I was brewing to see how it slotted in this afternoon. I am excited to try out a RUG version. Spirebluff canal let me cycle everything in my deck for 1 mana (save Archfiend) pain free. Obviously there need to be some Fetch/Shock action for consistency with Green and black but being able to almost eliminate 2 mana cyclers seems great.
So then are you splashing W for ardent plea? Or splashing black for demonic dread. I don't know how the upside of not needing a creature in play compared against not being able to hardcast a lot of our threats (Wraith, Demon, Carabid, Architects). My gut says that we win enough grindy postboard games by hardcasting big dumb dumbs that we should stick with black over white.
I was goldfishing splashing black. Partially because it's what I had, but again I think it's better to have the option to "hardcast" Living End on occasion.
I really like the way the deck flows mana-wise. Haven't tested it with sb but I feel like there's enough fetch/shock/cycle to get what you need.
The only other thing I'm sorta interested in trying is seeing if there is a transformational SB idea here with Twin (Kiki & Exarch) like LSV did a year or so back but that might be cute since we'd never get Kiki till 5 mana.
I was brewing to see how it slotted in this afternoon. I am excited to try out a RUG version. Spirebluff canal let me cycle everything in my deck for 1 mana (save Archfiend) pain free. Obviously there need to be some Fetch/Shock action for consistency with Green and black but being able to almost eliminate 2 mana cyclers seems great.
Quick thought. Looking over some decklists it seems that although Living End is seen as a Jund list. Without Demonic Dread and Shriekmaw black the deck could run entirely on RG(if you're just cycling). Considering the new Sphinx and a potential focus on U in Amonkhet for cycling it seems like the deck oculd change to a RUGb mana base as opposed to a BRGu one.
I'm new to Living End so i'm not sure how viable this sounds. I get that it would make hardcasting more difficult but it seems like it would make the mb gameplan smoother (8 more 1 cmc cyclers with significant upsides) and potentially some sb cards [[aethersnipe]], [[Wipe Away]], [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] or [[nevermaker]] for us.
I'd think that Death's Shadow, Thoughtseize and Traverse should be the core symbols on it. Those are cards that every version despite it's budget or personality will have. I'd give it a nod to the Jund banner with color scheme and design but maybe include smaller version of other core cards like Bauble, Tarfire, Tarmogoyf and Temur Battle Rage
You havne't added Chandra, Torch of Defiance to the threat list. Althought she's still yet to be seen as a staple I think she's definitely worht the mention as a minimum 2-for-1 be that with ramping into a new spell and fogging or removing a creature and eating a removal spell. She's definitely worth a 1-of spot next to or over Pyromaster.
I'm also biased but I really dig Hangarback Walker. It's great early or late game. It's a blocker that replaces itself for your walkers at a minimum 1-for-1. LAte game it gives you a big attacker (I've cast it multiple times after clearing the board as a 3/3 or 4/4.) I don't even mind playing 2 mana, play an extra land this turn. It's nice for evening out draw or for good early or late game power.
Lastly, I'm a big fan of reverberate. It's nice as a red-counter spell, doubling late game bolts to the face or molten rains to punish your opponent. Because a majority of our deck is instants and sorceries I've found countless uses for it. My favorite is drawing 4 cards off of Tezzeret's Gambit when I was running that as a 1-of
Thanks! I'll include that in my testing. Just to be clear you were including surgical mb? I feel like there is a propensity for blanking on targets there.
I'm running 22 lands (including 1 valakut) and I've filled in my 2 drop spot. I'm playing 3 jets (which is likely 1 too many) as well as 2 pyroclasm and 2 Hangarback Walker I really like Jet for scrying me into or away from lands (much needed) as well as dealing with Planeswalkers (temporarily until I get a permenant on the board to deal with them.
I'm new to suicide zoo and was wondering if there was a primer anywhere for the deck. I've seen some linked through the thread but they seemed more focused on deck choices more than game play and how to play the deck well. While i've seen tips here and there throughout the thread is there any place here game play tips are centralized?
Also when building what is the "optimal" or "most correct" number of doublers, threats or amount of protection? I'm thinking of playing 3c rather than 4 so what would the difference be on numbers there?
Lastly, mishra's bauble is mad expensive for an uncommon. A friend said not to buy into it since it'll likely be reprinted in MM17. Is there a budget replacement I can use in it's place until then?
I currently play modern squeeflagrate and I have decided that I would like to play a higher tier deck. Has anyone got a stock list that I could build towards and tweak (preferably no Tarmogoyf due to money restrictions)? Also, could anyone please provide me with some 'beginner's tips' on how to play the deck effectively?
Depends what exactly you are looking for.
I've had great success running a Jund Version without white as 4th colour, going 5-1 last FNM, only loosing against Naya Burn in the semifinals.
The deck popped up here and there but did not make a huge impact throughout the community.
After playing the deck for a few weaks now and tweaking it many times, this is the list i've settled on.
I like it more than the Lynx/4C builds because this list literally never gets mana screwed and has more resilency against removal while only beeing marginally slower. (Usually half a turn).
Greetings
Hey I am also new to Suicide Zoo. I am currently testing and buying into the deck online and was looking more towards the delirious Jund build for the reasons you mentioned. I have a couple of questions about your specific list. Firstly, why Traverse in the side instead of main? In the list i'm testin gI have traverse mb. Also why 3 bauble and not 4? I would think bauble is more important since you have delirium as something you'd want to turn on earlier. Lastly, have you run the 4c version before? Would you add white for sb cards such as Phyrexian Unlife or Stony Silence? Thanks
Since we're talking about bad matchups here's a write up on a Saturday Modern tournament I went to two weeks back. It was a lot of matchups I consider bad but they ended up going fairly well.
1st Match: Storm 2-0
G1: Turn 2 Koth wins games.
G2: The kid was kind of young and tilted already. I kept 2 relics and kept him off his graveyard. He had two Goblin Electromancer that after I played a Reckoner were no longer relevant. I won with Koth and a Stormbreath
SB: in-2 molten rain, 1 dragon's claw, 1 relic, 1 ratchet bomb. out-2 pyroclasm, 1 pia and kiran, 2 skred
2nd Match: Temur Scapeshift 2-1
G1: He played a search for tomorrow instead of leaving up mana t3 for Blood Moon and had no mb answers
G2: He played a lot more on the defensive. There was a lot of back and forth between him killing my rabblemaster and me throwing bolt at him. I got a Koth on the table but he fetched a few times and resolved scapeshift before I could close
G3: He still played defensively. While he was waiting for my blood moon I got some Hanfarback beats in. He had a forest which let him search for a few islands. I used Molten Rain to kill one before he got to 3 for cryptic and let Reckoner bring it home.
SB: in-2 Molten Rain, 1 Dragon's Claw, 1 Torpor Orb 3 Goblin Rabblemaster out-2 skred, 2 pyroclasm, 1 p&k, 1 roast
note: this was actually BTL so I moved teh torpor orb out after g2. It's also why i didn't see the amount of counters I expected to. That being said Temur scapeshift is one of my favorite matchups and definitely our easiest scapeshift version to see.
3rd match: Eldrazi and Taxes 2-0
G1: He came in strong with early hand disruption and pathing my hangarback with a arbitor out. I resolved a Koth and swung in for some damage that immediatley got killed by reality smasher. After killing the smasher and resolving a blood moon it wasn't long until I had Koth and Chandra on the board to clean up the game.
G2: I opened a strong hand with molten rain, reckoner and rabblemaster. He inquisitioned the reckoner resolved a matter reshaper. I used molten rain to cut off his colorless source while he chipped away with reshaper until I could hold them and thoughtknot off with two stormbreaths.
SB: in 2 molten rain, 1 torpor orb, out-2 pyroclasm, 1 relic
4th Match: Eldrazi Tron 1-2
G1: Early Thought-knot Seer into Reality Smasher for an easy win on his part
G2: I got out an early rabblemaster. Unfortunately the goblin tokens kept bouncing off of his large creatures, but it did open them up to bolt. I was able to trade an animated land for seer and Reckoner for a dismember and won swinging in for 12 with rabblemaster and stormbreath.
G3: Despite seeing both my molten rains I could not keep him off tron and didn't see a skred or roast to take care of his thoughtknot seer's from eventually swinging in for win.
SB: in 2 molten rain, 1 torpor orb, 3 rabblemaster out 3 relic, 2 pryoclasm, 1 pyrite spellbomb
I really like my list, I've been tweaking it for a few months now and I'm glad I was able to defeat some of my harder matchups. This was the first time I've played Molten Rain in the side and it's definitely the MVP from that night. The eldrazi decks seemed pretty manageable if you can resolve your blood moon.
From my experience, land destruction is the key. If you mix pressure, land destruction and blood moon they cannot win. Remembem you can shoot a animated koth mountain with removal!!
I wouldn't say couldn't win but close enough where they are slow enough for you to handle. I also side in my two shattering sprees. Killing an early map can slow the. Down if they don't already have the combo. Blood moons and molten rains cost them time while you build up your board as quickly as possible and swing with everything you've got every turn. I'm running 3 rabblemasters sb. He gets killed early in quite a few matches but he does give us another threat and out additional pressure on the opponent
You should consider opening up a google doc or something so people can write match up guides with what build they have and how they prep or sb for certain decks and then just edit and upload them. I'd be more than happy the classic build ones
So I tried morten's list for 2 weeks and here are my thoughts.
I'm really not a fan of t3 blood moon, esp on the draw. It often does nothing but shut off manlands, and my scrying sheets. I might consider cutting 1 or 2, but I feel like they're kind of necessary, so meh. They just feel so underwhelming without ssg. I'm also not a fan of mind stones, they're a terrible topdeck and I don't feel like jumping from t2 to t4 is a good enough reason to run them. I don't know about the 1 mizzium mortar either, everytime I drew it I wished it were a Roast instead. I also found myself siding the 2 stormbreaths in in nearly every match, the reasoning is that often times the best solution for difficult situations is to kill or out race the other player.
CausticKorg
I have some matchups done on my phone, but I'm hesitant to post them right away because I realized as I was writing them up that there are multiple ways to approach certain matchups, and they sometimes contradict with themselves. An example would be vs Jeskai. You can beat them by just making land drops until their manaleaks/remands are duds, or you can just slam threats into counterspells, and if they don't have it, they die because our threats are too difficult to deal with.
Sounds like you should try the SSG build. It plays threats faster and more often. I hate Mindstone. SSG isn't a much better top deck but depending on how many lands you play he makes for a surprise combat trick later in the game when you're tapped out.
Similar to what @CalvaryWolfpack was saying I think the problem you're facing is that depending on the list Skred plays like a control deck or a midrange deck. I play the Classic SSG version with Reckoner and stormbreaths. I generally attempt to lock out threats while slowly playing some of my own threats and then slam in for the win. The Adonis2k list looks like more control. I haven't played it but I imagine it makes sure the board is very secure before chipping away with Scourge or getting the Koth ultimate. If you're going to write matchup guides it should probably divided by midrange or control playstyle.
@CalvaryWolfpack if you're gonna test out P&K I'd consider trying 2 P&K and 2 Stormbreath since you don't really have any other early blockers. Looking over your list tho it doesn't seem like you really want them. Your list looks like it is control early game and explosive late game. You aren't running enough artifacts for P&K to be explosive and it doesn't look like you'd really care about sitting and protecting planeswalkers. Plus they don't interact well with you running 4 mb boardwipes. It's a solid card and worth the test but I don't think it's worth it for your build
She is extremely strong but I don't think she's as good as Koth in our deck. Ultimating a turn earlier makes an enormous difference! The extra ability is extremely nice tho
I was goldfishing splashing black. Partially because it's what I had, but again I think it's better to have the option to "hardcast" Living End on occasion.
4 Living End
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
Cycle Team
4 Street Wraith
4 Architects of Will
4 Curator of Mysteries
3 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Monsterous Carabid
4 Deadshot Minotaur
3 Beast Within
3 Simian Spirit Guides
2 Faerie Macabre
Lands
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Deltas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forbidden Orchard (?)
I really like the way the deck flows mana-wise. Haven't tested it with sb but I feel like there's enough fetch/shock/cycle to get what you need.
The only other thing I'm sorta interested in trying is seeing if there is a transformational SB idea here with Twin (Kiki & Exarch) like LSV did a year or so back but that might be cute since we'd never get Kiki till 5 mana.
I'm new to Living End so i'm not sure how viable this sounds. I get that it would make hardcasting more difficult but it seems like it would make the mb gameplan smoother (8 more 1 cmc cyclers with significant upsides) and potentially some sb cards [[aethersnipe]], [[Wipe Away]], [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] or [[nevermaker]] for us.
I'd think that Death's Shadow, Thoughtseize and Traverse should be the core symbols on it. Those are cards that every version despite it's budget or personality will have. I'd give it a nod to the Jund banner with color scheme and design but maybe include smaller version of other core cards like Bauble, Tarfire, Tarmogoyf and Temur Battle Rage
You havne't added Chandra, Torch of Defiance to the threat list. Althought she's still yet to be seen as a staple I think she's definitely worht the mention as a minimum 2-for-1 be that with ramping into a new spell and fogging or removing a creature and eating a removal spell. She's definitely worth a 1-of spot next to or over Pyromaster.
I'm also biased but I really dig Hangarback Walker. It's great early or late game. It's a blocker that replaces itself for your walkers at a minimum 1-for-1. LAte game it gives you a big attacker (I've cast it multiple times after clearing the board as a 3/3 or 4/4.) I don't even mind playing 2 mana, play an extra land this turn. It's nice for evening out draw or for good early or late game power.
Lastly, I'm a big fan of reverberate. It's nice as a red-counter spell, doubling late game bolts to the face or molten rains to punish your opponent. Because a majority of our deck is instants and sorceries I've found countless uses for it. My favorite is drawing 4 cards off of Tezzeret's Gambit when I was running that as a 1-of
I'm new to suicide zoo and was wondering if there was a primer anywhere for the deck. I've seen some linked through the thread but they seemed more focused on deck choices more than game play and how to play the deck well. While i've seen tips here and there throughout the thread is there any place here game play tips are centralized?
Also when building what is the "optimal" or "most correct" number of doublers, threats or amount of protection? I'm thinking of playing 3c rather than 4 so what would the difference be on numbers there?
Lastly, mishra's bauble is mad expensive for an uncommon. A friend said not to buy into it since it'll likely be reprinted in MM17. Is there a budget replacement I can use in it's place until then?
Hey I am also new to Suicide Zoo. I am currently testing and buying into the deck online and was looking more towards the delirious Jund build for the reasons you mentioned. I have a couple of questions about your specific list. Firstly, why Traverse in the side instead of main? In the list i'm testin gI have traverse mb. Also why 3 bauble and not 4? I would think bauble is more important since you have delirium as something you'd want to turn on earlier. Lastly, have you run the 4c version before? Would you add white for sb cards such as Phyrexian Unlife or Stony Silence? Thanks
Here's my decklist:
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Lands
19 Snow-covered Mountain
2 Scrying Sheets
1 Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle
Removal
4 Skred
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm
1 Roast
4 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Utility
3 Blood Moon
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Anger of the gods
2 Shattering Spree
2 Molten Rain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Outpost Siege
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Torpor Orb
1st Match: Storm 2-0
G1: Turn 2 Koth wins games.
G2: The kid was kind of young and tilted already. I kept 2 relics and kept him off his graveyard. He had two Goblin Electromancer that after I played a Reckoner were no longer relevant. I won with Koth and a Stormbreath
SB: in-2 molten rain, 1 dragon's claw, 1 relic, 1 ratchet bomb. out-2 pyroclasm, 1 pia and kiran, 2 skred
2nd Match: Temur Scapeshift 2-1
G1: He played a search for tomorrow instead of leaving up mana t3 for Blood Moon and had no mb answers
G2: He played a lot more on the defensive. There was a lot of back and forth between him killing my rabblemaster and me throwing bolt at him. I got a Koth on the table but he fetched a few times and resolved scapeshift before I could close
G3: He still played defensively. While he was waiting for my blood moon I got some Hanfarback beats in. He had a forest which let him search for a few islands. I used Molten Rain to kill one before he got to 3 for cryptic and let Reckoner bring it home.
SB: in-2 Molten Rain, 1 Dragon's Claw, 1 Torpor Orb 3 Goblin Rabblemaster out-2 skred, 2 pyroclasm, 1 p&k, 1 roast
note: this was actually BTL so I moved teh torpor orb out after g2. It's also why i didn't see the amount of counters I expected to. That being said Temur scapeshift is one of my favorite matchups and definitely our easiest scapeshift version to see.
3rd match: Eldrazi and Taxes 2-0
G1: He came in strong with early hand disruption and pathing my hangarback with a arbitor out. I resolved a Koth and swung in for some damage that immediatley got killed by reality smasher. After killing the smasher and resolving a blood moon it wasn't long until I had Koth and Chandra on the board to clean up the game.
G2: I opened a strong hand with molten rain, reckoner and rabblemaster. He inquisitioned the reckoner resolved a matter reshaper. I used molten rain to cut off his colorless source while he chipped away with reshaper until I could hold them and thoughtknot off with two stormbreaths.
SB: in 2 molten rain, 1 torpor orb, out-2 pyroclasm, 1 relic
4th Match: Eldrazi Tron 1-2
G1: Early Thought-knot Seer into Reality Smasher for an easy win on his part
G2: I got out an early rabblemaster. Unfortunately the goblin tokens kept bouncing off of his large creatures, but it did open them up to bolt. I was able to trade an animated land for seer and Reckoner for a dismember and won swinging in for 12 with rabblemaster and stormbreath.
G3: Despite seeing both my molten rains I could not keep him off tron and didn't see a skred or roast to take care of his thoughtknot seer's from eventually swinging in for win.
SB: in 2 molten rain, 1 torpor orb, 3 rabblemaster out 3 relic, 2 pryoclasm, 1 pyrite spellbomb
I really like my list, I've been tweaking it for a few months now and I'm glad I was able to defeat some of my harder matchups. This was the first time I've played Molten Rain in the side and it's definitely the MVP from that night. The eldrazi decks seemed pretty manageable if you can resolve your blood moon.
I wouldn't say couldn't win but close enough where they are slow enough for you to handle. I also side in my two shattering sprees. Killing an early map can slow the. Down if they don't already have the combo. Blood moons and molten rains cost them time while you build up your board as quickly as possible and swing with everything you've got every turn. I'm running 3 rabblemasters sb. He gets killed early in quite a few matches but he does give us another threat and out additional pressure on the opponent
Sounds like you should try the SSG build. It plays threats faster and more often. I hate Mindstone. SSG isn't a much better top deck but depending on how many lands you play he makes for a surprise combat trick later in the game when you're tapped out.
Similar to what @CalvaryWolfpack was saying I think the problem you're facing is that depending on the list Skred plays like a control deck or a midrange deck. I play the Classic SSG version with Reckoner and stormbreaths. I generally attempt to lock out threats while slowly playing some of my own threats and then slam in for the win. The Adonis2k list looks like more control. I haven't played it but I imagine it makes sure the board is very secure before chipping away with Scourge or getting the Koth ultimate. If you're going to write matchup guides it should probably divided by midrange or control playstyle.
@CalvaryWolfpack if you're gonna test out P&K I'd consider trying 2 P&K and 2 Stormbreath since you don't really have any other early blockers. Looking over your list tho it doesn't seem like you really want them. Your list looks like it is control early game and explosive late game. You aren't running enough artifacts for P&K to be explosive and it doesn't look like you'd really care about sitting and protecting planeswalkers. Plus they don't interact well with you running 4 mb boardwipes. It's a solid card and worth the test but I don't think it's worth it for your build