TURN 7 KILLS
Firedrinker Satyr
Koth (Ramped) - Beatdown or Ult
Pia and Kiran Nalaar (Ramped)
Stormbreath Dragon (Ramped)
TURN 10 KILLS
A lonely Goblin Guide
For simplicity's sake, I'm assuming hitting every land drop for the guys that take mana to pump up. "Ramped" means played a turn early via SSG or Mind Stone. Also that this is in a vacuum with no other spells being cast. Obviously there are many permutations where we can speed things up by Bolting their face with spare mana, or playing another threat on top of what's there.
Because many of the above options rely on land drops or ramp, that puts Goblin Rabblemaster as the most practical choice for ease of use and consistency.
If I made a mistake or people want to see other options laid out visually, let me know.
As far as arguments against it, I'll explain my reservations after the 10 or so matches I've tested with it. It introduces moving parts into the picture and it's a dead card in a lot of situations. Your list of cards that interact with it isn't as long as you think. P&K usually die on sight, so you can't count on them for Crew 3, and you have to admit that crewing it with a dragon is a stretch. Perhaps more importantly is that sacrificing a loyalty counter from Koth to crew it isn't a trivial cost. His ult comes so quickly that in my opinion it's a big decision whether you should pop one for an unguaranteed 4 damage, or hold out another turn or two for the game-winning move.
However as I wrote earlier, the times it worked, it worked really well. I liked using it with Scourge and Chandra for sure. I'll test it some more. I'm willing to be convinced of it, since I would love to find a place for the card in Modern.
I want to love it, but so far it isn't doing a whole lot, unfortunately. T2 Heart, T3 Scourge (swing for 4), T4 Koth, plus, crew with loyalty (swing for 11) is a potentially amazing line, but it feels like Christmas land.
It feels like a dead card at least half the time, if not more. Out of maybe 10ish matches with it, it won me the game once, ate removal 2-3 times on activation, and the rest of the time sat there or wasn't worth casting.
Curious how many you guys would use and what to surround it with. I've been testing with 2 Hearts, 4 Koth, 3 Chandra.
I'd contribute to a larger doc. I've been keeping track of my own local tourney results (currently 38-8) and would be happy to share. Unfortunately I haven't been keeping track of G1/2/3 results individually, but I can start doing that. Also I only just found out about that primer, but it's excellent. Very nice work to those involved.
I'm still of the "wait and see" approach when it comes to any big changes. Push is definitely a nuisance, but I won with Koth Ult even through Push, Snap Push the other day on Xmage. Getting Stone Rained hurts, but ultimately it only delays the Koth train, not deal with it. Also, just about every deck looking to play Push gets hosed by Blood Moon. My plan is to just put the 4th Blood Moon main and go up to 4 Molten Rain SB to maximize our punish game (and stay on top of Tron) rather than rebuild around one spell.
Haven't personally tried out the Double Dragon build, but now seems like a great time to give it a shot.
Played a bunch of casual matches tonight against a friend who just got into U Tron... what a beating. I think I went 1-6 or so, half and half between pre and post board games. Gx Tron feels like a decent matchup by comparison.
Definitely opened my eyes to the deck as I've only seen it in person once before. In cases like this where a matchup is beyond terrible, do we even worry about it? Or just take the loss if we happen to run into it and move on?
To be fair, "dies to Bolt/Push" isn't always a reason to avoid using a card. We're not going to drop Koth because the animated mountains die to Push, for example. It's just something to be aware of.
Against Jund, just try to keep a lot of threats in your opening hand. Their first discard spell has to take your Blood Moon, so it protects the Mind Stone > turn 3 Koth play which is amazing in response to a turn 3 Liliana. If they have more discard, the game quickly becomes a top deck war, and we have a ton of late game threats. Hold your Relics until absolutely necessary to keep Goyf/Scooze under control.
I'm not sure about Kari Zev in particular, but the idea of having a useful creature drop to fill in the gap between threats is interesting and something I've thought about as well. I'm not usually dying to do something on turn 2, but I see what you mean when you look at the gap in the mana curve.
Stormblood seems too hard to turn on. Ash Zealot is interesting, but a potential nonbo with our Relics.
I've been meaning to test out Lightning Berserker. The combination of the dash ability and firebreathing has some interesting implications in my opinion:
- Dash allows her to not interfere with our sweepers and makes her immune to sorcery speed removal
- 1 drop, so any removal the opponent uses is equal/favorable for us
- Firebreathing allows flexibility to jump in and swing, and only commit mana after blockers are declared. Also possible to threaten favorable trades against larger creatures when left on defense with mana up
- decent top deck late game as a mana dump
I definitely wouldn't say the deck "needs" a creature like this, but I've been in situations where it could have been nice.
That all said, I still think Mind Stone is the perfect turn 2 play when possible. If not, playing a 2 mana removal spell or leaving mana up for Bolt/Skred is pretty valid.
I think Mina and Denn work nicely in a budget list. They survive Bolt and have a kind of useful ability, so why not? I've had fun with Huntmaster in that slot too.
Agreed that Kessig Wolf Run is better for you here. I also like Treetop Village in RG since it's a useful threat (and on theme with your trample build) but it's much easier to recycle with Loam when it dies.
In a creature-centric RG list, you might be able to get some mileage out of Pulse of Murasa to pull back your creatures or to recycle your Ghor-Clans. I would definitely run Countryside Crusher in your type of build - who doesn't want to give him trample?
Coco is definitely interesting to play with. You can get some pretty insane plays like Coco into double Ajani with 2x Sisters on the board for surprise 6/6s. It also helps you find the pieces you're looking for, or deals 4 damage after Purphoros is down.
The issue is that you will sometimes put Purphoros, Genesis Chamber, or removal on the bottom of your library when you need them.
It's a tough balance but I think it's worth trying out, especially if you have Hierarchs to ramp it out. Green also gives access to fun stuff like Champion of Lambholt which can be absolutely insane with Norin/Genesis Chamber combo.
About the SCG top 8, I think the main deck Auriok and Return to the Ranks probably helped a lot. Solid call. But let's be honest, there was definitely some luck involved with dodging Tron and Infect. ;p
Out of your list, Dutch, I would probably recommend Burn.
When trying to figure out a deck's weakness, look to its sideboard. There's a reason many Skred lists run 3-4 Dragon's Claw.
Skred is slow. Of course, being slow is fine as long as you're slowing your opponent down as well. Decks that don't need to interact much with the board and that don't use the graveyard should be favored.
My friend was going to borrow my Skred deck to play in Dallas but ended up going with Dredge... he's going to regret that. And I regret not flying down myself!
Processor Assault: I actually didn't know this card existed. Looks pretty interesting, but I worry about its consistency. Then again, Relic and Anger both serve to feed it. I feel like Roast is probably the safer choice, but I'll definitely try this out on Xmage before committing in paper.
Merfolk: PhysmRosmay, it seems like you're running the right answers, so it might come down to playstyle. Are you being greedy with your sweepers by waiting to try to maximize their value and taking too many hits? I tend to try to keep the board as clean as possible because they can spiral out of control fast. I would also side out maybe a P&K or two to bring in some Sudden Shocks if you have them.
The main disadvantages of Fulminator are that you don't do damage and can't hit basics.
Fulminator could theoretically offer more beats and a potentially useful chump block + sac. But you lose the ability to take out their basics when under Blood Moon, or redirect damage to a planeswalker when you destroy a non-basic. (Relevant, in my opinion.)
You can definitely try it out. I don't see it being significantly better or worse, though I feel like Molten Rain is a better fit.
If you're running extra sweepers, I'm a big fan of making 1-2 of them Volcanic Fallout. It will usually hit the things you want to die anyway, but it can be a blowout against decks that try to Vial/Coco guys in on your end step. They're trying to play around sorcery speed sweepers and never expect it.
I haven't played the Bant Eldrazi matchup outside of Xmage, but Volcanic Fallout has been relevant for me against both Merfolk and BW tokens. Save it to respond to a Vial activation, or cast it while intangible Virtue is on the stack. Or even just on their end step to clear the way for Koth on your next turn.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NxFkHvJ9ix4biCOcTxOezR0q_F4dTMg5gmK0kYJdOSs/edit?usp=sharing
Here's the short version: Firedrinker Satyr sucks. Many more practical options exist.
TURN 6 KILLS
Goblin Rabblemaster
Figure of Destiny
Koth (Ramped) x2 - Beatdown
Lightning Berserker
TURN 7 KILLS
Firedrinker Satyr
Koth (Ramped) - Beatdown or Ult
Pia and Kiran Nalaar (Ramped)
Stormbreath Dragon (Ramped)
TURN 10 KILLS
A lonely Goblin Guide
For simplicity's sake, I'm assuming hitting every land drop for the guys that take mana to pump up. "Ramped" means played a turn early via SSG or Mind Stone. Also that this is in a vacuum with no other spells being cast. Obviously there are many permutations where we can speed things up by Bolting their face with spare mana, or playing another threat on top of what's there.
Because many of the above options rely on land drops or ramp, that puts Goblin Rabblemaster as the most practical choice for ease of use and consistency.
If I made a mistake or people want to see other options laid out visually, let me know.
As far as arguments against it, I'll explain my reservations after the 10 or so matches I've tested with it. It introduces moving parts into the picture and it's a dead card in a lot of situations. Your list of cards that interact with it isn't as long as you think. P&K usually die on sight, so you can't count on them for Crew 3, and you have to admit that crewing it with a dragon is a stretch. Perhaps more importantly is that sacrificing a loyalty counter from Koth to crew it isn't a trivial cost. His ult comes so quickly that in my opinion it's a big decision whether you should pop one for an unguaranteed 4 damage, or hold out another turn or two for the game-winning move.
However as I wrote earlier, the times it worked, it worked really well. I liked using it with Scourge and Chandra for sure. I'll test it some more. I'm willing to be convinced of it, since I would love to find a place for the card in Modern.
I want to love it, but so far it isn't doing a whole lot, unfortunately. T2 Heart, T3 Scourge (swing for 4), T4 Koth, plus, crew with loyalty (swing for 11) is a potentially amazing line, but it feels like Christmas land.
It feels like a dead card at least half the time, if not more. Out of maybe 10ish matches with it, it won me the game once, ate removal 2-3 times on activation, and the rest of the time sat there or wasn't worth casting.
Curious how many you guys would use and what to surround it with. I've been testing with 2 Hearts, 4 Koth, 3 Chandra.
I'm still of the "wait and see" approach when it comes to any big changes. Push is definitely a nuisance, but I won with Koth Ult even through Push, Snap Push the other day on Xmage. Getting Stone Rained hurts, but ultimately it only delays the Koth train, not deal with it. Also, just about every deck looking to play Push gets hosed by Blood Moon. My plan is to just put the 4th Blood Moon main and go up to 4 Molten Rain SB to maximize our punish game (and stay on top of Tron) rather than rebuild around one spell.
Haven't personally tried out the Double Dragon build, but now seems like a great time to give it a shot.
Definitely opened my eyes to the deck as I've only seen it in person once before. In cases like this where a matchup is beyond terrible, do we even worry about it? Or just take the loss if we happen to run into it and move on?
Against Jund, just try to keep a lot of threats in your opening hand. Their first discard spell has to take your Blood Moon, so it protects the Mind Stone > turn 3 Koth play which is amazing in response to a turn 3 Liliana. If they have more discard, the game quickly becomes a top deck war, and we have a ton of late game threats. Hold your Relics until absolutely necessary to keep Goyf/Scooze under control.
Stormblood seems too hard to turn on. Ash Zealot is interesting, but a potential nonbo with our Relics.
I've been meaning to test out Lightning Berserker. The combination of the dash ability and firebreathing has some interesting implications in my opinion:
- Dash allows her to not interfere with our sweepers and makes her immune to sorcery speed removal
- 1 drop, so any removal the opponent uses is equal/favorable for us
- Firebreathing allows flexibility to jump in and swing, and only commit mana after blockers are declared. Also possible to threaten favorable trades against larger creatures when left on defense with mana up
- decent top deck late game as a mana dump
I definitely wouldn't say the deck "needs" a creature like this, but I've been in situations where it could have been nice.
That all said, I still think Mind Stone is the perfect turn 2 play when possible. If not, playing a 2 mana removal spell or leaving mana up for Bolt/Skred is pretty valid.
Agreed that Kessig Wolf Run is better for you here. I also like Treetop Village in RG since it's a useful threat (and on theme with your trample build) but it's much easier to recycle with Loam when it dies.
In a creature-centric RG list, you might be able to get some mileage out of Pulse of Murasa to pull back your creatures or to recycle your Ghor-Clans. I would definitely run Countryside Crusher in your type of build - who doesn't want to give him trample?
The issue is that you will sometimes put Purphoros, Genesis Chamber, or removal on the bottom of your library when you need them.
It's a tough balance but I think it's worth trying out, especially if you have Hierarchs to ramp it out. Green also gives access to fun stuff like Champion of Lambholt which can be absolutely insane with Norin/Genesis Chamber combo.
About the SCG top 8, I think the main deck Auriok and Return to the Ranks probably helped a lot. Solid call. But let's be honest, there was definitely some luck involved with dodging Tron and Infect. ;p
When trying to figure out a deck's weakness, look to its sideboard. There's a reason many Skred lists run 3-4 Dragon's Claw.
Skred is slow. Of course, being slow is fine as long as you're slowing your opponent down as well. Decks that don't need to interact much with the board and that don't use the graveyard should be favored.
www.twitch.tv/channelfireball
My friend was going to borrow my Skred deck to play in Dallas but ended up going with Dredge... he's going to regret that. And I regret not flying down myself!
Merfolk: PhysmRosmay, it seems like you're running the right answers, so it might come down to playstyle. Are you being greedy with your sweepers by waiting to try to maximize their value and taking too many hits? I tend to try to keep the board as clean as possible because they can spiral out of control fast. I would also side out maybe a P&K or two to bring in some Sudden Shocks if you have them.
Fulminator could theoretically offer more beats and a potentially useful chump block + sac. But you lose the ability to take out their basics when under Blood Moon, or redirect damage to a planeswalker when you destroy a non-basic. (Relevant, in my opinion.)
You can definitely try it out. I don't see it being significantly better or worse, though I feel like Molten Rain is a better fit.
I haven't played the Bant Eldrazi matchup outside of Xmage, but Volcanic Fallout has been relevant for me against both Merfolk and BW tokens. Save it to respond to a Vial activation, or cast it while intangible Virtue is on the stack. Or even just on their end step to clear the way for Koth on your next turn.