I really like this deck, but isn't UB better for this type of strategy than UR? We stil have 3 3CMC LD spells (Choking Sands, Icequake and Rancid Earth) and a more flexible 4 CMC LD without flashback (Befoul), but we have a very good finisher Gurmag Angler.
The only thing I think I'll miss giving red up is Eletromancer, but Snuff Out seems to be a good card in this deck because you can kill stuff and a land at the same turn early on. You can still do dirty stuff with bounce + archeomancer with Withdraw instead of Jilt and we can pack some AOE to deal with small creatures with Crypt Rats. Chittering Rats also seems to be a good option and Innocent Blood is very good early on or if they can't flood the board.
Another option that I was thinking in a UG list. The LD cards are more expensive, but we have a ton of ramp with Fertile Ground and Utopia Sprawl, so we can break them turn 2/3. We also get Coiling Oracle and he is awesome. Maybe with this extra mana we can make Rhystic Deluge a disgusting card, but I like the idea of the UR or UB versions a little bit more.
Hey guys, I'm a long time lurker of this thread and now i'm in process to build my own version
So, what are your opinion on the new goblin spoiled Goblin Dark-Dwellers? He is expansive, but the body is good and it can cast anything of the deck... If it hits a command or a blightning into 2 discards it generates a disgusting amount of value... But even in other scenarios he could get some value eating something with a bolt/terminate...
I think the RB version is better against the currently tier 1 decks, since it gives a much nicer g1 against affinity and infect with the removals and command. And I think Kozilek's Return is just awesome. But I agree that green gives it more consistency and it have better SB and late game, and since my store have a slower and really crazy metagame, I'll stick to green right now.
About the tron match up. If we can make it better with reasonable effort, I think it's worth it. But personally, I'd rather accept it's a bad match up than hurt my manabase and some part of my SB to make this match up a little less worse.
About the green variant, what do you guys think of World Breaker that is coming on oath? It is extremely slow against affinity, but against tron and other controls match ups it might be good. The exile dodges counter and the recursion might be good late game. It's not the card of our dreams, but I think its better than Conduit of Ruin (I really don't like it very much....).
What is your opinion on the number of discards? I think is probably correct to run some, but since they are terrible top decks, and the deck goes often for this route, I'm in doubt on the number... How have it been for you guys?
I think this version is much better then the old one. The Catacombs were there to cast dismember without paying life, since I think at least 2-3 ways to deal permanently with some creatures/man lands and pro blue creatures is good. And they were coming into play untapped almost every time because of the amount of basic lands.
The evacuation is something that need some testing, but I think military intelligence or Aetherize would be better in your list. Some removal is also good in almost every match up. If you don't want the splash for black to add some removal, you could run pongify. It kills man lands and problematic creatures. And with the amount of bounce you run, you can deal easily with the token. Maybe you could find some place for some serum visions too.
If you want some reach, I think one or two Scion of Oona mainboard would do a better job than the club, since it protect your faeries too. And the flash is super important, since you can hold mana for the counter and/or react for some removal with it (remember that the ninja, the quickling and the mistbind do NOT target, so you can still use them even with shroud).
I think 22 lands is too much too. You have a bunch of card draw (principally if you run the intelligence and some serum visions) so you can keep finding your land drops consistently. Try 20 and see how it goes.
So, I have a pauper deck very similar to this list. By my experience, bounce is good in this type of deck, but never go full bounce. By now, you have 17 self bounces without considering Mistbind Clique as a bouncer and counting with the ninjas. Another thing you need to remember, bouncing creatures in general don't give you CA. You NEED card draw, or your going to run out fuel. In your list the only draw you have are the 3 ninjas. You could try Curiosity, Military Intelligence or Mask of Memory and see how it goes for you.
About the Surveilling Sprite, I think your curve 2 is already overloaded. You don't need another turn 2 play, and I think this is the weakest of the deck.
Mistbind Clique is awesome, but I don't know if you can afford 4 5 mana creatures with this deck. With that said, I would run something like this (since I don't know your budget, I tried to keep it under U$100,00):
Another idea for the drake (very useful in pauper) is the spire golem. Ver respectable body for its cost. I cut the Disrupting Shoal from the build although I think it's awesome here because of the cost, but you could try to fit some if you want.
You can change the counters too, but I think you shoul run 8-10. More than that gets too clunky sometimes. If you can afford Remand (or Crypt Command) they are also awesome because of the cantrip effect.
With your last build, since the curve is lower, isn't worth to use Violent Outburst instead of Captured Sunlight? Okay, I get that 4 life is good, but with Violent Outburst the only cascade you would lose is the Centaur Healer and you could cast it at instant speed. If you go for a more token/bounce oriented build, with the Mogg War Marshal it could even give your deck some reach by pumping your tokens.
And between Marauders and the Attended Knight, I really think the Knight is better for a bounce build, since the ETB effect is better against aggro (since it gives you more blockers) and against removal.
I think the decks you can build with this ideas are extremely fun and they can answer well a bunch of different things. The list I'm playing based on this thread is currently this:
By testing, Circle of Protection: Red has been underwhelming, cuz the sunbeam spellbomb gain you enough life already, oppening more slots to answer what you are afraid of.
Another idea is to use red instead of black making it more aggressive. With red we get Galvanic Blast, bolt, Pyrite Spellbomb and some other cool things, but I haven't tested it yet.
I really liked your shell and I wanna try it, so I'm using it as a base. I've cut my weirds because I believe that with my pinger, burn and my post board Swirling Sandstorm I have enough to deal with aggro, principally white weenie.
The Vithian Stinger is something I think has a nice potential so I'll try it, but maybe I'll remove it latter if it is under performing.
I've put 2 Jilts in my sideboard. With the amount of delves growing bounce is really a good option. If I notice that I'm not having a lot of targets to hit with it's kicker I'll fit 2 Into the Roil instead, but, for now, I'll keep it. (always wanted to use them xD)
I'm a little bit afraid of running 4 uncolored lands at my manabase. I'll test it for now and maybe I make some tweaks at the next few weeks.
So, I have a U/R delver deck and was tired of getting mirror match ups, so I changed it a bit (principally the creature base) to make it more focused on grinding the game longer instead playing a tempo oriented game..
My plan with the glasskite was to make it work as a blue guardian of the guildpact, as a resilient beater, or at least, a 2 for 1. But I'm really in doubt of how it would work sincerely, since I would need to burn the enemies delvers away first... So maybe you're right. I'll take it off at the moment, but I want to test it latter as a finisher...
I was afraid of running a playset of counterspells because of the UU cost, but I'll try it... And I really like the Prohibt, so maybe I'll take the other remove soul to fit a third in... But I don't think the 2 specific counters (exclude + remove soul) will be a problem since I play against a lot of creature based decks.
I really wanted to fit a playset of ponder too, but I got in doubt of what to take off... I have very good experience using the weirds against weenies... And the Razorfin Hunters are something that I want to try... I never used them, but it seems powerful at killing little things (AKA Faeries, Elves, Squadron Hawks and some other annoying stuff), complementing my burn to deal with bigger creatures and is a reliable way to dodge deserts so for now, I'm keeping all 3 of them...
So, I'm building a izzet control list to play in my local store. The meta here is full of Delvers, white weenies, elves and some affinity decks.. Once in a while I find someone playing cawblade or burn.
So, I really liked your deck. With some tests my first impression was that your list spent a ton of life to cantrip but didnt finished the game fast enough/was extremely susceptible to removal to be worth to lose that amount of health that fast. Trying to solve both of these problems, I've cut those free cantrips to fit some counters, more lands and some Commune with the Gods, as it's basically draw a card + dark ritual for your delve cards.
Another problem is that you need a fast three colored deck. This is fine when you have access to good dual mana. The problem is that we don't have it in pauper. I've tried to put the minimum amount of dual lands to add consistence while keeping it fast, but I'm not sure about the numbers yet. I'll probably add one or two dual manas, but it needs some testing.
Another possibility for the deck to make it more consistent manawise and more resilient against removal is to make it UB instead of BUG, adding Shambling Attendants, Ghoulcaller's Chant and some more controlish U/B cards, but I haven't tested it myself.
Anyway, fun deck. I'll keep working on it and see if I can get more satisfying results
Hmm. After your report I think I like the infiltrator more. I actually didn't notice that you could tutor Kitesail too.
If I had to cut something from your list I would probably start cutting some enablers. Although I like all of them, I think 12 is overkill. And you could set up more ninjas with the Cavern Harpy and the Dimir Infiltrator. The problem is that I don't know which one I wanna cut.
With Kitesail, I think Artful Dodge is not extremely necessary anymore, but I think it's a nice card to guarantee resolved ninjas hits and ninjutsus, so I REALLY want to put 2 on the list.
I really don't wanna to cut more removals from the list, and I like the number of counters to protect our little ninjas. This leaves me with just 3 cards to cut: Cavern Harpy, Dimir Infiltrator and Vulshok Morningstar. With this said, I'm taking out one Cavern Harpy. I like the card, but I think the flexibility of the infiltrator and the finishing power of the Morningstar are more important.
(Those enablers need testing. I didn't wanted to cut Cloud of Faeries because I like the idea of putting a creature in play while letting mana open to protect it the turn after (and it makes Spellstutter Sprite more powerful) but Vault Skirge fits the deck so well! I think we need more data and more games to really define the chosen ones)
I had an old tempo ninja deck and I used to love it! I think Distortion Strike is awesome an card for the list. It provides evasion and some damage while letting your mana open to use Mana Leak, Agony Warp (love this card), Doom Blade and other cool stuff, as you don't need to pay the ninjutsu cost. Another option could be Artful Dodge. Making 2 evasive ninjas at the same turn or having it "stored" for future turns is awesome.
I really like Thalakos Seer, but i don't think the deck can afford to pay UU early on. As my intention with this deck is not play for the long run, I wouldn't use it. Instead, I would run free creatures like Cloud of Faeries and Ornithopter (as you did in your last list).
A Faerie-less version is a possibility, but I don't think you should cut Cloud of Faeries (only if playing against tons of fliers). Running 8 Tapped lands makes the deck slower. Those "free" evasive creatures are a good way to make it a little faster.
I also think you should consider a full set of Mistblade Shinobi. It's a very nasty card paired with Distortion Strike and Artful Dodge. The effect is basically the same of vapor snag, but I like the flexibility of unsummoning 2 creatures back with the same card.
Skullsnatcher is an awesome card in certain matchups, but sometime is useless. I think it should be sideboarded.
With everything said, I would run something like this:
Maybe the number of supportive cards are going down for one or two Dimir Infiltrators and some Kitesails. Although I like first one, I think using him as a tutor is a very slow play, but maybe is worth it. The second one is awesome to give evasion, but I think the Artful Dodges and the removals are enough to make our ninjas hit.
NOTE: English isn't my first language. Sorry for any mistake x.x
The only thing I think I'll miss giving red up is Eletromancer, but Snuff Out seems to be a good card in this deck because you can kill stuff and a land at the same turn early on. You can still do dirty stuff with bounce + archeomancer with Withdraw instead of Jilt and we can pack some AOE to deal with small creatures with Crypt Rats. Chittering Rats also seems to be a good option and Innocent Blood is very good early on or if they can't flood the board.
Another option that I was thinking in a UG list. The LD cards are more expensive, but we have a ton of ramp with Fertile Ground and Utopia Sprawl, so we can break them turn 2/3. We also get Coiling Oracle and he is awesome. Maybe with this extra mana we can make Rhystic Deluge a disgusting card, but I like the idea of the UR or UB versions a little bit more.
So, what are your opinion on the new goblin spoiled Goblin Dark-Dwellers? He is expansive, but the body is good and it can cast anything of the deck... If it hits a command or a blightning into 2 discards it generates a disgusting amount of value... But even in other scenarios he could get some value eating something with a bolt/terminate...
About the tron match up. If we can make it better with reasonable effort, I think it's worth it. But personally, I'd rather accept it's a bad match up than hurt my manabase and some part of my SB to make this match up a little less worse.
About the green variant, what do you guys think of World Breaker that is coming on oath? It is extremely slow against affinity, but against tron and other controls match ups it might be good. The exile dodges counter and the recursion might be good late game. It's not the card of our dreams, but I think its better than Conduit of Ruin (I really don't like it very much....).
What is your opinion on the number of discards? I think is probably correct to run some, but since they are terrible top decks, and the deck goes often for this route, I'm in doubt on the number... How have it been for you guys?
The evacuation is something that need some testing, but I think military intelligence or Aetherize would be better in your list. Some removal is also good in almost every match up. If you don't want the splash for black to add some removal, you could run pongify. It kills man lands and problematic creatures. And with the amount of bounce you run, you can deal easily with the token. Maybe you could find some place for some serum visions too.
If you want some reach, I think one or two Scion of Oona mainboard would do a better job than the club, since it protect your faeries too. And the flash is super important, since you can hold mana for the counter and/or react for some removal with it (remember that the ninja, the quickling and the mistbind do NOT target, so you can still use them even with shroud).
I think 22 lands is too much too. You have a bunch of card draw (principally if you run the intelligence and some serum visions) so you can keep finding your land drops consistently. Try 20 and see how it goes.
About the Surveilling Sprite, I think your curve 2 is already overloaded. You don't need another turn 2 play, and I think this is the weakest of the deck.
Mistbind Clique is awesome, but I don't know if you can afford 4 5 mana creatures with this deck. With that said, I would run something like this (since I don't know your budget, I tried to keep it under U$100,00):
4x Faerie Miscreant
3x Mistbind Clique
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3x Quickling
2x Scion of Oona
4x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Stitched Drake
4x Zephyr Sprite
2x Boomerang
3x Dismember
3x Familiar's Ruse
2x Peel from Reality
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
4x Drowned Catacomb
11x Island
2x Mutavault
1x Swamp
Enchantment (3)
3x Military Intelligence
Another idea for the drake (very useful in pauper) is the spire golem. Ver respectable body for its cost. I cut the Disrupting Shoal from the build although I think it's awesome here because of the cost, but you could try to fit some if you want.
You can change the counters too, but I think you shoul run 8-10. More than that gets too clunky sometimes. If you can afford Remand (or Crypt Command) they are also awesome because of the cantrip effect.
And between Marauders and the Attended Knight, I really think the Knight is better for a bounce build, since the ETB effect is better against aggro (since it gives you more blockers) and against removal.
I think the decks you can build with this ideas are extremely fun and they can answer well a bunch of different things. The list I'm playing based on this thread is currently this:
2x Aether Spellbomb
1x Blazing Torch
1x Copper Carapace
2x Executioner's Capsule
1x Flayer Husk
1x Necrogen Spellbomb
2x Origin Spellbomb
1x Sunbeam Spellbomb
1x Viridian Longbow
Creature (17)
3x Auriok Sunchaser
1x Court Homunculus
4x Leonin Squire
1x Mulldrifter
4x Sanctum Gargoyle
4x Trinket Mage
4x Ancient Den
2x Desert
1x Dismal Backwater
1x Island
3x Plains
2x Scoured Barrens
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Tranquil Cove
4x Vault of Whispers
Sorcery (8)
2x Mine Excavation
2x Remember the Fallen
4x Thoughtcast
2x Circle of Protection: Black
3x Circle of Protection: Green
3x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Dispeller's Capsule
1x Feldon's Cane
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Shrivel
1x Sylvok Lifestaff
By testing, Circle of Protection: Red has been underwhelming, cuz the sunbeam spellbomb gain you enough life already, oppening more slots to answer what you are afraid of.
Another idea is to use red instead of black making it more aggressive. With red we get Galvanic Blast, bolt, Pyrite Spellbomb and some other cool things, but I haven't tested it yet.
Thanks for the comments. So, my current list is:
4x Counterspell
1x Exclude
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Oona's Grace
2x Prohibit
1x Remove Soul
1x Staggershock
2x Twin Bolt
Creature (11)
4x Mulldrifter
3x Sea Gate Oracle
2x Shimmering Glasskite
2x Vithian Stinger
2x Desert
8x Island
1x Izzet Boilerworks
4x Mountain
2x Radiant Fountain
4x Swiftwater Cliffs
Sorcery (11)
1x Deep Analysis
2x Firebolt
4x Flame Slash
4x Ponder
Enchantment (1)
1x Curse of Chains
1x Curse of Chains
2x Curse of the Bloody Tome
2x Electrickery
1x Essence Scatter
1x Feldon's Cane
3x Gorilla Shaman
2x Jilt
1x Remove Soul
2x Swirling Sandstorm
I really liked your shell and I wanna try it, so I'm using it as a base. I've cut my weirds because I believe that with my pinger, burn and my post board Swirling Sandstorm I have enough to deal with aggro, principally white weenie.
The Vithian Stinger is something I think has a nice potential so I'll try it, but maybe I'll remove it latter if it is under performing.
I've put 2 Jilts in my sideboard. With the amount of delves growing bounce is really a good option. If I notice that I'm not having a lot of targets to hit with it's kicker I'll fit 2 Into the Roil instead, but, for now, I'll keep it. (always wanted to use them xD)
I'm a little bit afraid of running 4 uncolored lands at my manabase. I'll test it for now and maybe I make some tweaks at the next few weeks.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Thanks for all the suggestions.. I'm gonna update my list and make some tests with it.
My plan with the glasskite was to make it work as a blue guardian of the guildpact, as a resilient beater, or at least, a 2 for 1. But I'm really in doubt of how it would work sincerely, since I would need to burn the enemies delvers away first... So maybe you're right. I'll take it off at the moment, but I want to test it latter as a finisher...
I was afraid of running a playset of counterspells because of the UU cost, but I'll try it... And I really like the Prohibt, so maybe I'll take the other remove soul to fit a third in... But I don't think the 2 specific counters (exclude + remove soul) will be a problem since I play against a lot of creature based decks.
I really wanted to fit a playset of ponder too, but I got in doubt of what to take off... I have very good experience using the weirds against weenies... And the Razorfin Hunters are something that I want to try... I never used them, but it seems powerful at killing little things (AKA Faeries, Elves, Squadron Hawks and some other annoying stuff), complementing my burn to deal with bigger creatures and is a reliable way to dodge deserts so for now, I'm keeping all 3 of them...
So, here is the new list...
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Counterspell
1x Exclude
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Oona's Grace
2x Prohibit
1x Remove Soul
1x Staggershock
2x Twin Bolt
Sorcery:
3x Flame Slash
3x Ponder
2x Curse of Chains
Lands:
2x Desert
1x Evolving Wilds
8x Island
2x Izzet Boilerworks
4x Mountain
4x Swiftwater Cliffs
Creatures:
3x Frostburn Weird
3x Mulldrifter
3x Razorfin Hunter
2x Sea Gate Oracle
2x Curse of Chains
2x Curse of the Bloody Tome
2x Electrickery
1x Essence Scatter
1x Feldon's Cane
1x Flame Jab
3x Gorilla Shaman
1x Remove Soul
2x Swirling Sandstorm
I couldn't find place for the 4th ponder x.x
What do you think? Any suggestion?
Thanks a lot for your help
So, I'm building a izzet control list to play in my local store. The meta here is full of Delvers, white weenies, elves and some affinity decks.. Once in a while I find someone playing cawblade or burn.
This is my list at the moment:
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Counterspell
1x Essence Scatter
1x Exclude
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Oona's Grace
2x Prohibit
1x Remove Soul
1x Staggershock
2x Twin Bolt
Sorcery:
4x Flame Slash
2x Curse of Chains
Lands:
2x Desert
1x Evolving Wilds
8x Island
2x Izzet Boilerworks
4x Mountain
4x Swiftwater Cliffs
Creatures:
3x Frostburn Weird
3x Mulldrifter
3x Razorfin Hunter
2x Sea Gate Oracle
2x Shimmering Glasskite
2x Curse of Chains
2x Curse of the Bloody Tome
2x Electrickery
1x Essence Scatter
1x Feldon's Cane
1x Flame Jab
3x Gorilla Shaman
1x Remove Soul
2x Swirling Sandstorm
So, What do you think? Any suggestion to make my list better principally against those match ups?
Thanks
Another problem is that you need a fast three colored deck. This is fine when you have access to good dual mana. The problem is that we don't have it in pauper. I've tried to put the minimum amount of dual lands to add consistence while keeping it fast, but I'm not sure about the numbers yet. I'll probably add one or two dual manas, but it needs some testing.
So, this is my list atm:
2x Dismal Backwater
2x Evolving Wilds
2x Forest
8x Island
2x Swamp
2x Terramorphic Expanse
2x Thornwood Falls
2x Careful Study
3x Commune with the Gods
2x Grim Discovery
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise
Artifact (4)
4x Lotus Petal
3x Mana Leak
4x Mental Note
1x Negate
4x Thought Scour
Creature (10)
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Hooting Mandrills
4x Sultai Scavenger
Another possibility for the deck to make it more consistent manawise and more resilient against removal is to make it UB instead of BUG, adding Shambling Attendants, Ghoulcaller's Chant and some more controlish U/B cards, but I haven't tested it myself.
Anyway, fun deck. I'll keep working on it and see if I can get more satisfying results
If I had to cut something from your list I would probably start cutting some enablers. Although I like all of them, I think 12 is overkill. And you could set up more ninjas with the Cavern Harpy and the Dimir Infiltrator. The problem is that I don't know which one I wanna cut.
With Kitesail, I think Artful Dodge is not extremely necessary anymore, but I think it's a nice card to guarantee resolved ninjas hits and ninjutsus, so I REALLY want to put 2 on the list.
I really don't wanna to cut more removals from the list, and I like the number of counters to protect our little ninjas. This leaves me with just 3 cards to cut: Cavern Harpy, Dimir Infiltrator and Vulshok Morningstar. With this said, I'm taking out one Cavern Harpy. I like the card, but I think the flexibility of the infiltrator and the finishing power of the Morningstar are more important.
So this is my current list after your report:
4 Ornithopter
4 Cloud of Faeries
Ninjas (9)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Mistblade Shinobi
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
Support (23)
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Kitesail
1 Vulshok Morningstar
3 Doom Blade
2 Disfigure
2 Mana Leak
3 Preordain
2 Artful Dodge
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Dimir Guildgate
8 Island
4 Swamp
(Those enablers need testing. I didn't wanted to cut Cloud of Faeries because I like the idea of putting a creature in play while letting mana open to protect it the turn after (and it makes Spellstutter Sprite more powerful) but Vault Skirge fits the deck so well! I think we need more data and more games to really define the chosen ones)
I really like Thalakos Seer, but i don't think the deck can afford to pay UU early on. As my intention with this deck is not play for the long run, I wouldn't use it. Instead, I would run free creatures like Cloud of Faeries and Ornithopter (as you did in your last list).
A Faerie-less version is a possibility, but I don't think you should cut Cloud of Faeries (only if playing against tons of fliers). Running 8 Tapped lands makes the deck slower. Those "free" evasive creatures are a good way to make it a little faster.
I also think you should consider a full set of Mistblade Shinobi. It's a very nasty card paired with Distortion Strike and Artful Dodge. The effect is basically the same of vapor snag, but I like the flexibility of unsummoning 2 creatures back with the same card.
Skullsnatcher is an awesome card in certain matchups, but sometime is useless. I think it should be sideboarded.
With everything said, I would run something like this:
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Ornithopter
Ninjas (10)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Mistblade Shinobi
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
4 Shrieking Drake
Supportboys (18)
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Doom Blade
4 Mana Leak
3 Artful Dodge
2 Disfigure
2 Agony Warp
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Dimir Guildgate
8 Island
4 Swamp
Total:
20 Land cards
26 Creature cards
11 Instant cards
3 Sorcery cards
The Spellstutter Sprites are there just to make our ninjas immune to Lightning Bolt, Disfigure and other cheap removals (principally if sided with Cloud of Faeries) while making some set ups for the ninja's strikes.
Maybe the number of supportive cards are going down for one or two Dimir Infiltrators and some Kitesails. Although I like first one, I think using him as a tutor is a very slow play, but maybe is worth it. The second one is awesome to give evasion, but I think the Artful Dodges and the removals are enough to make our ninjas hit.
NOTE: English isn't my first language. Sorry for any mistake x.x