Well, I asked for a new Fact or Fiction and it looks like we're getting one. Too bad they took the graveyard out of the picture. Looks like we'll have to wait for another way to fetch Knights.
On Moonlight Bargain - I'm not just using it as a way of putting nights into the graveyard(if i was dredge cards would indeed be better) i'm using it generally at the end of my opponents turn to dig 5 cards down putting any knights or unimportant cards in my graveyard and paying 2-4 life to keep 1-2 useful counters or kill spells. Its worked well for me so far but i definitely wouldn't run more than 2.
On Delirium Skeins - I considered it for a while when I was first building my deck(mainly because the aggro version were using it) but I soon realised that you need to be running a lot more knights than my control version to make it effective, basically a Skeins which discards a Haakon and another knight is the bare minimum for it to be effective. A Skeins discarding even 3 Knights without a Haakon(in hand, in graveyard or in play) is just a waste and a Skeins discarding only Haakon and 2 non-Knight cards(probably counters or kill in my version) is painful, the optimum of course is Haakon and 2 other knights but that is unlikely to be consistant. Basically its pretty bad in a knight-lite control build, in a knight-heavy aggro version however its definitely a legitimate choice.
On Gifts Ungiven - I'm not a fan for a couple of reasons, 1. Its from Kamigawa so we're losing it soon and I don't want the deck to become to dependent on anything from Kamigawa and 2. Its not going to get Haakon into your graveyard, anybody faced with a choice of Haakon and 3 other knights will let you keep Haakon and the weakest knight, for a gifts to guarantee Haakon going to the graveyard you need to gifts for a Haakon and 3 discard outlets(all different).
@Everyone: I'm not a huge fan of the "HaakonFlare" deck ideas, it looks and plays like a SolarFlare deck which has been watered down to make Haakon work. I strongly believe that Haakon is solid enough to be the core concept in his own deck without being a "Tack-On" for another deck. I have no problem the a more heavily white Haakon control or using wrath or persecute maindeck but throwing in signets and adding Angels etc. just dilutes both the Haakon and the SolarFlare strategies.
Regarding Moonlight Bargain: I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this card. It's cc is rather expensive, meaning you need 7-9 mana to be able to counter something after casting. It also costs you life which this deck has little of to spare thanks to the mana base. I'd be hoping for a Fact or Fiction/Gifts "esque" card in TS. Or something to the effect of a more appropriately costed Entomb.
Regarding Delerium Skeins: TY. You took the words right outta my mouth.
Regarding Gifts: If you aren't running it because of the impempending rotation, that's understandable. However, you didn't realize that when you cast Gifts you don't HAVE to fetch 4 cards. Just fetch Haakon and whatever knight you need at the time & FAIL TO FIND the other two.:D
Regarding Haakon Flare: I also agree here. Leave the angels and signets at the door plz.
Derilium Skeins ís obviously a very fun card, most of the times you're opponent will go:
Uhh...
*raises eyebrow*
uuh.. ok. hmpf
But it's no good when playing a control deck, because then you're hurting yourself. When playing control it's all about card advantage and look at this:
Playing skeins -1
discarding 3 (minimal 1 control element and most of the times 2)
is a total of -4. It hurts your opponent but we're not playing suicide control, are we?
Signets aren't a bad idea playing 3 persecutes main, think about it, looks nice to me. I think we can get a lot of ideas out of the solar flare deck.
But I'll wait till Time spiral comes out, then we'll be getting a better overview.
But keep in mind Solar Flare is also trying to accelerate into Angel of Despair, Kokusho, Yosei, Ink-Eyes, Meloku, etc. I don't know that 3 Persecute and a playset of Wrath's warrent the use of signets, & definately not 5-6 of them like most Flare builds are running. Furthermore, what on earth would you cut from the deck to fit them in?
@amadi: Don't put Derilium Skeins in your deck, it's not good since you're playing control. When you play aggro it does not really matter discarding 1 *insert random card name that isn't a knight from my deck here*, but when playing control discarding a counter or something else most of the time hurts (even thought it's rune snage).
ok, @everyone Don't play Derilium Skeins when playing control.
A question: is it ok for me to post haakon aggro? I'm serious, is this thread for abusing haakon or really for haakon control?
\
Just keep posting:) People will just have to learn to declare which version of Haakon they're are playing and which they're making suggestions for. I personally think the control version is stronger, but that doesn't neccessarily mean Aggro Haakon is any less viable.
Well, I figure on getting WW turn two just fine, but I'm not so sure I'll get BB on turn 2... I don't need it until turn 4, after all. Plus, with that mana base, the white one will get a lot bigger... still, I guess it couldn't hurt to maindeck protection from three colors, so maybe I'll run the black one anyway.
You won't have to toss your control elements to Skeins... after you toss Haakon (you won't cast Skiens without him in your hand) and at least one more knight (ok, not a guarantee, but I think it's fairly likely...), you're left discarding around one card you want to keep, and your opponent six. Since you're playing control and have such a low curve, you can probably safely discard a land...
And, ummm... why is Stinkweed Imp bad in control? You can recursively kill off attacking creatures, and any knights you dredge up you can turn around and play, so it even ends up giving you card advantage.
You must keep in mind my version only runs 13 creatures, therefore making Skeins more dangerous to me. I don't need BB turn 2 either. I'd much rather play them from my grave later on and control the first several turns of a match. Not to mention there's more need for pro white than pro black in the current meta IMO. Even running just 1 is fine so long as you can gifts for it. But your not playing Gifts so you'll probably need them in multiples. I think you misunderstood my point with Imp. As a cretaure that trades 1 for one with almost any creatures in the format he's spectacular for control. But as with my opinion of Skeins, Imp's hefty dredge cost scares me in a deck that wants to stay in control. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I should have explained myself a little better.
Lubabah: Karsten's version is indeed quite powerful. The biggest problem I see with it is that it's almost completely dependant on casting Gifts at least once per game. Otherwise, the "silver bullet" approach is solid. Oh, and his mana base makes me want to vomit.
Onoez: The whole decklist looks kinda like he was drafting doesn't it. I would probably run a 4th Gifts if I were Karsten. Confindant can be run in control, although I'd probably just run Arena instead. However, in Mori's Structrure n Force, his MD is VERY blue heavy so supporting arena would have been more difficult. His curve was also pretty low, so it this case, Confidant was probably the better choice.
Solace: Either way your going to need both BB and WW so running both Pump Knights shouldn't be an issue unless your decision is strictly meta based. Delerium Skeins will only work in Aggro Haakon. I'm not about to start tossing my decks control elements as it will end up doing more damage than good. Same with Stinkweed Imp. Very solid in aggro versions, kinda meh in control.
Amadi: 2-3 sigents is MUCH better than 4-6. But replacing them with Skeins in a control deck is bad. Why MD a card that's BAD for control? I'd look elsewhere. There are plenty of other cards you could use instead.
Was the deck i posted in DFC at haakon control thread. It is a bit post-rotation, having terramorphic expanse in it, while having no Kamigawa cards (Mainly gifts..)
I dont have remand in the deck, it's replaced by spell snare. This deck doesn't have much to drop on first turn, therefore i chose a controllive option there. It can be sideboarded out, if it somehow turns out to be useless.
Knights of the holy nimbus will be amazing once it is legal. 2cc creature, who needs at least 3/3 to block it for it to die. And STILL opponent would have to have 2 mana available. It is so hard to kill. And when it happens to die, it comes right back via haakon.
This deck's idea is hard-to-deal-with creatures. Only creature from my list who is easy to deal with without backup, is court hussar. Hussar just is card advantage in there.
I think i'd need another discard outlet for haakon. What would be ideal choice?
EDIT: I want to add some Bouncelands, which lands would be good to cut for them? I'd want 3-4 bouncelands i quess. They are a 'discard outlet' after all.
My vote goes to Peace of Mind......It gains you life which is hella good against aggro, it allows for extra ways to get Haakon into the yard, and as it happened in a match I was playing the other night vs Azorius Aggro, it allowed me to discard a Rune Snag and then play another Rune Snag, forcing my opponent to pay 4, which he could not.
While bouncelands may help to get Haakon out early, they are really rough on the mana base (which is unstable at times as is). Not too mention they screw over your best strategy vs aggro which is to take care of threats as quick as possible.
BTW, why waste MD slots on signets.....you're not trying to accel into any fat.....the only thing it might be nice for is T3 Persecute or Wrath of God. Wasting 5 slots to accel into 4-6 cards is a bad idea IMO.
Wrath of God and maybe even Grave Pact should be in this deck. The deck revolves around recurring threats from the yard so both cards are very useful. Both deal with the huge threats.
Wrath of God definately, but I don't see gravepact working for a few reasons. 1) BBB in cost 2) gravepact is better served in decks with 20 + creatures. The B/W versions could support it, but mine could not for both the resons I listed above. I would give Stinkweed Imp the nod over Grave Pact personally.
Machius: The mana base is the mana base. It's not going to get much better than that........just ask anyone playing Zoo. I'm open to suggestions though. Terramorphic expanse will help solve some of the problems. I STRONGLY disagree with cutting the pump knights. 1) They have pro white/black so the can chump block forever vs decks like Solar Flare, Hierarchy/Masterpiece, etc. 2) They gain evasion at a reasonable cost 3) They get extra dmg to opponents dome since they can be pumped. 4 Haakon is uneccessary because you only need 1. As a 3 of I still see at least 2 per game via all my card draw. Believe it or not, there was a Haakon deck that won a MTGO tourney and it ran almost the same list, but only ran 1 Paladin with the 2nd in the SB. En-Vec is only better vs Tron and burn based aggro (Rakdos, Zoo, Heezy). Periolus is just being tested. If gifts doens't get a suitable replacement in TS then this could be the next best option. I'm not sure I like the thought of 3 Gifts......I just don't want to see dead cards late game. Same could be said for Peace of Mind just because most aggro decks (B/W excluded) don't usually run enchant hate MD so 1 is all you need to see. But, I'm still making changes so I won't rule out such advice, but "at a glance" I'm still a bit skeptical.
Pham: Peace of Mind most definately needs to be in this deck either MD or SB vs aggro which are the decks tougher matchups. He's not just there to toss Haakon (although PoM does up the spells to get Haakon into the yard to 8 meaning you should see one in you first few draws). Why wouldn't you want to toss each knight you draw to gain 3 opponents EOT and the play him from the graveyard the following turn. You should really test it out. It's won me more aggro matches than Wrath of God. I think that says a lot.
Onoez: Um, every aggro deck not named Zoo should be running Jitte somewhere........I thought that was somewhat of a "given." I was ruinning it for a while in the SB, then asked myself why run it only for other jitte when I can run Needle and take care of Jitte as well as an array of other cards. Secondly, your right, Gifts and Research don't belong in an aggro deck......and mine isn't an aggro deck. However, that being said, the B/W/u version has better matchups vs both aggro AND control. The only exception to that would be the Magnivore matchup.
Here's the list I've been playing for a little while now. I've had very positive results with it online. It rapes control and has solid first game vs aggro. Zoo and Snakes are really the only 2 decks that can be problematic. As with most 3 color decks, the mana base can lose you games on its own so good luck with a budget version. The List:
The most recent change I've made was moving the 2x Persecute to SB since it tends to be a subpar card when 1) playing aggro & 2) playing without signets/some form of acceleration. As I stated above, the deck already slaps control around, so the few excess cards for control matchup are better off in SB. I replaced them with Perilous Research for answer digging or getting an extra something out of dying chump blockers. I've only managed time for a handful of matches since the change but So far it seems preety good. Only noticable drawback is getting too much blue in your opening hand. Peace of Mind is one of my favorite cards in this deck. It can single handedly win aggro matchups. If I don't end up deciding on Perilous, then I'll probably add a third as well as a third Gifts. But with all the card draw in this deck, I don't want to be drawing into cards I don't need. Bounce lands are bad IMO because of heavy BB/WW requirement. I don't want to take mana burn or force myself to play something to avoid the burn, when it's an unneccesary play.
Ashes forces you to play cards the deck doesn't need, i.e. Confidant. Only the B/W versions should be considering either. They should also be using Delerium Skeins (which I think is horrible) or Peace of Mind (my personal preference). They may also consider dredge cards like Nightmare Void and Stinkweed Imp to help get Haakon in the yard due to the lack of Compulsive/Gifts. They function as aggro decks though, whereas mine runs much more like Solar Flare.
Definately looking forward to the TS Knights. Terramorphic Expanse will definately be included when they're available. Might even smooth out the manabase enought to support the Pentarch's WWW cc.
Umm...he isn't racist. Moss and Culpepper weren't getting it done here, and there was no chance we were going to win a Super Bowl with one of them on our team.
I dunno if it was about Moss not getting it done as it was the "baggage" that went along with (not blocking, not running routes, etc). Daunte was a big loss. The only reason his performance was sub par the few games he played IMO was because of the lack of Moss. Also, the gameplan, playbook, etc had to be redone and he was thrown into a new system with garbage for WR's, no running game, and a sub-par D(though it was better than it had been in years previous & the biggest reason they won't win a championship anytime soon). Blame for his occasional fumblitis however, should be placed squarely on his own shoulders. Okay, racist may have been too strong a word. A lot of what I was referring to was very "tongue n cheek". I just didn't like the way he handled the whole Lake "Slap my A**" situation as well as some of the comments made in a few random press conferences . I wish for the life of me I could quote him on some of it. I'll have to google it later this evening when I have a few extra minutes.
Anyone here want Daunte Culpepper? As a Vikings fan, I want him to fall on his ass and fail miserably this year, so having him on my fantasy team is a conflict of interests.
AS a Vikings fan, you should be pissed at your racist owner. He got rid of both Moss and Culpepper.
Indeed. Here's what their game plan is gonna be... BLITZ THE S**T OUT OF FAVRE!!! haha, That's why I'm happy to have Urlacher as one of my individuals. They've got no running game (crappy o-line) and no passing game (crappy WRs). If they can contain the Favre/Franks Duo, they win hard.
Holt is by bonafide WR. He's an amazing player with the ability to pick up YAC. Also, he's got a good QB in Bulger.
Moss should do well. With the starting job up in the air in oakland, they should be looking to throw the ball deep, and you can guarentee that He'll be there
Heap will finish 3rd TE-wise behind Crumpler and Gates. Shockey witll give him a run for his money.
I'm not sure about Westbrook. He reminds me a lot of marshall Faulk, and that means he's a dynamic threat in both the rushing and receiving games. With Phili lacking a solid receiver (although they just signed stallworth), they will throw to Westbrook, and Andy reid already said that they want to establish a good rushing attack as well this year. I'll stick with him (depending on his injury, obv.)
They won't even have to blitz. 5 in the box will still get past that makeshift O-line.
I just don't trust Brooks/Tuiasosopo/Wolters/Jeff George (are you friggin' kidding me) to get him the ball. Hell, they couldn't get Moss the ball last year with Collins.
I'm a huge fan of Gates, BUT with a "barely wet behind the ears" QB I just can't bring myself to draft him high. On the other hand, TE's are a new QB's best friend (outlet WR) so I guess he's kinda got me "on top of the fence," so to speak. I like Crumpler too, but the Falcons have their best QB riding the pine. So far Vick hasn't proved himself enough to be worth anything IMO. Shockey, if healthy, will have a career year.
I'll have to politely disagree. Westbrook is decent, but he has almost 0 durability and couldn't tie Faulks shoes on his best day. He's a good 3 back....but I'd still start the other 2 in most situations.
I just spammed(if you wanna call it that) 3 other MTG sites to try and get enough people for a few leagues. If anyone posts anywhere other than here, Wizards.com or TCGplayer.com feel free to ask around.
Regarding Moonlight Bargain: I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this card. It's cc is rather expensive, meaning you need 7-9 mana to be able to counter something after casting. It also costs you life which this deck has little of to spare thanks to the mana base. I'd be hoping for a Fact or Fiction/Gifts "esque" card in TS. Or something to the effect of a more appropriately costed Entomb.
Regarding Delerium Skeins: TY. You took the words right outta my mouth.
Regarding Gifts: If you aren't running it because of the impempending rotation, that's understandable. However, you didn't realize that when you cast Gifts you don't HAVE to fetch 4 cards. Just fetch Haakon and whatever knight you need at the time & FAIL TO FIND the other two.:D
Regarding Haakon Flare: I also agree here. Leave the angels and signets at the door plz.
But keep in mind Solar Flare is also trying to accelerate into Angel of Despair, Kokusho, Yosei, Ink-Eyes, Meloku, etc. I don't know that 3 Persecute and a playset of Wrath's warrent the use of signets, & definately not 5-6 of them like most Flare builds are running. Furthermore, what on earth would you cut from the deck to fit them in?
Coiled Flame: He's using Bargain as another way to get Haakon/Knights into the graveyard.
Just keep posting:) People will just have to learn to declare which version of Haakon they're are playing and which they're making suggestions for. I personally think the control version is stronger, but that doesn't neccessarily mean Aggro Haakon is any less viable.
You must keep in mind my version only runs 13 creatures, therefore making Skeins more dangerous to me. I don't need BB turn 2 either. I'd much rather play them from my grave later on and control the first several turns of a match. Not to mention there's more need for pro white than pro black in the current meta IMO. Even running just 1 is fine so long as you can gifts for it. But your not playing Gifts so you'll probably need them in multiples. I think you misunderstood my point with Imp. As a cretaure that trades 1 for one with almost any creatures in the format he's spectacular for control. But as with my opinion of Skeins, Imp's hefty dredge cost scares me in a deck that wants to stay in control. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I should have explained myself a little better.
Onoez: The whole decklist looks kinda like he was drafting doesn't it. I would probably run a 4th Gifts if I were Karsten. Confindant can be run in control, although I'd probably just run Arena instead. However, in Mori's Structrure n Force, his MD is VERY blue heavy so supporting arena would have been more difficult. His curve was also pretty low, so it this case, Confidant was probably the better choice.
Solace: Either way your going to need both BB and WW so running both Pump Knights shouldn't be an issue unless your decision is strictly meta based. Delerium Skeins will only work in Aggro Haakon. I'm not about to start tossing my decks control elements as it will end up doing more damage than good. Same with Stinkweed Imp. Very solid in aggro versions, kinda meh in control.
Amadi: 2-3 sigents is MUCH better than 4-6. But replacing them with Skeins in a control deck is bad. Why MD a card that's BAD for control? I'd look elsewhere. There are plenty of other cards you could use instead.
My vote goes to Peace of Mind......It gains you life which is hella good against aggro, it allows for extra ways to get Haakon into the yard, and as it happened in a match I was playing the other night vs Azorius Aggro, it allowed me to discard a Rune Snag and then play another Rune Snag, forcing my opponent to pay 4, which he could not.
While bouncelands may help to get Haakon out early, they are really rough on the mana base (which is unstable at times as is). Not too mention they screw over your best strategy vs aggro which is to take care of threats as quick as possible.
BTW, why waste MD slots on signets.....you're not trying to accel into any fat.....the only thing it might be nice for is T3 Persecute or Wrath of God. Wasting 5 slots to accel into 4-6 cards is a bad idea IMO.
Wrath of God definately, but I don't see gravepact working for a few reasons. 1) BBB in cost 2) gravepact is better served in decks with 20 + creatures. The B/W versions could support it, but mine could not for both the resons I listed above. I would give Stinkweed Imp the nod over Grave Pact personally.
Pham: Peace of Mind most definately needs to be in this deck either MD or SB vs aggro which are the decks tougher matchups. He's not just there to toss Haakon (although PoM does up the spells to get Haakon into the yard to 8 meaning you should see one in you first few draws). Why wouldn't you want to toss each knight you draw to gain 3 opponents EOT and the play him from the graveyard the following turn. You should really test it out. It's won me more aggro matches than Wrath of God. I think that says a lot.
Onoez: Um, every aggro deck not named Zoo should be running Jitte somewhere........I thought that was somewhat of a "given." I was ruinning it for a while in the SB, then asked myself why run it only for other jitte when I can run Needle and take care of Jitte as well as an array of other cards. Secondly, your right, Gifts and Research don't belong in an aggro deck......and mine isn't an aggro deck. However, that being said, the B/W/u version has better matchups vs both aggro AND control. The only exception to that would be the Magnivore matchup.
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Godless Shrine
4x Watery Grave
1x Underground River
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Caves of Koilos
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Island
Creatures (13)
4x Court Hussar
3x Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
2x White Shield Crusader
2x Stromgald Crusader
2x Paladin en-Vec
4x Rune Snag
4x Remand
4x Wrath of God
4x Compulsive Research
3x Mortify
2x Gifts Ungiven
2x Peace of Mind
2x Perilous Research
3x Condemn
3x Deathmark
3x Pithing Needle
4x Castigate
2x Persecute/Cranial Extraction/Nightmare Void
The most recent change I've made was moving the 2x Persecute to SB since it tends to be a subpar card when 1) playing aggro & 2) playing without signets/some form of acceleration. As I stated above, the deck already slaps control around, so the few excess cards for control matchup are better off in SB. I replaced them with Perilous Research for answer digging or getting an extra something out of dying chump blockers. I've only managed time for a handful of matches since the change but So far it seems preety good. Only noticable drawback is getting too much blue in your opening hand. Peace of Mind is one of my favorite cards in this deck. It can single handedly win aggro matchups. If I don't end up deciding on Perilous, then I'll probably add a third as well as a third Gifts. But with all the card draw in this deck, I don't want to be drawing into cards I don't need. Bounce lands are bad IMO because of heavy BB/WW requirement. I don't want to take mana burn or force myself to play something to avoid the burn, when it's an unneccesary play.
Ashes forces you to play cards the deck doesn't need, i.e. Confidant. Only the B/W versions should be considering either. They should also be using Delerium Skeins (which I think is horrible) or Peace of Mind (my personal preference). They may also consider dredge cards like Nightmare Void and Stinkweed Imp to help get Haakon in the yard due to the lack of Compulsive/Gifts. They function as aggro decks though, whereas mine runs much more like Solar Flare.
Definately looking forward to the TS Knights. Terramorphic Expanse will definately be included when they're available. Might even smooth out the manabase enought to support the Pentarch's WWW cc.
I dunno if it was about Moss not getting it done as it was the "baggage" that went along with (not blocking, not running routes, etc). Daunte was a big loss. The only reason his performance was sub par the few games he played IMO was because of the lack of Moss. Also, the gameplan, playbook, etc had to be redone and he was thrown into a new system with garbage for WR's, no running game, and a sub-par D(though it was better than it had been in years previous & the biggest reason they won't win a championship anytime soon). Blame for his occasional fumblitis however, should be placed squarely on his own shoulders. Okay, racist may have been too strong a word. A lot of what I was referring to was very "tongue n cheek". I just didn't like the way he handled the whole Lake "Slap my A**" situation as well as some of the comments made in a few random press conferences . I wish for the life of me I could quote him on some of it. I'll have to google it later this evening when I have a few extra minutes.
AS a Vikings fan, you should be pissed at your racist owner. He got rid of both Moss and Culpepper.
They won't even have to blitz. 5 in the box will still get past that makeshift O-line.
I just don't trust Brooks/Tuiasosopo/Wolters/Jeff George (are you friggin' kidding me) to get him the ball. Hell, they couldn't get Moss the ball last year with Collins.
I'm a huge fan of Gates, BUT with a "barely wet behind the ears" QB I just can't bring myself to draft him high. On the other hand, TE's are a new QB's best friend (outlet WR) so I guess he's kinda got me "on top of the fence," so to speak. I like Crumpler too, but the Falcons have their best QB riding the pine. So far Vick hasn't proved himself enough to be worth anything IMO. Shockey, if healthy, will have a career year.
I'll have to politely disagree. Westbrook is decent, but he has almost 0 durability and couldn't tie Faulks shoes on his best day. He's a good 3 back....but I'd still start the other 2 in most situations.
I just spammed(if you wanna call it that) 3 other MTG sites to try and get enough people for a few leagues. If anyone posts anywhere other than here, Wizards.com or TCGplayer.com feel free to ask around.