I don't see Food Chain or Loyal Retainers unbanned. Too easy to go t3/4 Elesh Norn off of Survival for the latter, and I don't see how Prossh going infinite is less an issue in a 20 life format.
Shhh, don't reveal our plans! ;P
But in seriousness, neither Karador nor Sisay were ever oppressive nor making up any remotely alarming % of the field. I always found the Loyal Retainers ban highly suspect (for real, I still think the "real issue" is Survival and I'd be so happy to see that go.)
Anyway, ditto for Food Chain; Prossh was popular while he was new, but not dominant or over-represented both on Cockatrice and MTGTop8 iirc. Food Chain and Retainers are both combo cards, sure, but aren't build-around great and would be factored into fewer games where there wasn't a bigger life buffer to tutor them out.
I still think Sensei's Diving Top would present a problem for tournament round lengths, but y'all might be onto something. It's a fairly inoffensive card otherwise at 20 life.
I'm really curious what these 5+ unbannings are likely to be.
My guesses that make some kind of sense:
Ancient Tomb
Food Chain
Loyal Retainers
Serra Ascendant
And possibly:
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
(Reposting this from Facebook):
As an alt to Sisay, I've really enjoyed the challenge of playing Kytheon, but most (all?) aggro decks just tend to get rekt on Cockatrice by mass extinction control builds, making it discouraging to keep it up playing red or white aggro. I've likewise witnessed SO MANY PLAYERS attempt every single ostensibly feasible aggro commander online, maybe for just days at a time, but you can see their enthusiasm waning with each crushing defeat against the control-dominated meta. Those players either disappear altogether or begrudgingly adopt creatureless extinction builds or combo decks, the very same that oppressed them.
The most viable alternative to control? Elfball. These and full-blown control decks are fundamentally all you see winning on Cockatrice. This life total change will adjust the power level of so many cards from the overpowered (Sylvan Library) to the underpowered (Lightning Bolt) and ought to allow for a greater diversity of archetypes.
I know that a lot of players are pissed and vowing a mass exodus on the official announcement's comments, but I think a move towards more diversity is always the right move. Maybe we'll find in 3 months that this change won't have the intended effect, but I appreciate the effort and I'm definitely going to keep playing and adapting.
Since you're able to run equipment tutors like Stoneforge and E. Tutor, why not run Selvala and Umbral Mantle? Sisay tutors Selvala and Stoneforge gets Umbral and you go infi, then you can Sisay out all your legendary permanents.
Oh! That's an interesting idea. I did have Rofellos/Mantle way back when, but found I never had enough forests in play to make it work (weirdly, I know.. too many dual and utility lands I can't cut). This, however.. huh. I'm thinking out loud here, about how this would likely play out. So, worst case scenario is that I'd have just Selvela and Mantle in play and the ability to produce 4 mana, I would:
1) Equip Umbral Mantle to Selvela, Heart of the Wilds
2) Use Selvala's mana ability to add 2 to my pool and use a land for 1 more mana (3 total in pool)
3) Pay 3 into Mantle to untap Selvela, making her a 4/5
4) Use my 4th open land to activate Selvela's mana ability again, adding 4 to my pool
5) Repeat with infinite untaps (and an infinitely huge creature), adding +1 mana per turn
6a) Swing for super lethal if my opponent's board is clear
6b) Use the mana to cast Sisay, equip Umbral Mantle to Sisay, untap her 10 times, tutor out all of my legends, create Legendary board lock
Is that right?
I'm willing to try it! I'm ever skeptical of combos requiring too many pieces when one of the pieces isn't exactly the commander, but this could be very powerful. Thank you for the idea.
Yeah, quite different indeed, though still the closest thing being played/vigorously tested right now to Sisay and I desperately need your expertise because I play a fraction of the amount that you do and I feel like I owe you for all the tech I keep stealing and my thread is so distressingly quiet. ;_;
(I started running Hall of the Bandit Lord again! I missed it so.)
I'm never going to run Wastes, because it only matters when casting Thought-Knot Seer, and we have enough colorless lands that enable us to do that. In fact I often find that I can never find the second G source to cast Selvala on t2 or t3 which is frustrating, because we have too many colorless sources.
I feel your pain; 5 years of playing Captain Sisay and I still struggle with the right balance of utility lands vs.. being able to consistently cast my color-mana hungry spells on turns 2 to 3. I'm back to once again playing Sakura-Tribe Elder and both Three Visits and Nature's Lore to smooth out all the many situations that I open with a single color-producing land and a colorless land. I even dropped Nykthos for cryin' out loud! It under-performed in Sisay, but I'm not sure how it's been treatin' ya here. Anyway, possibly worth consideration if you're on the fence about particular colorless lands.
This is the format I play exclusively at this point. The sheer potential for creative deckbuilding AND having a shot at being competitive is staggeringly awesome. The Rules Committee has done a tremendous job over the years of balancing this format. Much love. <3
I've been lurking, waiting to see how things shook out after all this Zurgo/Breya/Vial Smasher dominance, and from this spectator's perspective: these bans look good for the diversity of the format. I agree with the Moxen bans, too. It feels consistent with other fast mana bans, anyway.
All that said: how're things looking for the format? Those who are on Cockatrice, are the amount of games more or less the same? Better? Worse? Tournaments look pretty well populated, but I'm otherwise way out of touch...
Anywho, thus far this upcoming set has had more Sisay-playable spoilers than any set in years (imo) and we've only seen half of the cards! Here's what's got me excited in order of viability:
1. Renegade Rallier
Amazing card is amazing? This hits a large majority of our most essential early-setup creature permanents, yes, but I'm most excited for this functioning as a fetchland ramp play. I've always been on the fence about Wood Elves in a build that isn't tilted heavily towards elves, so the added versatility of this (double Wasteland, heyyyyy) makes this card pretty much an auto-include IMO.
2. Hope of Girapur
My style of Sisay still involves a big dependence on landing That Big Spell, and we've long lacked for more, competitive, low-cost creature options that help set up inevitability in the early game. This is an overall better Xantid Swarm (even if for only one turn, it can shut off a control/combo player from making any progress on THEIR turn as well, so it's not just an anti-counterspell permanent), and it's definitely something I want to test out. +1 Legend feels good, too.
3. Rishkar, Peema Renegade
One fairly consistent thing about this deck over the years is the motley crew of control, protection, and prison-style creatures that aren't combat viable until the mid-to-late game pump, so these creatures just kind of... sit there for several turns. This is a ramp option that better distributes mana elf options rather than, say, depending on Rofellos who gets sniped and then your progress gets stalled. This adds versatility and better inevitability and gives pre-played creatures the immediate ability to tap. Hey, anything to soften the blow of losing Cradle is welcome in my book.
4. Paradox Engine
For high mana cost and not having an immediate impact, this one strikes me as the least playable in DC (but superb for multiplayer, right?), so I'm most skeptical of this one. Nevertheless, holy crap, the potential is obvious. Untapping Sisay and mana dorks and recreating some of that Gaea's Cradle single turn mana burst shenanigans of ye olden days is enticing. It's a cool card.
But before all of that hype: I owe y'all an updated 20-life list. Coming soooooon. Probably.
<3 <3 <3
Can anyone from the committee confirm to what degree things like Necropotence/Balance are tested prior to the unban decision? As someone whose professional life is primarily in data analysis, I know I'd have a lot more confidence in these very drastic decisions if we had some insight into the tests preceding them, if any: data, methodologies, time frame, measurable changes to color-pie representations, noted "making the rich richer" effects—anything really.
For that matter, is there a sense of tacit desperation among committee members? I don't recall reading anything official as commentary on (what appears to be) a dwindling community. I could be wrong about that assessment, but I must admit that my confidence in the immediate future of this format is very shaken and I wonder if that's shared by the decision makers.
Well, you did drunkenly threaten to ban me on Cockatrice if I didn't update this, so.. ;P
(I MIGHT be down to write something for the Salvation homepage. Still thinking about it!)
Wait, is that right? Did I miss an announcement? The upper left corner of DuelCommander.com says this:
"The official website and your best resource for MTG duel Commander games. Rules, French banlists, news, blog posts and announcements from the committee."
EDIT: Added the November 11th life change caveat, official Facebook page link, added Ante cards to the ban list, and fixed the Gaea's Cradle link.
As always: any and all feedback is welcome!
For better or for worse, y'all seem to be stuck with me as the owner of the Duel Commander Mega-Thread. The Mega Thread is meant to be an entry-point for newcomers to learn the fundamentals of the format in a kind of one-sheeter, easily navigate-able layout. By the end of the post, newbies should feel sufficiently knowledgeable and inspired to create a deck and get started.
So, with that said... what would an up-to-date (potentially completely overhauled from-the-ground-up) primer include?
I agree with you about the miscategorization of Nissa (whose decklists tend to be somewhere between elfball and tempo), but I'd argue that Griselbrand and Maelstrom can be considered control decks at least by your definition. For instance, this Griselbrand deck (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12769&d=274049&f=EDH) has 23 cards that either kill creatures or are hand discruption, the majority of which are played in the first 3 turns. Similarly, one of Wanderer's very few goals is to clear the board and make way for an uncontested as-soon-as-possible Commander that can cast more free removal spells—which makes it exactly like Narset, a deck I think we would both agree is "control." An element of ramp to cast the commander faster doesn't invalidate the controlling core of the decks. Excluding only Nissa, I'd argue that the "true" number of control decks is 40%.
Given that so much of the meta has been elfball for years and years already and that tier 1 decks have long included a decent density of 2-to-4 mana sweepers to not get blown out by ramp decks, I'm skeptical that reduced life will have as much of a negative impact on top tier control decks as this rules change intended. From what I've witnessed on Cockatrice from the many many players who have and continue to play aggro over the years at 30 life, I'd estimate that roughly 1/3 of their losses against control decks happened while their opponent had 10 or less life remaining. Compensating by running more 1-drop aggressive creatures is just begging for a bigger blowout by control decks—who may might not even have to adjust their density of sweepers or do anything sub-optimal like jamming in walls.
But the more I think about it, having the chance of turning 1/3 of aggro's losses into wins by making control/combo more accountable in the early game would be a fairly seismic shift in terms of how players will gravitate towards the 3 different archetypes. It's meta observations like that which can allow us to reasonably calculate that the life change total can bring a bit more balance and (slightly) earlier interactions to Duel Commander. Control decks aren't going anywhere, but making their matchup slightly less of a blowout against aggro and midrange might ought to reduce their proportional dominance if only slightly.
This is a weird thread. Several of the above decks have finished top 8 at tournaments (and this is just factoring in Post Tasigur/Yisan bans and only for tournaments recorded on MTGTop8, so there's almost certainly far more), and I've personally seen many of them kick so much ass on Cockatrice so it wasn't any kind of fluke.
Sorry, I was beating around the bush: do you primarily (or ever) play Duel Commander or do you exclusively play multiplayer 40 life 1v1 Commander?
Serious question here—and I'm being completely earnest—do you play with the Duel Commander banlist or with the multiplayer banlist? I clicked the Kaalia thread in your signature and I see a Rol Ring in the decklist.
Shhh, don't reveal our plans! ;P
But in seriousness, neither Karador nor Sisay were ever oppressive nor making up any remotely alarming % of the field. I always found the Loyal Retainers ban highly suspect (for real, I still think the "real issue" is Survival and I'd be so happy to see that go.)
Anyway, ditto for Food Chain; Prossh was popular while he was new, but not dominant or over-represented both on Cockatrice and MTGTop8 iirc. Food Chain and Retainers are both combo cards, sure, but aren't build-around great and would be factored into fewer games where there wasn't a bigger life buffer to tutor them out.
I still think Sensei's Diving Top would present a problem for tournament round lengths, but y'all might be onto something. It's a fairly inoffensive card otherwise at 20 life.
My guesses that make some kind of sense:
And possibly:
(Reposting this from Facebook):
As an alt to Sisay, I've really enjoyed the challenge of playing Kytheon, but most (all?) aggro decks just tend to get rekt on Cockatrice by mass extinction control builds, making it discouraging to keep it up playing red or white aggro. I've likewise witnessed SO MANY PLAYERS attempt every single ostensibly feasible aggro commander online, maybe for just days at a time, but you can see their enthusiasm waning with each crushing defeat against the control-dominated meta. Those players either disappear altogether or begrudgingly adopt creatureless extinction builds or combo decks, the very same that oppressed them.
The most viable alternative to control? Elfball. These and full-blown control decks are fundamentally all you see winning on Cockatrice. This life total change will adjust the power level of so many cards from the overpowered (Sylvan Library) to the underpowered (Lightning Bolt) and ought to allow for a greater diversity of archetypes.
I know that a lot of players are pissed and vowing a mass exodus on the official announcement's comments, but I think a move towards more diversity is always the right move. Maybe we'll find in 3 months that this change won't have the intended effect, but I appreciate the effort and I'm definitely going to keep playing and adapting.
Oh! That's an interesting idea. I did have Rofellos/Mantle way back when, but found I never had enough forests in play to make it work (weirdly, I know.. too many dual and utility lands I can't cut). This, however.. huh. I'm thinking out loud here, about how this would likely play out. So, worst case scenario is that I'd have just Selvela and Mantle in play and the ability to produce 4 mana, I would:
1) Equip Umbral Mantle to Selvela, Heart of the Wilds
2) Use Selvala's mana ability to add 2 to my pool and use a land for 1 more mana (3 total in pool)
3) Pay 3 into Mantle to untap Selvela, making her a 4/5
4) Use my 4th open land to activate Selvela's mana ability again, adding 4 to my pool
5) Repeat with infinite untaps (and an infinitely huge creature), adding +1 mana per turn
6a) Swing for super lethal if my opponent's board is clear
6b) Use the mana to cast Sisay, equip Umbral Mantle to Sisay, untap her 10 times, tutor out all of my legends, create Legendary board lock
Is that right?
I'm willing to try it! I'm ever skeptical of combos requiring too many pieces when one of the pieces isn't exactly the commander, but this could be very powerful. Thank you for the idea.
(I started running Hall of the Bandit Lord again! I missed it so.)
I feel your pain; 5 years of playing Captain Sisay and I still struggle with the right balance of utility lands vs.. being able to consistently cast my color-mana hungry spells on turns 2 to 3. I'm back to once again playing Sakura-Tribe Elder and both Three Visits and Nature's Lore to smooth out all the many situations that I open with a single color-producing land and a colorless land. I even dropped Nykthos for cryin' out loud! It under-performed in Sisay, but I'm not sure how it's been treatin' ya here. Anyway, possibly worth consideration if you're on the fence about particular colorless lands.
::disappears back into the lurker-sphere::